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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#40426
Auralius Carolus

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SS2Dante wrote...

Henioo wrote...

I was just playing for a second time through the London mission, this time with headphones on. When I got to the Hammer HQ or whatever it was I swear I could hear "sleep breathing" in the background, especially when inside of buildings. Now, my headphones aren't great so I'm not sure if maybe that's just some other noise that sounds like breathing because of its poor quality.

Has anyone noticed this? :)


Sorry guy, didn't notice.

HOWEVER something you wanna listen out for in the scene with Anderson and TIM in the citadel.

The dream whispers. Noooo idea how I missed them, they're not even very quiet. Easier to hear with earphones/headphones of course, so listen out for it.

And the catalyst decision music (the DUM DUM) happens when TIM first appears in that same scene ;)


This is likely becaue of the energy field used by TIM to control Anderson and Shepard. Exactly how he does it without overcoming their minds is, of course, a mystery, but it can be presumed a form of indoctrination.

And the music could simply used to dramatic effect.

#40427
BatmanTurian

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SS2Dante wrote...

LumbercracK wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

LumbercracK wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

LumbercracK wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

What I mean is that gameplay attitudes and real world attitudes don't sync up in a lot of the renegade choices. Being cacually racist? that'd be renegade, and people only make those choices for "fun", not because it's what they believe (not saying this about all renegade choices, I was renegade with regards to genophage, but a lot of them are). The indcotrination process is for the player, not shepard, and I bet nearly 100% of players who TRUST the starchild could identify the "good" and "bad" choice. Now, anyone conciously choosing the "bad" choice, knowing they had two other alternatives that were clearly more "good" in every way, is either NOT taking the game seriously, or...well, they're not taking it seriously. Choosing destroy if you believe starkid is telling the truth is the same as choosing a needless genocide AND suicide at the same time. The developers count on the PLAYER to recognise this, and therefore go either blue or green. That is why the option never changes


- besides, if the option changed IT would be waaaaay too obvious.


Nice. Conspiracy theorists use that one all the time. First off it wouldnt be too obvoius because you wouldnt know until your second playthrough. Second off why is it assumed that a player has to feel the geth are even alive. Why is it considered genocide automatically. 

the truth is if it were IT the player would be placed with options that mattered to HIM. Regardless of wether or not he is genuinely playing. If IT were true ruthless shep would be a boring playthgrough and thus a pointless option as your given an auto win status because you dont care about the geth.


The internet. The internet. You wouldn't need two playthroughs. 

...seriously? Why is it you seem to think everyone HATES the geth? And EDI? Both are very deliberately made  to be likeable. I haven't met a single person, nor heard of a single person, who had any sort of animosity towards them. Plus, AI is defnitely "life" in this game, that's made abundently clear, so even if you don't like them it's still genocide. And you ignored the suicide part. Anyone playing your version of the game would have to be actively AIMING to kill all the geth in the universe.


Its not that their out to kill the geth. Its that the geth dying does not bother them. Nothing is defined in this game thats the point. You have to decide wether geth life is valuable or not.
And you cant make a game with the mindset of OHHH there gonna use the internet before they play. Then theirs no point.

And now onto the nail in the coffin.
So you say making IT cater to the specific sheppards current veiws to try to coerce him to choose control wouldnt work because the internet would ruin the suprise of it. Well if IT was their intention someone would have said "hey what happens when they google our game and hear what other people are saying about it."

And im sorry but if their are people who can legitimately kill mordin out their then there are people who can ignore the geth genocide.





No, not before. After. They want lots of speculation, that's been established. The fact that something pretty major changes in each of our endings is hardly subtle is it? We'd all pick up on that immediately.

No, I didn't. I didn't say that at all. I stated that in the ending you are given two choices, one of which results in the deaths of millions, the death of your pilots best friend, and your own, as well as implying that the cycle will continue and your decision only helps in the short term.

VERSUS the other two, which results in you achieving a higher state of conciousness and no deaths at all, a well as defnitely ending the cyle. Now, tell me, what sane human being, who took any of the story seriously, would pick red?

People killed Mordin because he put them against the wall. They didn't kill him for the lulz.


People killed mordin because they saw more value in the salarian fleet then the freedom of the krogan / personal integrity. Those people doomed the krogan to the genophage forever. Whats it to say someone cant do the sme to the geth, A debatably lliving entity.

A sane human being who uses the internet realizes the galaxy is screwed without relays. He sees that synthesis is a confusing and misguided answer that acctually solves nothing. He sees that control will not save the galaxy. He sees that the relays will always be gone and the only option that gets rid of the reapers for sure is destroy.




