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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#42951
SS2Dante

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pistolols wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

pistolols wrote...

Does shep actually have a "wound" where he has his left hand after anderson dies? I just finished this last night, i didn't see any wound there. I meant to take a screenshot so i could examine it further later but i forgot.

His hand was bloodly, but weren't his entire arms and hands bloody ever since being hit by harbinger's beam?

My take on the shep hand-where-anderson-was-shot thing was that this was confusion from the indoctrination 'attempt' on both anderson and shep by illusive man. Shepard is checking himself because he's confused about who was even just shot, perhaps. Similar to the shared memory confusion the 2 guys on derelict reaper had.


Not sure. Also if you look, yes there is some blood on Sheps arms but it's mostly just dirt.



Some explain this as being caused by the graphical jump during the cutscence.

Also, noone has yet given me any satisfying explantation as to why the whispers from the dreams happen during this scene. If they occur because Shep is being indoctrinated by TIm then this implies that the whispers in the dreams are also signs of indoctrination.

(this is when the whispers start. The very moment Anderson is paralysed)

Listen to the noise made when you see TIM for the first time. it's the same DUM DUM as the crucible decision music.


Looks like his arms vary in how bloody/dirty they are in each scene.  After he beams up into the citadel his arms and hand look pretty bloody as he's getting up off the ground, but then they're cleaner looking during conversation with illusive man.  But they are certainly the most bloodly looking when he is sitting down there and looks at his hand.  Hard to know what to make of it all.

That is interesting about the whispers, i didnt realize they were the same.  But either way "hearing voices" is a known key step in indoctrination so without a doubt there is indoctrination going on during the citadel scene.   But I think it's actually happening and is not a hallucination.

Another thing, has anyone posed the question if Anderson is really born in London at all?  or does he just keep saying that because it's the confused/shared memory of the actual english guy (i don't recall his name) who is there working with anderson?  Implying of course a similarity to the 2 guys in the video on derelict reaper.  Either way it is very odd scene when he says he's born in London on the shuttle then there is a pause and Anderson's eyes stare to the side at shepard in a strange manner.


I do agree about indoctrination happening in the TIM scene, literal or not (you know some people try to argue it's not an indoctrination attempt?). And I also agree about the whispers definitely (in that scene) being a sign of indoctrination. What interests me is more that it's the same whispers in the dream, when they really shouldn't be. If the dream is PTSD then why the indoctrination whispers? That doesn't make any sense. 

And fair enough about the blood. It's the framing of the scene that most interested me. The timing is odd. Shepard looks down at the wound, surprised, mere moment's after Anderson died? Why not show the wound when he first wakes up? Or when Hackett calls (that way we can see Shep is too wounded to get to the console)? It reminds me too much of the sort of stuff they did in FIght Club, where one (imaginary) character would walk into a room half a second after any witnesses had left. The sharpness of the appearance was a clue. 

But skepticism, fair enough :)

#42952
Dnayew

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Dwailing wrote...

Dnayew wrote...

I was kind of late to the party of beating ME3, but I am totally on board with the Indoctrination Theory. I think it is very plausible.

Think about it. How awesome would it be if your final battle is the one that we got - a battle of WILL against Harbinger.

After finishing ME2 I was worried about how we would do a boss battle with Harbinger, because Shep vs. 20 Mile FTW Reaper is not a winnable battle. However, if the battle with Harbinger is this innovative "battle within Shepard's mind," that is incredible. As much as I love the Marauder Shields meme, what if the whole end sequence is your final boss battle?

This possibility is an AMAZING conclusion to one of the greatest sci-fi stories ever told.


Well, just because we get a battle of wills against Harbinger, doesn't mean we don't get a regular boss fight, too.  What I really want to see is something like the Reaper battle of Rannoch, but with the ENTIRE SWORD FLEET RAINING FIRE ON HARBINGER!!!!!!  Wouldn't that be awesome?



Now that you mention it.... that would be pretty awesome. ;)

#42953
SS2Dante

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Dwailing wrote...

Dnayew wrote...

I was kind of late to the party of beating ME3, but I am totally on board with the Indoctrination Theory. I think it is very plausible.

Think about it. How awesome would it be if your final battle is the one that we got - a battle of WILL against Harbinger.

