57139 réponses à ce sujet

[spotlessvoid]

Yeah this started pages ago as a response to those that were arguing against IDT, explaining how the literal ending is a logical fallacy (or Shepard got punked into submission.) It then devolved into a discussion on what, according to starchild, the reapers possible motivations are in relation to the Reapers actual actions are.

[Legion109]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Yeah this started pages ago as a response to those that were arguing against IDT, explaining how the literal ending is a logical fallacy (or Shepard got punked into submission.) It then devolved into a discussion on what, according to starchild, the reapers possible motivations are in relation to the Reapers actual actions are.

The reapers are pretty simple to understand they are just the biggest trolls in the galaxy.

Modifié par Legion109, 21 avril 2012 - 06:07 .

[spotlessvoid]

Legion109 wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Yeah this started pages ago as a response to those that were arguing against IDT, explaining how the literal ending is a logical fallacy (or Shepard got punked into submission.) It then devolved into a discussion on what, according to starchild, the reapers possible motivations are in relation to the Reapers actual actions are.

The reapers are pretty simple to understand they are judt the biggest trolls in the galaxy.

That's what I was saying

[Auralius Carolus]

So, I'm just gonna leave this little tidbit- randomly- and go.

Let's say, hypothetically, that multiplayer was added to the game for another reason, other than microtransaction revenue.

Let's also say that Bioware expected ME3 singleplayer to suffer on launch.

What possible role could MP play, practically? HMMMMMMM.

*tiptoes out the back door*

[DirtyPhoenix]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

So, I'm just gonna leave this little tidbit- randomly- and go.

Let's say, hypothetically, that multiplayer was added to the game for another reason, other than microtransaction revenue.

Let's also say that Bioware expected ME3 singleplayer to suffer on launch.

What possible role could MP play, practically? HMMMMMMM.

*tiptoes out the back door*

I was thinking something similar a while ago. Maybe I'm reading too much but first came operation beachhead (or something similar I'm not really into the MP so forgive me) then cacme operation Resurgencec. Seems like theres a pattern where we are slowly turning the tide against the reapers (and cerberus and some stupid geth ofcourse) and then the EC would ccome as the final blow against the reapers.

Thoughts?
*Follows Carolus through the back door*

Modifié par pirate1802, 21 avril 2012 - 06:27 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

double post

Modifié par pirate1802, 21 avril 2012 - 06:27 .

[Arian Dynas]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Some villains do it for personal gain or carnal pleasure and completely disregard any consequences their behavior has on others

Doesn't mean they see themselves as evil though. A good villian in that sort of suitation either sees other people as less important than himself, or "not real people" (see Batman villian Victor Sszaz for an excellent example of this) ore they justify it in their own minds with phrases like "everyone is out for themselves, I'm just being like everyone else."

Not the same as "I'm doing it for their own good."

Different people, different motivations.

Or is this just you playing Devil's advocate again? Because if so, you're doing it literally this time. We're talking John Milton levels of devillish advocacy.

That was meant to be interpreted as 2 devils advocating, as in I'm not debating what you (you specifically) are saying, more so it's two people trying to speculate on what Bioware means, when in actuality we both see the hidden meaning that is IDT

Not my intent. More of an Eastern existentialist personally. I just think the difference between those two types of villains is huge. I can partially identify with Tim because he is motivated partially by saving and protecting humanity. The Reapers, in my opinion are only out for self and couldn't care less about the suffering of other life forms

Oh not saying I have a problem with it, just, can we, idk, work out a signal or something when someone is playing Devil's advocate? Hand sign? Safe word?

[Arian Dynas]

Also, damn you both! Get your asses back in here.

[Auralius Carolus]

pirate1802 wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

So, I'm just gonna leave this little tidbit- randomly- and go.

Let's say, hypothetically, that multiplayer was added to the game for another reason, other than microtransaction revenue.

Let's also say that Bioware expected ME3 singleplayer to suffer on launch.

What possible role could MP play, practically? HMMMMMMM.

*tiptoes out the back door*

I was thinking something similar a while ago. Maybe I'm reading too much but first came operation beachhead (or something similar I'm not really into the MP so forgive me) then cacme operation Resurgencec. Seems like theres a pattern where we are slowly turning the tide against the reapers (and cerberus and some stupid geth ofcourse) and then the EC would ccome as the final blow against the reapers.

Thoughts?
*Follows Carolus through the back door*

*butts back in through the door, knocking pirate over*

And the next event is supposed to be "Operation Exorcist"! How's that for a name?

*leaps back out the door*

[spotlessvoid]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

So, I'm just gonna leave this little tidbit- randomly- and go.

Let's say, hypothetically, that multiplayer was added to the game for another reason, other than microtransaction revenue.

Let's also say that Bioware expected ME3 singleplayer to suffer on launch.