Yes. And? No point in having personal integrity if everyone is dead cos you didn't have a big enough fleet. There are zero benefits to killing the geth, who, as it has been pointed out, would already be dead by this point if you don't like them

...you imply doubt about the starchilds abilities while denying IT.

...guys, help?
..guys? Help?


I don't understand what you guys are arguing about here....

#40428
LumbercracK

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BatmanTurian wrote...

LumbercracK wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

*conspiracykeanu.jpg*

What if Reapers kill organics to reproduce but also so that the organics won't create synthetics that might one day be a threat/competitor/predator to the Reapers? What if it's not about protecting Organics and it's only about protecting the Reapers themselves from the only thing (besides a united galaxy of billions of organics) that could threaten them, rival fellow Super-Synthetics?  :o


lol
That would be a better explanation for everything but it makes the choices more confusing in the end


it doesn't make things more confusing, it just means they're still hiding their true motives and lying to the species they harvest.


Im sorry i dont like the THERE LYING TO US idea.
Yes we have no reason to assume they are being honest but how are we supposed to do anything if we have 0 information we can trust.

#40429
Arian Dynas

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Bumping before this gets buried, since this thread moves so damn fast...

Also, an interesting thing I noticed. During the fight with him, one of the things Kai Leng says is "We evolve, or we die" recall that Leng is fully indoctrinated. A bit more fodder for the "Reapers see themselves as the end of evolution" theory.

Arian Dynas wrote...

I've been thinking about it, and I think I've got the Reapers figured out.

Here's the "birth" of the Reapers in my opinion;

Long ago in the Milky Way, a species arises, skilled in both science and war, they are among the first to discover the Mass Effect and move out into the stars. They make many enemies along the way, perhaps even forming an empire in the process, seeking to integrate others into their might, perhaps seeing their wars as a sort of sick philanthrophism, granting might to the weak, and unity to the individual, but in the end, they are pushed back to their home world, a dying rock, exhausted by it's population. Calamity strikes, quickly and effectively, leaving them with little time.

They realize they must leave, or they will face extinction, there is no time to take everyone with them via ship, they simply don't have the means, and would far prefer to avoid becoming an endangered species in a galaxy out for their blood. So they turn to technology to preserve both their strength, and their legacy.

Their grim sciences which made them masters of what they saw, are now put to use saving their species from the ravages of natural selection. They come to a realization. Though they will never transport their bodies off, nothing precludes the traveling of the mind.

Repurposing the flagship of their fleet, the greatest of their ships, they begin to improve it, making it a worthy vessel for their continued existence, though they find themselves lacking for materials. Turning again to desperation, they use their own bodies, their sciences having made them as equally skilled in the manipulation of flesh as the manipulation of metal.

Finally, their ship is all but complete, when a mighty scientist and military mind comes to an important realization. What if the ship is damaged? She will need physical crew to repair her, and there shall be no physical crew remaining from their great work's completion. 

He finds the soloution. Their species is known for the skill at manipulating the minds of others, a technology they long discovered, and one they integrate into every aspect of their ship's technology, a power that will allow them to go to war, and if ever is needed, melt down and integrate whatever building materials they need.

Thus, with the collected minds of an entire species embodied in one physical form, they leave behind their dying planet, the minds forming into one gestalt entity. And thus is born Harbinger.

Harbinger revels in his new form, a single mind, formed of many. He chooses to take this opportunity to settle old scores, using the mightiest capital ship that ever has, or ever will be seen.

After facing his own near destruction, Harbinger comes to the realization that alone, he is vulneruable. 
He comes to the realization that HE is the pinnacle of creation, the greatest of all beings that has ever existed, or ever will exist. He also realizes that his is a form that all others should aspire to, NAY! A form they should be FORCED into if need be.

Forcing other species into a form such as his is doing them a kindness, allowing them the perfection of a form like his own. He conquers several of his old enemies, turning the greatest of them into capital ships, while others, those he finds more pathetic and simple, are merely made into his destroyers. Animals of all shapes and descriptions are not exempt either, rather than leaving them to die on a planet with a shattered biosphere, he creates the first Troop Transports and Processing Ships ships from their raw materials, beginning the creation of his armada.

Finally, with a galaxy stripped of his enemies, both great and small. Harbinger finds himself and his fleet without purpose, their war won forever. He then comes to a realization, life will arise again in the Milky Way, more great species will be born to accomplish great things as his own did. He could exterminate all life now if he chose.

Instead, he chooses to grant them the kindness of perfection, the opportunity to rise to his level, the peak of evolution. Though he becomes aware, they will certainly become a threat to him, so he chooses to do what his species was know best for, and turns to science. He realizes that if he provides an easy, accessable route for them, they will take it, giving him a method of control oever them. And so, the Reapers as they have now termed themselves, begin to sow the seeds of their crop of flesh, creating the Mass Relays, repurposing old enemies as the Keepers, and preparing to wait for a new crop to rise...




