57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Sammuthegreat]

SS2Dante wrote...

Sammuthegreat wrote...

paxxton wrote...

captainbob8383 wrote...

It still makes no sense at all.
If the starChild's goal is to protect organic life from synthetics, then the most obvious solution is to tell Reapers to kill synthetics, not evolved organics.
Reapers could stay in the galaxy, act as protectors and kill dangerous synthetics.That's all.
Starchild logic makes zero sense.

What you are talking about is morality, not logic.

That's not even remotely true. It's perfectly logical that the reapers would have a far easier time of things if they just stepped in and killed the dangerous synthetics, instead of waiting around for 50000 years on the off-chance that some organics would create dangerous synthetics, while remaining silent and unknown all that time - which of course means that the organics will react badly when the Evil Squids of Death suddenly turn up out of the blue and start killing them.

Killing the dangerous synthetics when they appear cuts out the middle man, minimalises the reapers' own casualties and removes chance from the equation (i.e. the chance that organics won't have created dangerous synthetics by the time the reapers are ready to come a-culling).

Nah, I think it's safe to say that whatever the reapers' motives are, it isn't what StarBrat said. I for one would be happier if BioWare didn't give a reason than if they came up with something stupid.

As we pointed out, killing only the synthetics would make advanced organics aware of the Reapers, which creates an immense threat/burden. See Epyons answer to this

See, this kind of underlines what I said in the last line of my previous post. BioWare have dug themselves a bit of a hole with the whole "our motives are beyond your comprehension" thing - that basically means that whatever reason they do come up with will either be A) ludicrously simplistic, considering that it's supposedly "beyond human comprehension", or ludicrously over-complicated in theory, which will create numerous plot holes. Clearly neither side of the debate we're having has true merit, seeing as there are such obvious logical fallacies on either side.

This is why I'd personally like it if the reapers' motive was simply "we're the top dogs, and we like being top dogs, we don't want any races to threaten us, so we'll wipe them out systematically whenever they start to advance too far." But BioWare can't really do that now, since it's well within human comprehension, so would either make Sovereign's statement a lie (not outside the realms of possiblity, Sovereign might simply have been bluffing) or completely absurd.

THIS is why I'd be more than happy if BioWare left the reapers' motives a mystery.

[SS2Dante]

Mondamor wrote...

Sorry for the interruption
I have a question: Has anyone figured out which planet the Normandy crashed on?
With 2 very close Moons(Planets?), oxygen/breatheble air, djungle? Is there a correspondig one in the codex/galaxy map?
just curiuos
cheers

We're pretty certain it's Zorya, or at least has elements taken directly from Zorya. There's a picture a bit back in the thread shwoing the comparison.

Of course, with IT we think it's not a literal planet, but

[Falloutwarfare]

@SS2Dante although the geth arent a violent synthetic race as they let the quarians go after the morning war and only ever acted in self defence exept for the heratics which followed the reapers

[RaidShock]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Damn it! I always miss things from the codex. What are they embedded into?

Supposedly PDAs, armor, clothes, jewelry...they're everywhere.

http://masseffect.wi...wiki/Translator

Modifié par RaidShock, 20 avril 2012 - 03:19 .

[SS2Dante]

llbountyhunter wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Sammuthegreat wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

captainbob8383 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Most people point out that making synthetics to kill everyone so they won't wind up getting killed by synthetics is brainmeltingly retarded. And they're right, it is, but starprick's foul mockery of logic goes far deeper than that. For instance the two other biggest problems with it IMO are:

The starchild's logic makes perfect sense if you actually listen to what he explicitly states. The Reapers do not kill every organic lifeform but only ADVANCED ENOUGH civilizations. This means that the galaxy with 12 simple civs + 4 advanced civs (a total of 16 civs) is left with 12 simple civs (a total of 12 civs) after the purge to develop for the next Reaper invasion.

It still makes no sense at all.
If the starChild's goal is to protect organic life from synthetics, then the most obvious solution is to tell Reapers to kill synthetics, not evolved organics.
Reapers could stay in the galaxy, act as protectors and kill dangerous synthetics.That's all.
Starchild logic makes zero sense.

