57139 réponses à ce sujet

[llbountyhunter]

SS2Dante wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...


*shrug* enslavement with brainwashing. I'd draw a parallel to religion but I don't wanna start a big argument P

Also, if you're a Reaper you're not "enslaving" them. You're making them better than they were, showing them a higher state of existence. Making them happier than they ever could have been as a mere human/krogan/blueskinnedhotalienchick

No offence but you sound like a fully indoctrinated Saren right now.

People are saying they think the starchilds logic is false. I'm pointing out that since we do not think like them, their priorities are compltely different. I don't AGREE with them, but I can understand where they get their logic from. Different beings, different priorities. People are calling them stupid without thinking about it.

So how can you argue FOR it if you aren't supposed to understand it yourself?

I'm not arguing for it! I'm presenting the possible Reaper aruments. Geeze. Everyone's keeping this too emotional, I'm giving a purely clinical account of the galaxy and the stratagies you could use to keep in, ASSUMING you don't care about life. Don't get why everyone suddenly seems all offended.

I thought we all agreed it was speculation.... were losing sight of the true enemy here... bioware and they're damn "speculation for everyone! "

[byne]

SS2Dante wrote...

xaurabh123 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...


Anyway, all of this is speculation. I'm just pointing out that the starkid is not blatently wrong and stupid like veryone is suggesting.

If the entire galaxy thinks you are blatantly wrong and stupid, you probably are. The Geth even end up fighting the reapers dude....

Are you trying to tell me this war was fought because we disagreed with the philosophy? It wasn't . The war was fought because they have a job to do and so do we. The goals clash. One of us has to die. I ain't letting it be us

So Bioware didnot have any better idea, just a flawed logic? Everyone in the galaxy is dying just because a freaking AI thinks some stupid logic.?

Flawed logic according to OUR standards. I keep having to repeat this. Must I make the crossing the road argument again?

Your entire argument defending the Reapers boils down to "No man, you dont understand. It probably makes sense to them."

Thats not a compelling defense, my good man.

[Skillz1986]

@ss2dante

the geth were on the verge of losing the second war. onl because the reeapers helped them they managed to fight back. the problem would have been solved..no synthetics to whipe out organics. that's their whole point right? Why the hell did they help the geth?

[DirtyPhoenix]

The Protheans didn't take care of the synthetics, they were merely "turning the tide" and that too after uniting almost every other synthetic species with them. Think how individual races would have fared against them

Also, I maybe wrong but, when the Geth are about to be annihilated by Quarians, isn't it Shepard's choice to upgrade them with Reaper codes? how does the Reaper's will feature here?

[byne]

pirate1802 wrote...

The Protheans didn't take care of the synthetics, they were merely "turning the tide" and that too after uniting almost every other synthetic species with them. Think how individual races would have fared against them

Also, I maybe wrong but, when the Geth are about to be annihilated by Quarians, isn't it Shepard's choice to upgrade them with Reaper codes? how does the Reaper's will feature here?

You think Shepard wrote the code herself?

Who do you think gave the geth the Reaper codes in the first place?

[balance5050]

SS2Dante wrote...


Point is, everyone is missing the different priorities thing, and weighing in life as a large factor in the calculations here, where to a Reaper it would carry no value in the calculation.

The reapers priority is SELF PRESERVATION as it is with any living thing. For them to continue living, they have to consume intelligent races.

It doesn't need to be any more complex then that because for them to "continue their species" they pretty much end ours, we aren't preserved as humans, were preserved as reapers.

The whole war is about self preservation, and if any inch of you thinks that being liquified for reaper fuel is "ascension", then you are already lost.

[SS2Dante]

Skillz1986 wrote...

@ss2dante

the geth were on the verge of losing the second war. onl because the reeapers helped them they managed to fight back. the problem would have been solved..no synthetics to whipe out organics. that's their whole point right? Why the hell did they help the geth?

Because the cycle is coming to an end. Look, a machine doesn't look at individual cases, it just sees patterns. Even if the quarian and Geth get along great, soon another AI war will spring up. It might be in 100 years, or a thousand, or a thousand thousand, to the Reapers it makes no difference. Eventually the AI will rise up and fight, and destroy. The cycle prevents this.

[Skillz1986]

@pirate
you are wrong. before you even met the quarians, they had the geth by the balls..processors, whatever. the geth then turned for the reapers for help.

[RADIUMEYEZ]

paxxton wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

paxxton wrote...