#40430
balance5050

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LumbercracK wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

LumbercracK wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

*conspiracykeanu.jpg*

What if Reapers kill organics to reproduce but also so that the organics won't create synthetics that might one day be a threat/competitor/predator to the Reapers? What if it's not about protecting Organics and it's only about protecting the Reapers themselves from the only thing (besides a united galaxy of billions of organics) that could threaten them, rival fellow Super-Synthetics?  :o


lol
That would be a better explanation for everything but it makes the choices more confusing in the end


it doesn't make things more confusing, it just means they're still hiding their true motives and lying to the species they harvest.


Im sorry i dont like the THERE LYING TO US idea.
Yes we have no reason to assume they are being honest but how are we supposed to do anything if we have 0 information we can trust.


Nobody likes being lied to, the information you are supposed to trust is everything you have learned up until that point.

Modifié par balance5050, 20 avril 2012 - 10:46 .


#40431
BatmanTurian

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LumbercracK wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

LumbercracK wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

*conspiracykeanu.jpg*

What if Reapers kill organics to reproduce but also so that the organics won't create synthetics that might one day be a threat/competitor/predator to the Reapers? What if it's not about protecting Organics and it's only about protecting the Reapers themselves from the only thing (besides a united galaxy of billions of organics) that could threaten them, rival fellow Super-Synthetics?  :o


lol
That would be a better explanation for everything but it makes the choices more confusing in the end


it doesn't make things more confusing, it just means they're still hiding their true motives and lying to the species they harvest.


Im sorry i dont like the THERE LYING TO US idea.
Yes we have no reason to assume they are being honest but how are we supposed to do anything if we have 0 information we can trust.


They've demonstratedly lied in the past. They are evil (according to our morals) and have no compunction lying to what they consider lower life-forms. How you can't understand that an antagonist can lie is beyond me.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 20 avril 2012 - 10:48 .


#40432
Arian Dynas

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BatmanTurian wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

I've been thinking about it, and I think I've got the Reapers figured out.

Here's the "birth" of the Reapers in my opinion; ...

http://social.biowar...3/1618#11573582 


I love your theory and I wish to subsribe to your newsletter.


:blink: I haven't a newsletter. :?

#40433
LumbercracK

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SS2Dante wrote...

LumbercracK wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

LumbercracK wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

LumbercracK wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

What I mean is that gameplay attitudes and real world attitudes don't sync up in a lot of the renegade choices. Being cacually racist? that'd be renegade, and people only make those choices for "fun", not because it's what they believe (not saying this about all renegade choices, I was renegade with regards to genophage, but a lot of them are). The indcotrination process is for the player, not shepard, and I bet nearly 100% of players who TRUST the starchild could identify the "good" and "bad" choice. Now, anyone conciously choosing the "bad" choice, knowing they had two other alternatives that were clearly more "good" in every way, is either NOT taking the game seriously, or...well, they're not taking it seriously. Choosing destroy if you believe starkid is telling the truth is the same as choosing a needless genocide AND suicide at the same time. The developers count on the PLAYER to recognise this, and therefore go either blue or green. That is why the option never changes


- besides, if the option changed IT would be waaaaay too obvious.


Nice. Conspiracy theorists use that one all the time. First off it wouldnt be too obvoius because you wouldnt know until your second playthrough. Second off why is it assumed that a player has to feel the geth are even alive. Why is it considered genocide automatically. 

the truth is if it were IT the player would be placed with options that mattered to HIM. Regardless of wether or not he is genuinely playing. If IT were true ruthless shep would be a boring playthgrough and thus a pointless option as your given an auto win status because you dont care about the geth.


The internet. The internet. You wouldn't need two playthroughs. 

...seriously? Why is it you seem to think everyone HATES the geth? And EDI? Both are very deliberately made  to be likeable. I haven't met a single person, nor heard of a single person, who had any sort of animosity towards them. Plus, AI is defnitely "life" in this game, that's made abundently clear, so even if you don't like them it's still genocide. And you ignored the suicide part. Anyone playing your version of the game would have to be actively AIMING to kill all the geth in the universe.


Its not that their out to kill the geth. Its that the geth dying does not bother them. Nothing is defined in this game thats the point. You have to decide wether geth life is valuable or not.
And you cant make a game with the mindset of OHHH there gonna use the internet before they play. Then theirs no point.