But that reveals the Reapers existence to organics. Organics will not agree to the Reapers goals, so they'd be forced to fight either way. The Reapers way insures minimal casualties.

That assumes that none of the "non-advanced" or synthetic races will care that the advanced organics are being wiped out. You'd think they might join in the fight against the arbitrary, mysterious machine race that just turned up with the express goal of wiping out all advanced races.

Then you run the risk of people trying to take advantage of reapers, developing reaper clones through reverse engineering or trying to control them.

Then they'll be policing the galaxy, stopping anything that may be synthetic from being made. That would hinder technological progress exponentially and the reapers would gain nothing from it.

No one has been able to reverse engineer the keepers. They self destruct automatically .... in the book it says that all attempts have failed.

...he said Reapers, not keepers :S And we've certainly see that we can reverse engineer Repear tech.

[EpyonX3]

SS2Dante wrote...


Not true; they'd gain a bunch of organics wanting to kill them

At first I was like

But then I was like

[llbountyhunter]

SS2Dante wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Sammuthegreat wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

captainbob8383 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Most people point out that making synthetics to kill everyone so they won't wind up getting killed by synthetics is brainmeltingly retarded. And they're right, it is, but starprick's foul mockery of logic goes far deeper than that. For instance the two other biggest problems with it IMO are:

The starchild's logic makes perfect sense if you actually listen to what he explicitly states. The Reapers do not kill every organic lifeform but only ADVANCED ENOUGH civilizations. This means that the galaxy with 12 simple civs + 4 advanced civs (a total of 16 civs) is left with 12 simple civs (a total of 12 civs) after the purge to develop for the next Reaper invasion.

It still makes no sense at all.
If the starChild's goal is to protect organic life from synthetics, then the most obvious solution is to tell Reapers to kill synthetics, not evolved organics.
Reapers could stay in the galaxy, act as protectors and kill dangerous synthetics.That's all.
Starchild logic makes zero sense.

But that reveals the Reapers existence to organics. Organics will not agree to the Reapers goals, so they'd be forced to fight either way. The Reapers way insures minimal casualties.

That assumes that none of the "non-advanced" or synthetic races will care that the advanced organics are being wiped out. You'd think they might join in the fight against the arbitrary, mysterious machine race that just turned up with the express goal of wiping out all advanced races.

Then you run the risk of people trying to take advantage of reapers, developing reaper clones through reverse engineering or trying to control them.

Then they'll be policing the galaxy, stopping anything that may be synthetic from being made. That would hinder technological progress exponentially and the reapers would gain nothing from it.

No one has been able to reverse engineer the keepers. They self destruct automatically .... in the book it says that all attempts have failed.

...he said Reapers, not keepers :S And we've certainly see that we can reverse engineer Repear tech.

That's my point, why not implement the same technology into the reapers? That way they can help humanity and reveal themselves without risking the possibility of reverse engeneering.

Unless the reapers are bull****ting us of course.

[BatmanTurian]

Mondamor wrote...

Sorry for the interruption
I have a question: Has anyone figured out which planet the Normandy crashed on?
With 2 very close Moons(Planets?), oxygen/breatheble air, djungle? Is there a correspondig one in the codex/galaxy map?
just curiuos
cheers

We are 90% sure, I think, that it's Zorya or at least very similar to Zorya, which is in Zaeed's DLC and where his mission takes place.. Which would make that really hard for Joker to do, which makes the scene even more unreal. Zorya is in the Faia system of the Ismar frontier, so Joker would have to make a jump to the citadel and then to Ismar. The mass relay system there is Aquila, so he would then have to use FTL speed to get to Faia to even crashland there. The odds are incredibly low, best pilot or not, that he could do that. Impossible things happen in dreams though.

[DarksBlade]

DarksBlade wrote...

Baldsake wrote...