After finishing ME2 I was worried about how we would do a boss battle with Harbinger, because Shep vs. 20 Mile FTW Reaper is not a winnable battle. However, if the battle with Harbinger is this innovative "battle within Shepard's mind," that is incredible. As much as I love the Marauder Shields meme, what if the whole end sequence is your final boss battle?

This possibility is an AMAZING conclusion to one of the greatest sci-fi stories ever told.


Well, just because we get a battle of wills against Harbinger, doesn't mean we don't get a regular boss fight, too.  What I really want to see is something like the Reaper battle of Rannoch, but with the ENTIRE SWORD FLEET RAINING FIRE ON HARBINGER!!!!!!  Wouldn't that be awesome?


We might, but I agree with Dnayew in that even if this was the last boss it was one HELL of an end.

#42954
bFootball

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I don't know if someone else has noticed this, but I've just started my third play through and noticed Shepard's wound in the final scene is in the same place Anderson touches Shepard in opening cut scene ("soft around the edges"). Maybe Shepard is subconsciously remembering it.

Modifié par bFootball, 24 avril 2012 - 04:00 .


#42955
Uncle Jo

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SS2Dante wrote...



Just don't like the concept :P But to discuss we'd get into details in the meaning and I can't be bothered, so MOVING ON :P

Well, I don't know about your vocal skills, but from your typing I would have said you were a native speaker.

Btw I've replayed the end earlier and have commentend about it. Don't know if you read it, so just in case, I post it here again...

"There are three keepers, you can't touch the first one (the one who looks at you when you land), but you can bump on the second one (I've tried) and walk through the last one. I can't say it's a decisive proof, but it's still troubling...

I've also heard the drums of the trial (if we consider it as second meaning of the crucible. But don't forget one thing : in other languages the word "crucible doesn't have this second definition, at least not "trial". So the other players may be disadvantaged), just as TIM appears. I've never noticed it before. So it could go to the IT.

But it could also mean that's the first and only indoctrination attempt in the game (I'm trying to be impartial).


Anderson moves like Shepard
( when the last one's gonna shoot at him). Well... he's indeed rising his hand but  it could be interpretated as instinctive self-defense reflex... It's also not very conclusive.

Anyways, the IT seems to be more and more plausible... That's all I can say."

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 24 avril 2012 - 04:02 .


#42956
Dwailing

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bFootball wrote...

I don't know if someone else has noticed this, but I've just started my third play through and noticed Shepard's wound in the final scene is in the same place Anderson touches Shepard in opening cut scene ("soft around the edges"). Maybe Shepard is subconsciously remembering it.


Huh, weird.

#42957
SubAstris

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bFootball wrote...

I don't know if someone else has noticed this, but I've just started my third play through and noticed Shepard's wound in the final scene is in the same place Anderson touches Shepard in opening cut scene ("soft around the edges"). Maybe Shepard is subconsciously remembering it.


If Shepard had touched something unique, such as his back, knee or foot both times then you might have something, but that just seems to be twisting the evidence for the theory. There is little evidence for anything here

#42958
MadRabbit999

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SS2Dante wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Dnayew wrote...

I was kind of late to the party of beating ME3, but I am totally on board with the Indoctrination Theory. I think it is very plausible.

Think about it. How awesome would it be if your final battle is the one that we got - a battle of WILL against Harbinger.

After finishing ME2 I was worried about how we would do a boss battle with Harbinger, because Shep vs. 20 Mile FTW Reaper is not a winnable battle. However, if the battle with Harbinger is this innovative "battle within Shepard's mind," that is incredible. As much as I love the Marauder Shields meme, what if the whole end sequence is your final boss battle?

This possibility is an AMAZING conclusion to one of the greatest sci-fi stories ever told.


Well, just because we get a battle of wills against Harbinger, doesn't mean we don't get a regular boss fight, too.  What I really want to see is something like the Reaper battle of Rannoch, but with the ENTIRE SWORD FLEET RAINING FIRE ON HARBINGER!!!!!!  Wouldn't that be awesome?


We might, but I agree with Dnayew in that even if this was the last boss it was one HELL of an end.


Wait a sec.. in this video, TIM shoots Anderson, then Shepards shoots TIM. If Anderson shot in the stomach is reflected on Shepard ,then why when Anderson is shot in the back is not reflected by him?



#42959
Sero303

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Would you be happy with "clarity" about the space magic ending?

#42960
Dnayew

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bFootball wrote...