And now onto the nail in the coffin.
So you say making IT cater to the specific sheppards current veiws to try to coerce him to choose control wouldnt work because the internet would ruin the suprise of it. Well if IT was their intention someone would have said "hey what happens when they google our game and hear what other people are saying about it."

And im sorry but if their are people who can legitimately kill mordin out their then there are people who can ignore the geth genocide.





No, not before. After. They want lots of speculation, that's been established. The fact that something pretty major changes in each of our endings is hardly subtle is it? We'd all pick up on that immediately.

No, I didn't. I didn't say that at all. I stated that in the ending you are given two choices, one of which results in the deaths of millions, the death of your pilots best friend, and your own, as well as implying that the cycle will continue and your decision only helps in the short term.

VERSUS the other two, which results in you achieving a higher state of conciousness and no deaths at all, a well as defnitely ending the cyle. Now, tell me, what sane human being, who took any of the story seriously, would pick red?

People killed Mordin because he put them against the wall. They didn't kill him for the lulz.


People killed mordin because they saw more value in the salarian fleet then the freedom of the krogan / personal integrity. Those people doomed the krogan to the genophage forever. Whats it to say someone cant do the sme to the geth, A debatably lliving entity.

A sane human being who uses the internet realizes the galaxy is screwed without relays. He sees that synthesis is a confusing and misguided answer that acctually solves nothing. He sees that control will not save the galaxy. He sees that the relays will always be gone and the only option that gets rid of the reapers for sure is destroy.




Yes. And? No point in having personal integrity if everyone is dead cos you didn't have a big enough fleet. There are zero benefits to killing the geth, who, as it has been pointed out, would already be dead by this point if you don't like them

...you imply doubt about the starchilds abilities while denying IT.

...guys, help?
..guys? Help?


The descision of wether integrity matters is a part of the game dude. You cant just throw YOUR value system into the argument to make your point. This game is about all kinds of mindsets being able to make their decisions. Your telling me destroy is a nonviable option because noone wants to kill the geth ever. Yet you elude to the fact that the geth may already be dead. Your playthrough allows you to decide the fate of the geth quarian and krogan races. Why would destruction of one of these races be a non choice.

I do not doubt star childs ability. I doubt his logic. I doubt synthesis solves anything. Hybrids can still make full synthetics. What do the geth and reapers become? How does being part robot make peace. We had war with organics already. Synthesis is a stupid option that makes no sense. 

#40434
Auralius Carolus

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BatmanTurian wrote...

LumbercracK wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

LumbercracK wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

*conspiracykeanu.jpg*

What if Reapers kill organics to reproduce but also so that the organics won't create synthetics that might one day be a threat/competitor/predator to the Reapers? What if it's not about protecting Organics and it's only about protecting the Reapers themselves from the only thing (besides a united galaxy of billions of organics) that could threaten them, rival fellow Super-Synthetics?  :o


lol
That would be a better explanation for everything but it makes the choices more confusing in the end


it doesn't make things more confusing, it just means they're still hiding their true motives and lying to the species they harvest.


Im sorry i dont like the THERE LYING TO US idea.
Yes we have no reason to assume they are being honest but how are we supposed to do anything if we have 0 information we can trust.


They've demonstratedly lied in the past. They are evil (according to our morals) and have no compunction lying to what they consider lower life-forms. How you can't understand that an antagonist can lie is beyond me.


Manipulation is at the core of their behavior when violence is not.

#40435
SS2Dante

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Auralius Carolus wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Henioo wrote...

I was just playing for a second time through the London mission, this time with headphones on. When I got to the Hammer HQ or whatever it was I swear I could hear "sleep breathing" in the background, especially when inside of buildings. Now, my headphones aren't great so I'm not sure if maybe that's just some other noise that sounds like breathing because of its poor quality.

Has anyone noticed this? :)


Sorry guy, didn't notice.

HOWEVER something you wanna listen out for in the scene with Anderson and TIM in the citadel.

The dream whispers. Noooo idea how I missed them, they're not even very quiet. Easier to hear with earphones/headphones of course, so listen out for it.

And the catalyst decision music (the DUM DUM) happens when TIM first appears in that same scene ;)


This is likely becaue of the energy field used by TIM to control Anderson and Shepard. Exactly how he does it without overcoming their minds is, of course, a mystery, but it can be presumed a form of indoctrination.

And the music could simply used to dramatic effect.


It's heavily implied, even in the literal interpretation, that they are trying to indoctrinate you in this scene. (the wavy black outline, TIM obviously being indoctrinated, and reaper growls all throughout the convo). Now, in the literal interpretation the whispers are NOT signs of indoctrination, they are signs of your PTSD. They shouldn't be in this scene at all. If they are, then it implies they are related to indoctrination.

