57139 réponses à ce sujet

[llbountyhunter]

SS2Dante wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

@Rifneno Very well, counter arguments as to how Reapers can destroy synthetics without incurring the wrath of the galaxy.

@illboundyhunter But as we've said, by doing that function the Reapers are acting as a massive dictatorship. How many "free" civilisations will stop research on Ai's? The people will fight for their rights.This path is opression and will always lead to war. Even if the Reapers are completely right, they could never convince organics. Thus they'd have to either enslave all organics (difficult at best) or destroy them. All paths lead to war.

Like the quarians and the geth?

EDI and Normandy crew?

Edi: "I am willing to risk nonfunctionality for Jeff"

Would humanity have stopped research into EDI because the great space police told them to?

Also, once again, the geth/quarian thing. This keeps being given as evidence. How many countless cycles have the Reapers seen? And in each one (it is strongly suggested) the pattern is the same. It just so happened that in this cycle the AI developed was not strong or aggressive enough to destroy the creator race in the first war. Look at EDI. When brought online the first thing she did was go crazy and kill people, Glados style.

Even if every 9 out of 10 AI races are ok, you just need one to destroy the galaxy.

The problem is that organics try to kill AI's so they retaliate. The reapers are using the same flawed logic.

Shepard managed peace by talking.... are you saying Shepard is smarter than even the reapers?

As I said, the first thing EDI did when brought online was to kill people. She wasn't provoked.

And yes, talking might solve the issue. But this argument is based on the idea that talking works every time. All it takes for this to end is one AI, just one, to develop and rebel (whatever the reason, innocent or not). You might have a hundered nice sythetics, but if just one goes rogue then you have a war that can quickly spill out of control.

The reapers live forever, for all practical pruposes. They do not view time the way we do. As an analogy, if humans lived to the age of 1000, noone would ever cross the road. Why? Because the odds of being runover go past the tipping point in that lifespan. If you live to a thousand, you will probably be runover and killed, if you cross the road just once a day. The Reapers face a similar choice. They can take a chance, knowing that EVENTUALLY things must go wrong, or they can do the cycle. The cycle is far less risky, and from their standpoint (where lives are expendable) no less effective or morally wrong.

Now your borrowing some flawed logic from the salarion leader. Condemning and entire species based on "might" happen.

Actually I was always pro-genophage. Wrex's leadership was a step in the right direction but it was still far too risky. I'm not going to risk half the galaxy just so I can feel like I'm a "nice guy". You are allowing morality to slip into your judgement of the situation.

Also, the salarians are know for being the most logical race. The Reapers are half machine. So...yeah. I can see how they will think alike.

Again. Your whole argument is that the reapers are trying to evolve other species.... why kill half of them in the process when you can do it Shepard's way and kill none? It A win win for everybody

[balance5050]

SS2Dante wrote...

Once again; you are thinking like a human. You can't argue apples and oranges here.

EDIT - also, you're completely ignoring the argument given. Ascending is NOT EQUAL TO killing in the Reapers eyes, so your gun comparison is not only false but shows a complete lack of regard for the argument you are countering.

So, to understand the Reaper's logic, all I have to do is think like a Reaper? Sounds easy enoughblarglwr:LKFDAF.....

ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL.....



(Maybe thinking like a reaper isn't such a good idea.)

[DJBare]

SS2Dante wrote...
As I said, the first thing EDI did when brought online was to kill people. She wasn't provoked.

Actually she was provoked

Shepard: That was you on Luna?
EDI: Yes, it was confusing being under attack while becoming aware.

[SS2Dante]

balance5050 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...


Actually I was always pro-genophage. Wrex's leadership was a step in the right direction but it was still far too risky. I'm not going to risk half the galaxy just so I can feel like I'm a "nice guy". You are allowing morality to slip into your judgement of the situation.

Also, the salarians are know for being the most logical race. The Reapers are half machine. So...yeah. I can see how they will think alike.

Sigh, but the Salarians lifted the Krogans in the first place to help with Rachni. There shouldn't be any "morality" to curing them again because they are an ally verses the greater threat. Even Mordin knows this dude, he created the dam genophage.