I don't know if someone else has noticed this, but I've just started my third play through and noticed Shepard's wound in the final scene is in the same place Anderson touches Shepard in opening cut scene ("soft around the edges"). Maybe Shepard is subconsciously remembering it.



I just noticed that to when playing through w/ my FemShep character (yes, sadly I have a FemShep character...lol).

Also, I noticed that when you're talking to the little boy  **cough** Harbinger **cough **, you don't just hear a sound similar to the growling noise described in the books, you hear the EXACT SAME SOUND you hear when the Illusive Man overcomes Indoctrination right before he takes his own life.

This was staggering proof to me that the Indoctrination Theory holds weight.

#42961
Sero303

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Dnayew wrote...

bFootball wrote...

I don't know if someone else has noticed this, but I've just started my third play through and noticed Shepard's wound in the final scene is in the same place Anderson touches Shepard in opening cut scene ("soft around the edges"). Maybe Shepard is subconsciously remembering it.



I just noticed that to when playing through w/ my FemShep character (yes, sadly I have a FemShep character...lol).

Also, I noticed that when you're talking to the little boy  **cough** Harbinger **cough **, you don't just hear a sound similar to the growling noise described in the books, you hear the EXACT SAME SOUND you hear when the Illusive Man overcomes Indoctrination right before he takes his own life.

This was staggering proof to me that the Indoctrination Theory holds weight.


I think the indoctrination theory fits like that missing puzzle piece that gets lost. But apparently the Indoc. Theory has lost some popularity lately. I've seen a lot of people ripping the IT a new one...

#42962
SubAstris

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Dnayew wrote...

bFootball wrote...

I don't know if someone else has noticed this, but I've just started my third play through and noticed Shepard's wound in the final scene is in the same place Anderson touches Shepard in opening cut scene ("soft around the edges"). Maybe Shepard is subconsciously remembering it.



I just noticed that to when playing through w/ my FemShep character (yes, sadly I have a FemShep character...lol).

Also, I noticed that when you're talking to the little boy  **cough** Harbinger **cough **, you don't just hear a sound similar to the growling noise described in the books, you hear the EXACT SAME SOUND you hear when the Illusive Man overcomes Indoctrination right before he takes his own life.

This was staggering proof to me that the Indoctrination Theory holds weight.



Proof of this?

#42963
Vahilor

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*peeks in* oh no not again...I'll be back later guys

#42964
bFootball

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I think a lot of us aren't believers in the IT or some variant of it. We just want it to be true because it would actually make some sense.

#42965
MadRabbit999

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When someone has a second to defend IT please answer this one before it goes lost:

"In this video, TIM shoots Anderson, then Shepards shoots TIM. If Anderson shot in the stomach is reflected on Shepard ,then why when Anderson is shot in the back is not reflected on Shepard?

"

Makes the whole "Shepard is shooting himself" like BS to me.

#42966
SubAstris

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Vahilor wrote...

*peeks in* oh no not again...I'll be back later guys


Why should unsupported assertions be thought of as "evidence"?

#42967
SS2Dante

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Uncle Jo wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...



Just don't like the concept :P But to discuss we'd get into details in the meaning and I can't be bothered, so MOVING ON :P

Well, I don't know about your vocal skills, but from your typing I would have said you were a native speaker.

Btw I've replayed the end earlier and have commentend about it. Don't know if you read it, so just in case, I post it here again...

"There are three keepers, you can't touch the first one (the one who looks at you when you land), but you can bump on the second one (I've tried) and walk through the last one. I can't say it's a decisive proof, but it's still troubling...

I've also heard the drums of the trial (if we consider it as second meaning of the crucible. But don't forget one thing : in other languages the word "crucible doesn't have this second definition, at least not "trial". So the other players may be disadvantaged), just as TIM appears. I've never noticed it before. So it could go to the IT.

But it could also mean that's the first and only indoctrination attempt in the game (I'm trying to be impartial).


Anderson moves like Shepard
( when the last one's gonna shoot at him). Well... he's indeed rising his hand but  it could be interpretated as instinctive self-defense reflex... It's also not very conclusive.

Anyways, the IT seems to be more and more plausible... That's all I can say."




I did not see that (the thread seemed to move very quickly while I was asleep so for once I haven't read through it all, a lot of it seemed like smalltalk).

