57139 réponses à ce sujet

[DirtyPhoenix]

Well IT or not, I want Bioware to give clear-cut answer in the EC DLC. I'll be very unhappy if they still leave it "to our interpretation". Although i fear that's exactly what they will do. From what I understand of IT is that the real endgame is still to happen right? So if in the EC they still leave it in the air what do we get? Endgame happening in ME4? An expansion? I'll not hold my breath.

[Big Bad]

aargh my phone ate my comment!

Modifié par Big Bad, 20 avril 2012 - 05:11 .

[Vahilor]

SS2Dante wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

xaurabh123 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

xaurabh123 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...


Anyway, all of this is speculation. I'm just pointing out that the starkid is not blatently wrong and stupid like veryone is suggesting.

If the entire galaxy thinks you are blatantly wrong and stupid, you probably are. The Geth even end up fighting the reapers dude....

Are you trying to tell me this war was fought because we disagreed with the philosophy? It wasn't . The war was fought because they have a job to do and so do we. The goals clash. One of us has to die. I ain't letting it be us

So Bioware didnot have any better idea, just a flawed logic? Everyone in the galaxy is dying just because a freaking AI thinks some stupid logic.?

Flawed logic according to OUR standards. I keep having to repeat this. Must I make the crossing the road argument again?

As far as we know, all the things shepard did in the previous installments and in ME 3 was to make certain amount of ramification to the final output. But that Starchild Logic is presented to us which negates everything we did and we are not okay with it. There had to be other ways as the game always told us. That starchild gives us some crap options which are by the way all are same. Thats why we demand removing him and put a good story, like the ID theory. The reapers always claimed their motives were incomprehensible, does it actually mean "meaningless".

Nice to see an Indian here I'll be your fellow fleet-mate

Um...dude, not sure you understand IT. You can't remove the satrkid from it, he's essential to it :S

Actually, the point of IT is that you aren't removing or changing ANYTHING. It's all already there, waiting for people to see it.

But blasting Star Brat to hell and back would be pretty satisfing if IT is not supported by BW in the extended endings XD

[Rifneno]

llbountyhunter wrote...

So how can you argue FOR it if you aren't supposed to understand it yourself?

It's just become his go-to excuse for not having a good answer. "But they don't think like us!" Almost like the anti-IT's "because BW is lazy!" Most of his facts are actually completely wrong to boot. The geth weren't the aggressors, EDI was heavily provoked, non-"chosen" races are made into Reapers (Destroyers)...

Consider that Tali was brought up on lies about the geth and thus even what the character modeled after the Virgin Mary told us about AI's was a big ol' pile of crap, everyone will have to excuse me if I take whatever that lying douchebag Javik says about them with a truckload of salt.

[Skillz1986]

@ss2dante
final question.
So starchild figured out that advanced organic races, will eventually create ais which will eventually kill all organic life. he decided that this is pretty much messed up, and created the reapers to prevwnt this (maybe not created..found..or something)

Anyway..in order to come to this conclusion. this must have happened at least once right? He must have deduced his solution based on the fact, that it already happened. you know, the synthetics whiping out ALL organics.

Going with your crossing the roads example..it must have had happened even more times, so starchild could figure out, that there's a big chance it will happen frequently.

How come organics are still present?

[SS2Dante]

llbountyhunter wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

byne wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

xaurabh123 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...


Anyway, all of this is speculation. I'm just pointing out that the starkid is not blatently wrong and stupid like veryone is suggesting.

If the entire galaxy thinks you are blatantly wrong and stupid, you probably are. The Geth even end up fighting the reapers dude....

Are you trying to tell me this war was fought because we disagreed with the philosophy? It wasn't . The war was fought because they have a job to do and so do we. The goals clash. One of us has to die. I ain't letting it be us

So Bioware didnot have any better idea, just a flawed logic? Everyone in the galaxy is dying just because a freaking AI thinks some stupid logic.?

Flawed logic according to OUR standards. I keep having to repeat this. Must I make the crossing the road argument again?

Your entire argument defending the Reapers boils down to "No man, you dont understand. It probably makes sense to them."

Thats not a compelling defense, my good man.

Ok, the problem is that people aren't seeing the inherent judgement calls when we use what we call "logic". I'll give the crossing the road example.

You cross the road, right? Course you do. Now, let's say the odds of being hit by a car and dying when you cross the road are 1 in a thousand. (making this number up obviously). Lets also assume you only cross the road once a year. Now, the average human lives to 100, say. That means crossing the road will, in all probability, NOT kill you. Logically, you can cross roads with little risk.

HOWEVER, if humans lived to the age of ten million years, crossing the road is tantamount to suicide. Because eventually...eventually...it'll happen. You'll get hit and die. It's all but certain it'll happen.