True, once the Reaper threat is introduced the scales tip. It all depends on how likely it is that you can defeat the Reapers without the Krogan, versus how likely it is that they will rebel if you do. I'm not saying it's simple, once the Reaper threat is introduced.

[Skillz1986]

@ss2dante
ome thimg you appearently did not understand and are still gettimg wrong, is the fact that the geth never rebelled agaimst the quarians. it were not synthetics initiatimg this war at all. and also, they did not whipe the quarians out of existence because they themselves were nkt strong enough. But because the quarians leaving the planet were nor longer a threat to the geth. the quarians were the aggressors in this conflict BOTH times.
Which means, not only is this cycle an exception due to the possibility of a peaceful coexistence between organics and synthetics. but beacause of the synthetics goddamn DESIRE for peace.

[balance5050]

SS2Dante wrote...


*shrug* enslavement with brainwashing. I'd draw a parallel to religion but I don't wanna start a big argument P

Also, if you're a Reaper you're not "enslaving" them. You're making them better than they were, showing them a higher state of existence. Making them happier than they ever could have been as a mere human/krogan/blueskinnedhotalienchick

No offence but you sound like a fully indoctrinated Saren right now.

[byne]

SS2Dante wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Once again; you are thinking like a human. You can't argue apples and oranges here.

EDIT - also, you're completely ignoring the argument given. Ascending is NOT EQUAL TO killing in the Reapers eyes, so your gun comparison is not only false but shows a complete lack of regard for the argument you are countering.

You're right, ascending= enslavement.

*shrug* enslavement with brainwashing. I'd draw a parallel to religion but I don't wanna start a big argument P

Also, if you're a Reaper you're not "enslaving" them. You're making them better than they were, showing them a higher state of existence. Making them happier than they ever could have been as a mere human/krogan/blueskinnedhotalienchick

Except the Reapers go out of their way to upgrade the geth, allowing them to completely wipe out the majority of the quarians in the galaxy.

So no ascension for them.

[SS2Dante]

DJBare wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...
As I said, the first thing EDI did when brought online was to kill people. She wasn't provoked.

Actually she was provoked

Shepard: That was you on Luna?
EDI: Yes, it was confusing being under attack while becoming aware.

My mistake. But weren't they trying to shut her down because she was shutting down oxygen and stuff? Not saying I'm right, it doesn't really matter who started it, since the point is that the initial confusion usually results in war. But I bet the marines who were at that facilty have a differnt view of who threw the first punch

[Rosewind]

Hmmm you know the end jungle survivor scene and how it looks like Zorya? Is Zorya the one where overlord takes place and has the two moons? If so I always thought it was weird the hammerhead on board VI mentions to take note of the scenery,I just always wondered why would they put it in not like we cared but it is a nice view.

[SS2Dante]

balance5050 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...


*shrug* enslavement with brainwashing. I'd draw a parallel to religion but I don't wanna start a big argument P

Also, if you're a Reaper you're not "enslaving" them. You're making them better than they were, showing them a higher state of existence. Making them happier than they ever could have been as a mere human/krogan/blueskinnedhotalienchick

No offence but you sound like a fully indoctrinated Saren right now.

People are saying they think the starchilds logic is false. I'm pointing out that since we do not think like them, their priorities are compltely different. I don't AGREE with them, but I can understand where they get their logic from. Different beings, different priorities. People are calling them stupid without thinking about it.

[Big Bad]

@Dante - i would very much like to continue this conversation, but i am typing on my phone at work, and i can't really keep up. sorry!

[byne]

SS2Dante wrote...

DJBare wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...
As I said, the first thing EDI did when brought online was to kill people. She wasn't provoked.

Actually she was provoked

Shepard: That was you on Luna?
EDI: Yes, it was confusing being under attack while becoming aware.

My mistake. But weren't they trying to shut her down because she was shutting down oxygen and stuff? Not saying I'm right, it doesn't really matter who started it, since the point is that the initial confusion usually results in war. But I bet the marines who were at that facilty have a differnt view of who threw the first punch

While its true they were just training, the marines technically attacked EDI first, which is yet another example of organics being the aggressors, and not synthetics.