What possible role could MP play, practically? HMMMMMMM.

*tiptoes out the back door*

Interesting, but how far can they go with that? Didn't they promise that you wouldn't have to play MP to beat the game? That would be ABC 17 levels of lying

[balance5050]

 So.. in this vid that analyzes some dream soundfx, it kinda sounds like "Harbinger", right at 0:45.

WARNING! SUPER CREEPY!

 

[Rjames112]

 Last husks: kaidan/Ashley and James... Marauder Shields: Garrus....ergo you kill Garrus

[djspectre]

SS2Dante wrote...

djspectre wrote...

(if what I'm about to say has been mentioned, please ignore!)

 While I don't agree that the ending was based on Shepards indoctrination, I DO FIND THIS ONE FACT VERY INTERESTING!!!

After the only two missions that you directly face a reaper (Tunchanka and Rannoch), both times when you speak with James Vega in the Shuttle Bay, if you keep clicking him (to get through his various 'mission-related' statements), he'll alway end with:

JAMES: "Do you hear that hum? Is that just me?"

No matter where you walk on the ship, you'll never hear a 'hum' (unlike ME1 where you could drive through planets after freeing the rachni queen and hear the 'rachni song' in places). 

THIS ONLY HAPPENS AFTER A MISSION WHERE A REAPER WAS ENCOUNTERED! 

This is similar to when (in ME2) you boarded the Reaper ship to get the IFF and you saw the vid's of the scientists constantly hearing and seeing things. 

This COULD mean that being in proximity to a reaper (shepard talked to the one on Rannoch, which the conversation might have been a last ditch ploy by the Reapers to indoctrinate Shepard by trying to squeak out additional exposure!), has lasting effects even if only temporary. Afterall, Vega only makes the above statement after a reaper-encountered mission and not perpetually. 

If this limited exposure is true, then that would mean exposure to Object Rho would have been devastatingly quick. 

But if Object Rho was truly that quick, then the Reaper ship IFF mission in ME2 would have been contradictory since the scientists had been aboard for months before the effects were noted. 

While I don't dismiss the indoctrination theory, I also find evidence within the plot that disproves it. 

Add that to the PAX interview where the indoctrination question was directly asked and the developer simply said (paraphrase) "no comment". 

Most of us agree the "hum" is from the reaper IFF. And yes, precisely, it indoctrinates very slowly. hearing buzzing is in the codex as a symptom of indoctrination.

You're assuming all reaper devices indoctrinate at the same speed?

May I ask for this plot evidence? We can analyse and discuss

The plot evidence is that every person who has studied indoctrination has stated that it's a slow, gradual process and that those that are indoctrinated don't even realize they are which is the core of indoctrinations power. Indoctrination HAS to be a slow process, otherwise the person/group being indoctrinated would notice it and potentially rebel and resist it's effects. 

Object Rho eventually won over the scientists (and even knocked out Shepard eventually), the dead reaper also did it to the cerberus research team prior to recruiting Legion, Saren and Benezia were both indoctrinated and Benezia admitted to it being a slow process that she didn't notice at first. 

The fact that Shepard only has an opportunity to survive by picking the 'destroy' option makes sense. If the reapers are destroyed, nothing can control his thoughts or actions anymore and thus he 'wakes up'. Also, the other two endings, Shepard basically combines himself with the reapers in some form or another, which is precisely what the Reapers wanted in the first place: assimilation into a new physical/mental form. Even more so with the synthesis option. 

And having a Reaper IFF on board didn't help. I'm sure it's got a similar effect to Object Rho. But that also means that everyone else was likely indoctrinated also....but if that was the case, they would have all been turned to husks because that's what's happened to every other group that was indoctrinated. Even Saren was turned into a super husk. 

So basically, there is evidence that can swing the argument both ways. A.) it's a slow, barely noticeable process or B.) the inconsistency in how people act when indoctrinated across the game series (inconsistency is not the way of machines) shows Shepard might actually have been able to resist it through his/her indominatble will. 

[Arian Dynas]

I find the distinctive reaper squeal near the end FAR more interesting... It's the same sound you hear on Earth, following Anderson right after the first cutscene when the reaper lands.

[HellishFiend]

Arian Dynas wrote...

I find the distinctive reaper squeal near the end FAR more interesting... It's the same sound you hear on Earth, following Anderson right after the first cutscene when the reaper lands.

Theres a distinctive reaper sound there? I wasnt aware. Can you point them out in a video or something?

[Auralius Carolus]

djspectre wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

djspectre wrote...

(if what I'm about to say has been mentioned, please ignore!)

 While I don't agree that the ending was based on Shepards indoctrination, I DO FIND THIS ONE FACT VERY INTERESTING!!!