From your perspective, logic changes.

As a rough parallel to the case here, we humans live a very short lifespan in comparison to the Reapers, so we take bigger chances. To a Reaper, even if the chance of synthetics destroying organics is small, its still BOUND to happen. 

Now, once again, I'm not claiming certainty or understanding or agreement, simply pointing out that the starkids logic being faulty is based entirely on the human values of life, death, and chance.

That's like not asking any woman out because your bound to get rejected sooner or later. Don't go outside, something bad WILL happen at least one time....

If, when asking a woman out and she said no, there was a one in 5 possibility you would die, right there of a heart attack, how many women would you ask out? It's all about weighing RISK against the consequences, The reapers have one shot at this, essentially, since we don't know how often organic life springs into eexistance. So if ANYTHING goes wrong, that;s it. Game over.

Modifié par SS2Dante, 20 avril 2012 - 05:10 .

[balance5050]

SS2Dante wrote...

Yes, and by quantum theory the particles in a stone statues arm could all move in the same direction at once and it could wave at me. But in all probablity that will not happen. I prepare myself for the things that are likely. To a reaper, you have to weigh the possibility (near certain) to the prices (organicsgone FOREVER). Not worth the price.

The only reason it's not worth the price is because they use us for fuel, organics gone = reapers gone. The circular logic is a rouse to get you to side with them (fundamentaly).

Modifié par balance5050, 20 avril 2012 - 05:12 .

[SS2Dante]

balance5050 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Ok, the problem is that people aren't seeing the inherent judgement calls when we use what we call "logic". I'll give the crossing the road example.

You cross the road, right? Course you do. Now, let's say the odds of being hit by a car and dying when you cross the road are 1 in a thousand. (making this number up obviously). Lets also assume you only cross the road once a year. Now, the average human lives to 100, say. That means crossing the road will, in all probability, NOT kill you. Logically, you can cross roads with little risk.

HOWEVER, if humans lived to the age of ten million years, crossing the road is tantamount to suicide. Because eventually...eventually...it'll happen. You'll get hit and die. It's all but certain it'll happen.

From your perspective, logic changes.

As a rough parallel to the case here, we humans live a very short lifespan in comparison to the Reapers, so we take bigger chances. To a Reaper, even if the chance of synthetics destroying organics is small, its still BOUND to happen. 

Now, once again, I'm not claiming certainty or understanding or agreement, simply pointing out that the starkids logic being faulty is based entirely on the human values of life, death, and chance.

The only proof that this is "bound to happen" is the reapers themselves. It's like if someone killed their best friend because he knew that he was going to kill him first.

SHOULD WE ALL KILL OUR BEST FRIEND BECAUSE SOME RANDOM GUY A LONG TIME AGO WAS KILLED BY HIS?

Yes, it's all theoretical. My point is that they have calculated that the odds of synthetics destroying organics is higher than the risk of NOT doing the cycle. They only get ONE shot at this. They cannot afford to take risks.

[Iconoclaste]

Relying on statistics, we should not fly planes because there will be accidents.

[SS2Dante]

balance5050 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Yes, and by quantum theory the particles in a stone statues arm could all move in the same direction at once and it could wave at me. But in all probablity that will not happen. I prepare myself for the things that are likely. To a reaper, you have to weigh the possibility (near certain) to the prices (organicsgone FOREVER). Not worth the price.

The only reason it's not worth the price is because they use us for fuel, organics gone = reapers gone. The circular logic is a rouse to get you to side with them (fundamentaly).

I'm fine with that argument.

However, once again, I do not SIDE with them, I'm getting quite frustrated with peoplesaying this. They have made a judgement call and so have we. Our results are different. Just because you understand how someone came about a decision does not mean you agree with it.

[balance5050]

Guys, I think we're losing SS2Dante to indoctrination.

[byne]

SS2Dante wrote...


Yes, and by quantum theory the particles in a stone statues arm could all move in the same direction at once and it could wave at me. But in all probablity that will not happen. I prepare myself for the things that are likely. To a reaper, you have to weigh the possibility (near certain) to the prices (organicsgone FOREVER). Not worth the price.

If the possibility of creating synthetics that will eventually turn on them is near certain, why do the Reapers wait until the organics are advanced enough to put up a fight to harvest them?

Why wouldnt the Reapers have come in during every species' equivalent of the bronze age, when they first start showing they're on the path to eventually having advanced technology, and easily harvest them then?

You could say 'Well, they havent shown that they're going to make synthetics yet', and while I'd agree, your reasoning has been 'Its near certain it will happen to a being that lives millions of years. They dont look at the individual case,' so they'd really have no reason not to step in early.

