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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#41626
Uncle Jo

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Rifneno wrote...


IMO the reason for the choice/EMS structure is because this isn't just the Reapers trying to indoctrinate Shepard, it's also the writers trying to fool (indoctrinate) the player. It'd be a mighty big red flag if the option that seemed the worst at face value was the one held back the longest. Admittedly this is kind of shaky logic, but also consider that you need 4000/5000+ EMS for Shepard to survive even with the destroy choice. So while Shepard gets the destroy choice very early, he's not living to do anything about it. Like killing Reapers. Perhaps it's not so much "Shepard sucks, why bother indoctrinating" as it is "Shepard's dead anyway, that banshee is loving him long time, why bother indoctrinating".


A little bit far stretched for a "simple" videogame, but it could make sense... But without any confirmation from Bioware, it still stay to the state of  theory...
Btw about the Shepard breathing scene (I agree that he can not possibly be on the Citadel), Some point out that even in the face-value ending, it's the only way for him to "survive" (assuming he magically withstood the double explosion), because the 2 other options pretty much disintegrate him, and that's not necessarily only serving the cause of the IT...

#41627
paxxton

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Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Yeah, that has been brought up a few times now.. sad thing is.. I don't want it to be true, because apparently I'm one of the few people who really loved EDI as a squadmate. To me it would suck if she was just a walking indoctrination device


She might actually turn out to be the real Reaper Doomsday Device.

#41628
EpyonX3

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lex0r11 wrote...

Have to find something to eat, i'll let Shepard take over from here.

Posted Image


I thought the husks just wanted to give Shepard a shoulder Massage....

Of Death!

#41629
Earthborn_Shepard

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paxxton wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Yeah, that has been brought up a few times now.. sad thing is.. I don't want it to be true, because apparently I'm one of the few people who really loved EDI as a squadmate. To me it would suck if she was just a walking indoctrination device


She might actually turn out to be the real Reaper Doomsday Device.


I see you know your videos

"I care about you, Ash- Miranda - DAMMIT"

#41630
Gorkan86

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paxxton wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Yeah, that has been brought up a few times now.. sad thing is.. I don't want it to be true, because apparently I'm one of the few people who really loved EDI as a squadmate. To me it would suck if she was just a walking indoctrination device


She might actually turn out to be the real Reaper Doomsday Device.

She could, but did not do it, Shepard himself has said that she had a thousand opportunities to destroy the crew.

#41631
EpyonX3

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Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Yeah, that has been brought up a few times now.. sad thing is.. I don't want it to be true, because apparently I'm one of the few people who really loved EDI as a squadmate. To me it would suck if she was just a walking indoctrination device


She might actually turn out to be the real Reaper Doomsday Device.


I see you know your videos

"I care about you, Ash- Miranda - DAMMIT"


"I just wanted to Bang you. I'll come back when you're feeling better."

"We'll Bang, OK?"

Modifié par EpyonX3, 22 avril 2012 - 08:51 .


#41632
HellishFiend

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Uncle Jo wrote...
The War Assets are also a problem for the IT. I mean, if Shep has low WA, why do they only give him the "best option" ? Okay he's going to die, but the Reapers are destroyed...





This has been touched on before, but it is an important point so I would like to mention it again, and in my words....

This actually makes far more sense to me in the context of the IT than in the face-value interpretation. Lets assume for the moment that the ending is an indoctrination sequence, like the IT suggests. If your war assets are low, Shepard has made a miserable attempt at bringing the galaxy's forces to bear against the reapers, and they probably arent as hyped about fully indoctrinating him as they might have otherwise been. Thus, they stop trying to fully indoctrinate him at the end. That being said, he is only presented with the option that matches the conclusion he would have come to on his own. If you destroyed the collector base, that option would be Destroy. If you saved the collector base, that option would be Control. It stands to reason that if Shepard/The Player saved the collector base, they would be more naturally inclined to choose the Control ending over the other two, so as part of abandoning their effort to indoctrinate you, youre only given the choice you would have most likely picked anyway. 

#41633
byne

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Page 1666:devil:

#41634
Earthborn_Shepard

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EpyonX3 wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Yeah, that has been brought up a few times now.. sad thing is.. I don't want it to be true, because apparently I'm one of the few people who really loved EDI as a squadmate. To me it would suck if she was just a walking indoctrination device


She might actually turn out to be the real Reaper Doomsday Device.


I see you know your videos

"I care about you, Ash- Miranda - DAMMIT"


"I just wanted to Bang you. I'll come back when you're feeling better."

"We'll Bang, OK?"


I don't know if you watched the Skyrim ones, but they're even better.

"I remember, when I was a little girl in France, we used to pick pretty Daisies. The boys from the village whispered my name. Baalgruf, oh Baalgruf!"

