57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Storm258]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...
We should do a vid for youtube, where everybody does a short clip saying "I'm (forum name) and I HOLD THE LINE in (country)!" and then we put it all together

Nice idea, I support that!

[Uncle Jo]

Big Bad wrote...

I still say that Shepard and co.  should find a way to sneak inside of Harbinger and detonate a thermonuclear weapon of some kind.  I mean, how cool would that be?!?  Granted, I don't know how they would destroy the other 10,000 or so Reaper capital ships, but those are just minor details to be worked out!

Hell yeah! Assuming they could resist to a hell of Indoctrination Attempt (we're talking about the inside of Harbinger)

[Big Bad]

Uncle Jo wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...


Oops, sorry, I left out the bit of evidence for my assumption (besides the fact it's pretty basic stuff). The godchilds first words on low EMS are "Why are you here?" (or "what are you doing here?" Can't remember exact phrasing, youtube it ). He also states you have more options "than you deserve". This fits into IT, as the Reapers aren't actively trying to indoctrinate you, but in literal is a bit odd. Why would the godchild care about the size of your army?

And about not trying. It's heavily implied that the Reapers indoctrination is "always on" (hence artefacts indoctrinating people, despite simply being reaper machines). They never stop broadcasting the indoctrination signals. It is however stated that they can control the intensity of the signals (aka push the indoctrination on someone faster). That explains why you always end up in the dream.

And lastly, the dream we see is not a Reaper hologram. It's the visual representation of the battle in Shepards mind. The reapers aren't deciding what we see here, Shepard is (hence Shepard building it from memories). Since indoctrination ALWAYS involves the person CHOOSING to become indoctrinated, we must always see the destroy option (except the previously mentioned case of low EMS, in which case it reverts to the choice you made at the end of the last game, which I think we'll agree is a strikingly similar decision to destroy or control).

If red wasn't always visible then indoctrination wouldn't occur. It'd just be mind control. We (the player) MUST actively choose the option that causes our downfall.

Hope I've explained this clearly :S But fair enough if you don't agree

Your explanation is quite clear. Thanks ! I've already said it, I'm not against the IT and I don't buy the Starchild story. I just think that we are giving too much credit to Bioware. For me they just failed, for y reason (time, leaked script...)...

Further more I have to be 100% convinced before I start to believe in something. As long as something's disturbing me, I'll go on asking, even if some of my questions seem to be dumb... Glad it doesn't bother you and that can answer me calmly..

I think this (what I bolded) is true of a lot of us.  Even those of us who fall on the IT side still have questions that we would like to have answered.  But since we're all just waiting to get those answers and essentially no new information is availabe until then. . .SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE! 

[SS2Dante]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...


Actually, provided you accept this one assumption -

(Assumption - the more of a threat Shepard is, the more the Reapers want to indoctrinate him.)

- I think the low EMS thing ties in nicely. With low EMS they aren't pushing to indoctrinate you, so it simply defaults to whether you're "weak" (kept the collector base and only see the control option) or "strong" (destroyed it and so see destroy).

I accept your assumption. But no, I don't agree with you. With low EMS, you're nothing, you already lose. I (the Reapers) won't even bother to try to endoctrinate you (and certainly not give you the choice who could destroy me or breaks the indoctrination).

Edit: IMO if the IT was true, the destroy choice would have appeared as last choice, when your EMS are the highest

Oops, sorry, I left out the bit of evidence for my assumption (besides the fact it's pretty basic stuff). The godchilds first words on low EMS are "Why are you here?" (or "what are you doing here?" Can't remember exact phrasing, youtube it ). He also states you have more options "than you deserve". This fits into IT, as the Reapers aren't actively trying to indoctrinate you, but in literal is a bit odd. Why would the godchild care about the size of your army?

And about not trying. It's heavily implied that the Reapers indoctrination is "always on" (hence artefacts indoctrinating people, despite simply being reaper machines). They never stop broadcasting the indoctrination signals. It is however stated that they can control the intensity of the signals (aka push the indoctrination on someone faster). That explains why you always end up in the dream.

And lastly, the dream we see is not a Reaper hologram. It's the visual representation of the battle in Shepards mind. The reapers aren't deciding what we see here, Shepard is (hence Shepard building it from memories). Since indoctrination ALWAYS involves the person CHOOSING to become indoctrinated, we must always see the destroy option (except the previously mentioned case of low EMS, in which case it reverts to the choice you made at the end of the last game, which I think we'll agree is a strikingly similar decision to destroy or control).

If red wasn't always visible then indoctrination wouldn't occur. It'd just be mind control. We (the player) MUST actively choose the option that causes our downfall.

