57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Gorkan86]

byne wrote...

estebanus wrote...

I also thought that it's possible that some people from a more advanced species had hidden there to protect themselves from the reapers, but that would contradict the reapers' apparent motivation, which is to leave the younger species alone, since they would be killing of absolutely everyone just to get a few hundred!

If you want actual irrefutable proof that the Reapers are lying about harvesting only the advanced species, you just have to look at the actual enemies called Harvesters.

They dont have spaceships, they dont even have any form of technology, they're just mindless animals, but the Reapers harvested them anyways.

This proves that the Harvesters are not a civilization, they are just animals, who knows how many millions of years of evolution need for them to take the path of civilized society.

[waldstr18]

i almost failed physics. so sorry for that.

i dont think it hurts my point though. but im not a physist so i think i better step away from that one.

but i my defense, i wrote "gravity is a fact, i think" as in im not sure.

Modifié par waldstr18, 22 avril 2012 - 07:39 .

[balance5050]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

Also, after 5 weeks I finally realized that the 'Destroy' tube looks like a husk-ify tube we see on Sanctuary and Shep destroying it so enthusiastically means that this tube represents (sort of) Shep's defeat against the Reaper ('s methods). Smart me...

...I think people need to see this.. dunno if it's been mentioned, but I didn't know it before...

That does make some sense.

[SS2Dante]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

Stegoceras wrote...

Not really being an It supporter, but just having some fun in my head with the Theory, I was wondering, what if you guys got it upside down? What if instead of Control/Synthesis the actual indoctrination happens when you pick destroy, I mean:

Shepard is much more useful when he is alive and indoctrinated, the guy could then destabilize the entire war effort. We only see him alive in destroy, cause the other options might have killed him straight out or accelerated the Indoctrination so far he turned into a mindless husk.

But what about down-selling the destroy ending? Well, maybe they were actually testing his resolve to the matter. As far as I know Indoctrination happens by suggestions and whispers, what if they really were suggesting destroy from early on and it was all a ploy to get Shepard into the right place and position to do massive damage. In the end they test whether he is really still taking Reaper suggestions or that he is still able to make his own rational decisions. I mean don't deny that probably everyone's first idea when entering the final room was "destroy the suckers" cause that is what we have been told to do all along.

Again, i'm pretty sure this idea isn't so solid, but it was a fun little thought (for me at least) I came up with.

edit: Oh yes, I'm fully aware that the implications would be die or indoctrination, which is a pretty damn gloomy end

The War Assets are also a problem for the IT. I mean, if Shep has low WA, why do they only give him the "best option" ? Okay he's going to die, but the Reapers are destroyed...

I've heard that if you save the collector base and have low WA's then the only option is control. But I agree that the assets don't tie well together with IT. Why introduce two choices that lead to the same path and why give Shepard a way out?

Also, Shepard should wake up after the destroy option is picked regardless of whether he has low EMS or not. He beat indoctrination and should wake up.

Actually, provided you accept this one assumption -

(Assumption - the more of a threat Shepard is, the more the Reapers want to indoctrinate him.)

- I think the low EMS thing ties in nicely. With low EMS they aren't pushing to indoctrinate you, so it simply defaults to whether you're "weak" (kept the collector base and only see the control option) or "strong" (destroyed it and so see destroy).

[Uncle Jo]

MaximizedAction wrote...


Plotholes can be explained in retrospect. In contrary to all the b*tching about plotholes I think this kind of stuff can be explained very well by, say the EC. No problem, it just has to be withing the lore.

@Gambit
Well Bioware would have to somehow multiplex the different decisions, and it would be very interesting to see how.

Btw, with regards to who leaves the Normandy at the end:
So it's NOT neccessarily your last sqadmates. It's your LI and the character you interacted with the most?

If so, this fits even better to the claim that the crash was in Shep's head and these two persons are his best friends.
(I know, 1600+ pages are about that, but there are still folks nagging about this supposed lazyness of the devs)

Also, after 5 weeks I finally realized that the 'Destroy' tube looks like a husk-ify tube we see on Sanctuary and Shep destroying it so enthusiastically means that this tube represents (sort of) Shep's defeat against the Reaper ('s methods). Smart me...