Especially since waiting until the organics can fight back risks losing a Reaper, and thus losing the entire species they forced to ascend to make it.


Anyhow, I've gotta leave for a while, so I wont respond after this.

[Ravel1992]

byne wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Skillz1986 wrote...

@ss2dante

the geth were on the verge of losing the second war. onl because the reeapers helped them they managed to fight back. the problem would have been solved..no synthetics to whipe out organics. that's their whole point right? Why the hell did they help the geth?

Because the cycle is coming to an end. Look, a machine doesn't look at individual cases, it just sees patterns. Even if the quarian and Geth get along great, soon another AI war will spring up. It might be in 100 years, or a thousand, or a thousand thousand, to the Reapers it makes no difference. Eventually the AI will rise up and fight, and destroy. The cycle prevents this.

That still doesnt explain why the Reapers didnt just let the quarians destroy the geth. The cycle is coming to an end, and if the quarians dont kill the geth, the Reapers are going to have to do it themselves.

Btw godchild never said that Reapers will kill synthetics.

[SS2Dante]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Relying on statistics, we should not fly planes because there will be accidents.

Actually, when weighed against our lifespans, we will NOT be killed in planes. The risk is minimal.

Seriously, if you want to argue great, but understand the basic principle first.

[balance5050]

SS2Dante wrote...

balance5050

SHOULD WE ALL KILL OUR BEST FRIEND BECAUSE SOME RANDOM GUY A LONG TIME AGO WAS KILLED BY HIS?

Yes

...

Modifié par balance5050, 20 avril 2012 - 05:16 .

[SS2Dante]

Ravel1992 wrote...

byne wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Skillz1986 wrote...

@ss2dante

the geth were on the verge of losing the second war. onl because the reeapers helped them they managed to fight back. the problem would have been solved..no synthetics to whipe out organics. that's their whole point right? Why the hell did they help the geth?

Because the cycle is coming to an end. Look, a machine doesn't look at individual cases, it just sees patterns. Even if the quarian and Geth get along great, soon another AI war will spring up. It might be in 100 years, or a thousand, or a thousand thousand, to the Reapers it makes no difference. Eventually the AI will rise up and fight, and destroy. The cycle prevents this.

That still doesnt explain why the Reapers didnt just let the quarians destroy the geth. The cycle is coming to an end, and if the quarians dont kill the geth, the Reapers are going to have to do it themselves.

Btw godchild never said that Reapers will kill synthetics.

Aaaah now that's a more interesting point, isn't it? Why oh why can we see no synthetics from the previous cycles?

[Iconoclaste]

SS2Dante wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

Relying on statistics, we should not fly planes because there will be accidents.

Actually, when weighed against our lifespans, we will NOT be killed in planes. The risk is minimal.

Seriously, if you want to argue great, but understand the basic principle first.

Behave or get lost.

You could get killed on your first flight, there is nothing the statistics could prove against that.

[balance5050]

SS2Dante wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

Relying on statistics, we should not fly planes because there will be accidents.

Actually, when weighed against our lifespans, we will NOT be killed in planes. The risk is minimal.

Seriously, if you want to argue great, but understand the basic principle first.

Exactly, the risk is minimal that Synthetics will take over because it has only happened ONCE. With the Reapers themselves.

[lex0r11]

Somewhat unrelated but i just saw the stats of my gallery..
Why does sad Shepard have more views than Blue Baby?

Unacceptable.

[Big Bad]

If star child wants to convince me that we live in a completely deterministic universe where organic organisms will inevitably be completely extinguished by synthetics, i want to see the math first!

[Skillz1986]

@ss2dante final question.
So starchild figured out that advanced organic races, will eventually create ais which will eventually kill all organic life. he decided that this is pretty much messed up, and created the reapers to prevwnt this (maybe not created..found..or something)

Anyway..in order to come to this conclusion. this must have happened at least once right? He must have deduced his solution based on the fact, that it already happened. you know, the synthetics whiping out ALL organics.

Going with your crossing the roads example..it must have had happened even more times, so starchild could figure out, that there's a big chance it will happen frequently. How come organics are still present?

[MaximizedAction]

SS2Dante wrote...

Ravel1992 wrote...

byne wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Skillz1986 wrote...

@ss2dante

the geth were on the verge of losing the second war. onl because the reeapers helped them they managed to fight back. the problem would have been solved..no synthetics to whipe out organics. that's their whole point right? Why the hell did they help the geth?

Because the cycle is coming to an end. Look, a machine doesn't look at individual cases, it just sees patterns. Even if the quarian and Geth get along great, soon another AI war will spring up. It might be in 100 years, or a thousand, or a thousand thousand, to the Reapers it makes no difference. Eventually the AI will rise up and fight, and destroy. The cycle prevents this.