After the only two missions that you directly face a reaper (Tunchanka and Rannoch), both times when you speak with James Vega in the Shuttle Bay, if you keep clicking him (to get through his various 'mission-related' statements), he'll alway end with:

JAMES: "Do you hear that hum? Is that just me?"

No matter where you walk on the ship, you'll never hear a 'hum' (unlike ME1 where you could drive through planets after freeing the rachni queen and hear the 'rachni song' in places). 

THIS ONLY HAPPENS AFTER A MISSION WHERE A REAPER WAS ENCOUNTERED! 

This is similar to when (in ME2) you boarded the Reaper ship to get the IFF and you saw the vid's of the scientists constantly hearing and seeing things. 

This COULD mean that being in proximity to a reaper (shepard talked to the one on Rannoch, which the conversation might have been a last ditch ploy by the Reapers to indoctrinate Shepard by trying to squeak out additional exposure!), has lasting effects even if only temporary. Afterall, Vega only makes the above statement after a reaper-encountered mission and not perpetually. 

If this limited exposure is true, then that would mean exposure to Object Rho would have been devastatingly quick. 

But if Object Rho was truly that quick, then the Reaper ship IFF mission in ME2 would have been contradictory since the scientists had been aboard for months before the effects were noted. 

While I don't dismiss the indoctrination theory, I also find evidence within the plot that disproves it. 

Add that to the PAX interview where the indoctrination question was directly asked and the developer simply said (paraphrase) "no comment". 

Most of us agree the "hum" is from the reaper IFF. And yes, precisely, it indoctrinates very slowly. hearing buzzing is in the codex as a symptom of indoctrination.

You're assuming all reaper devices indoctrinate at the same speed?

May I ask for this plot evidence? We can analyse and discuss

The plot evidence is that every person who has studied indoctrination has stated that it's a slow, gradual process and that those that are indoctrinated don't even realize they are which is the core of indoctrinations power. Indoctrination HAS to be a slow process, otherwise the person/group being indoctrinated would notice it and potentially rebel and resist it's effects. 

Object Rho eventually won over the scientists (and even knocked out Shepard eventually), the dead reaper also did it to the cerberus research team prior to recruiting Legion, Saren and Benezia were both indoctrinated and Benezia admitted to it being a slow process that she didn't notice at first. 

The fact that Shepard only has an opportunity to survive by picking the 'destroy' option makes sense. If the reapers are destroyed, nothing can control his thoughts or actions anymore and thus he 'wakes up'. Also, the other two endings, Shepard basically combines himself with the reapers in some form or another, which is precisely what the Reapers wanted in the first place: assimilation into a new physical/mental form. Even more so with the synthesis option. 

And having a Reaper IFF on board didn't help. I'm sure it's got a similar effect to Object Rho. But that also means that everyone else was likely indoctrinated also....but if that was the case, they would have all been turned to husks because that's what's happened to every other group that was indoctrinated. Even Saren was turned into a super husk. 

So basically, there is evidence that can swing the argument both ways. A.) it's a slow, barely noticeable process or B.) the inconsistency in how people act when indoctrinated across the game series (inconsistency is not the way of machines) shows Shepard might actually have been able to resist it through his/her indominatble will. 

As the codex says, indoctrination can vary in speed and intensity. The rate is likely controlled remotely and processed through nanites implanted in the flesh. It's effect seems to be based on infrasound and electromagnetic frequency, for the most part. As for the "humming", that could be infrasound- at a low enough frequency the ears begin to detect pressure along with side-effects such as whistling or humming.

Both Infrasound and EMF can cause psychological and limited physical effects on humans. Intense dreams and hallucinations are reported in extreme exposure, with a sense of being watched or illogical fear otherwise.

Regarding ME2: Arrival, this is likely the single greatest event in ME foreshadowing, if IT is real. Here, it is established that indoctrination can affect dreams- the exact dreams are experienced briefly during the Object Rho event and distinctly if Shepard doesn't beat the countdown, as visions. Also Shepard is intentionally tricked into being overpowed by Rho, which has indoctrinated all others who have come in contact with it- just as the Shanxi Object indoctrinated all close-contactees, including TIM and apparently Saren.

The implants viewable in Shepards eyes, (distinctly different from the implants from Operation Lazarus), during the Control and Synth ending could have easily began with Rho.

[Auralius Carolus]

HellishFiend wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

I find the distinctive reaper squeal near the end FAR more interesting... It's the same sound you hear on Earth, following Anderson right after the first cutscene when the reaper lands.

Theres a distinctive reaper sound there? I wasnt aware. Can you point them out in a video or something?

www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Auralius Carolus, 21 avril 2012 - 07:58 .

[HellishFiend]

Thanks. Interesting...

[Arian Dynas]

A few things I noticed playing through again.

In the first dream, for a split second, the trees look like neurons.