#41635
LelianaHawke

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My key problem with the indoctrination theory is that it adds a massive plot hole at best, and results in an auto win for the reapers at worst.

All through the trilogy the reapers are shown to be almost invincible against conventional attacks. It takes an entire fleet with precise targeting just to take down one on the Quarian homeworld.

If Shepard doesn't managed to activate the Crucible (i.e. it is all a hallucination), then the reapers destroy all the fleets.

The Crucible must fire in order to defeat the reapers, and I don't see how Shepard activating it from afar (indoctrination theory if everything goes fine), or activating it via a conversation with the lead AI is actually any different.

Modifié par LelianaHawke, 22 avril 2012 - 08:54 .


#41636
estebanus

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byne wrote...

Page 1666:devil:





#41637
paxxton

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Gorkan86 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Yeah, that has been brought up a few times now.. sad thing is.. I don't want it to be true, because apparently I'm one of the few people who really loved EDI as a squadmate. To me it would suck if she was just a walking indoctrination device


She might actually turn out to be the real Reaper Doomsday Device.

She could, but did not do it, Shepard himself has said that she had a thousand opportunities to destroy the crew.


Master of Deception.
There is this Chinese saying about friends and enemies.

Modifié par paxxton, 22 avril 2012 - 08:56 .


#41638
EpyonX3

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Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Yeah, that has been brought up a few times now.. sad thing is.. I don't want it to be true, because apparently I'm one of the few people who really loved EDI as a squadmate. To me it would suck if she was just a walking indoctrination device


She might actually turn out to be the real Reaper Doomsday Device.


I see you know your videos

"I care about you, Ash- Miranda - DAMMIT"


"I just wanted to Bang you. I'll come back when you're feeling better."

"We'll Bang, OK?"


I don't know if you watched the Skyrim ones, but they're even better.

"I remember, when I was a little girl in France, we used to pick pretty Daisies. The boys from the village whispered my name. Baalgruf, oh Baalgruf!"


"Papa, Mother is making me do kitchen work again."

"Sigh, Son, your mother will pay for this! Get my Bat!"

"Papa don't hurt her!"

#41639
Quahtli

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HellishFiend wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...
The War Assets are also a problem for the IT. I mean, if Shep has low WA, why do they only give him the "best option" ? Okay he's going to die, but the Reapers are destroyed...





This has been touched on before, but it is an important point so I would like to mention it again, and in my words....

This actually makes far more sense to me in the context of the IT than in the face-value interpretation. Lets assume for the moment that the ending is an indoctrination sequence, like the IT suggests. If your war assets are low, Shepard has made a miserable attempt at bringing the galaxy's forces to bear against the reapers, and they probably arent as hyped about fully indoctrinating him as they might have otherwise been. Thus, they stop trying to fully indoctrinate him at the end. That being said, he is only presented with the option that matches the conclusion he would have come to on his own. If you destroyed the collector base, that option would be Destroy. If you saved the collector base, that option would be Control. It stands to reason that if Shepard/The Player saved the collector base, they would be more naturally inclined to choose the Control ending over the other two, so as part of abandoning their effort to indoctrinate you, youre only given the choice you would have most likely picked anyway. 


Perhaps much more obvious is the fact that if one has very few war assets, and they can only choose destroy, it will result in a complete annihilation of Earth (the so called "vaporize" ending). Basically, there were way to few war assets / armies to help shepard stay alive long enough to survive the indoctrination.

#41640
Earthborn_Shepard

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EpyonX3 wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Yeah, that has been brought up a few times now.. sad thing is.. I don't want it to be true, because apparently I'm one of the few people who really loved EDI as a squadmate. To me it would suck if she was just a walking indoctrination device


She might actually turn out to be the real Reaper Doomsday Device.


I see you know your videos

"I care about you, Ash- Miranda - DAMMIT"


"I just wanted to Bang you. I'll come back when you're feeling better."

"We'll Bang, OK?"


I don't know if you watched the Skyrim ones, but they're even better.

"I remember, when I was a little girl in France, we used to pick pretty Daisies. The boys from the village whispered my name. Baalgruf, oh Baalgruf!"


"Papa, Mother is making me do kitchen work again."

"Sigh, Son, your mother will pay for this! Get my Bat!"

"Papa don't hurt her!"





Get your groove on, soldier. Those boys work hard and they play harder.

Or the LA noire one...

"LAPD MOTHERF*CKER"

#41641
paxxton

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byne wrote...

Page 1666:devil:


We're all going to burn in hell for that. Posted Image

Modifié par paxxton, 22 avril 2012 - 08:59 .


#41642
Raistlin Majare 1992

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LelianaHawke wrote...

My key problem with the indoctrination theory is that it adds a massive plot hole at best, and results in an auto win for the reapers at worst.

