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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#41951
Hawk227

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spotlessvoid wrote...

Exactly. I also found the overlapping dialogue/grunting, and Anderson and Shepard both grunting when Shepard shoots Anderson to be pretty telling.
Combine that with all the visual anomalies/clues in the ending alone, and you have two different departments screwing up and inserting random things that just happen to all hint at one thing.
Add the crazy narrative and it seems really unlikely all three teams got lazy/rushed and it's coincidence their "mistakes" fit so well into one theory -that happens to be one of absolute core themes of the series- but yet it was all done by accident. Right


Yeah. I have to say, the more I think about Shepard getting TIM's eyes in control/synth. endings the more telling I think it is. I understand there's a lot of debate over whether those eyes are a result of indoctrination (only he had them), but TIM is pretty strongly associated with indoctrination in ME3. Those eyes are associated with TIM, and he's associated with indoctrination. Following Aryan's Law of Conservation of Details, why add those into the cinematic? To tell us that shepard had implants after dying in ME2? What's the point? That's irrelevant. But telling us that Shepard now has something in common with TIM....

Plus the 3 voiced catalyst? Why do that? Again Conservation of Details. What's the point outside IT.

#41952
pro5

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Interesting find, bump for those who missed it:

Leto_Galt wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

Leto_Galt wrote...
I was looking through some save game editing plot flags and noticed that the line for End001 (Destroy) is different than End002 and End003. Destroy Sets 3 PlotIDs for the future.Not only do Synth and Control not set 3Ids. They do not even set 1.

End001,
PlotIDSet=(20894,19290,19286),
PlotIDClear=(),
PlotInts=((ID=10185,V=26),(ID=10303,V=25)),
PlotCond=())

End002,
PlotIDSet=(),
PlotIDClear=(),
PlotInts=((ID=10202,V=21)),
PlotCond=())

End003,
PlotIDSet=(),
PlotIDClear=(),
PlotInts=((ID=10203,V=22)),
PlotCond=())

I don't understand exactly how the game engine uses these PlotIDs, but from a layman’s point of view it looks like it's either;
Pick destroy, and have a future, or Synth/Control and not have a future.
Bioware does not even bother to track which one you picked if it wasn't destroy.
As far as they are concerned synthesis & control are the same thing. = Indoctrinated.


So, you're saying these plot codes have no known current value in the game?



Not really, but yes that should be true as well.
Basically the PlotIDs are used so the game knows what you have done in the past.

A list of all that I know about is available here - http://pastebin.com/zv8mxcxs

My point was that IF there is any post game DLC, your save file will only know if you chose destroy or not. It doesn't seem to care or differentiate between Synthesis and Control.

I interpret this to mean that since both Synthesis and Control end up with Shepard indoctrinated. The save file doesn't care what path you took to get there.



MeldarthX wrote...

Computim wrote...

MeldarthX wrote...

Computim wrote...

NICE FIND!

More than likely it's related to that If you choose Control (We'll call it ending 1 for simplicity, 2 Synthesis, 3 destroy), it then sets a variable saying you chose ending 1.  It then does an IF THEN check (IF Ending == 1) ...etc and then checks your EMS rating... so

IF (Ending == 3)
{
          IF (EMS > 4000)
          {
                      ShowMovie(DestroyBreathEndingMovie);   
          }

}

I suspect that's all there is in this case... it just once again shows that if you choose anything but destroy you're getting the same ending save a couple other characters coming out at the end.

Destroy, if it's true EDI doesn't come out, probably just factors into that condition statement.


Nope - doesn't have to do with EDI coming out or if you get shepard breathing - if you follow the thread - they checked that.......this check happens on all endings but only becomes checkmarked on destroy - doesn't matter your EMS - its checkmarked.


...I guess I've just become Cynical.. I doubt Bioware PLANNED all this haha.



If you've listened from the beginning like that I have - everything that's come from BW - all the different tweets - they did.......they planned this - they knew people were going to be pissed about the ending - they planned for it - Look at Casey's statement of polarising their fans -

What they weren't expecting is how many and how quickly people got together to say - this ending sucks.  They thought they'd have until end of April - May time frame to finish to full endings and release them for free.

The plan didn't work out - more and more details come out -

As its seen  - the code doesn't lie


Modifié par pro5, 23 avril 2012 - 08:18 .


#41953
Gorkan86

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
Oh and really your excuse is that they could not take the kid along because it was to dangerous? Shepard managed to rescue the Normandy crew form the center of the Collector base and safely evac them. Compared to that svaing a single kid is childsplay (pun intended.)



There is some difference. There, Shepard was the team's best fighters in the galaxy, they were based on where there was no two-kilometer reapers blowing up the building with its laser. Shepard was ready for it.
Here is the opposite. He is without a team, he tries to escape, along with Andersen. And unfortunately he was unable to save the child.


Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

You must also remember that the Reapers, especially Harbinger, has an interest in Shepard and the codex of Indoctrination mentions how a well placed Indoctrinated individual can cause immense damage. It happened to the Batarians where the sciencetist who had been examining the Leviathan of Dis were Indocrtinated and sabotaged the Batarian defense system when teh Reapers arrived.



Fortunately, the reapers have not received Shepard.


Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...


Now imagine Shepard, the spearhead of the combined fleets of the galaxy Indoctrinated.

Such a failure is not valid for Shepard.

#41954
Raistlin Majare 1992

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Gorkan86 wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...


 It is described or shown in the form of Saren or Benezia (especially Benezia with her describtions of how Sarens words subtly creeps into your skull until you are nodding along with what he says without even noticing it, or something along those lines) to be subtle and something which chnages your basic perceptions to align them more with the Reapers without the victim even noticing it. 

Another example would be Legions loyalty mission from ME2. The virus from the mission alters the geth at te basic level changing a program to give a different result and as such altering all higher conclusions. It is subtle but all changing just like Indoctrination. oh and in case you are thinking im grasping at straws with the entire Geth Indoctrination part you should know that Garrus quote when presented with the plan to rewrite the heretics is "Sounds and awful lot like Indoctrination to me" and several squadmates have similar quotes.


Saren and Benezia its like TIM and Shepard, in the end.

What about Shiala? 

"This is not necessarily a bad thing. As we fight back the Reapers, we feel each other, and act with one mind, ignoring pain when the need arises. I'm sure I'm still indoctrinated. I remember Sovereign's voice in my mind when I went willingly to the Thorian as its thrall. But my connection to the people of Zhu's Hope is stronger. It drowns out the Reaper voices."

This is from her letter to Shepard.


I take it you are refering to the Sovreign voice part? I dont see any part in that where it mentions the voice as "commanding." In fact just like Saren and Benezia did at the end Shiala sees that she was Indoctrinated. The very fact that she says she went willingly to the Thorian is pretty clear piece of towards the subleties of Indoctrination. She dosent say she was "commanded" she says "willingly."

As for her resisting Indoctrination hiveminds have been shown to resist Indoctrination better than single minds. This is shown here in the connection the colonists share through the after effect of the Thorians Spores and also in the Rachni where the queen is not under Indoctrination and has to be kept captive by the Reapers so they can exploit her children.

Off course it is implied that there was Indoctrination involved in the Rachni wars in the entire "sour yellow note from space" but we dont know to what extent and fact i the Queen is not Indoctrinated despite beeing captured by the Reapers (unless offcourse you killed the queen in the first game and for whatever reason decdied to spare the fake queen)

#41955
Arian Dynas

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Also, mentioned this before, but I thought I would point it out again.

With the ending at face value, not only is the entirety of ME1 rendered nonsensical, but The Arrival is rendered pointless. There literally was no reason to have that story at all if you take the endings at face value. The only significant reasons story-wise are to give Shepard a reason to be under hack when he's on Earth, which is mostly pointless unless it't to show "Hey, Shepard had time to stew!" and to have the encounter with Harbinger/Object Rho.

Considering Arrival was being made at the same time ME3 was, they wouldn't invalidate the whole DLC and render it a Red Herring.

#41956
spotlessvoid

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Gorkan86 wrote...



There is some difference. There, Shepard was the team's best fighters in the galaxy, they were based on where there was no two-kilometer reapers blowing up the building with its laser. Shepard was ready for it.
Here is the opposite. He is without a team, he tries to escape, along with Andersen. And unfortunately he was unable to save the child.


So Shepard isn't strong enough and fails....



Gorkan86 wrote...
Such a failure is not valid for Shepard.



But Shepard is too tough to fail?

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 23 avril 2012 - 08:26 .


#41957
gunslinger_ruiz

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Hm potential reasoning for Indoctrination throughout the game.

Seeing as Shepard has been near and in direct contact with Reaper technology it's not impossible that the mark of indoctrination is somewhere in your mind but not in an ample enough a manner for you to become a husk, or maybe you are too resistant to it's affects.

Once the Reapers land on Earth they attempt to take control of Shepard through this "mark", this is when you see the boy in the vent who seemingly disappears. Shepard's mind is somehow too much for the Reapers to take direct control of, you resist where NO OTHER organic in existence has and continue on your mission to rally the galaxy.

The Reapers may be surprised, but not unprepared. They continue to attempt taking direct control of you when you are feeling weak or stressed, sending their indoctrination signal in forms of your Nightmares. Nightmares that get progressively worse, potentially the Reaper signal getting stronger. The only thing that wakes you is the shock of seeing the boy engulfed in fire, and yourself engulfed in the last nightmare as well. Possible the fire is your mind/willpowers way of warning you, snapping you out of indoctrination.

The Illusive Man is obviously indoctrinated, everything he says and does is what the Reapers want him to do. They allow him discover their control signal, allow him to figure out how to implant a means to emit this control signal in some kind of cybernetic implant (you can see him getting ready for some kind of surgical procedure in a video log in his base).

Harbinger sets the stage during the Beam run, grazing Shepard enough to nearly kill him/her when it can just as easily make Shepard into dust with it's cannons.Shepard is weakened enough for The Illusive Man (perhaps from the Citadel while Shepard is unconscious) to act as a signal booster to assume control of Shepard.

Shepard "wakes up," but is really still fighting off indoctrination from that point when you open your eyes and grab that Carifex hand cannon, everything preceding is your struggle against the Reaper signal. The Illusive Man, implanting himself in your hallucination, does is best to convert you to his way of thinking, he "needs you to believe," him, therefore, the Reapers need you to believe them. Anderson is there as a manifestation of your willpower, when you are forced to shoot him, you begin to bleed out from the same wound. You can convince The Illusive Man through paragon dialogue that he is indoctrinated, he will opt for shooting himself and potentially killing himself in the real world, "the body cannot live without the mind." Through renegade dialogue or action you can shoot him yourself. Both of these result in his death and puts a stop to the "signal boost" he provided, allowing you to progress in the hallucination as desired opening the Citadel arms and relaxing next to Anderson. Anderson, or your willpower, was gravely wounded by TIM's indoctrination, he therefore served his purpose in weakening your will. TIM's death WOULD NOT end indoctrination since the Reapers are the true power behind the indoctrination signal.

Anderson/your willpower dies, and you pass out crawling to the Citadel control panel. This is what the Reapers wanted, and they assume full control over the indoctrination attempt thanks to TIM. The Catalyst gives you three choices, each of them with odd explanations. Everything about the room seems surreal, your own voice coming from the Catalyst, the echo in the room, the Catalyst appearing as the child you failed.

You pick the blue option, you appear to become a husk with The Illusive Man's eyes (something I relate to being a Reaper agent now.) And the last of your will dies as you disintegrate in dream. When you awake in the real world, your body and it's unique ability to resist the Reapers now belong to them.

The green option is much the same, though I view it more as leaping directly into the Reaper's influence than trying to take control over it. It ends with the same result as blue.

You take the red option. The only choice that seems sane, you go out gun blazing defeating the Reapers in your hallucination despite the potential consequence to the Geth, EDI, and yourself, "Even you are partly synthetic." You will overpowers the Reaper's influence. You wake up in the pile of rubble on Earth, near the Beam, nearly dead from Harbingers attack. But you still draw breath.

Resiting the elaborate indoctrination attempt may even cause the entire Reaper fleet to stumble for moments, precious moments that the Allied fleet can use to decimate Reaper numbers. Similar to when you defeated the possessed Saren in ME1, Sovereign assumed direct control of his corpse and with his defeat Sovereign was stunned just long enough to be destroyed.

I hope to see something alluding to this in Extended Cut, but we can only hope.

#41958
Hawk227

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Arian Dynas wrote...

Also, mentioned this before, but I thought I would point it out again.

With the ending at face value, not only is the entirety of ME1 rendered nonsensical, but The Arrival is rendered pointless. There literally was no reason to have that story at all if you take the endings at face value. The only significant reasons story-wise are to give Shepard a reason to be under hack when he's on Earth, which is mostly pointless unless it't to show "Hey, Shepard had time to stew!" and to have the encounter with Harbinger/Object Rho.

Considering Arrival was being made at the same time ME3 was, they wouldn't invalidate the whole DLC and render it a Red Herring.


Yeah, I made this point a couple nights ago. Considering that the relays "didn't supernova" in literal ending, they really just threw that whole DLC out. All thats left is a couple pissed off Batarians.

Also, at the end of LotSB, Liara says the shadow broker spent a lot of effort researching the Protheans, hoping that they had one more secret in the fight against the Reapers. This strikes me as foreshadowing the crucible (after all, Liara found the plans). So if they were foreshadowing ME3 as early as LotSB, doesn't that give Arrival even more weight?

#41959
Raistlin Majare 1992

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Gorkan86 wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
Oh and really your excuse is that they could not take the kid along because it was to dangerous? Shepard managed to rescue the Normandy crew form the center of the Collector base and safely evac them. Compared to that svaing a single kid is childsplay (pun intended.)



There is some difference. There, Shepard was the team's best fighters in the galaxy, they were based on where there was no two-kilometer reapers blowing up the building with its laser. Shepard was ready for it.
Here is the opposite. He is without a team, he tries to escape, along with Andersen. And unfortunately he was unable to save the child.


Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

You must also remember that the Reapers, especially Harbinger, has an interest in Shepard and the codex of Indoctrination mentions how a well placed Indoctrinated individual can cause immense damage. It happened to the Batarians where the sciencetist who had been examining the Leviathan of Dis were Indocrtinated and sabotaged the Batarian defense system when teh Reapers arrived.



Fortunately, the reapers have not received Shepard.


Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...


Now imagine Shepard, the spearhead of the combined fleets of the galaxy Indoctrinated.

Such a failure is not valid for Shepard.



"Not received Shepard"

"Such a failure is not valid for Shepard"

What the hell do these two sentences even mean in context to what I said? Do you mean to say that Shepard is to strongwilled to be Indoctrinated?

Shepard is far stronger than an average human after his rebuilding. This is shown in Lair of the Shadow Broker when he goes hand to hand with a Yagh and in ME2 he is capable of using a Shotgun which in the describtion states that a human who fires it will break his arm from recoil. Put those two together and Shepard could probably have taken that kid over his shoulder and it woyuld have not even slowed him down.

And do you seriusly beleive that Shepard would make such a choice in that situation? It is not Shepard who says he cant rescure the kid, he tries to help the kid and had the kid come to him he would have protected him all the way to the Nomandy without a shadow of doubt.

Also in regards to the kid, fact is that noone but Shepard ever seem to notice the kid. Not Anderson, not the Soldiers near the shuttle (despite helping other people aboard) and he somehow runs through a locked door and survives the Reaper blowing up the house he is in. Oh and this is not even mnetioning that the house is not even near the one where we saw him for the first time.

#41960
spotlessvoid

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Do you think Bioware overestimated how many of their core fanbase would eventually pick up on all the IDT clues, or is it more likely they underestimated the ferocity of the backlash and wanted indoctrination to be a DLC reveal? Or is it that everything is basically going to plan?

#41961
Gorkan86

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spotlessvoid wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...



There is some difference. There, Shepard was the team's best fighters in the galaxy, they were based on where there was no two-kilometer reapers blowing up the building with its laser. Shepard was ready for it.
Here is the opposite. He is without a team, he tries to escape, along with Andersen. And unfortunately he was unable to save the child.


So Shepard isn't strong enough and fails....



Gorkan86 wrote...
Such a failure is not valid for Shepard.



But Shepard is too tough to fail?


Even tough characters are sometimes mistaken. Leaving the Earth and the inability to save the child is not the fault of Shepard, but he reproaches himself for it. He was defeated on the Tesiia and almost died, but he survived to continue the fight. He even put up with it.
But there are some things that Shepard can not fail.

#41962
Raistlin Majare 1992

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gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Hm potential reasoning for Indoctrination throughout the game.

Seeing as Shepard has been near and in direct contact with Reaper technology it's not impossible that the mark of indoctrination is somewhere in your mind but not in an ample enough a manner for you to become a husk, or maybe you are too resistant to it's affects.

Once the Reapers land on Earth they attempt to take control of Shepard through this "mark", this is when you see the boy in the vent who seemingly disappears. Shepard's mind is somehow too much for the Reapers to take direct control of, you resist where NO OTHER organic in existence has and continue on your mission to rally the galaxy.