Hope I've explained this clearly :S But fair enough if you don't agree

Actually i dont think everyone gets a choice when it comes to Indoctrination, far from all actually. I think only those strong of will, who resist the direct control of Indoctrination recieves a choice which can trick them. I reason this because if everyone Indoctrinated made a choice logic says someone made the "right" choice at some point and resisted.

As presented by the IT the confrontation with TIM is that direct control part where the Reapers try to force Indoctriantion upon Shepard instead of tricking him and it is the part most victims dont get past.

Just my two cents.

Ah, but everyone who's indoctrinated believes that they are doing the "right" thing. We're kind of splitting hairs here, but I imagine the weak willed people simply reach the decision to control MUCH quicker than shepard did.

(not that I'm implying everyone sees the choice in the same way as Shep of course, I'm sure they all have personal and very plausible "crucible" scenes of their own.)

Definition of Crucible, as I'm sure everyone is aware:

"A place or occasion of severe test or trial " 

Oh, Bioware, you


EDIT - oops, bit of extra stuff I forgot to mention about the EMS. I know this is just repeating stuff but some people may not know - getting TIM to shoot himself means you only need 4000 EMS to get the extra ending, not 5000. NOTE: it does NOT just add 1000 to your EMS, it specifically lowers the requirement for the wake up ending. This is another piece of bizarre coding that is meaningless in the literal interpretation. In IT of course this is because the indcotrinated part of yourself "broke the spell" and so, presumably, you can "wake up" more quickly.

This is the sort of thing I'm talking about when I say there seems to be extra work put into the game for no apparent reason.

Modifié par SS2Dante, 22 avril 2012 - 10:04 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Uncle Jo wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

I still say that Shepard and co.  should find a way to sneak inside of Harbinger and detonate a thermonuclear weapon of some kind.  I mean, how cool would that be?!?  Granted, I don't know how they would destroy the other 10,000 or so Reaper capital ships, but those are just minor details to be worked out!

Hell yeah! Assuming they could resist to a hell of Indoctrination Attempt (we're talking about the inside of Harbinger)

Benezia was not Indoctrinated instantly even though she set foot inside Sovreign while he was still active. I think it would be quite feasible for a team which got inside to also get out without having to fear Indoctrination to much...except if they had prior contact to Indoctrination or spend days inside the Reaper.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 22 avril 2012 - 09:41 .

[byne]

Big Bad wrote...

I still say that Shepard and co.  should find a way to sneak inside of Harbinger and detonate a thermonuclear weapon of some kind.  I mean, how cool would that be?!?  Granted, I don't know how they would destroy the other 10,000 or so Reaper capital ships, but those are just minor details to be worked out!

I'd be glad if they just gave Harbinger a speaking roll.

Hell, his actor is even listed on the IMDB page as doing 'Additional Voices'.

They had Harbinger's actor, and didnt freaking use him to play Harbinger. I dont even...



*Tinfoil hat time*

I wonder what 'additional voices' he does? Dont some people say they hear a deeper voice mixed in with MaleShep/FemShep in the Catalyst's voice?

Seems like if they were trying to be secretive about it, they wouldnt credit Harby's actor as the Catalyst, and would just go with 'Additional Voices'.

I really doubt 'Additional Voices' in this case means just random background characters. That'd be like having Kal'Reegar's VA come back and doing just random voices of characters on the Citadel you dont interact with.

You could get anyone to do that. You wouldnt specifically go for someone who previously voiced an important character in past game.

[Gorkan86]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...


Benezia was not Indoctrinated instantly even though she set foot inside Sovreign while he was still active. I think it would be quite feasible for a team which got inside to also get out without having to fear Indoctrination to much...except if they had prior contact to Indoctrination or spend days inside the Reaper.

If they are asari.

[SS2Dante]

Uncle Jo wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...


Oops, sorry, I left out the bit of evidence for my assumption (besides the fact it's pretty basic stuff). The godchilds first words on low EMS are "Why are you here?" (or "what are you doing here?" Can't remember exact phrasing, youtube it ). He also states you have more options "than you deserve". This fits into IT, as the Reapers aren't actively trying to indoctrinate you, but in literal is a bit odd. Why would the godchild care about the size of your army?

And about not trying. It's heavily implied that the Reapers indoctrination is "always on" (hence artefacts indoctrinating people, despite simply being reaper machines). They never stop broadcasting the indoctrination signals. It is however stated that they can control the intensity of the signals (aka push the indoctrination on someone faster). That explains why you always end up in the dream.

And lastly, the dream we see is not a Reaper hologram. It's the visual representation of the battle in Shepards mind. The reapers aren't deciding what we see here, Shepard is (hence Shepard building it from memories). Since indoctrination ALWAYS involves the person CHOOSING to become indoctrinated, we must always see the destroy option (except the previously mentioned case of low EMS, in which case it reverts to the choice you made at the end of the last game, which I think we'll agree is a strikingly similar decision to destroy or control).

If red wasn't always visible then indoctrination wouldn't occur. It'd just be mind control. We (the player) MUST actively choose the option that causes our downfall.

Hope I've explained this clearly :S But fair enough if you don't agree

Your explanation is quite clear. Thanks ! I've already said it, I'm not against the IT and I don't buy the Starchild story. I just think that we are giving too much credit to Bioware. For me they just failed, for y reason (time, leaked script...)...

Further more I have to be 100% convinced before I start to believe in something. As long as something's disturbing me, I'll go on asking, even if some of my questions seem to be dumb... Glad it doesn't bother you and that can answer me calmly..

*shrug* if I meet anyone who claims to be "right" in this discussion (at least until Bioware chips in properly) then I'll know they aren't worth talking too. You seem perfectly reasonable and willing to discuss.

Now (forgive me, revising for my exams right now, so not going into it, I'm sure other people can elaborate) there are a few good reasons against the idea that Bioware ran out of time etc. , not the least of which is the simple fact that the endings are not the last thing made in a video game. They are made out of order in the same way as a film. Couple that with a few of the problems in the Citadel which seem to require extra effort to include, as opposed to less...

Anwway, that's my little bit said. Now off to revise.

Discussion of course is welcomed and encouraged

[schneeland]

byne wrote...

paxxton wrote...

byne wrote...

Page 1666! 

We're all going to burn in hell for that.

Well send the Reapers straight to Robot Hell.

Such a shame that Diablo fans can start sending right when we reached page 1666, but we still have to wait *grumble, grumble*

[lex0r11]

byne wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

I still say that Shepard and co.  should find a way to sneak inside of Harbinger and detonate a thermonuclear weapon of some kind.  I mean, how cool would that be?!?  Granted, I don't know how they would destroy the other 10,000 or so Reaper capital ships, but those are just minor details to be worked out!

I'd be glad if they just gave Harbinger a speaking roll.

Hell, his actor is even listed on the IMDB page as doing 'Additional Voices'.

They had Harbinger's actor, and didnt freaking use him to play Harbinger. I dont even...



*Tinfoil hat time*

I wonder what 'additional voices' he does? Dont some people say they hear a deeper voice mixed in with MaleShep/FemShep in the Catalyst's voice?

Seems like if they were trying to be secretive about it, they wouldnt credit Harby's actor as the Catalyst, and would just go with 'Additional Voices'.

I really doubt 'Additional Voices' in this case means just random background characters. That'd be like having Kal'Reegar's VA come back and doing just random voices of characters on the Citadel you dont interact with.

You could get anyone to do that. You wouldnt specifically go for someone who previously voiced an important character in past game.

[byne]

SS2Dante wrote...

Ah, but everyone who's indoctrinated believes that they are doing the "right" thing. We're kind of splitting hairs here, but I imagine the weak willed people simply reach the decision to control MUCH quicker than shepard did.

(not that I'm implying everyone sees the choice in the same way as Shep of course, I'm sure they all have personal and very plausible "crucible" scenes of their own.)

Definition of Crucible, as I'm sure everyone is aware:

"A place or occasion of severe test or trial " 

Oh, Bioware, you

From the OP:

Catalyst =
One that precipitates a process or event, especially without being involved in or changed by the consequences


Crucible=
A severe test, as of patience or belief; a trial.


I always found those two definitions to be interesting.

[Gorkan86]

byne wrote...

You could get anyone to do that. You wouldnt specifically go for someone who previously voiced an important character in past game.

Yea, thats why Mshep actor also voiced the vorcha.

Modifié par Gorkan86, 22 avril 2012 - 09:48 .

[Earthborn_Shepard]

Dude that screenshot just made me jump.

[Uncle Jo]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...


Benezia was not Indoctrinated instantly even though she set foot inside Sovreign while he was still active. I think it would be quite feasible for a team which got inside to also get out without having to fear Indoctrination to much...except if they had prior contact to Indoctrination or spend days inside the Reaper.

I know but here the case is slightly different. Harbinger won't bother to try to slowly indoctrinate you, since you want to nuke him. He'll probably give all that he got to turn you into a decerebrated husk, in order to save his ass...

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 22 avril 2012 - 09:49 .

[byne]

Gorkan86 wrote...

byne wrote...

You could get anyone to do that. You wouldnt specifically go for someone who previously voiced an important character in past game.

Yea, thats why Mshep actor also voicing the vorcha.

But see, in this case, it'd be like never having MaleShep speak throughout the entire game, but still having him voice the vorcha. It wouldnt make sense.

[schneeland]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Just a quick question, what will we do when this hits 2000 pages? Will there be cake?

Sure. EDI will make it.