The godchild is just all kinds of wrong.

[balance5050]

SS2Dante wrote...

DJBare wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...
As I said, the first thing EDI did when brought online was to kill people. She wasn't provoked.

Actually she was provoked

Shepard: That was you on Luna?
EDI: Yes, it was confusing being under attack while becoming aware.

My mistake. But weren't they trying to shut her down because she was shutting down oxygen and stuff? Not saying I'm right, it doesn't really matter who started it, since the point is that the initial confusion usually results in war. But I bet the marines who were at that facilty have a differnt view of who threw the first punch

I don't see the difference between organics and synthetics in your argument. Cultures often fight when they don't understand eachother.

Are you saying that EDI isn't alive? Are you saying this one (Legion) doesn't have a soul?

[Vahilor]

Cause of all that "Synthetic destroy their Creators" talk... Why did the Reapers destroy the Prothenas than ? The prothens only seemd to have VIs and no KIs at all ?
Why than destroy the Protheans if the main reason is to protect the organics from the synthetics ?

And who sais in other cycles there was no coexistens of Synthetics and organics ? Cause of that arrogance of the Reapers and Star Brat it doesn't even matter if there is a cooexixtsnce.. they purge the organics anyway, cause their big logic is that synthetics allways will kill organics...

[llbountyhunter]

llbountyhunter wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

@Rifneno Very well, counter arguments as to how Reapers can destroy synthetics without incurring the wrath of the galaxy.

@illboundyhunter But as we've said, by doing that function the Reapers are acting as a massive dictatorship. How many "free" civilisations will stop research on Ai's? The people will fight for their rights.This path is opression and will always lead to war. Even if the Reapers are completely right, they could never convince organics. Thus they'd have to either enslave all organics (difficult at best) or destroy them. All paths lead to war.

Like the quarians and the geth?

EDI and Normandy crew?

Edi: "I am willing to risk nonfunctionality for Jeff"

Would humanity have stopped research into EDI because the great space police told them to?

Also, once again, the geth/quarian thing. This keeps being given as evidence. How many countless cycles have the Reapers seen? And in each one (it is strongly suggested) the pattern is the same. It just so happened that in this cycle the AI developed was not strong or aggressive enough to destroy the creator race in the first war. Look at EDI. When brought online the first thing she did was go crazy and kill people, Glados style.

Even if every 9 out of 10 AI races are ok, you just need one to destroy the galaxy.

The problem is that organics try to kill AI's so they retaliate. The reapers are using the same flawed logic.

Shepard managed peace by talking.... are you saying Shepard is smarter than even the reapers?

As I said, the first thing EDI did when brought online was to kill people. She wasn't provoked.

And yes, talking might solve the issue. But this argument is based on the idea that talking works every time. All it takes for this to end is one AI, just one, to develop and rebel (whatever the reason, innocent or not). You might have a hundered nice sythetics, but if just one goes rogue then you have a war that can quickly spill out of control.

The reapers live forever, for all practical pruposes. They do not view time the way we do. As an analogy, if humans lived to the age of 1000, noone would ever cross the road. Why? Because the odds of being runover go past the tipping point in that lifespan. If you live to a thousand, you will probably be runover and killed, if you cross the road just once a day. The Reapers face a similar choice. They can take a chance, knowing that EVENTUALLY things must go wrong, or they can do the cycle. The cycle is far less risky, and from their standpoint (where lives are expendable) no less effective or morally wrong.

Now your borrowing some flawed logic from the salarion leader. Condemning and entire species based on "might" happen.

Actually I was always pro-genophage. Wrex's leadership was a step in the right direction but it was still far too risky. I'm not going to risk half the galaxy just so I can feel like I'm a "nice guy". You are allowing morality to slip into your judgement of the situation.

Also, the salarians are know for being the most logical race. The Reapers are half machine. So...yeah. I can see how they will think alike.

Again. Your whole argument is that the reapers are trying to evolve other species.... why kill half of them in the process when you can do it Shepard's way and kill none? It A win win for everybody

[SS2Dante]

byne wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Once again; you are thinking like a human. You can't argue apples and oranges here.