DarksBlade wrote...

concerning the 1M1 .... you might want to do a search on the following


Ehwaz      M

Isa
Laguz
Ihwaz (sometimes spelled Eihwaz)     1

not saying it means anything but Eiwhaz, and Laguz  are intresting when mixed with Ehwaz


just saying


here might help runesecrets.com/rune-meanings/ihwaz-eihwaz

wut

they are runes from celtic and norse origin remember proteans visted earth .... Isa looks like the letter I Ehwaz looks like the letter M Laguz is a backwards 7 and and Ihwaz is an inverted and stacked number 1

just bumping this because it kinda got skipped over inbetween 1600-1601 as i posted it in the middle of another casper is either mentally challenged or a crazy person argument

[SS2Dante]

llbountyhunter wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Sammuthegreat wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

captainbob8383 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Most people point out that making synthetics to kill everyone so they won't wind up getting killed by synthetics is brainmeltingly retarded. And they're right, it is, but starprick's foul mockery of logic goes far deeper than that. For instance the two other biggest problems with it IMO are:

The starchild's logic makes perfect sense if you actually listen to what he explicitly states. The Reapers do not kill every organic lifeform but only ADVANCED ENOUGH civilizations. This means that the galaxy with 12 simple civs + 4 advanced civs (a total of 16 civs) is left with 12 simple civs (a total of 12 civs) after the purge to develop for the next Reaper invasion.

It still makes no sense at all.
If the starChild's goal is to protect organic life from synthetics, then the most obvious solution is to tell Reapers to kill synthetics, not evolved organics.
Reapers could stay in the galaxy, act as protectors and kill dangerous synthetics.That's all.
Starchild logic makes zero sense.

But that reveals the Reapers existence to organics. Organics will not agree to the Reapers goals, so they'd be forced to fight either way. The Reapers way insures minimal casualties.

That assumes that none of the "non-advanced" or synthetic races will care that the advanced organics are being wiped out. You'd think they might join in the fight against the arbitrary, mysterious machine race that just turned up with the express goal of wiping out all advanced races.

Then you run the risk of people trying to take advantage of reapers, developing reaper clones through reverse engineering or trying to control them.

Then they'll be policing the galaxy, stopping anything that may be synthetic from being made. That would hinder technological progress exponentially and the reapers would gain nothing from it.

No one has been able to reverse engineer the keepers. They self destruct automatically .... in the book it says that all attempts have failed.

...he said Reapers, not keepers :S And we've certainly see that we can reverse engineer Repear tech.

That's my point, why not implement the same technology into the reapers? That way they can help humanity and reveal themselves without risking the possibility of reverse engeneering.

Unless the reapers are bull****ting us of course.

The Reapers don't want to "help" humanity though. They're simply keeping a rare thing (organic life) in existence, presumably because it's such a rare thing.

Also, these attempts were (presumably) made on the citadel, but since everything on the citadel regarding the keepers and the technological workings of the citadel gets fouled up by the (presumed) low level indoctrination, we have no idea how tough the keepers are to reverse engineer (should we even be using that term though? Keepers are organic, so i imagine destroying them is far more effective than destroying a reaper. Reapers don't rot when broken apart).

[MadRabbit999]

I cannot believe people are still talking about the logic of the Catalyst and still missing the simple key points... It's like that stupid joke "Arrow in the knee" no actually.. that is a wrong quote, the original is "Arrow to the knee".

Catalyst NEVER says he will kill advanced civilisations, he says he wants to ascend them and change their form into reapers (To which Shepard says "we want to keep our own form"), which by their logic if the genetic material is kept alive then it is still considerate "alive", disagree or not to their logic, but it still makes sense.

Kill =/= "ascend"

[BatmanTurian]

Can't get images to work on here but here's the link comparing the dream with Zorya
http://images50.foto...3ea54cb50aa.jpg

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 20 avril 2012 - 03:46 .

[Rifneno]

paxxton wrote...

The starchild's logic makes perfect sense if you actually listen to what he explicitly states. The Reapers do not kill every organic lifeform but only ADVANCED ENOUGH civilizations. This means that the galaxy with 12 simple civs + 4 advanced civs (a total of 16 civs) is left with 12 simple civs (a total of 12 civs) after the purge to develop for the next Reaper invasion.