If you don't mind I would be glad to hear those easy explanations about the plotholes and the defeat of Shep against the Reapers (I may be a little dumb)

[Sammuthegreat]

waldstr18 wrote...

i almost failed physics. so sorry for that.

i dont think it hurts my point though. but im not a physist so i think i better step away from that one.

but i my defense, i wrote "gravity is a fact, i think" as in im not sure.

Fair enough.

[SS2Dante]

Leto_Galt wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

Leto_Galt wrote...

True that would have been better, but before this PR nightmare happened, EA fully intended to make you $$$ for it.

Believeing IT doesn't mean you have to believe EA/Bioware didn't **** this up.

I'm pretty sure that Javik was ripped off from the game. Such an important character cannot be sold as DLC.
But trying to sell the end of a game as a DLC... It means we got ME 2.99... It's hard to believe...

Yea Javik can be enabled as a squad mate without the DLC so he is definatly in the core game.

It's hard to accept... Sure, It's hard to Justify... Agree.

Hard to believe... Nah... I don't think its hard to believe.

Bioware have stated that they began work on (or at least hadn't finished most of, can't remember exactly) the Javik stuff after the game went gold. Now, on the assumption that this isn't a downright lie (doubtful. PR allows spin but this is stretching it) that means that Bioware weren't being paid for the work on the Javik DLC (wouldn't fall under ME3 contract), hence it being paid dlc.

...possibility. I can't know what really happened so benefit of the doubt applies for me

[byne]

Rifneno wrote...

byne wrote...

Speaking of physics, that drill sergeant in ME2 told us that we're ruining someone's day somewhere everytime we fire the cannon of a starship.

Dont we kinda screw Earth over more than even the Reapers did when like half our shots in the opening salvo just completely miss the Reapers?

LOL.  I was wondering if anyone else thought that.  I was going to say something but I figured I'd get "they're guided shots omg noob". 

If they were guided shots, the drill sergeant's entire speech in ME2 would have been pointless.

[balance5050]

Sammuthegreat wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

i almost failed physics. so sorry for that.

i dont think it hurts my point though. but im not a physist so i think i better step away from that one.

but i my defense, i wrote "gravity is a fact, i think" as in im not sure.

Fair enough.

Credit where credit's due.

[Uncle Jo]

SS2Dante wrote...


Actually, provided you accept this one assumption -

(Assumption - the more of a threat Shepard is, the more the Reapers want to indoctrinate him.)

- I think the low EMS thing ties in nicely. With low EMS they aren't pushing to indoctrinate you, so it simply defaults to whether you're "weak" (kept the collector base and only see the control option) or "strong" (destroyed it and so see destroy).

I accept your assumption. But no, I don't agree with you. With low EMS, you're nothing, you already lose. I (the Reapers) won't even bother to try to endoctrinate you (and certainly not give you the choice who could destroy me or breaks the indoctrination).

Edit: IMO if the IT was true, the destroy choice would have appeared as last choice, when your EMS are the highest

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 22 avril 2012 - 07:50 .

[MaximizedAction]

Uncle Jo wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...


Plotholes can be explained in retrospect. In contrary to all the b*tching about plotholes I think this kind of stuff can be explained very well by, say the EC. No problem, it just has to be withing the lore.

@Gambit
Well Bioware would have to somehow multiplex the different decisions, and it would be very interesting to see how.

Btw, with regards to who leaves the Normandy at the end:
So it's NOT neccessarily your last sqadmates. It's your LI and the character you interacted with the most?

If so, this fits even better to the claim that the crash was in Shep's head and these two persons are his best friends.
(I know, 1600+ pages are about that, but there are still folks nagging about this supposed lazyness of the devs)

Also, after 5 weeks I finally realized that the 'Destroy' tube looks like a husk-ify tube we see on Sanctuary and Shep destroying it so enthusiastically means that this tube represents (sort of) Shep's defeat against the Reaper ('s methods). Smart me...

If you don't mind I would be glad to hear those easy explanations about the plotholes and the defeat of Shep against the Reapers (I may be a little dumb)

Sorry, didn't mean to sound condescending.

I didn't mean all plotholes, but most. Plot holes are, per definition, holes in the otherwise logical building of the story. But as long as we don't know Bioware's plans for DLC's, we can't really say which of these 'plotholes' are really global(real) plotholes or just yet-to-be-explained inconsistencies. You see, two random(?) crewmembers leaving Normandy, whereas they have been with you just a few minutes/hours ago at first seems like a plothole.
But in our 1600++ pages we found theories for explaining this within the story's logic and lore.