The starchild's logic makes perfect sense if you actually listen to what he explicitly states. The Reapers do not kill every organic lifeform but only ADVANCED ENOUGH civilizations. This means that the galaxy with 12 simple civs + 4 advanced civs (a total of 16 civs) is left with 12 simple civs (a total of 12 civs) after the purge to develop for the next Reaper invasion.

Oh. My God. I... You... Oh my GOD.

Aha. That's an extremely comprehensive answer. But unfortunately I cannot comprehend the magnitude of its meaning.

But how does it make sense that a race of synthetic organisms is stopping by destroying us so we do not create synthetic organisms that will "maybe" eventually destroy us? And if this logic does make sense then why don't the reapers just destroy the synthetics and stop us from making sythentics by limiting our technological advances somehow? But what if the synthetics live past the cycle and kill off the simpler civilizations? Also if the reapers want to stop synthetics why do they help the Geth at all? Also in the first cycle were the reapers created as a synthetic organism to help the leading species in that cycle? And if that is the case doesn't that mean that the reapers did exactly what they are trying to stop in the first place? Also why is the star child living on the citadel? Where did he come from? How did he create the reapers?

[Skillz1986]

I don't know. the whole "no ai law" seems to be working oit well. no one tried to create new ai's eversince the quarians did it. maybe some splinter groups did, but they were as successfull as star wars kinect.

[balance5050]

SS2Dante wrote...

Skillz1986 wrote...

@ss2dante

the geth were on the verge of losing the second war. onl because the reeapers helped them they managed to fight back. the problem would have been solved..no synthetics to whipe out organics. that's their whole point right? Why the hell did they help the geth?

Because the cycle is coming to an end. Look, a machine doesn't look at individual cases, it just sees patterns. Even if the quarian and Geth get along great, soon another AI war will spring up. It might be in 100 years, or a thousand, or a thousand thousand, to the Reapers it makes no difference. Eventually the AI will rise up and fight, and destroy. The cycle prevents this.

a machine doesn't look at individual cases      


Wrong! Legion looks at Shepard as an individual.

[byne]

SS2Dante wrote...

Skillz1986 wrote...

@ss2dante

the geth were on the verge of losing the second war. onl because the reeapers helped them they managed to fight back. the problem would have been solved..no synthetics to whipe out organics. that's their whole point right? Why the hell did they help the geth?

Because the cycle is coming to an end. Look, a machine doesn't look at individual cases, it just sees patterns. Even if the quarian and Geth get along great, soon another AI war will spring up. It might be in 100 years, or a thousand, or a thousand thousand, to the Reapers it makes no difference. Eventually the AI will rise up and fight, and destroy. The cycle prevents this.

That still doesnt explain why the Reapers didnt just let the quarians destroy the geth. The cycle is coming to an end, and if the quarians dont kill the geth, the Reapers are going to have to do it themselves.

Honestly dante, the more you try and defend the Reapers' logic, the more flaws become apparent in it.

Normally I'd advise you to stop while you're ahead, but I'm not going to pretend you're ahead, so I'll just say its probably best to just let it go.

Modifié par byne, 20 avril 2012 - 04:57 .

[RobinEJ]

Hi. It's new idea how to make BW so depressed as we are:
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Please invite your friends!

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- Turn ON the Mass Effect 3 single player campaign at some point during Saturday, April 28th (Pacific Time/GMT -7). It does not need to be on for the entire 24 hour period.
- Tweet Bioware/EA to let them know you are playing in order to show them the number of fans who support them. Post an after action report on the BSN.
- Turn OFF Mass Effect 3 and do not play either single or multiplayer for the entirety of Sunday, April 29th (Pacific Time/GMT -7). The game must be shut off for the entire 24 hour period. Do not log in to the BSN forum during this time.
- Tweet Bioware/EA again to let them know you are demonstrating their potential loss of customers.

[xaurabh123]

SS2Dante wrote...

xaurabh123 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...


Anyway, all of this is speculation. I'm just pointing out that the starkid is not blatently wrong and stupid like veryone is suggesting.

If the entire galaxy thinks you are blatantly wrong and stupid, you probably are. The Geth even end up fighting the reapers dude....

Are you trying to tell me this war was fought because we disagreed with the philosophy? It wasn't . The war was fought because they have a job to do and so do we. The goals clash. One of us has to die. I ain't letting it be us

So Bioware didnot have any better idea, just a flawed logic? Everyone in the galaxy is dying just because a freaking AI thinks some stupid logic.?

Flawed logic according to OUR standards. I keep having to repeat this. Must I make the crossing the road argument again?