That still doesnt explain why the Reapers didnt just let the quarians destroy the geth. The cycle is coming to an end, and if the quarians dont kill the geth, the Reapers are going to have to do it themselves.

Btw godchild never said that Reapers will kill synthetics.

Aaaah now that's a more interesting point, isn't it? Why oh why can we see no synthetics from the previous cycles?

Came to wonder about this a few days ago.

My proposition for an answer: The Reapers managed to kill advanced organics soon enough, so they couldn't build synthetics.
But then again, I'm not sure whether Javik told us about synthetics in his cycle...

[Vahilor]

lex0r11 wrote...

Somewhat unrelated but i just saw the stats of my gallery..
Why does sad Shepard have more views than Blue Baby?

Unacceptable.

Because Shep is much cooler than blue Babys and not everyone likes Asari

[llbountyhunter]

SS2Dante wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

byne wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

xaurabh123 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...


Anyway, all of this is speculation. I'm just pointing out that the starkid is not blatently wrong and stupid like veryone is suggesting.

If the entire galaxy thinks you are blatantly wrong and stupid, you probably are. The Geth even end up fighting the reapers dude....

Are you trying to tell me this war was fought because we disagreed with the philosophy? It wasn't . The war was fought because they have a job to do and so do we. The goals clash. One of us has to die. I ain't letting it be us

So Bioware didnot have any better idea, just a flawed logic? Everyone in the galaxy is dying just because a freaking AI thinks some stupid logic.?

Flawed logic according to OUR standards. I keep having to repeat this. Must I make the crossing the road argument again?

Your entire argument defending the Reapers boils down to "No man, you dont understand. It probably makes sense to them."

Thats not a compelling defense, my good man.

Ok, the problem is that people aren't seeing the inherent judgement calls when we use what we call "logic". I'll give the crossing the road example.

You cross the road, right? Course you do. Now, let's say the odds of being hit by a car and dying when you cross the road are 1 in a thousand. (making this number up obviously). Lets also assume you only cross the road once a year. Now, the average human lives to 100, say. That means crossing the road will, in all probability, NOT kill you. Logically, you can cross roads with little risk.

HOWEVER, if humans lived to the age of ten million years, crossing the road is tantamount to suicide. Because eventually...eventually...it'll happen. You'll get hit and die. It's all but certain it'll happen.

From your perspective, logic changes.

As a rough parallel to the case here, we humans live a very short lifespan in comparison to the Reapers, so we take bigger chances. To a Reaper, even if the chance of synthetics destroying organics is small, its still BOUND to happen. 

Now, once again, I'm not claiming certainty or understanding or agreement, simply pointing out that the starkids logic being faulty is based entirely on the human values of life, death, and chance.

That's like not asking any woman out because your bound to get rejected sooner or later. Don't go outside, something bad WILL happen at least one time....

If, when asking a woman out and she said no, there was a one in 5 possibility you would die, right there of a heart attack, how many women would you ask out? It's all about weighing RISK against the consequences, The reapers have one shot at this, essentially, since we don't know how often organic life springs into eexistance. So if ANYTHING goes wrong, that;s it. Game over.

I think I would still ask women out. The pros out weight the cons. Same with AI. .

[SS2Dante]

byne wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...


Yes, and by quantum theory the particles in a stone statues arm could all move in the same direction at once and it could wave at me. But in all probablity that will not happen. I prepare myself for the things that are likely. To a reaper, you have to weigh the possibility (near certain) to the prices (organicsgone FOREVER). Not worth the price.

If the possibility of creating synthetics that will eventually turn on them is near certain, why do the Reapers wait until the organics are advanced enough to put up a fight to harvest them?

Why wouldnt the Reapers have come in during every species' equivalent of the bronze age, when they first start showing they're on the path to eventually having advanced technology, and easily harvest them then?

You could say 'Well, they havent shown that they're going to make synthetics yet', and while I'd agree, your reasoning has been 'Its near certain it will happen to a being that lives millions of years. They dont look at the individual case,' so they'd really have no reason not to step in early.

Especially since waiting until the organics can fight back risks losing a Reaper, and thus losing the entire species they forced to ascend to make it.


Anyhow, I've gotta leave for a while, so I wont respond after this.

Again, speculation. They have made a 50000 year cycle. I wonder why? We know they hibernate during this time. One possible idea is that they need to wait until galactic civilisation is populous enough to "feed" them. Obvioulsly this require spaceflight and FTL drives, and I imagine usually coincides with the first AI research.

It's an incomplete information puzzle, therefore unsolvable at the moment, but we're calling them "stupid" before we've seen all the pieces of the puzzle. That strikes me as unwise.