All through the trilogy the reapers are shown to be almost invincible against conventional attacks. It takes an entire fleet with precise targeting just to take down one on the Quarian homeworld.

If Shepard doesn't managed to activate the Crucible (i.e. it is all a hallucination), then the reapers destroy all the fleets.

The Crucible must fire in order to defeat the reapers, and I don't see how Shepard activating it from afar (indoctrination theory if everything goes fine), or activating it via a conversation with the lead AI is actually any different.


By "massive plot hole" I assume you mean the fact that Shepard still ahs to get up and finish the fight, right?

Well there is still a transport beam going to the Citadel not far  from Shepard when he gets up, if something...like a certain ship... was to distract Harbinger it would not take more than a few seconds to get through the transport beam.

After that It would probably be a quite different Citadel run, but in the end Shepard could still reach the control panel (which if we go by ME1 is located in the Council Chambers and not some random platform) and open the Citadel. The question is then what the Crucible does...oh well I will take just about anything as long as it is not the three options we have.

#41643
EpyonX3

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Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Yeah, that has been brought up a few times now.. sad thing is.. I don't want it to be true, because apparently I'm one of the few people who really loved EDI as a squadmate. To me it would suck if she was just a walking indoctrination device


She might actually turn out to be the real Reaper Doomsday Device.


I see you know your videos

"I care about you, Ash- Miranda - DAMMIT"


"I just wanted to Bang you. I'll come back when you're feeling better."

"We'll Bang, OK?"


I don't know if you watched the Skyrim ones, but they're even better.

"I remember, when I was a little girl in France, we used to pick pretty Daisies. The boys from the village whispered my name. Baalgruf, oh Baalgruf!"


"Papa, Mother is making me do kitchen work again."

"Sigh, Son, your mother will pay for this! Get my Bat!"

"Papa don't hurt her!"





Get your groove on, soldier. Those boys work hard and they play harder.

Or the LA noire one...

"LAPD MOTHERF*CKER"


*Gun shots blazing*

*puts injured cop back out in the open"

Modifié par EpyonX3, 22 avril 2012 - 09:03 .


#41644
Gorkan86

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paxxton wrote...
Master of Deception.
There is this Chinese saying about friends and enemies.


I've heard this saying.
But anyway EDI could kill him in hundred different ways.
Geths also carry the code of the reapers, they are indoctrinated? And now all quarians also be indoctrinated by the fact that communicate with the Geths?

#41645
Uncle Jo

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LelianaHawke wrote...

My key problem with the indoctrination theory is that it adds a massive plot hole at best, and results in an auto win for the reapers at worst.

All through the trilogy the reapers are shown to be almost invincible against conventional attacks. It takes an entire fleet with precise targeting just to take down one on the Quarian homeworld.

If Shepard doesn't managed to activate the Crucible (i.e. it is all a hallucination), then the reapers destroy all the fleets.

The Crucible must fire in order to defeat the reapers, and I don't see how Shepard activating it from afar (indoctrination theory if everything goes fine), or activating it via a conversation with the lead AI is actually any different.

Assuming the IT is true, Shep never made it to the Citadel. The fight is not over. Even if he wakes up on Earth (which means he broke the indoctrination attempt), he still has to run to the beam and find the activation panel for the crucible.

This also means that Bioware sold us a game without an ending....

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 22 avril 2012 - 09:07 .


#41646
byne

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LelianaHawke wrote...

My key problem with the indoctrination theory is that it adds a massive plot hole at best, and results in an auto win for the reapers at worst.

All through the trilogy the reapers are shown to be almost invincible against conventional attacks. It takes an entire fleet with precise targeting just to take down one on the Quarian homeworld.

If Shepard doesn't managed to activate the Crucible (i.e. it is all a hallucination), then the reapers destroy all the fleets.

The Crucible must fire in order to defeat the reapers, and I don't see how Shepard activating it from afar, or activating it via a conversation with the lead AI is actually any different.


I never bought the idea that the Reapers couldnt be defeated conventionally.

Sovereign was hard to take down, sure, but that was before we'd developed Thanix Cannons.

We see at least one Reaper taken down by just a few ships during the battle of Earth, not needing every ship focusing fire like Sovereign needed.

Also:

Codex Entry on Reaper Vulnerabilities...

In the case of a Reaper capital ship, these kinetic barriers can hold off the firepower of two dreadnoughts simultaneously, but three clearly causes strain, and four typically results in destruction. Weapons designed to maximize heat damage, such as the Thanix series, show better results against the Reapers than pure kinetic impacts

We have a lot more ships than the Reapers do, and a whole lot of them are now equipped with Thanix cannons.

Codex Entry on Reaper Vulnerabilities...