Oh. My God. I... You... Oh my GOD.

EpyonX3 wrote...

Also, about the vent warning sticker. We'll be very hard pressed to find it anywhere else in the game. So far, this is the only vent I've seen throughout my play through. No vents on the citadel, the Normandy, sanctuary and even TIM's base.

There are plenty of other warning signs and stickers pertaining to risk of electric shock or other dangers but they're not around vents.

That might be a fair point if vents were actually electrified. That sticker makes no sense whatsoever where it is. Electricity travels by wire, not by open space. There is nothing about that sticker that makes it only applicable for vents.

SS2Dante wrote...

But that reveals the Reapers existence to organics. Organics will not agree to the Reapers goals, so they'd be forced to fight either way. The Reapers way insures minimal casualties.

Minimal--Wh--What the **** is going on here?! Have I stepped into some bizarre alternate dimension where the mere concept of logic is broken!?

SS2Dante wrote...

One example that breaks the pattern isn't proof of anything. We know for a fact that countless organic/synthetic wars have happened in the cycles. The risk is too high.

We don't know that at all! All we have is the word of a collector that there were some dickish machines in his cycle. What happened to logic?! Did some supervillain destroy it in a grand scheme involving the moon, 5 tons of plaster, and goatse?

Sammuthegreat wrote...

This is why I'd personally like it if the reapers' motive was simply "we're the top dogs, and we like being top dogs, we don't want any races to threaten us, so we'll wipe them out systematically whenever they start to advance too far." But BioWare can't really do that now, since it's well within human comprehension, so would either make Sovereign's statement a lie (not outside the realms of possiblity, Sovereign might simply have been bluffing) or completely absurd.

THIS is why I'd be more than happy if BioWare left the reapers' motives a mystery.

I won't. I'll be positively pissed. They promised us on multiple occasions that we'd get the answers to all the Reaper mysteries. And yes, Sovereign was clearly lying if for no other reason than he said they have no beginning.

SS2Dante wrote...

The Reapers don't want to "help" humanity though. They're simply keeping a rare thing (organic life) in existence, presumably because it's such a rare thing.

Oh God. I think I'm having an aneurysm...

[StElmo]

Hey Lovely Chums!

Could someone please proof this idea?

Has anyone considered that Shepard makes it to the citadel, but his mind is half warped from indoctrination, therefore making it plausible that he fired the cruciable, but did so as a result of fighting within his own mind with starchild and the RGB metaphor?

So yes, shepard did defeat the reapers with the cruciable (like sleep walking/dazed/hullucinating type thing), but he only dreamed of starchild, normandy crash etc?

I think this would be idea

[llbountyhunter]

SS2Dante wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Sammuthegreat wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

captainbob8383 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Most people point out that making synthetics to kill everyone so they won't wind up getting killed by synthetics is brainmeltingly retarded. And they're right, it is, but starprick's foul mockery of logic goes far deeper than that. For instance the two other biggest problems with it IMO are:

The starchild's logic makes perfect sense if you actually listen to what he explicitly states. The Reapers do not kill every organic lifeform but only ADVANCED ENOUGH civilizations. This means that the galaxy with 12 simple civs + 4 advanced civs (a total of 16 civs) is left with 12 simple civs (a total of 12 civs) after the purge to develop for the next Reaper invasion.

It still makes no sense at all.
If the starChild's goal is to protect organic life from synthetics, then the most obvious solution is to tell Reapers to kill synthetics, not evolved organics.
Reapers could stay in the galaxy, act as protectors and kill dangerous synthetics.That's all.
Starchild logic makes zero sense.

But that reveals the Reapers existence to organics. Organics will not agree to the Reapers goals, so they'd be forced to fight either way. The Reapers way insures minimal casualties.

That assumes that none of the "non-advanced" or synthetic races will care that the advanced organics are being wiped out. You'd think they might join in the fight against the arbitrary, mysterious machine race that just turned up with the express goal of wiping out all advanced races.