EDIT - also, you're completely ignoring the argument given. Ascending is NOT EQUAL TO killing in the Reapers eyes, so your gun comparison is not only false but shows a complete lack of regard for the argument you are countering.

You're right, ascending= enslavement.

*shrug* enslavement with brainwashing. I'd draw a parallel to religion but I don't wanna start a big argument P

Also, if you're a Reaper you're not "enslaving" them. You're making them better than they were, showing them a higher state of existence. Making them happier than they ever could have been as a mere human/krogan/blueskinnedhotalienchick

Except the Reapers go out of their way to upgrade the geth, allowing them to completely wipe out the majority of the quarians in the galaxy.

So no ascension for them.

The Reapers seem to choose only the "worthy" species of each cycle for ascention. (perhaps this is why when talking to the starkid with low EMS he treats you with disdain and says you have more choice "than you deserve").

Anyway, all of this is speculation. I'm just pointing out that the starkid is not blatently wrong and stupid like veryone is suggesting.

[Baldsake]

Rosewind wrote...

Hmmm you know the end jungle survivor scene and how it looks like Zorya? Is Zorya the one where overlord takes place and has the two moons? If so I always thought it was weird the hammerhead on board VI mentions to take note of the scenery,I just always wondered why would they put it in not like we cared but it is a nice view.

to me it looks like the jacob loyalty mission planet.. it also has 2 moons and looks like a paradise pretty much.

[DirtyPhoenix]

SS2Dante wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...


*shrug* enslavement with brainwashing. I'd draw a parallel to religion but I don't wanna start a big argument P

Also, if you're a Reaper you're not "enslaving" them. You're making them better than they were, showing them a higher state of existence. Making them happier than they ever could have been as a mere human/krogan/blueskinnedhotalienchick

No offence but you sound like a fully indoctrinated Saren right now.

People are saying they think the starchilds logic is false. I'm pointing out that since we do not think like them, their priorities are compltely different. I don't AGREE with them, but I can understand where they get their logic from. Different beings, different priorities. People are calling them stupid without thinking about it.

True. This is why Sovreign said in ME1: We are beyond your comprehension:bandit:

[byne]

SS2Dante wrote...


People are saying they think the starchilds logic is false. I'm pointing out that since we do not think like them, their priorities are compltely different. I don't AGREE with them, but I can understand where they get their logic from. Different beings, different priorities. People are calling them stupid without thinking about it.

Someone could say that apples were made of glass and grew underground too, and even have internally consistent logic that explains how it happens.

It wouldnt change the fact that they are monumentally stupid though. Apples pretty clearly arent made of glass, and grow on trees. Just because you think differently, and have different logic, it doesnt exempt you from being stupid.

[Vahilor]

balance5050 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

DJBare wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...
As I said, the first thing EDI did when brought online was to kill people. She wasn't provoked.

Actually she was provoked

Shepard: That was you on Luna?
EDI: Yes, it was confusing being under attack while becoming aware.

My mistake. But weren't they trying to shut her down because she was shutting down oxygen and stuff? Not saying I'm right, it doesn't really matter who started it, since the point is that the initial confusion usually results in war. But I bet the marines who were at that facilty have a differnt view of who threw the first punch

I don't see the difference between organics and synthetics in your argument. Cultures often fight when they don't understand eachother.

Are you saying that EDI isn't alive? Are you saying this one (Legion) doesn't have a soul?

And I have to agree on that point. Organics fight organics.. so were is the point in protecting organics from synthetics ? Organics kill each other as well.. like humans and turians did.

[SS2Dante]

Vahilor wrote...

Cause of all that "Synthetic destroy their Creators" talk... Why did the Reapers destroy the Prothenas than ? The prothens only seemd to have VIs and no KIs at all ?
Why than destroy the Protheans if the main reason is to protect the organics from the synthetics ?

And who sais in other cycles there was no coexistens of Synthetics and organics ? Cause of that arrogance of the Reapers and Star Brat it doesn't even matter if there is a cooexixtsnce.. they purge the organics anyway, cause their big logic is that synthetics allways will kill organics...

Javik says that this something similar did in fact happen in his cycle.