Theming. Theming at all times. They actually use a deep basy "booom" to indicate the start of the whispers (when you first see Anderson paralysed). Why not just use a generic noise like that for effect? They have deliberately used a noise return players will recognise as one only ever occuring in the crucible decision chamber. Music is very carefully tuned and placed in games. Literal doesn't explain the odd decision. IT does, because IT says tha the TIM conversation and the starchild one are the same thing, but in the starchild you've lost theAnderson-will, so you can't recognise it as a trap.

#40436
BatmanTurian

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Let me re-frame what I'm saying. The Reapers could be consciously turning organics into Reapers not just to reproduce, but also to make sure they are top dog and that other synthetics can never rise up to replace them. The synthetics from the last cycle are gone. They were used by the Reapers and then destroyed and also destroyed by the organics of the last cycle.

I think it might be about a larger instinct for the Reapers to survive by keeping competition from ever forming. Meanwhile, they give organics the line that they're saving organics from creating synthetics to kill organics blah blah. It's circular logic because it's a lie.

#40437
Arian Dynas

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Auralius Carolus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

LumbercracK wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

LumbercracK wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

*conspiracykeanu.jpg*

What if Reapers kill organics to reproduce but also so that the organics won't create synthetics that might one day be a threat/competitor/predator to the Reapers? What if it's not about protecting Organics and it's only about protecting the Reapers themselves from the only thing (besides a united galaxy of billions of organics) that could threaten them, rival fellow Super-Synthetics?  :o


lol
That would be a better explanation for everything but it makes the choices more confusing in the end


it doesn't make things more confusing, it just means they're still hiding their true motives and lying to the species they harvest.


Im sorry i dont like the THERE LYING TO US idea.
Yes we have no reason to assume they are being honest but how are we supposed to do anything if we have 0 information we can trust.


They've demonstratedly lied in the past. They are evil (according to our morals) and have no compunction lying to what they consider lower life-forms. How you can't understand that an antagonist can lie is beyond me.


Manipulation is at the core of their behavior when violence is not.


The Reapers are NOTHING if not manipulators.

Skilled at psychological warfare, skilled at manipulation (pretending to sue for peace so they can indoctrinate organic leaders comes to mind, so does my own theory that the "Beings of Light" are merely the Reapers playing "good cop") 

In fact, indoctrination itself is manipulation.

Indoctrination is damning not because they force you to follow their way of thinking, but because they put you in a suitation where you can't help but agree with it.

#40438
BatmanTurian

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Auralius Carolus wrote...
Manipulation is at the core of their behavior when violence is not.


Exactly, I'm saying they manipulate organics to create an impossibility of super-synthetics like themselves from ever forming. Organics are their enemies because they would create the rival super-synthetics. I think this might be their true motive. It makes more sense than Star-child's logic, who we already know has pants that are always on fire.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 20 avril 2012 - 10:57 .


#40439
balance5050

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BatmanTurian wrote...

Let me re-frame what I'm saying. The Reapers could be consciously turning organics into Reapers not just to reproduce, but also to make sure they are top dog and that other synthetics can never rise up to replace them. The synthetics from the last cycle are gone. They were used by the Reapers and then destroyed and also destroyed by the organics of the last cycle.

I think it might be about a larger instinct for the Reapers to survive by keeping competition from ever forming. Meanwhile, they give organics the line that they're saving organics from creating synthetics to kill organics blah blah. It's circular logic because it's a lie.


I agree with this. Also Casey has said numerous occasions that he wanted to keep mystery around the reapers. There's not much mystery if we truly know their purpose (to preserve), but if that's just BS then it's still a mystery... YAY!

#40440
LumbercracK

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BatmanTurian wrote...

LumbercracK wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

LumbercracK wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

*conspiracykeanu.jpg*

What if Reapers kill organics to reproduce but also so that the organics won't create synthetics that might one day be a threat/competitor/predator to the Reapers? What if it's not about protecting Organics and it's only about protecting the Reapers themselves from the only thing (besides a united galaxy of billions of organics) that could threaten them, rival fellow Super-Synthetics?  :o


lol
That would be a better explanation for everything but it makes the choices more confusing in the end


it doesn't make things more confusing, it just means they're still hiding their true motives and lying to the species they harvest.


Im sorry i dont like the THERE LYING TO US idea.
Yes we have no reason to assume they are being honest but how are we supposed to do anything if we have 0 information we can trust.


They've demonstratedly lied in the past. They are evil (according to our morals) and have no compunction lying to what they consider lower life-forms. How you can't understand that an antagonist can lie is beyond me.