Then you run the risk of people trying to take advantage of reapers, developing reaper clones through reverse engineering or trying to control them.

Then they'll be policing the galaxy, stopping anything that may be synthetic from being made. That would hinder technological progress exponentially and the reapers would gain nothing from it.

No one has been able to reverse engineer the keepers. They self destruct automatically .... in the book it says that all attempts have failed.

...he said Reapers, not keepers :S And we've certainly see that we can reverse engineer Repear tech.

That's my point, why not implement the same technology into the reapers? That way they can help humanity and reveal themselves without risking the possibility of reverse engeneering.

Unless the reapers are bull****ting us of course.

The Reapers don't want to "help" humanity though. They're simply keeping a rare thing (organic life) in existence, presumably because it's such a rare thing.

Also, these attempts were (presumably) made on the citadel, but since everything on the citadel regarding the keepers and the technological workings of the citadel gets fouled up by the (presumed) low level indoctrination, we have no idea how tough the keepers are to reverse engineer (should we even be using that term though? Keepers are organic, so i imagine destroying them is far more effective than destroying a reaper. Reapers don't rot when broken apart).

Keepers are not completely organic. There a hybrid they dissolve into a paste when examined in any form (not just reverse engineer)

The reapers can keep tabs on life and still present themselves. They don't have to hide. Unless that's not their real purpose.

Also after hundreds of cycles of life rising and being destroyed, I'd say its far from "rare"

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 20 avril 2012 - 03:38 .

[SS2Dante]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

I cannot believe people are still talking about the logic of the Catalyst and still missing the simple key points... It's like that stupid joke "Arrow in the knee" no actually.. that is a wrong quote, the original is "Arrow to the knee".

Catalyst NEVER says he will kill advanced civilisations, he says he wants to ascend them and change their form into reapers (To which Shepard says "we want to keep our own form"), which by their logic if the genetic material is kept alive then it is still considerate "alive", disagree or not to their logic, but it still makes sense.

Kill =/= "ascend"

This.

[lex0r11]

Rifneno wrote...

paxxton wrote...

The starchild's logic makes perfect sense if you actually listen to what he explicitly states. The Reapers do not kill every organic lifeform but only ADVANCED ENOUGH civilizations. This means that the galaxy with 12 simple civs + 4 advanced civs (a total of 16 civs) is left with 12 simple civs (a total of 12 civs) after the purge to develop for the next Reaper invasion.

Oh. My God. I... You... Oh my GOD.

It's okay, Rifneno. Human Baby will take over, you can relax.

[SS2Dante]

@Rifneno Very well, counter arguments as to how Reapers can destroy synthetics without incurring the wrath of the galaxy.

@illboundyhunter But as we've said, by doing that function the Reapers are acting as a massive dictatorship. How many "free" civilisations will stop research on Ai's? The people will fight for their rights.This path is opression and will always lead to war. Even if the Reapers are completely right, they could never convince organics. Thus they'd have to either enslave all organics (difficult at best) or destroy them. All paths lead to war.

[llbountyhunter]

SS2Dante wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

I cannot believe people are still talking about the logic of the Catalyst and still missing the simple key points... It's like that stupid joke "Arrow in the knee" no actually.. that is a wrong quote, the original is "Arrow to the knee".

Catalyst NEVER says he will kill advanced civilisations, he says he wants to ascend them and change their form into reapers (To which Shepard says "we want to keep our own form"), which by their logic if the genetic material is kept alive then it is still considerate "alive", disagree or not to their logic, but it still makes sense.

Kill =/= "ascend"

This.

This is the same bad reason a mad scientist gives....

[llbountyhunter]

SS2Dante wrote...

@Rifneno Very well, counter arguments as to how Reapers can destroy synthetics without incurring the wrath of the galaxy.

@illboundyhunter But as we've said, by doing that function the Reapers are acting as a massive dictatorship. How many "free" civilisations will stop research on Ai's? The people will fight for their rights.This path is opression and will always lead to war. Even if the Reapers are completely right, they could never convince organics. Thus they'd have to either enslave all organics (difficult at best) or destroy them. All paths lead to war.