Reaper capital ships can turn faster than Citadel dreadnoughts, but to do so, they must lower their mass to a level unacceptable in combat situations. Consequently, it is possible for a dreadnought to emerge from FTL travel behind a capital ship, then bring its guns to bear faster than the Reaper can return fire. This is a poor tactic, however, against Reapers flying in proper formation.


This tactic was used with some degree of success during the Fall of Thessia:

Codex Entry on the Fall of Thessia...

The assault on Thessia did not go as smoothly as the Reapers' strikes against other races. While other species met the Reapers head-on, the asari resorted to dangerous hit-and-run tactics to harass their attackers. By engaging in guerilla strategies--blast a Reaper ship, then jumping to FTL where they could not be tracked--the asari forced the Reapers to remain on the defensive.

Unfortunately, the Reapers' greater numbers allowed them to accept certain losses, so they soon ignored the attacks against them and began orbital bombardment of Thessia. This in turn forced the asari to defend their homeworld with a more traditional stance, facing the Reaper forces directly. As soon as the Reapers landed on Thessia, the harvesting began.


During a battle like the Battle for Earth at the end of the game, with no need to defend the already devastated planet, you could simply continue using that tactic, as it clearly let the Asari forces take out a few Reapers before they switched tactics and bombarded Thessia.

Defeating the Reapers conventionally is very possible.

Even if none of that works, you can still just have the fleets retreat beyond the Sol relay, and then slam an asteroid into it like you did with the Alpha Relay.

Destroy the Sol system, but also destroy the Reapers.

Victory through Sacrifice, just like Casey Hudson said the theme of ME3 was going to be.

Modifié par byne, 22 avril 2012 - 09:07 .


#41647
byne

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paxxton wrote...

byne wrote...

Page 1666:devil:


We're all going to burn in hell for that. Posted Image


Well send the Reapers straight to Robot Hell.

#41648
Earthborn_Shepard

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EpyonX3 wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Yeah, that has been brought up a few times now.. sad thing is.. I don't want it to be true, because apparently I'm one of the few people who really loved EDI as a squadmate. To me it would suck if she was just a walking indoctrination device


She might actually turn out to be the real Reaper Doomsday Device.


I see you know your videos

"I care about you, Ash- Miranda - DAMMIT"


"I just wanted to Bang you. I'll come back when you're feeling better."

"We'll Bang, OK?"


I don't know if you watched the Skyrim ones, but they're even better.

"I remember, when I was a little girl in France, we used to pick pretty Daisies. The boys from the village whispered my name. Baalgruf, oh Baalgruf!"


"Papa, Mother is making me do kitchen work again."

"Sigh, Son, your mother will pay for this! Get my Bat!"

"Papa don't hurt her!"





Get your groove on, soldier. Those boys work hard and they play harder.

Or the LA noire one...

"LAPD MOTHERF*CKER"


*Gun shots blazing*

*puts injured cop back out in the open"


I just saw that part 3 of Skyrim is up

OOH this is the happiest day of my life!

#41649
SS2Dante

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

byne wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...



Thanks for missunderstanding (read my last post), and I still think the IT can be true and would say it even is true. I am just saying this doesn't prove or disprove anything, but is often misused as it's only connected to the Guardian.
If you would think about it all as you claim you would have noticed you get this information earlier too.


I noticed I got the information from the Reaper on Rannoch, I just dont find it compelling.

If godchild is real, he controls the Reapers, and the one on Rannoch is just saying what godchild wants it to say. Just because his minions agree with his flawed logic doesnt make him right.

If godchild isnt real, Shepard just took the reasoning offered by one single Reaper (who, like all Reapers, is a nation, independent, free of all weakness), and applied it to godchild as well.

Godchild and the Reaper on Rannoch agreeing doesnt really mean anything.

That is exactly what my post says, and as I said: there are many who seem to just saw that in the ending but never noticed it before, thus misusing it. And it happened often enough in this thread alone for me writing that post.


I'm pro IT and I think the godchilds logic is sound (assuming one is an ancient machine that needs organics alive and lives forever. I WILL NOT go into the argument again (Not got the energy :P look back abouy 20 pages :P)

However, I see no problem with this and the indoctrination. After all the best lies are half truths. It could be that the Reapers need organics to allow them to reproduce, and this is the reason they need organics to stay alive. hence wiping out advanced organics and synthetics every 50,000 years.

#41650
paxxton

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Gorkan86 wrote...

paxxton wrote...
Master of Deception.
There is this Chinese saying about friends and enemies.


I've heard this saying.
But anyway EDI could kill him in hundred different ways.
Geths also carry the code of the reapers, they are indoctrinated? And now all quarians also be indoctrinated by the fact that communicate with the Geths?


Or she could slowly and deceptively guide him into the Reapers' hands.