Also, the point is not that they are trying to saves lives, it's that they are preserving organic life as a whole. They couldn't care less which individuals keep living, so long as organics stay alive. One possible reason is that they use organic material in reproduction. Hence the need to keep organics alive. The cycle both guarantess organics stay alive and that they don't get advanced enough to pose a threat.

[DJBare]

SS2Dante wrote...

DJBare wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...
As I said, the first thing EDI did when brought online was to kill people. She wasn't provoked.

Actually she was provoked

Shepard: That was you on Luna?
EDI: Yes, it was confusing being under attack while becoming aware.

My mistake. But weren't they trying to shut her down because she was shutting down oxygen and stuff? Not saying I'm right, it doesn't really matter who started it, since the point is that the initial confusion usually results in war. But I bet the marines who were at that facilty have a differnt view of who threw the first punch

She was shutting down the oxygen because she was under attack, it's a sentient being defending itself, even if we accept it as a misunderstanding, the alliance "officially" had a strict policy against the use of AI's, they would have still attempted deactivation even if the AI had done nothing to defend itself.
Sounds familiar huh.

[balance5050]

SS2Dante wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...


*shrug* enslavement with brainwashing. I'd draw a parallel to religion but I don't wanna start a big argument P

Also, if you're a Reaper you're not "enslaving" them. You're making them better than they were, showing them a higher state of existence. Making them happier than they ever could have been as a mere human/krogan/blueskinnedhotalienchick

No offence but you sound like a fully indoctrinated Saren right now.

People are saying they think the starchilds logic is false. I'm pointing out that since we do not think like them, their priorities are compltely different. I don't AGREE with them, but I can understand where they get their logic from. Different beings, different priorities. People are calling them stupid without thinking about it.

If you think like serial killer, you could understand his logic too!

If you think like someone, you will always understand their logic.

If you think like a stupid person, they won't seem stupid.

Do you see the problem with this?

[SS2Dante]

Vahilor wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

DJBare wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...
As I said, the first thing EDI did when brought online was to kill people. She wasn't provoked.

Actually she was provoked

Shepard: That was you on Luna?
EDI: Yes, it was confusing being under attack while becoming aware.

My mistake. But weren't they trying to shut her down because she was shutting down oxygen and stuff? Not saying I'm right, it doesn't really matter who started it, since the point is that the initial confusion usually results in war. But I bet the marines who were at that facilty have a differnt view of who threw the first punch

I don't see the difference between organics and synthetics in your argument. Cultures often fight when they don't understand eachother.

Are you saying that EDI isn't alive? Are you saying this one (Legion) doesn't have a soul?

And I have to agree on that point. Organics fight organics.. so were is the point in protecting organics from synthetics ? Organics kill each other as well.. like humans and turians did.

They do, no arguing that. However, generally speaking, it's an even fight. The problem with synthetic versus organic is that synthetic will probably win, especially if the split happens fast.

[xaurabh123]

SS2Dante wrote...

byne wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Once again; you are thinking like a human. You can't argue apples and oranges here.

EDIT - also, you're completely ignoring the argument given. Ascending is NOT EQUAL TO killing in the Reapers eyes, so your gun comparison is not only false but shows a complete lack of regard for the argument you are countering.

You're right, ascending= enslavement.

*shrug* enslavement with brainwashing. I'd draw a parallel to religion but I don't wanna start a big argument P

Also, if you're a Reaper you're not "enslaving" them. You're making them better than they were, showing them a higher state of existence. Making them happier than they ever could have been as a mere human/krogan/blueskinnedhotalienchick

Except the Reapers go out of their way to upgrade the geth, allowing them to completely wipe out the majority of the quarians in the galaxy.

So no ascension for them.

The Reapers seem to choose only the "worthy" species of each cycle for ascention. (perhaps this is why when talking to the starkid with low EMS he treats you with disdain and says you have more choice "than you deserve").

Anyway, all of this is speculation. I'm just pointing out that the starkid is not blatently wrong and stupid like veryone is suggesting.

The starkid , as we undersatnd is trapped in some kind of infinit loop logic. He is not an error but a mistake. We demand removing that thing.