As far as we know, all the things shepard did in the previous installments and in ME 3 was to make certain amount of ramification to the final output. But that Starchild Logic is presented to us which negates everything we did and we are not okay with it. There had to be other ways as the game always told us. That starchild gives us some crap options which are by the way all are same. Thats why we demand removing him and put a good story, like the ID theory. The reapers always claimed their motives were incomprehensible, does it actually mean "meaningless".

[llbountyhunter]

SS2Dante wrote...

Skillz1986 wrote...

@ss2dante

the geth were on the verge of losing the second war. onl because the reeapers helped them they managed to fight back. the problem would have been solved..no synthetics to whipe out organics. that's their whole point right? Why the hell did they help the geth?

Because the cycle is coming to an end. Look, a machine doesn't look at individual cases, it just sees patterns. Even if the quarian and Geth get along great, soon another AI war will spring up. It might be in 100 years, or a thousand, or a thousand thousand, to the Reapers it makes no difference. Eventually the AI will rise up and fight, and destroy. The cycle prevents this.

Again your condemning AI's biased on what might happen. And you can't say "oh AI's have rebelled hundred of times in previous cycles" because we aren't reapers. Who knows maybe AI's fought along side organics in hundreds of other cycles?

[SS2Dante]

byne wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

xaurabh123 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...


Anyway, all of this is speculation. I'm just pointing out that the starkid is not blatently wrong and stupid like veryone is suggesting.

If the entire galaxy thinks you are blatantly wrong and stupid, you probably are. The Geth even end up fighting the reapers dude....

Are you trying to tell me this war was fought because we disagreed with the philosophy? It wasn't . The war was fought because they have a job to do and so do we. The goals clash. One of us has to die. I ain't letting it be us

So Bioware didnot have any better idea, just a flawed logic? Everyone in the galaxy is dying just because a freaking AI thinks some stupid logic.?

Flawed logic according to OUR standards. I keep having to repeat this. Must I make the crossing the road argument again?

Your entire argument defending the Reapers boils down to "No man, you dont understand. It probably makes sense to them."

Thats not a compelling defense, my good man.

Ok, the problem is that people aren't seeing the inherent judgement calls when we use what we call "logic". I'll give the crossing the road example.

You cross the road, right? Course you do. Now, let's say the odds of being hit by a car and dying when you cross the road are 1 in a thousand. (making this number up obviously). Lets also assume you only cross the road once a year. Now, the average human lives to 100, say. That means crossing the road will, in all probability, NOT kill you. Logically, you can cross roads with little risk.

HOWEVER, if humans lived to the age of ten million years, crossing the road is tantamount to suicide. Because eventually...eventually...it'll happen. You'll get hit and die. It's all but certain it'll happen.

From your perspective, logic changes.

As a rough parallel to the case here, we humans live a very short lifespan in comparison to the Reapers, so we take bigger chances. To a Reaper, even if the chance of synthetics destroying organics is small, its still BOUND to happen. 

Now, once again, I'm not claiming certainty or understanding or agreement, simply pointing out that the starkids logic being faulty is based entirely on the human values of life, death, and chance.

[balance5050]

byne wrote...


Honestly dante, the more you try and defend the Reapers' logic, the more flaws become apparent in it.

Normally I'd advise you to stop while you're ahead, but I'm not going to pretend you're ahead, so I'll just say its probably best to just let it go.

[SS2Dante]

llbountyhunter wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Skillz1986 wrote...

@ss2dante

the geth were on the verge of losing the second war. onl because the reeapers helped them they managed to fight back. the problem would have been solved..no synthetics to whipe out organics. that's their whole point right? Why the hell did they help the geth?

Because the cycle is coming to an end. Look, a machine doesn't look at individual cases, it just sees patterns. Even if the quarian and Geth get along great, soon another AI war will spring up. It might be in 100 years, or a thousand, or a thousand thousand, to the Reapers it makes no difference. Eventually the AI will rise up and fight, and destroy. The cycle prevents this.

Again your condemning AI's biased on what might happen. And you can't say "oh AI's have rebelled hundred of times in previous cycles" because we aren't reapers. Who knows maybe AI's fought along side organics in hundreds of other cycles?

Yes I am. It's a value judgement, which is why saying someones view on it is "stupid" is missing the point.

Could be. 

[DirtyPhoenix]

xaurabh123 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

xaurabh123 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...


Anyway, all of this is speculation. I'm just pointing out that the starkid is not blatently wrong and stupid like veryone is suggesting.

If the entire galaxy thinks you are blatantly wrong and stupid, you probably are. The Geth even end up fighting the reapers dude....