I know they can lie. What im saying is how are we supposed to act if we cannot trust the information the game gives us. If we had prior knowledge to go off of then i would trust that.

example:
If starchild is lying how do i know what to do at all. What is my best course of action. I have 3 ramps. I cannot trust the only person with information on what they do. You can't do anything. Your jsut guessing.
As a writer you cannot drop your audience into a situation with no context and force them to make a rational decision and then judge them based on said decision.

It'd be the same as me just going Here pick a button. If you pick the right one you get a prize if you pick the wrong one you get a kick in the nuts. And ALL OPTIONS KICK YOU IN THE NUTS.

BTW how has it become that i am attacking IT and at the same time defending that people exist who legitamately want to choose destroy?

#40441
SS2Dante

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LumbercracK wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

LumbercracK wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

LumbercracK wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

LumbercracK wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

What I mean is that gameplay attitudes and real world attitudes don't sync up in a lot of the renegade choices. Being cacually racist? that'd be renegade, and people only make those choices for "fun", not because it's what they believe (not saying this about all renegade choices, I was renegade with regards to genophage, but a lot of them are). The indcotrination process is for the player, not shepard, and I bet nearly 100% of players who TRUST the starchild could identify the "good" and "bad" choice. Now, anyone conciously choosing the "bad" choice, knowing they had two other alternatives that were clearly more "good" in every way, is either NOT taking the game seriously, or...well, they're not taking it seriously. Choosing destroy if you believe starkid is telling the truth is the same as choosing a needless genocide AND suicide at the same time. The developers count on the PLAYER to recognise this, and therefore go either blue or green. That is why the option never changes


- besides, if the option changed IT would be waaaaay too obvious.


Nice. Conspiracy theorists use that one all the time. First off it wouldnt be too obvoius because you wouldnt know until your second playthrough. Second off why is it assumed that a player has to feel the geth are even alive. Why is it considered genocide automatically. 

the truth is if it were IT the player would be placed with options that mattered to HIM. Regardless of wether or not he is genuinely playing. If IT were true ruthless shep would be a boring playthgrough and thus a pointless option as your given an auto win status because you dont care about the geth.


The internet. The internet. You wouldn't need two playthroughs. 

...seriously? Why is it you seem to think everyone HATES the geth? And EDI? Both are very deliberately made  to be likeable. I haven't met a single person, nor heard of a single person, who had any sort of animosity towards them. Plus, AI is defnitely "life" in this game, that's made abundently clear, so even if you don't like them it's still genocide. And you ignored the suicide part. Anyone playing your version of the game would have to be actively AIMING to kill all the geth in the universe.


Its not that their out to kill the geth. Its that the geth dying does not bother them. Nothing is defined in this game thats the point. You have to decide wether geth life is valuable or not.
And you cant make a game with the mindset of OHHH there gonna use the internet before they play. Then theirs no point.

And now onto the nail in the coffin.
So you say making IT cater to the specific sheppards current veiws to try to coerce him to choose control wouldnt work because the internet would ruin the suprise of it. Well if IT was their intention someone would have said "hey what happens when they google our game and hear what other people are saying about it."

And im sorry but if their are people who can legitimately kill mordin out their then there are people who can ignore the geth genocide.





No, not before. After. They want lots of speculation, that's been established. The fact that something pretty major changes in each of our endings is hardly subtle is it? We'd all pick up on that immediately.

No, I didn't. I didn't say that at all. I stated that in the ending you are given two choices, one of which results in the deaths of millions, the death of your pilots best friend, and your own, as well as implying that the cycle will continue and your decision only helps in the short term.

VERSUS the other two, which results in you achieving a higher state of conciousness and no deaths at all, a well as defnitely ending the cyle. Now, tell me, what sane human being, who took any of the story seriously, would pick red?

People killed Mordin because he put them against the wall. They didn't kill him for the lulz.


People killed mordin because they saw more value in the salarian fleet then the freedom of the krogan / personal integrity. Those people doomed the krogan to the genophage forever. Whats it to say someone cant do the sme to the geth, A debatably lliving entity.

A sane human being who uses the internet realizes the galaxy is screwed without relays. He sees that synthesis is a confusing and misguided answer that acctually solves nothing. He sees that control will not save the galaxy. He sees that the relays will always be gone and the only option that gets rid of the reapers for sure is destroy.




Yes. And? No point in having personal integrity if everyone is dead cos you didn't have a big enough fleet. There are zero benefits to killing the geth, who, as it has been pointed out, would already be dead by this point if you don't like them

...you imply doubt about the starchilds abilities while denying IT.

...guys, help?
..guys? Help?