And on page 2001 she will announce that the cake was a lie ... also, it will be revealed that the reapers were in fact not controlled by hologram kid but by HAL 9000.

[byne]

schneeland wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Just a quick question, what will we do when this hits 2000 pages? Will there be cake?

Sure. EDI will make it.


And on page 2001 she will announce that the cake was a lie ... also, it will be revealed that the reapers were in fact not controlled by hologram kid but by HAL 9000.

And we can have this, but with the Reapers instead of turrets!

[Gorkan86]

byne wrote...

But see, in this case, it'd be like never having MaleShep speak throughout the entire game, but still having him voice the vorcha. It wouldnt make sense.

I see. Man is just doing its job anyway.

[BleedingUranium]

byne wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

I still say that Shepard and co.  should find a way to sneak inside of Harbinger and detonate a thermonuclear weapon of some kind.  I mean, how cool would that be?!?  Granted, I don't know how they would destroy the other 10,000 or so Reaper capital ships, but those are just minor details to be worked out!

I'd be glad if they just gave Harbinger a speaking roll.

Hell, his actor is even listed on the IMDB page as doing 'Additional Voices'.

They had Harbinger's actor, and didnt freaking use him to play Harbinger. I dont even...



*Tinfoil hat time*

I wonder what 'additional voices' he does? Dont some people say they hear a deeper voice mixed in with MaleShep/FemShep in the Catalyst's voice?

Seems like if they were trying to be secretive about it, they wouldnt credit Harby's actor as the Catalyst, and would just go with 'Additional Voices'.

I really doubt 'Additional Voices' in this case means just random background characters. That'd be like having Kal'Reegar's VA come back and doing just random voices of characters on the Citadel you dont interact with.

You could get anyone to do that. You wouldnt specifically go for someone who previously voiced an important character in past game.

This always bothered me, and I think it's very important.

Also, I think they knew they wouldn't have time to make the game as well as they wanted, so instead of making it like Halo 2, where they chopped off the end, or like Crysis 2, when the overall game suffered as a result, they decided, because Mass Effect is a series that's always had campaign DLC, they'll make the story end somewhere (the shipped ending), let people try to figure it out (like we're doing), and then build the ending post launch, because they have time.

Not ruining your game because of your publisher's deadlines actually does sound like artisic integrity to me

[schneeland]

byne wrote...

schneeland wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Just a quick question, what will we do when this hits 2000 pages? Will there be cake?

Sure. EDI will make it.


And on page 2001 she will announce that the cake was a lie ... also, it will be revealed that the reapers were in fact not controlled by hologram kid but by HAL 9000.

And we can have this, but with the Reapers instead of turrets!

Perfect. I always wanted to see Harbinger singing and dancing.

[lex0r11]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Dude that screenshot just made me jump.

Really? That wasn't my intention if you mean my post.

Tut mir leid.

[Earthborn_Shepard]

schneeland wrote...

byne wrote...

schneeland wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Just a quick question, what will we do when this hits 2000 pages? Will there be cake?

Sure. EDI will make it.


And on page 2001 she will announce that the cake was a lie ... also, it will be revealed that the reapers were in fact not controlled by hologram kid but by HAL 9000.

And we can have this, but with the Reapers instead of turrets!

Perfect. I always wanted to see Harbinger singing and dancing.

Modifié par Earthborn_Shepard, 22 avril 2012 - 09:59 .

[MaximizedAction]

BleedingUranium wrote...

[...]

Also, I think they knew they wouldn't have time to make the game as well as they wanted, so instead of making it like Halo 2, where they chopped off the end, or like Crysis 2, when the overall game suffered as a result, they decided, because Mass Effect is a series that's always had campaign DLC, they'll make the story end somewhere (the shipped ending), let people try to figure it out (like we're doing), and then build the ending post launch, because they have time.

Not ruining your game because of your publisher's deadlines actually does sound like artisic integrity to me

Nice interpretation!

[schneeland]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...
[...]

I should go.

[Big G13]

lex0r11 wrote...

Marauder Shields

Yes, he tried to save us from something. Was it from the ending? No! I think he was trying to wake us up! He was trying to shield us from deception. He wanted us to see the real end to our journey.
So here is to remember Maruder Shields and his sacrifice. May we succeed to wake up Shepard in his stead!

May a 1000 pages full of people call out:

Maurauder Shields is our Hero!


youtu.be/uNoIwHychkY#t=00m17s
Manly tears were shed.


By Jobasha from BSN:

Marauder Shields, Marauder Shields
The Husk who held the Line
The Guardian of the Endings
The Protector of our Mind
He tried to save you from yourself
From madness for all time
Lest you advanced into nonsense
Stood fast and held the Line





Hold the line
Wake up Shepard

TOTALY worth bumping.