Like the quarians and the geth?

EDI and Normandy crew?

Edi: "I am willing to risk nonfunctionality for Jeff"

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 20 avril 2012 - 03:44 .

[dreamgazer]

StElmo wrote...

Has anyone considered that Shepard makes it to the citadel, but his mind is half warped from indoctrination, therefore making it plausible that he fired the cruciable, but did so as a result of fighting within his own mind with starchild and the RGB metaphor?

So yes, shepard did defeat the reapers with the cruciable (like sleep walking/dazed/hullucinating type thing), but he only dreamed of starchild, normandy crash etc?

Wholly plausible. In fact, it's very similar to the direction that my mind took when I beat the game at launch, since I picked up on a lot of the raw surreal cues. And it still makes use of the evidence that the diligent investigators have unearthed.

[SS2Dante]

llbountyhunter wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

I cannot believe people are still talking about the logic of the Catalyst and still missing the simple key points... It's like that stupid joke "Arrow in the knee" no actually.. that is a wrong quote, the original is "Arrow to the knee".

Catalyst NEVER says he will kill advanced civilisations, he says he wants to ascend them and change their form into reapers (To which Shepard says "we want to keep our own form"), which by their logic if the genetic material is kept alive then it is still considerate "alive", disagree or not to their logic, but it still makes sense.

Kill =/= "ascend"

This.

This is the same bad reason a mad scientist gives....

Why does everyone keep approaching this as if the Reapers think like us, or have the same values as us, or are in any way similar to us in thinking process? Go back a few pages and read the extract from a book where the character is describing the Reapers trying to indoctrinate her. It's as if they don't know how to frame their arguments so that we will understand. Mad or  not to us, it obviously makes sense to them. We're simply too different to understand their way of thinking, especially if we assign a "mode" of thought to them.

[Sammuthegreat]

StElmo wrote...

Hey Lovely Chums!

Could someone please proof this idea?

Has anyone considered that Shepard makes it to the citadel, but his mind is half warped from indoctrination, therefore making it plausible that he fired the cruciable, but did so as a result of fighting within his own mind with starchild and the RGB metaphor?

So yes, shepard did defeat the reapers with the cruciable (like sleep walking/dazed/hullucinating type thing), but he only dreamed of starchild, normandy crash etc?

I think this would be idea

Yeah, it's been brought up - personally I don't like it, as it would suggest that the Crucible still fired Space Magic beams, and that it functions via completely nonsensical means (e.g. shooting a pole destroys all synthetics. You see the logical vacuum).

[BatmanTurian]

lex0r11 wrote...
It's okay, Rifneno. Human Baby will take over, you can relax.

Lex0r can you help me out? I can't seem to post images for some reason. Maybe I'm doing something wrong...

[SS2Dante]

llbountyhunter wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

@Rifneno Very well, counter arguments as to how Reapers can destroy synthetics without incurring the wrath of the galaxy.

@illboundyhunter But as we've said, by doing that function the Reapers are acting as a massive dictatorship. How many "free" civilisations will stop research on Ai's? The people will fight for their rights.This path is opression and will always lead to war. Even if the Reapers are completely right, they could never convince organics. Thus they'd have to either enslave all organics (difficult at best) or destroy them. All paths lead to war.

Like the quarians and the geth?

EDI and Normandy crew?

Edi: "I am willing to risk nonfunctionality for Jeff"

Would humanity have stopped research into EDI because the great space police told them to?

Also, once again, the geth/quarian thing. This keeps being given as evidence. How many countless cycles have the Reapers seen? And in each one (it is strongly suggested) the pattern is the same. It just so happened that in this cycle the AI developed was not strong or aggressive enough to destroy the creator race in the first war. Look at EDI. When brought online the first thing she did was go crazy and kill people, Glados style.

Even if every 9 out of 10 AI races are ok, you just need one to destroy the galaxy.