Are you trying to tell me this war was fought because we disagreed with the philosophy? It wasn't . The war was fought because they have a job to do and so do we. The goals clash. One of us has to die. I ain't letting it be us

So Bioware didnot have any better idea, just a flawed logic? Everyone in the galaxy is dying just because a freaking AI thinks some stupid logic.?

Flawed logic according to OUR standards. I keep having to repeat this. Must I make the crossing the road argument again?

As far as we know, all the things shepard did in the previous installments and in ME 3 was to make certain amount of ramification to the final output. But that Starchild Logic is presented to us which negates everything we did and we are not okay with it. There had to be other ways as the game always told us. That starchild gives us some crap options which are by the way all are same. Thats why we demand removing him and put a good story, like the ID theory. The reapers always claimed their motives were incomprehensible, does it actually mean "meaningless".

Nice to see an Indian here I'll be your fellow fleet-mate

[SS2Dante]

balance5050 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...


Point is, everyone is missing the different priorities thing, and weighing in life as a large factor in the calculations here, where to a Reaper it would carry no value in the calculation.

The reapers priority is SELF PRESERVATION as it is with any living thing. For them to continue living, they have to consume intelligent races.

It doesn't need to be any more complex then that because for them to "continue their species" they pretty much end ours, we aren't preserved as humans, were preserved as reapers.

The whole war is about self preservation, and if any inch of you thinks that being liquified for reaper fuel is "ascension", then you are already lost.

I completely agree. It's us or them.

All I'm saying is that that in itself is enough for me, I don't need the satisfaction of knowing the Reapers are "evil" or "stupid". It's a bad situation, but one of us has to die.

[byne]

SS2Dante wrote...

Ok, the problem is that people aren't seeing the inherent judgement calls when we use what we call "logic". I'll give the crossing the road example.

You cross the road, right? Course you do. Now, let's say the odds of being hit by a car and dying when you cross the road are 1 in a thousand. (making this number up obviously). Lets also assume you only cross the road once a year. Now, the average human lives to 100, say. That means crossing the road will, in all probability, NOT kill you. Logically, you can cross roads with little risk.

HOWEVER, if humans lived to the age of ten million years, crossing the road is tantamount to suicide. Because eventually...eventually...it'll happen. You'll get hit and die. It's all but certain it'll happen.

From your perspective, logic changes.

As a rough parallel to the case here, we humans live a very short lifespan in comparison to the Reapers, so we take bigger chances. To a Reaper, even if the chance of synthetics destroying organics is small, its still BOUND to happen. 

Now, once again, I'm not claiming certainty or understanding or agreement, simply pointing out that the starkids logic being faulty is based entirely on the human values of life, death, and chance.

Going by that logic, no matter how unlikely it is, one day a platypus will probably fly into space and destroy the Reapers, so they logically should kill every platypus in existence.

Except they dont, because the Reapers arent stupid enough to think that just because something COULD happen, that means it definitely will some day.

[SS2Dante]

pirate1802 wrote...

xaurabh123 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

xaurabh123 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...


Anyway, all of this is speculation. I'm just pointing out that the starkid is not blatently wrong and stupid like veryone is suggesting.

If the entire galaxy thinks you are blatantly wrong and stupid, you probably are. The Geth even end up fighting the reapers dude....

Are you trying to tell me this war was fought because we disagreed with the philosophy? It wasn't . The war was fought because they have a job to do and so do we. The goals clash. One of us has to die. I ain't letting it be us

So Bioware didnot have any better idea, just a flawed logic? Everyone in the galaxy is dying just because a freaking AI thinks some stupid logic.?

Flawed logic according to OUR standards. I keep having to repeat this. Must I make the crossing the road argument again?

As far as we know, all the things shepard did in the previous installments and in ME 3 was to make certain amount of ramification to the final output. But that Starchild Logic is presented to us which negates everything we did and we are not okay with it. There had to be other ways as the game always told us. That starchild gives us some crap options which are by the way all are same. Thats why we demand removing him and put a good story, like the ID theory. The reapers always claimed their motives were incomprehensible, does it actually mean "meaningless".

Nice to see an Indian here I'll be your fellow fleet-mate

Um...dude, not sure you understand IT. You can't remove the satrkid from it, he's essential to it :S

Actually, the point of IT is that you aren't removing or changing ANYTHING. It's all already there, waiting for people to see it.

[balance5050]

SS2Dante wrote...

Ok, the problem is that people aren't seeing the inherent judgement calls when we use what we call "logic". I'll give the crossing the road example.

You cross the road, right? Course you do. Now, let's say the odds of being hit by a car and dying when you cross the road are 1 in a thousand. (making this number up obviously). Lets also assume you only cross the road once a year. Now, the average human lives to 100, say. That means crossing the road will, in all probability, NOT kill you. Logically, you can cross roads with little risk.