The descision of wether integrity matters is a part of the game dude. You cant just throw YOUR value system into the argument to make your point. This game is about all kinds of mindsets being able to make their decisions. Your telling me destroy is a nonviable option because noone wants to kill the geth ever. Yet you elude to the fact that the geth may already be dead. Your playthrough allows you to decide the fate of the geth quarian and krogan races. Why would destruction of one of these races be a non choice.

I do not doubt star childs ability. I doubt his logic. I doubt synthesis solves anything. Hybrids can still make full synthetics. What do the geth and reapers become? How does being part robot make peace. We had war with organics already. Synthesis is a stupid option that makes no sense. 



No, I'm saying noone wants to kill the Geth for no reason at all, with no benefits and lots of downsides (which you keep completely ignoring by the way). All your other decisions are based on choices, choose between two bad options. Krogan or Salarian, Geth or Quarian. the final scene offers absolutely no incentive for killing the Geth, OTHER than genocide for genocides sake. It's very clearly set up to be win-win-lose. You're postulating some hypothetical physcopath who saves the galaxy then at the last minute decides to kill all the machines and himself for no benefit to anyone.

Lol, you doubt his logic, not ability, then start complaining about his ability. All of what he describes is space magic, you accept it or you don't. Also, your arguments rule out destroy as well.

Edit -  I'm simply repeating myself now, so I think we've reached the end of any reasonable argument.

Modifié par SS2Dante, 20 avril 2012 - 11:01 .


#40442
Arian Dynas

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To explain what I mean a bit more, since no one asked...

When I say the put you into a suitation where you can't help but agree with their veiwpoint, well let's look at our foremost indoctrinated person. Saren.

Saren was faced with three options, just like you were. Defy the Reapers, Join the Reapers, or Give Up.

Saren chose to join, because of what the Reapers told him. Defying them was pointless, since they claimed they would destroy him anyhow and that he would have gained nothing, and saved no one.

Giving up would have fetched him a similar result.

So he chose the "best" option according to him. Coexistence.

Sounds kinda familiar don't it? They make you discard destroy right away, so you don't even consider it. Similarly with control, they make Synthesis seem the best option, and so you come around to their way of thinking.

#40443
BatmanTurian

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LumbercracK wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
They've demonstratedly lied in the past. They are evil (according to our morals) and have no compunction lying to what they consider lower life-forms. How you can't understand that an antagonist can lie is beyond me.


I know they can lie. What im saying is how are we supposed to act if we cannot trust the information the game gives us. If we had prior knowledge to go off of then i would trust that.

example:
If starchild is lying how do i know what to do at all. What is my best course of action. I have 3 ramps. I cannot trust the only person with information on what they do. You can't do anything. Your jsut guessing.
As a writer you cannot drop your audience into a situation with no context and force them to make a rational decision and then judge them based on said decision.

It'd be the same as me just going Here pick a button. If you pick the right one you get a prize if you pick the wrong one you get a kick in the nuts. And ALL OPTIONS KICK YOU IN THE NUTS.

BTW how has it become that i am attacking IT and at the same time defending that people exist who legitamately want to choose destroy?


if IT is true, then destroy is the only correct option. If the ending is meant to be truly literal, then destroy is STILL the right option, because the other two options only continue the cycle. Destroy breaks the cycle (though it could start again in a million or so years if another race of Super-Synthetics arises to replace the Reapers) but at least then everyone has a chance to self-determinate. The true themes that have always run through this series are whether to be complete slaves, to compromise (and still technically be slaves), or fight for the freedom to make your own future. This makes Destroy the only logical choice whether IT is true or not unless you are a Marxist, I guess.

#40444
balance5050

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LumbercracK wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

LumbercracK wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

LumbercracK wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

*conspiracykeanu.jpg*

What if Reapers kill organics to reproduce but also so that the organics won't create synthetics that might one day be a threat/competitor/predator to the Reapers? What if it's not about protecting Organics and it's only about protecting the Reapers themselves from the only thing (besides a united galaxy of billions of organics) that could threaten them, rival fellow Super-Synthetics?  :o


lol
That would be a better explanation for everything but it makes the choices more confusing in the end


it doesn't make things more confusing, it just means they're still hiding their true motives and lying to the species they harvest.


Im sorry i dont like the THERE LYING TO US idea.
Yes we have no reason to assume they are being honest but how are we supposed to do anything if we have 0 information we can trust.


They've demonstratedly lied in the past. They are evil (according to our morals) and have no compunction lying to what they consider lower life-forms. How you can't understand that an antagonist can lie is beyond me.


I know they can lie. What im saying is how are we supposed to act if we cannot trust the information the game gives us. If we had prior knowledge to go off of then i would trust that.

example:
If starchild is lying how do i know what to do at all. What is my best course of action. I have 3 ramps. I cannot trust the only person with information on what they do. You can't do anything. Your jsut guessing.
As a writer you cannot drop your audience into a situation with no context and force them to make a rational decision and then judge them based on said decision.