When speaking to Vega in the Embassies, he also says "It's like this place wants you to forget" if you choose to investigate.

And yet more fodder for my own personal theory that we'll see either Collector based DLC, the fact that Vega is really the only fella without his own quest, and he has some serious hangups with the Collectors. A possible theory is that the DLC would be bundled with the anime dvd.

Especially considering, guess who's the star in the upcoming Mass Effect anime? That's right, Lt. James Vega.

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 21 avril 2012 - 09:08 .

[Earthborn_Shepard]

Hey, any news since yesterday morning?

Also, what's that stuff about hearing the Rachni song in ME1? Where does that happen?

Modifié par Earthborn_Shepard, 21 avril 2012 - 09:02 .

[Arian Dynas]

A few other things that came to mind, mostly out of the mouth of TIM; "This is the way Humanity must evolve." yet more references to the reapers being "the pinnacle of evolution."

Shepard's response to TIM in the finale; power you shouldn't be able to use, sounds alot like his brand spanking new plot convenient power to control, don't it?

Synthesis, some people have pointed it out a few times before, but it finally clicked for me, that Synthesis bears not only the description of becoming a Reaper, it also contains MORE evolution aspects, considered by the Guardian, the final evolution... just like the Reapers themselves.

Also, I noticed TIM uses a predator to commit suicide... just like Saren.

And since it got buried without much discussion, I'll point out about how at the end, the sound guys (usually very neurotic about this sort of thing) seemed to check out, Shepard's voice in the final scene before the Guardian is practically separate from the rest of the sound he makes, almost like a voiceover

And speaking of voices, looked at the codex again; the whispers fit "alien voices in the mind" pretty well, don't they?

[HellishFiend]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Hey, any news since yesterday morning?

Also, what's that stuff about hearing the Rachni song in ME1? Where does that happen?

That was news to me too, so I looked it up. Apparently if you free the Rachni queen in ME1, there are some very specific spots on certain worlds (one of which is Luna, the moon) where you can hear short clips of what is supposedly the "Rachni song". The clips are available on youtube. Seems like just an easter egg to me, though the coolness factor and attention to detail is definitely appreciated. 

[HellishFiend]

Arian Dynas wrote...


And since it got buried without much discussion, I'll point out about how at the end, the sound guys (usually very neurotic about this sort of thing) seemed to check out, Shepard's voice in the final scene before the Guardian is practically separate from the rest of the sound he makes, almost like a voiceover

And speaking of voices, looked at the codex again; the whispers fit "alien voices in the mind" pretty well, don't they?

All of the sound in the final section is odd in one way or another. In addition to what you mentioned, I still think that the strange "echo" you hear when you fire your Paladin sounds a lot like "Shep...ard....". Strange that it is also played only through the rear speakers as well, even if you spin around rapidly while you shoot. 

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Arian Dynas wrote...

A few things I noticed playing through again.

In the first dream, for a split second, the trees look like neurons.

When speaking to Vega in the Embassies, he also says "It's like this place wants you to forget" if you choose to investigate.

And yet more fodder for my own personal theory that we'll see either Collector based DLC, the fact that Vega is really the only fella without his own quest, and he has some serious hangups with the Collectors. A possible theory is that the DLC would be bundled with the anime dvd.

Especially considering, guess who's the star in the upcoming Mass Effect anime? That's right, Lt. James Vega.

I remember someone a few hundred pages ago brought up the dream trees looking like neurons when you first see them at that angle. I think a few Theorists "dismissed" that claim but  I believe him/you, they look almost too similar for mere coincidence and I really don't like using the word "coincidence" to describe more than one thing in such a story. I'm a stong believer in nothing going to waste in a good story, everything having a meaning or some significance, or at least everything in an important part of the story such as these Nightmares.

I brought up the Citadel potentially being a hub for Indoctrination a few pages ago (1500 something or so) and someone (maybe you arian?) mentioned it was already discussed earlier in the thread. Your squadmate convos add credit to it,
"In here you can almost forget about the war."
"It's like they want you to forget."
"It's all wrong, like they're hiding something."
"Everyone's walking around in a daze."
I'd go on if my memory was any better, you'd think with 3 and a half playthroughs I'd have it half memorized by now.

[Tr0n01d]

HellishFiend wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Hey, any news since yesterday morning?

Also, what's that stuff about hearing the Rachni song in ME1? Where does that happen?

That was news to me too, so I looked it up. Apparently if you free the Rachni queen in ME1, there are some very specific spots on certain worlds (one of which is Luna, the moon) where you can hear short clips of what is supposedly the "Rachni song". The clips are available on youtube. Seems like just an easter egg to me, though the coolness factor and attention to detail is definitely appreciated. 

I saw a video of that on you tube, and some how I kinda expected "fear of the heavens" to start playing.


yeah i'm crazy <_<