Ok, impartiality, cool. And necessary when discussing this :)

Yeah, the keeper thing really bugged me when I found out, because people are claiming it as a glitch. Now, the second keeper? Passing a little bit through it's legs, that could be a glitch or clipping issues, fine. But the one you can walk through...considering the amount of testing in games, that being a mistake is damn near impossible. Anyone testing that room for five minutes would have spotted that. Something as big and obvious and easily correctable as that is there because they want it there.

I take it this means it's called the Crucible in every language then?

I'm confused about your explanation for the drum beat though? If it signals the only attempted indoctrination then we have to assume it's thematically linked to indoctrination, but then why do we hear it in the Crucible, which, taken literally, is not thematically linked to indoctrination in any way? (same reasoning as the dream whispers in this scene. It marks a clear link to indoctrination, but if that's the case why are they in your dreams?)

Not specifically in response to anything you said, but one of the things that annoys/amuses me about this situation is that IF IT is right then all the tiny little things we find are very likely deliberate, as well as probably lot's of other subtle things we don't find. But, since we don't know if it is, claiming them as evidence really isn't allowed or wise, and of course if IT is wrong then we've managed to string together a bunch of unrelated stuff VERY well :P

You and Epyon can moderate all the enthusiasm here a bit :P

#42968
Uncle Jo

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Dwailing wrote...


To me, it seems like there is no way that Bioware could have messed up this badly unless they had something else in mind.  Is IT that something else?  Well, it does seem as if there is a lot of evidence in favor of IT, while those that oppose IT and prefer a literal interpretation of the endings usually aren't able to come up with much evidence opposing IT beyond, "You're wrong because I say so," or, my personal favorite, "Bioware has horrible writers despite their track record before now."  And when the opposition (May I call them that?  I don't want to sound too judgmental.) DOES offers points against IT, we almost always (or possibly ALWAYS period) have an extremely reasonable counter argument.  So yes, I do believe that this was BW's intention from the beginning, although I know there are others who do not.  I have nothing against those people.  Anyway, now that I'm done rambling, I'm just glad we've been able to help you.  


This was my thought too. But there are still ToR and DA2 and I don't forget the "new commander on board" (you know who I mean). I'm secrely hoping that I'm wrong and that the EC will confirm it... Till then, i'll stay a little bit sceptical...

#42969
SS2Dante

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bFootball wrote...

I think a lot of us aren't believers in the IT or some variant of it. We just want it to be true because it would actually make some sense.


Strongly disagree. Wanting something to be true has zero bearing on it's truth value and should NEVER be used as an argument.

#42970
Vahilor

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SubAstris wrote...

Vahilor wrote...

*peeks in* oh no not again...I'll be back later guys


Why should unsupported assertions be thought of as "evidence"?


I'm pro IT and didn't refer to you and it starts to get annoying to explain some stuff a 100 times to some people who come with the most blurry evidences against IT.

Modifié par Vahilor, 24 avril 2012 - 04:24 .


#42971
n00bsauce2010

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SubAstris wrote...

bFootball wrote...

I don't know if someone else has noticed this, but I've just started my third play through and noticed Shepard's wound in the final scene is in the same place Anderson touches Shepard in opening cut scene ("soft around the edges"). Maybe Shepard is subconsciously remembering it.


If Shepard had touched something unique, such as his back, knee or foot both times then you might have something, but that just seems to be twisting the evidence for the theory. There is little evidence for anything here


Cool. Then why are you here if you're not making any contributive argument?

#42972
SS2Dante

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MadRabbit999 wrote...

When someone has a second to defend IT please answer this one before it goes lost:

"In this video, TIM shoots Anderson, then Shepards shoots TIM. If Anderson shot in the stomach is reflected on Shepard ,then why when Anderson is shot in the back is not reflected on Shepard?

"

Makes the whole "Shepard is shooting himself" like BS to me.


Two reasons, one practical and one thematic. The thematic takes precedence obviously.

Thematically - in this ending the indoctrinated part of Shepard shot Anderson, not "Shepard".

Practically - bececause then Shepard would be dead.

#42973
SubAstris

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n00bsauce2010 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

bFootball wrote...

I don't know if someone else has noticed this, but I've just started my third play through and noticed Shepard's wound in the final scene is in the same place Anderson touches Shepard in opening cut scene ("soft around the edges"). Maybe Shepard is subconsciously remembering it.


If Shepard had touched something unique, such as his back, knee or foot both times then you might have something, but that just seems to be twisting the evidence for the theory. There is little evidence for anything here


Cool. