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[Big Bad]

I think that if you could remove all the posts that consist of people arguing about who is and is not a troll, this thread would be about 10% shorter. Just sayin'.

[Simon_Says]

Big Bad wrote...

I think that if you could remove all the posts that consist of people arguing about who is and is not a troll, this thread would be about 10% shorter. Just sayin'.

Probably even shorter. Every few pages there's some argument where someone is quick to call the other side a troll. Oftentimes becoming trolls themselves in the process and just stuffing the thread with filler. IT has its own damn reaperesque cycle where "trolls" troll the theorists and theorists become introllinated and will still deny becoming trolls. I guess demotivationals are being harvested in the process or something.

If you're willing to apply troll logic then you can say it's good for the thread in the long run. Free bumps without the need for, y'know, actual, intellectual discussion, analysis and support. Never mind the nuisance and suffering of innocent viewers.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 24 avril 2012 - 01:27 .

[lex0r11]

Simon_Says wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

I think that if you could remove all the posts that consist of people arguing about who is and is not a troll, this thread would be about 10% shorter. Just sayin'.

Probably even shorter. Every few pages there's some argument where someone is quick to call the other side a
troll. Oftentimes becoming trolls themselves in the process and just stuffing the thread with filler. IT has its own damn reaperesque cycle where "trolls" troll the theorists and theorists become introllinated
and will still deny becoming trolls. I guess demotivationals are being harvested in the process or something.

If you're willing to apply troll logic then you can say it's good for the thread in the long run. Free bumps without the need for, y'know, actual, intellectual discussion, analysis and support.

Modifié par lex0r11, 24 avril 2012 - 01:27 .

[Uncle Jo]

EpyonX3 wrote...



But why make him look different? In the consensus mission, Shepard's memories are accesed without him even feeling it. Shepard didn't even know 100% that he was indoctrinated. Yes it was hinted but no confirmed. So why tip him off by making him look indoctrinated if they want him to join their side? Making him look normal would have helped them and made less work.

As for the bodies I see the similarities in the armor but I don't see the faces. Besides, those patterns are there before the beam hits and in ME2.

TIM looking different is just Shep's combination of how he remembers him (he already saw him) and his last picture of an indoctrinated Saren. It's not that illogical.
My God, I'm defending the IT now....

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Just had a thought.

In the geth consensus mission, Legion says that the video logs have masked Quarians because they match whatever is in Shepard's memory. I've read an argument that this is what the reapers are doing at the end. If this is a point for IT then I have the following question.

If everything around Shepard is coming from memory, why is TIM's face disfigured? Shepard has never seen TIM like this before the end.

What about his comment to Anderson not recognizing where he is on the Citadel? That would imply that there are a few things that are unfamiliar to him. If reapers can fabricate so many things in this dream, doesn't that suggest that they already own Shepard's mind and can make him see whatever they want?

Since TIM represents indoctrination, he would look different than the "untainted" parts of your psyche (Anderson).

I beleive they pretty much are making him see whatever they want with the starchild, they just build up his trust in what he sees with familiar settings.

Even the dead bodies are memories- Ashley and Kaiden Armor, with Jenkins face. 

But why make him look different? In the consensus mission, Shepard's memories are accesed without him even feeling it. Shepard didn't even know 100% that he was indoctrinated. Yes it was hinted but no confirmed. So why tip him off by making him look indoctrinated if they want him to join their side? Making him look normal would have helped them and made less work.

As for the bodies I see the similarities in the armor but I don't see the faces. Besides, those patterns are there before the beam hits and in ME2.

Saren, just the memory of Saren developing the circutry.

There is "something else" in his head that can construct some images, The Geth mission gives you a gun that you haven't seen before, you ARE seeing geometry that isn't seen elswhere. They are using his memories against him, even the Catalyst (Harbinger) himself to a painful degree.

[MaximizedAction]

HellishFiend wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

That and it was specifically stated that since Shepard had only ever seen Quarians in their suits, he ended up using the only convenient image he had available. That and there's also the out of game explanation that they didn't have the resources to show suitless Quarians.

In other words, Shepard has seen Husks, he has seen TIM. Therefore...

But wait! Shepard has never actually seen the Illusive Man in person! So shouldnt he have imagined him as a hologram projection? <_<

Not neccessarily. As some here pointed out, if Anderson and TIM are projections of Shep's mind, then this is at least like a dream for her. And as we know from nightmares, when have this dream of falling:
We never were in the position of falling, but probably only saw something like this in a movie, so on a TV or screen. But in our dreams, we don't watch a TV and feel like falling, we are falling!

Know what I mean?

And how TIM looks as someone who's indoctrinated heavily, Shep's mind might as well project it in anyway horrible as her mind wishes. Doesn't mean it's what TIM really does or would or has looked like.

[waldstr18]

@balance5050

if you want more stupid things i did, or tests i failed but nonetheless passed, i could go on, if you want. my life is mostly based on luck.

[balance5050]

Uncle Jo wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...



But why make him look different? In the consensus mission, Shepard's memories are accesed without him even feeling it. Shepard didn't even know 100% that he was indoctrinated. Yes it was hinted but no confirmed. So why tip him off by making him look indoctrinated if they want him to join their side? Making him look normal would have helped them and made less work.

As for the bodies I see the similarities in the armor but I don't see the faces. Besides, those patterns are there before the beam hits and in ME2.

TIM looking different is just Shep's combination of how he remembers him (he already saw him) and his last picture of an indoctrinated Saren. It's not that illogical.
My God, I'm defending the IT now....

That's what happens... even if you don't believe, some of the arguments are just too compelling.

[Macross]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Just had a thought.

In the geth consensus mission, Legion says that the video logs have masked Quarians because they match whatever is in Shepard's memory. I've read an argument that this is what the reapers are doing at the end. If this is a point for IT then I have the following question.

If everything around Shepard is coming from memory, why is TIM's face disfigured? Shepard has never seen TIM like this before the end.

What about his comment to Anderson not recognizing where he is on the Citadel? That would imply that there are a few things that are unfamiliar to him. If reapers can fabricate so many things in this dream, doesn't that suggest that they already own Shepard's mind and can make him see whatever they want?

Since TIM represents indoctrination, he would look different than the "untainted" parts of your psyche (Anderson).

I beleive they pretty much are making him see whatever they want with the starchild, they just build up his trust in what he sees with familiar settings.

Even the dead bodies are memories- Ashley and Kaiden Armor, with Jenkins face. 

But why make him look different? In the consensus mission, Shepard's memories are accesed without him even feeling it. Shepard didn't even know 100% that he was indoctrinated. Yes it was hinted but no confirmed. So why tip him off by making him look indoctrinated if they want him to join their side? Making him look normal would have helped them and made less work.

As for the bodies I see the similarities in the armor but I don't see the faces. Besides, those patterns are there before the beam hits and in ME2.

You have to remember though, there is some part of Shepards psyche still fighting against the indoctrination, thus those part would probbly still try to bring that struggle into persepective. Why is TIM the way he is is like asking why the reapers would allow Anderson to be there? if anderson represets Shepard uncontrolled side and the reapers are in full control than they wouldn't risk putting Anderson in the fray.

You can basically stick up TIM degradation to a part of Shepards mind protraying the struggle through tainted imagery.

[Uncle Jo]

balance5050 wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...



But why make him look different? In the consensus mission, Shepard's memories are accesed without him even feeling it. Shepard didn't even know 100% that he was indoctrinated. Yes it was hinted but no confirmed. So why tip him off by making him look indoctrinated if they want him to join their side? Making him look normal would have helped them and made less work.

As for the bodies I see the similarities in the armor but I don't see the faces. Besides, those patterns are there before the beam hits and in ME2.

TIM looking different is just Shep's combination of how he remembers him (he already saw him) and his last picture of an indoctrinated Saren. It's not that illogical.
My God, I'm defending the IT now....

That's what happens... even if you don't believe, some of the arguments are just too compelling.

I absolutely agree. The Citadel-Part of the IT is that what makes me think it is very plausible, and ause no one till now did bring up a good, logical counter-argument...

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 24 avril 2012 - 01:35 .

[Big Bad]

lex0r11 wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

I think that if you could remove all the posts that consist of people arguing about who is and is not a troll, this thread would be about 10% shorter. Just sayin'.

Probably even shorter. Every few pages there's some argument where someone is quick to call the other side a
troll. Oftentimes becoming trolls themselves in the process and just stuffing the thread with filler. IT has its own damn reaperesque cycle where "trolls" troll the theorists and theorists become introllinated
and will still deny becoming trolls. I guess demotivationals are being harvested in the process or something.

If you're willing to apply troll logic then you can say it's good for the thread in the long run. Free bumps without the need for, y'know, actual, intellectual discussion, analysis and support.

I seriously have no idea how you pump these out so fast.  You totally have a career in stand-up Powerpoint comedy! 

[Gormane01]

waldstr18 wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

if there is no new gameplay, just cutscenes, doesnt that proof that the ending is the ending and no hallucination or are you now saying that mass effect gets no ending just the indoctrination?

The information on "what" the DLC will be has shifted some in statements from Bioware employees. The initial statement was that these would be cinematics. In a matter of days it was suggested that additional gameplay would also potentially be a feature.

Regardless, until the product is out and in our hands, we won't have "proof". The top brass from the Bioware's ME3 Project openly gave us "proof" about the radical and varying endings to the game, even after it had gone gold, that turned out to be false.

Ahh Waldstr, you never fail to annoy me.

Read this; 
http://social.biowar.../1313#11127624   

Point proven, also, I might add, they never EVER stated that the EC would be exclusively cutscenes, therefore they never ruled out new gameplay.

Back Arian! *snaps horse whip* My troll! I caught it.

case and point. i was just asking, bam... im a troll again.

Don't take their annoyance personally, you can't go more than a few pages in here without someone trolling nastily that 'we're all stupid fro believing it' etc. etc. etc. It wears a little thin.

In regards to your query, it's still very inconclusive. The only thing that can 100% be confirmed is they initally made the game Indoct WAS GOING TO OCCUR (See Final Hours book app). The hints described throughout much of this thread indicate that it may still have occurred. Basically Bioware either meant to do IT or some varient and changed their mind and forgot to remove many of the clues.

Or IT theory is correct (or correctish)

I am still unable to make a choice which.

[lex0r11]

I used that one before in here, so not really a direct result of the post before it.

[Big Bad]

lex0r11 wrote...

I used that one before in here, so not really a direct result of the post before it.

Sure, sure.  You're just being modest. 

[HellishFiend]

MaximizedAction wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

That and it was specifically stated that since Shepard had only ever seen Quarians in their suits, he ended up using the only convenient image he had available. That and there's also the out of game explanation that they didn't have the resources to show suitless Quarians.

In other words, Shepard has seen Husks, he has seen TIM. Therefore...

But wait! Shepard has never actually seen the Illusive Man in person! So shouldnt he have imagined him as a hologram projection? <_<

Not neccessarily. As some here pointed out, if Anderson and TIM are projections of Shep's mind, then this is at least like a dream for her. And as we know from nightmares, when have this dream of falling:
We never were in the position of falling, but probably only saw something like this in a movie, so on a TV or screen. But in our dreams, we don't watch a TV and feel like falling, we are falling!

Know what I mean?

And how TIM looks as someone who's indoctrinated heavily, Shep's mind might as well project it in anyway horrible as her mind wishes. Doesn't mean it's what TIM really does or would or has looked like.

I was joking, hence the But wait! and the <_<

[Arian Dynas]

@ Gormane I am annoyed at him (breaking my previous pacifism btw) because he IS one of the regulars who comes in, ****es at us and leaves. THAT is why I responded. I'm sick of him.

[Auralius Carolus]

Something I had overlooked before. Like many peices of our "evidence" it is subjective, but interesting.

www.youtube.com/watch

You'll note the same, although faint, sound effects from the dreams which are later interupted by Anderson bringing back attention to the real world. Also, there is no visual evidence that Shepard hit his head- his neck, if anything, would have been strained. Continuing, given the synchronization of his movements, it hints at more of a confused state than simply being in pain.

Of course, this could simply be a reaction to nearly losing conciousness. For me, (I was actually just looking over the scene again for the heck of it), it was more of a "huh, that's odd" moment.

Narratively speaking, such little tidbits are often used and then brought up again toward the end of the story to show just how subtle the author(s) were at developing a plot device.

[balance5050]

Arian Dynas wrote...

@ Gormane I am annoyed at him (breaking my previous pacifism btw) because he IS one of the regulars who comes in, ****es at us and leaves. THAT is why I responded. I'm sick of him.

It's like if some guy just walked in and was like "I know everyone accuses me of being racist, but Asians suck at driving!"

[waldstr18]

@arian

sorry, that i cant stay here all day. even though you might not believe it, but i have other things to do.

if you would just answer my questions, without calling me names, the whole thing would be a lot less annoying for you. i leave all the same, but i wouldnt have to backlash at the troll hunters. and usually i just ask questions, which are answered with a short yes or no, or like this time a "there have been other sources who tell different things". if that annoyes you, maybe you start your own private forum where reading the 1696 pages is mandatory before posting.

[lex0r11]

Big Bad wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

I used that one before in here, so not really a direct result of the post before it.

Sure, sure.  You're just being modest. 

Please... i only fulfill my obligations. Honour-bound to motivate by Emperor_Ike.

Also, there is a latin phrase i learned while in the military: in omnia paratus.
It means "in all things prepared".

Can't help it. Lulz.

[Arian Dynas]

waldstr18 wrote...

@arian

sorry, that i cant stay here all day. even though you might not believe it, but i have other things to do.

if you would just answer my questions, without calling me names, the whole thing would be a lot less annoying for you. i leave all the same, but i wouldnt have to backlash at the troll hunters. and usually i just ask questions, which are answered with a short yes or no, or like this time a "there have been other sources who tell different things". if that annoyes you, maybe you start your own private forum where reading the 1696 pages is mandatory before posting.

...

...

My god.

http://www.youtube.c...I2CRQFo&t=5m34s

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 24 avril 2012 - 01:52 .

[Gormane01]

Arian Dynas wrote...

@ Gormane I am annoyed at him (breaking my previous pacifism btw) because he IS one of the regulars who comes in, ****es at us and leaves. THAT is why I responded. I'm sick of him.

ahh fair enough. I don't notice who posts most things, I just read em (and I can't be mean to people it's not in my nature)

[lex0r11]

Arian Dynas wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

@arian

sorry, that i cant stay here all day. even though you might not believe it, but i have other things to do.

if you would just answer my questions, without calling me names, the whole thing would be a lot less annoying for you. i leave all the same, but i wouldnt have to backlash at the troll hunters. and usually i just ask questions, which are answered with a short yes or no, or like this time a "there have been other sources who tell different things". if that annoyes you, maybe you start your own private forum where reading the 1696 pages is mandatory before posting.

...

...

My god.

Modifié par lex0r11, 24 avril 2012 - 01:53 .

[Lokanaiya]

We really should make a FAQ with short answers to questions and common "arguments" against the IT and IT evidence. Nothing really long, trolls probablt won't go through all the trouble to read long posts, just like 1 or 2 lines for each answer. If someone comes in and asks a common question or points out something like the Thessia Prothean VI we can just point them to the FAQ and not reply to any other posts they make where they ask a question that has been answered already in the FAQ.

[Arian Dynas]

lex0r11 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

@arian

sorry, that i cant stay here all day. even though you might not believe it, but i have other things to do.

if you would just answer my questions, without calling me names, the whole thing would be a lot less annoying for you. i leave all the same, but i wouldnt have to backlash at the troll hunters. and usually i just ask questions, which are answered with a short yes or no, or like this time a "there have been other sources who tell different things". if that annoyes you, maybe you start your own private forum where reading the 1696 pages is mandatory before posting.

...

...

My god.

No worries man, it doesn't bother me. I just now know from this point on, it's not even worth the effort to type out the word "the" in response to him.

One simply cannot cure that amount of stupid.