It'd be the same as me just going Here pick a button. If you pick the right one you get a prize if you pick the wrong one you get a kick in the nuts. And ALL OPTIONS KICK YOU IN THE NUTS.

BTW how has it become that i am attacking IT and at the same time defending that people exist who legitamately want to choose destroy?


Those who legitimately want to destroy don't need defending because what they want fall in line with IT regardless. Destroy is the only one where you don't hav'e to take the kids word about what will happen AFTER you die. Destroy is the only one that would give you tangible results, and it's the only one where you stay true to the goals that have been esablished since ME1.

I think we need to keep in mind that it's obvious that they (reapers) need Shepard for something. My theory is that the Prothean Cipher is what makes Shep the true catalyst.

#40445
LumbercracK

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OK guys.
IF i am being lied to and i am NOT being indoctrinated then why do his statements ring true
IF i am being lied to and i am being indoctrinated then why is the only argument presented based on the fate of the geth.

It makes zero sense that i am being manipulated to make me choose control regardless over wether or not i care for the geth.

If the Reapers have indoctrinated sheppard for the purpose of making him choose control then why would destroy simply not result in the explosion of all relays killing all life. Arrival shows us that relays blowing up kills solar systems. Sheppard would easily believe that if the relay blows up everything dies, hes not stupid. Why are the reapers hoping that sheppard feels sorry for the geth rather then prey on what has been his motivation from day 1 stop the reapers from destroying earth.

IT is false.
Star Child is not lying.
Or bioware failed harder then i imagined

#40446
BatmanTurian

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balance5050 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Let me re-frame what I'm saying. The Reapers could be consciously turning organics into Reapers not just to reproduce, but also to make sure they are top dog and that other synthetics can never rise up to replace them. The synthetics from the last cycle are gone. They were used by the Reapers and then destroyed and also destroyed by the organics of the last cycle.

I think it might be about a larger instinct for the Reapers to survive by keeping competition from ever forming. Meanwhile, they give organics the line that they're saving organics from creating synthetics to kill organics blah blah. It's circular logic because it's a lie.


I agree with this. Also Casey has said numerous occasions that he wanted to keep mystery around the reapers. There's not much mystery if we truly know their purpose (to preserve), but if that's just BS then it's still a mystery... YAY!


These motives are the motives of visceral top predators, like extremely intelligent sharks. This makes Reapers far more scary, alien, cold, and unfathomable.

#40447
BatmanTurian

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LumbercracK wrote...

OK guys.
IF i am being lied to and i am NOT being indoctrinated then why do his statements ring true
IF i am being lied to and i am being indoctrinated then why is the only argument presented based on the fate of the geth.

It makes zero sense that i am being manipulated to make me choose control regardless over wether or not i care for the geth.

If the Reapers have indoctrinated sheppard for the purpose of making him choose control then why would destroy simply not result in the explosion of all relays killing all life. Arrival shows us that relays blowing up kills solar systems. Sheppard would easily believe that if the relay blows up everything dies, hes not stupid. Why are the reapers hoping that sheppard feels sorry for the geth rather then prey on what has been his motivation from day 1 stop the reapers from destroying earth.

IT is false.
Star Child is not lying.
Or bioware failed harder then i imagined


Or you simply don't comprehend IT. I'm not saying you're not intelligent, but maybe the logic of IT hasn't clicked yet.

#40448
BatmanTurian

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have to go, just wanted to throw this theory about the Reaper's motives into the mix and see what you guys think.

#40449
balance5050

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LumbercracK wrote...

OK guys.
IF i am being lied to and i am NOT being indoctrinated then why do his statements ring true
IF i am being lied to and i am being indoctrinated then why is the only argument presented based on the fate of the geth.

It makes zero sense that i am being manipulated to make me choose control regardless over wether or not i care for the geth.

If the Reapers have indoctrinated sheppard for the purpose of making him choose control then why would destroy simply not result in the explosion of all relays killing all life. Arrival shows us that relays blowing up kills solar systems. Sheppard would easily believe that if the relay blows up everything dies, hes not stupid. Why are the reapers hoping that sheppard feels sorry for the geth rather then prey on what has been his motivation from day 1 stop the reapers from destroying earth.

IT is false.
Star Child is not lying.
Or bioware failed harder then i imagined


Can you understand that the reapers don't want you to destroy them? Then you understand why the kid would lie to you.

#40450
Cucobr

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Found by yuedps
What do you think? Similar?



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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Modifié par Cucobr, 20 avril 2012 - 11:22 .