The Reapers may be surprised, but not unprepared. They continue to attempt taking direct control of you when you are feeling weak or stressed, sending their indoctrination signal in forms of your Nightmares. Nightmares that get progressively worse, potentially the Reaper signal getting stronger. The only thing that wakes you is the shock of seeing the boy engulfed in fire, and yourself engulfed in the last nightmare as well. Possible the fire is your mind/willpowers way of warning you, snapping you out of indoctrination.

The Illusive Man is obviously indoctrinated, everything he says and does is what the Reapers want him to do. They allow him discover their control signal, allow him to figure out how to implant a means to emit this control signal in some kind of cybernetic implant (you can see him getting ready for some kind of surgical procedure in a video log in his base).

Harbinger sets the stage during the Beam run, grazing Shepard enough to nearly kill him/her when it can just as easily make Shepard into dust with it's cannons.Shepard is weakened enough for The Illusive Man (perhaps from the Citadel while Shepard is unconscious) to act as a signal booster to assume control of Shepard.

Shepard "wakes up," but is really still fighting off indoctrination from that point when you open your eyes and grab that Carifex hand cannon, everything preceding is your struggle against the Reaper signal. The Illusive Man, implanting himself in your hallucination, does is best to convert you to his way of thinking, he "needs you to believe," him, therefore, the Reapers need you to believe them. Anderson is there as a manifestation of your willpower, when you are forced to shoot him, you begin to bleed out from the same wound. You can convince The Illusive Man through paragon dialogue that he is indoctrinated, he will opt for shooting himself and potentially killing himself in the real world, "the body cannot live without the mind." Through renegade dialogue or action you can shoot him yourself. Both of these result in his death and puts a stop to the "signal boost" he provided, allowing you to progress in the hallucination as desired opening the Citadel arms and relaxing next to Anderson. Anderson, or your willpower, was gravely wounded by TIM's indoctrination, he therefore served his purpose in weakening your will. TIM's death WOULD NOT end indoctrination since the Reapers are the true power behind the indoctrination signal.

Anderson/your willpower dies, and you pass out crawling to the Citadel control panel. This is what the Reapers wanted, and they assume full control over the indoctrination attempt thanks to TIM. The Catalyst gives you three choices, each of them with odd explanations. Everything about the room seems surreal, your own voice coming from the Catalyst, the echo in the room, the Catalyst appearing as the child you failed.

You pick the blue option, you appear to become a husk with The Illusive Man's eyes (something I relate to being a Reaper agent now.) And the last of your will dies as you disintegrate in dream. When you awake in the real world, your body and it's unique ability to resist the Reapers now belong to them.

The green option is much the same, though I view it more as leaping directly into the Reaper's influence than trying to take control over it. It ends with the same result as blue.

You take the red option. The only choice that seems sane, you go out gun blazing defeating the Reapers in your hallucination despite the potential consequence to the Geth, EDI, and yourself, "Even you are partly synthetic." You will overpowers the Reaper's influence. You wake up in the pile of rubble on Earth, near the Beam, nearly dead from Harbingers attack. But you still draw breath.

Resiting the elaborate indoctrination attempt may even cause the entire Reaper fleet to stumble for moments, precious moments that the Allied fleet can use to decimate Reaper numbers. Similar to when you defeated the possessed Saren in ME1, Sovereign assumed direct control of his corpse and with his defeat Sovereign was stunned just long enough to be destroyed.

I hope to see something alluding to this in Extended Cut, but we can only hope.


If by making the fleet stumble you refer to the Saren Incident with Sovreign it is mentioned in the codex on the Reapers that that mistake has been corrected.

#41963
Raistlin Majare 1992

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Gorkan86 wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...



There is some difference. There, Shepard was the team's best fighters in the galaxy, they were based on where there was no two-kilometer reapers blowing up the building with its laser. Shepard was ready for it.
Here is the opposite. He is without a team, he tries to escape, along with Andersen. And unfortunately he was unable to save the child.


So Shepard isn't strong enough and fails....



Gorkan86 wrote...
Such a failure is not valid for Shepard.



But Shepard is too tough to fail?


Even tough characters are sometimes mistaken. Leaving the Earth and the inability to save the child is not the fault of Shepard, but he reproaches himself for it. He was defeated on the Tesiia and almost died, but he survived to continue the fight. He even put up with it.
But there are some things that Shepard can not fail.


Oh and I am sure you have a long and elaborate describtion as to why Shepard as the only non-hiveminded beeing in the entire Galaxy is immune to Indoctrination when strong willed people like Matriach Benezia and Saren (the top Spectre) succumbed.

#41964
spotlessvoid

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Gorkan86 have you read page 1? A lot of the questions you're asking have been answered there

#41965
Stigweird85

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LelianaHawke wrote...

My key problem with the indoctrination theory is that it adds a massive plot hole at best, and results in an auto win for the reapers at worst.

All through the trilogy the reapers are shown to be almost invincible against conventional attacks. It takes an entire fleet with precise targeting just to take down one on the Quarian homeworld.

If Shepard doesn't managed to activate the Crucible (i.e. it is all a hallucination), then the reapers destroy all the fleets.

The Crucible must fire in order to defeat the reapers, and I don't see how Shepard activating it from afar (indoctrination theory if everything goes fine), or activating it via a conversation with the lead AI is actually any different.


Why do you think that the Cruicible is the only way to defeat the reapers, Soverign was taken down by "coventional means" okay it took the might of most the galactic fleet but they are not indestructible. For example Reapers are mostly machine, a gigantic EMP would disable them. We can generate these with current tech so it is plausible that with future tech we could generate a big enough pulse.(I thought of assumed this is what destroy did as an EMP would kill all electrical devices.

It is also well established that no one really knows what the cruicble actually does. For all we know when it is switched on a giant flag with the word bang comes out. However IT doesn't state that it is all an illusion just the final segment i.e. After being hit by Harbringer beam. IT doesn't automatically mean the reapers win, it means that the battle isn't over.

Sorry if this was already answered, (about 10pages behind)

#41966
gunslinger_ruiz

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

*snip for page length*.


If by making the fleet stumble you refer to the Saren Incident with Sovreign it is mentioned in the codex on the Reapers that that mistake has been corrected.


Not quite what I mean,  simply killing someone like The Illusive Man could cause that effect IF it was not corrected.

BUT I believe resisting the Reaper signal could still disrupt them, cause some kind of feedback via your willpower and the indoctrination attempt.

#41967
spotlessvoid

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Gorkan86 wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...



There is some difference. There, Shepard was the team's best fighters in the galaxy, they were based on where there was no two-kilometer reapers blowing up the building with its laser. Shepard was ready for it.
Here is the opposite. He is without a team, he tries to escape, along with Andersen. And unfortunately he was unable to save the child.


So Shepard isn't strong enough and fails....



Gorkan86 wrote...
Such a failure is not valid for Shepard.



But Shepard is too tough to fail?


Even tough characters are sometimes mistaken. Leaving the Earth and the inability to save the child is not the fault of Shepard, but he reproaches himself for it. He was defeated on the Tesiia and almost died, but he survived to continue the fight. He even put up with it.
But there are some things that Shepard can not fail.


But there are some things that Shepard can not fail?

How did you come to that conclusion? Seriously, what makes you assume that?

#41968
gunslinger_ruiz

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bigstig wrote...

LelianaHawke wrote...

My key problem with the indoctrination theory is that it adds a massive plot hole at best, and results in an auto win for the reapers at worst.

All through the trilogy the reapers are shown to be almost invincible against conventional attacks. It takes an entire fleet with precise targeting just to take down one on the Quarian homeworld.

If Shepard doesn't managed to activate the Crucible (i.e. it is all a hallucination), then the reapers destroy all the fleets.

The Crucible must fire in order to defeat the reapers, and I don't see how Shepard activating it from afar (indoctrination theory if everything goes fine), or activating it via a conversation with the lead AI is actually any different.


Why do you think that the Cruicible is the only way to defeat the reapers, Soverign was taken down by "coventional means" okay it took the might of most the galactic fleet but they are not indestructible. For example Reapers are mostly machine, a gigantic EMP would disable them. We can generate these with current tech so it is plausible that with future tech we could generate a big enough pulse.(I thought of assumed this is what destroy did as an EMP would kill all electrical devices.

It is also well established that no one really knows what the cruicble actually does. For all we know when it is switched on a giant flag with the word bang comes out. However IT doesn't state that it is all an illusion just the final segment i.e. After being hit by Harbringer beam. IT doesn't automatically mean the reapers win, it means that the battle isn't over.

Sorry if this was already answered, (about 10pages behind)


Two things. If Indoctrination Theory is true then the Crucible hasn't been fired YET, even if it is the only means to defeat the Reapers you can still fire it after "waking up" from the indoctrination.

Second thing. EMPs work both ways, if you fire a giant one off you'd be disabling the Allied fleet as well unless the entire Allied fleet shut off all systems and without those systems (weapons, shieldings, engines) you are going to get eaten alive by Reapers before you can push the EMP button. Also, Reaper tech is eons more advanced then our technology, it's not impossible that an EMP would have little to no effect on them through their almost-impenitrable barriers and advanced circutry. It might do SOMETHING but more than likely it will just ****** them off while your  essential systems are down/stuck restarting.

#41969
Raistlin Majare 1992

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bigstig wrote...

LelianaHawke wrote...

My key problem with the indoctrination theory is that it adds a massive plot hole at best, and results in an auto win for the reapers at worst.

All through the trilogy the reapers are shown to be almost invincible against conventional attacks. It takes an entire fleet with precise targeting just to take down one on the Quarian homeworld.

If Shepard doesn't managed to activate the Crucible (i.e. it is all a hallucination), then the reapers destroy all the fleets.

The Crucible must fire in order to defeat the reapers, and I don't see how Shepard activating it from afar (indoctrination theory if everything goes fine), or activating it via a conversation with the lead AI is actually any different.


Why do you think that the Cruicible is the only way to defeat the reapers, Soverign was taken down by "coventional means" okay it took the might of most the galactic fleet but they are not indestructible. For example Reapers are mostly machine, a gigantic EMP would disable them. We can generate these with current tech so it is plausible that with future tech we could generate a big enough pulse.(I thought of assumed this is what destroy did as an EMP would kill all electrical devices.

It is also well established that no one really knows what the cruicble actually does. For all we know when it is switched on a giant flag with the word bang comes out. However IT doesn't state that it is all an illusion just the final segment i.e. After being hit by Harbringer beam. IT doesn't automatically mean the reapers win, it means that the battle isn't over.

Sorry if this was already answered, (about 10pages behind)


Ehm I am pretty sure the Reapers have taken precautions against EMP attacks after their millions of years in this cycle. Someone probably tried it at some point...also if it was as easy as using an EMP against AI like say the Geth to shut them down I dont think it would have taken the Quarians long to exploit such a weakness considering they made the Geth.

A guess of mine would be that Ships and the like probably have some kind of Electromagnetic Shielding, possibly even incoporated in the same mechanisms that accumulate the electrical charge during FTL.

#41970
Gorkan86

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...


"Not received Shepard"

"Such a failure is not valid for Shepard"

What the hell do these two sentences even mean in context to what I said? Do you mean to say that Shepard is to strongwilled to be Indoctrinated?

Shepard is far stronger than an average human after his rebuilding. This is shown in Lair of the Shadow Broker when he goes hand to hand with a Yagh and in ME2 he is capable of using a Shotgun which in the describtion states that a human who fires it will break his arm from recoil. Put those two together and Shepard could probably have taken that kid over his shoulder and it woyuld have not even slowed him down.

And do you seriusly beleive that Shepard would make such a choice in that situation? It is not Shepard who says he cant rescure the kid, he tries to help the kid and had the kid come to him he would have protected him all the way to the Nomandy without a shadow of doubt.

Also in regards to the kid, fact is that noone but Shepard ever seem to notice the kid. Not Anderson, not the Soldiers near the shuttle (despite helping other people aboard) and he somehow runs through a locked door and survives the Reaper blowing up the house he is in. Oh and this is not even mnetioning that the house is not even near the one where we saw him for the first time.


Yes, Shepard strongvilled. And very much. He can not be indoctrinated. If this is not true and he can be indoctrinated, I personally apologize to write about my beliefs in this topic. We'll see with the release of DLC.

Andersen did not look in the vent pipe. He could not see the child. Shepard told him: "Hey Andersen, there is a child, help me get it out of there." Would you say that Shepard knew that it was a hallucination, and he alone had seen the child?
What is the difference how the child got into the ventilation? This does not affect what is not, except that it reinforces the hallucinatory origin due to the fact that the developers did not put cut scene as a child crawling on the ventilation. If there was such a scene would call it boring and irrelevant.

Here's a mini-theory. Millions of years, our galaxy is exhausted under the yoke of the reapers. Every 50K years they came from deep space and destroy all intelligent life. But it's time a hero who is able to break this cycle. He is the bone in the throat of the reapers. He is strong, he іs smart, he has the best forces of the galaxy, and it has a rock strength of will, which is too tough for the reapers. 

Modifié par Gorkan86, 23 avril 2012 - 09:04 .


#41971
Gorkan86

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spotlessvoid wrote...

But there are some things that Shepard can not fail?

How did you come to that conclusion? Seriously, what makes you assume that?


Scenario. More specifically the course of events.

#41972
spotlessvoid

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Like Raistlin Majare 1992 points out an EMP would probably do way more harm than good, and if the fleets are shielded against EMPs it would be pretty unbelievable the Reapers wouldn't already have protection too, or at the very least have copied it from this cycles organic life

#41973
spotlessvoid

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Gorkan86 wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

But there are some things that Shepard can not fail?

How did you come to that conclusion? Seriously, what makes you assume that?


Scenario. More specifically the course of events.


No offense, but that is about as vague as answer can get. More specifically, what about the course of which events?

#41974
Raistlin Majare 1992

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Gorkan86 wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...


"Not received Shepard"

"Such a failure is not valid for Shepard"

What the hell do these two sentences even mean in context to what I said? Do you mean to say that Shepard is to strongwilled to be Indoctrinated?

Shepard is far stronger than an average human after his rebuilding. This is shown in Lair of the Shadow Broker when he goes hand to hand with a Yagh and in ME2 he is capable of using a Shotgun which in the describtion states that a human who fires it will break his arm from recoil. Put those two together and Shepard could probably have taken that kid over his shoulder and it woyuld have not even slowed him down.

And do you seriusly beleive that Shepard would make such a choice in that situation? It is not Shepard who says he cant rescure the kid, he tries to help the kid and had the kid come to him he would have protected him all the way to the Nomandy without a shadow of doubt.

Also in regards to the kid, fact is that noone but Shepard ever seem to notice the kid. Not Anderson, not the Soldiers near the shuttle (despite helping other people aboard) and he somehow runs through a locked door and survives the Reaper blowing up the house he is in. Oh and this is not even mnetioning that the house is not even near the one where we saw him for the first time.


Yes, Shepard strongvilled. And very much. He can not be indoctrinated. If this is not true and he can be indoctrinated, I personally apologize to write about my beliefs in this topic. We'll see with the release of DLC.

Andersen did not look in the vent pipe. He could not see the child. Shepard told him: "Hey Andersen, there is a child, help me get it out of there." Would you say that Shepard knew that it was a hallucination, and he alone had seen the child?
What is the difference how the child got into the ventilation? This does not affect what is not, except that it reinforces the hallucinatory origin due to the fact that the developers did not put cut scene as a child crawling on the ventilation. If there was such a scene would call it boring and irrelevant.

Here's a mini-theory. Millions of years, our galaxy is exhausted under the yoke of the reapers. Every 50K years they came from deep space and destroy all intelligent life. But it's time a hero who is able to break this cycle. He is the bone in the throat of the reapers. He is strong, he іs smart, he has the best forces of the galaxy, and it has a rock strength of will, which is too tough for the reapers. 



But Shepard dident tell Anderson in fact Anderson shows no signs of having heard the child at all despite beeing only a few meters away.

Oh and as for your mini-theory I do not like it for one simple reason. A perfect hero is often a boring hero and that is the direction your theory takes it.

Luckily though Shepard is not perfect. He has faced defeat and loss, he has failed before. He is a hero who has survived where others would fail, but that does not mean he never fails.

And in regards to indoctrination we have seen great people like Saren (the number one Spectre) Matriarch Benezia (A spiritual leader of her people who went in with the intention of swaying Saren form his path) and TIM as well as countless others fall victim to Indoctrination, but the subtle and the fast kind. Noone affected outside of those in a hivemind have resisted.

What makes Shepard any different from these people? What makes him able to ignore the effect of such a deadly weapon when such mighty people fell?

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 23 avril 2012 - 09:14 .


#41975
Gorkan86

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spotlessvoid wrote...

No offense, but that is about as vague as answer can get. More specifically, what about the course of which events?


In short, Shepherd learned of the threat of the reapers. Almost no one believed him. It was in the first part. He prevented the invasion of the reapers. Just think of this one man. That's a feat. He won the battle but the war is not won yet. He knows that the impending threat of unbelievable proportions. Then the second part of the event. The destruction of the base of collectors - the best agents and executors of reapers. Firs Saren, then little army of collectors. Not much remains of reapers helpers.  Now the third part. Time for tough decisions and sacrifices. Millions of lives are at stake, but only one life in the galaxy which may be directed by Shepard. The stakes are high but for Shepard, nothing is impossible. This is the heart of the plot.

Modifié par Gorkan86, 23 avril 2012 - 09:17 .