But we can only go so far. Bioware has to do the real work, since it's their story, responsibility and job. If they don't, then we're free to call it a plothole, but only after all endevour's of an explaination failed.
This is my opinion on plotholes in ME3.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 22 avril 2012 - 07:50 .

[balance5050]

Uncle Jo wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...


Actually, provided you accept this one assumption -

(Assumption - the more of a threat Shepard is, the more the Reapers want to indoctrinate him.)

- I think the low EMS thing ties in nicely. With low EMS they aren't pushing to indoctrinate you, so it simply defaults to whether you're "weak" (kept the collector base and only see the control option) or "strong" (destroyed it and so see destroy).

I accept your assumption. But no, I don't agree with you. With low EMS, you're nothing, you already lose. I (the Reapers) won't even bother to give you a choice (and certainly not the choice who could destroy me or breaks the indoctrination).

The fact is your choices DO expand with higher EMS no matter how you look at it. The choice to "wake up" amongst rubble requires the highest amount of EMS.

[byne]

One thing that has always bugged me: Godchild pretty clearly wants you to use the Crucible. I mean, he goes so far as to bring you to him so you'll be able to use it.

He also claims he controls the Reapers.

Why would the Reapers destroy the Crucible if you take too long to decide?

Is he just full of crap?

Or is his logic biting him in the ass? Are the created (Reapers) finally rebelling against the creators (Godchild)?

[Uncle Jo]

balance5050 wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...


Actually, provided you accept this one assumption -

(Assumption - the more of a threat Shepard is, the more the Reapers want to indoctrinate him.)

- I think the low EMS thing ties in nicely. With low EMS they aren't pushing to indoctrinate you, so it simply defaults to whether you're "weak" (kept the collector base and only see the control option) or "strong" (destroyed it and so see destroy).

I accept your assumption. But no, I don't agree with you. With low EMS, you're nothing, you already lose. I (the Reapers) won't even bother to give you a choice (and certainly not the choice who could destroy me or breaks the indoctrination).

The fact is your choices DO expand with higher EMS no matter how you look at it. The choice to "wake up" amongst rubble requires the highest amount of EMS.

Yeah I know. But why the two additional choices are only advantageous to the Reapers not TO YOU. It should have been the contrary, or not ?

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Uncle Jo wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...


Actually, provided you accept this one assumption -

(Assumption - the more of a threat Shepard is, the more the Reapers want to indoctrinate him.)

- I think the low EMS thing ties in nicely. With low EMS they aren't pushing to indoctrinate you, so it simply defaults to whether you're "weak" (kept the collector base and only see the control option) or "strong" (destroyed it and so see destroy).

I accept your assumption. But no, I don't agree with you. With low EMS, you're nothing, you already lose. I (the Reapers) won't even bother to try to endoctrinate you (and certainly not give you the choice who could destroy me or breaks the indoctrination).

I think he is on to something in how much the Reapers consider the forces and by extension Shepard a threat.

If you hvae low EMS what you see might not be a focused  Indoctrination attempt, but rather the effects of all the preeceding indoctrination, you know like even mindless reaper artifacts can indoctrinate people near them. After beeing knocked down Shepard feels the effect of such exposure, but the Reapers dont bother with any additional subleties and simply lets Shepard mind wander through it succumbing or recovering on his own (not actually refering control/destroy here simply that Shepards mind is making the scenario based upon what he previusly choose in ME2).

To put it simply they dont bother with anything more because the battle is practically allready over and they have won, no question.

Now the higher the EMS the more important and interesting a figure Shepard becomes and thus the Reapers (Harbinger) makes a focused attack upon his mind setting up the elaborate scenario we might see.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 22 avril 2012 - 07:56 .

[balance5050]

byne wrote...

One thing that has always bugged me: Godchild pretty clearly wants you to use the Crucible. I mean, he goes so far as to bring you to him so you'll be able to use it.

He also claims he controls the Reapers.

Why would the Reapers destroy the Crucible if you take too long to decide?

Is he just full of crap?

Or is his logic biting him in the ass? Are the created (Reapers) finally rebelling against the creators (Godchild)?

It is interesting that they make a point to tell you "the crucible has been destroyed" when the kid just told you that he "controls" them.

Modifié par balance5050, 22 avril 2012 - 07:56 .

[MaximizedAction]

byne wrote...

One thing that has always bugged me: Godchild pretty clearly wants you to use the Crucible. I mean, he goes so far as to bring you to him so you'll be able to use it.

He also claims he controls the Reapers.

Why would the Reapers destroy the Crucible if you take too long to decide?

Is he just full of crap?

Or is his logic biting him in the ass? Are the created (Reapers) finally rebelling against the creators (Godchild)?

This is one of those questions of mere gameplay mechanics (to hurry you the player) vs. part of the story (Catalyst lieing).

But I admit that if this is just a means of "hurry up" it sure contradicts the Catalyst...

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 22 avril 2012 - 07:58 .

[Earthborn_Shepard]

balance5050 wrote...

byne wrote...

One thing that has always bugged me: Godchild pretty clearly wants you to use the Crucible. I mean, he goes so far as to bring you to him so you'll be able to use it.

He also claims he controls the Reapers.

Why would the Reapers destroy the Crucible if you take too long to decide?

Is he just full of crap?

Or is his logic biting him in the ass? Are the created (Reapers) finally rebelling against the creators (Godchild)?

It is interesting that they make a point to tell you "the crucible has been destroyed" when the kid just told you that he "controls" them.

Dude.. maybe the Reapers were INDEED rebelling against the godchild. Maybe the Catalyst really created them (for whatever purpose). And maybe he gave them a mission - one they always fulfilled, until now. Maybe they were trying to destroy him, hence trying to get into the Citadel. So he WANTED Shep to get that far so he could solve the Reaper thread - because it was a threat to himself, and he had lost control over them.

Yeah, far-fetched, but I think it's  a nice theory.

[Gorkan86]

byne wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

byne wrote...

Speaking of physics, that drill sergeant in ME2 told us that we're ruining someone's day somewhere everytime we fire the cannon of a starship.

Dont we kinda screw Earth over more than even the Reapers did when like half our shots in the opening salvo just completely miss the Reapers?

LOL.  I was wondering if anyone else thought that.  I was going to say something but I figured I'd get "they're guided shots omg noob". 

If they were guided shots, the drill sergeant's entire speech in ME2 would have been pointless.

I do not remember word for word the sergeants speech, but he said that you can't just shoot the hell these guns, but must wait for aiming computer green light, so not to ruin someone's day if you miss. (if no sighting shot)

Modifié par Gorkan86, 22 avril 2012 - 08:02 .

[estebanus]

byne wrote...

One thing that has always bugged me: Godchild pretty clearly wants you to use the Crucible. I mean, he goes so far as to bring you to him so you'll be able to use it.

He also claims he controls the Reapers.

Why would the Reapers destroy the Crucible if you take too long to decide?

Is he just full of crap?

Or is his logic biting him in the ass? Are the created (Reapers) finally rebelling against the creators (Godchild)?

That's EXACTLY the same thing I thought when I came up there in my first playthrough. I mean, The starchild literally WANTS you to use the crucible, even going as as bringing you there, and also magically healing you (see Shepard passing out from blood loss mere minutes before). But why do the reapers destroy the crucible anyway? It just doesn't make sense!

Unless :wizard::wizard: of course!

[monrapias]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Jacob, you're up to bat!  

If I ever replay ME2 he'll be the one who crisps in the conduit. It doesn't matter how, but he'll die during the suicide mission. I swear it.

Next time I play I know who goes in the vents!

Continuing Relationships in Mass Effect 3:
Shepard: Can we still be together?
Garrus: Hell yes!
Tali: I won't need my suit anymore here soon!
Liara: Yes.
Ashley/Kaidan: As long as you're not with Cerberus anymore.
Miranda: Yes, after this is done with.
Jack: Okay, but it’s going to be long distance.
Thane: I won’t last much longer, but yes.
Jacob: Well… I kind of impregnated some other girl in the few months you were away. So, no... I’m only human!!

[balance5050]

Uncle Jo wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...


Actually, provided you accept this one assumption -

(Assumption - the more of a threat Shepard is, the more the Reapers want to indoctrinate him.)

- I think the low EMS thing ties in nicely. With low EMS they aren't pushing to indoctrinate you, so it simply defaults to whether you're "weak" (kept the collector base and only see the control option) or "strong" (destroyed it and so see destroy).

I accept your assumption. But no, I don't agree with you. With low EMS, you're nothing, you already lose. I (the Reapers) won't even bother to give you a choice (and certainly not the choice who could destroy me or breaks the indoctrination).

The fact is your choices DO expand with higher EMS no matter how you look at it. The choice to "wake up" amongst rubble requires the highest amount of EMS.

Yeah I know. But why the two additional choices are only advantageous to the Reapers not TO YOU. It should have been the contrary, or not ?

Dude, the kid is telling you to GRAB LIGHTNING or JUMP INTO A LASER, and you just supposed to beleive it will all turn out ok after YOUR DEAD?

"the two additional choices are only advantageous to the Reapers not TO YOU"

Even at face value destroy is the best ending because

A. Control doesn't stop organics from creating synthetics.

B. Half synthetic beings could still create full synthetic beings.

Not to mentioon all the other logical fallacies that go along with these endings.

[Uncle Jo]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...


I think he is on to something in how much the Reapers consider the forces and by extension Shepard a threat.

If you hvae low EMS what you see might not be a focused  Indoctrination attempt, but rather the effects of all the preeceding indoctrination, you know like even mindless reaper artifacts can indoctrinate people near them. After beeing knocked down Shepard feels the effect of such exposure, but the Reapers dont bother with any additional subleties and simply lets Shepard mind wander through it succumbing or recovering on his own (not actually refering control/destroy here simply that Shepards mind is making the scenario based upon what he previusly choose in ME2).

To put it simply they dont bother with anything more because the battle is practically allready over and they have won, no question.

Now the higher the EMS the more important and interesting a figure Shepard becomes and thus the Reapers (Harbinger) makes a focused attack upon his mind setting up the elaborate scenario we might see.

I do see your point. For me, the best theories are simple, once explained. It all makes sense then, without blowing your mind. There is no doubt anymore. Yet I don't have this feeling with the IT.

[Gorkan86]

estebanus wrote...

byne wrote...

One thing that has always bugged me: Godchild pretty clearly wants you to use the Crucible. I mean, he goes so far as to bring you to him so you'll be able to use it.

He also claims he controls the Reapers.

Why would the Reapers destroy the Crucible if you take too long to decide?

Is he just full of crap?

Or is his logic biting him in the ass? Are the created (Reapers) finally rebelling against the creators (Godchild)?

That's EXACTLY the same thing I thought when I came up there in my first playthrough. I mean, The starchild literally WANTS you to use the crucible, even going as as bringing you there, and also magically healing you (see Shepard passing out from blood loss mere minutes before). But why do the reapers destroy the crucible anyway? It just doesn't make sense!

Unless :wizard::wizard: of course!

If Crucible does not use it then what's the point? The starchild wants you to use the crucible, because it changed him, and gave new opportunities, why not use them?

About the miraculous healing and endless rounds of ammunition and other details, let's not forget that Mass Effect is not simply game, it's like an interactive movie. And these things are not rare in the movies, they just do not matter. Really.

Modifié par Gorkan86, 22 avril 2012 - 08:16 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Uncle Jo wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...


I think he is on to something in how much the Reapers consider the forces and by extension Shepard a threat.

If you hvae low EMS what you see might not be a focused  Indoctrination attempt, but rather the effects of all the preeceding indoctrination, you know like even mindless reaper artifacts can indoctrinate people near them. After beeing knocked down Shepard feels the effect of such exposure, but the Reapers dont bother with any additional subleties and simply lets Shepard mind wander through it succumbing or recovering on his own (not actually refering control/destroy here simply that Shepards mind is making the scenario based upon what he previusly choose in ME2).

To put it simply they dont bother with anything more because the battle is practically allready over and they have won, no question.

Now the higher the EMS the more important and interesting a figure Shepard becomes and thus the Reapers (Harbinger) makes a focused attack upon his mind setting up the elaborate scenario we might see.

I do see your point. For me, the best theories are simple, once explained. It all makes sense then, without blowing your mind. There is no doubt anymore. Yet I don't have this feeling with the IT.

I can only agree there, but i am having an even harder time wrapping my head around issues like how Shepard was supposed to have survived in the Destroy ending, why Joker and Crew were running and how Synthesis is even possible...or just the fact that Shepard simply accepts the Star Brats words at face value despite having witnessed events contradicting the very thing Starbrat is claiming...

To me Indoctrination Theory makes sense and even more importantly it allows me to explain those massive holes even if it is not the simpliest of theories.