HOWEVER, if humans lived to the age of ten million years, crossing the road is tantamount to suicide. Because eventually...eventually...it'll happen. You'll get hit and die. It's all but certain it'll happen.

From your perspective, logic changes.

As a rough parallel to the case here, we humans live a very short lifespan in comparison to the Reapers, so we take bigger chances. To a Reaper, even if the chance of synthetics destroying organics is small, its still BOUND to happen. 

Now, once again, I'm not claiming certainty or understanding or agreement, simply pointing out that the starkids logic being faulty is based entirely on the human values of life, death, and chance.

The only proof that this is "bound to happen" is the reapers themselves. It's like if someone killed their best friend because he knew that he was going to kill him first.

SHOULD WE ALL KILL OUR BEST FRIEND BECAUSE SOME RANDOM GUY A LONG TIME AGO WAS KILLED BY HIS?

Modifié par balance5050, 20 avril 2012 - 05:07 .

[llbountyhunter]

SS2Dante wrote...

byne wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

xaurabh123 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...


Anyway, all of this is speculation. I'm just pointing out that the starkid is not blatently wrong and stupid like veryone is suggesting.

If the entire galaxy thinks you are blatantly wrong and stupid, you probably are. The Geth even end up fighting the reapers dude....

Are you trying to tell me this war was fought because we disagreed with the philosophy? It wasn't . The war was fought because they have a job to do and so do we. The goals clash. One of us has to die. I ain't letting it be us

So Bioware didnot have any better idea, just a flawed logic? Everyone in the galaxy is dying just because a freaking AI thinks some stupid logic.?

Flawed logic according to OUR standards. I keep having to repeat this. Must I make the crossing the road argument again?

Your entire argument defending the Reapers boils down to "No man, you dont understand. It probably makes sense to them."

Thats not a compelling defense, my good man.

Ok, the problem is that people aren't seeing the inherent judgement calls when we use what we call "logic". I'll give the crossing the road example.

You cross the road, right? Course you do. Now, let's say the odds of being hit by a car and dying when you cross the road are 1 in a thousand. (making this number up obviously). Lets also assume you only cross the road once a year. Now, the average human lives to 100, say. That means crossing the road will, in all probability, NOT kill you. Logically, you can cross roads with little risk.

HOWEVER, if humans lived to the age of ten million years, crossing the road is tantamount to suicide. Because eventually...eventually...it'll happen. You'll get hit and die. It's all but certain it'll happen.

From your perspective, logic changes.

As a rough parallel to the case here, we humans live a very short lifespan in comparison to the Reapers, so we take bigger chances. To a Reaper, even if the chance of synthetics destroying organics is small, its still BOUND to happen. 

Now, once again, I'm not claiming certainty or understanding or agreement, simply pointing out that the starkids logic being faulty is based entirely on the human values of life, death, and chance.

That's like not asking any woman out because your bound to get rejected sooner or later. Don't go outside, something bad WILL happen at least one time....

[SS2Dante]

byne wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Ok, the problem is that people aren't seeing the inherent judgement calls when we use what we call "logic". I'll give the crossing the road example.

You cross the road, right? Course you do. Now, let's say the odds of being hit by a car and dying when you cross the road are 1 in a thousand. (making this number up obviously). Lets also assume you only cross the road once a year. Now, the average human lives to 100, say. That means crossing the road will, in all probability, NOT kill you. Logically, you can cross roads with little risk.

HOWEVER, if humans lived to the age of ten million years, crossing the road is tantamount to suicide. Because eventually...eventually...it'll happen. You'll get hit and die. It's all but certain it'll happen.

From your perspective, logic changes.

As a rough parallel to the case here, we humans live a very short lifespan in comparison to the Reapers, so we take bigger chances. To a Reaper, even if the chance of synthetics destroying organics is small, its still BOUND to happen. 

Now, once again, I'm not claiming certainty or understanding or agreement, simply pointing out that the starkids logic being faulty is based entirely on the human values of life, death, and chance.

Going by that logic, no matter how unlikely it is, one day a platypus will probably fly into space and destroy the Reapers, so they logically should kill every platypus in existence.

Except they dont, because the Reapers arent stupid enough to think that just because something COULD happen, that means it definitely will some day.

Yes, and by quantum theory the particles in a stone statues arm could all move in the same direction at once and it could wave at me. But in all probablity that will not happen. I prepare myself for the things that are likely. To a reaper, you have to weigh the possibility (near certain) to the prices (organicsgone FOREVER). Not worth the price.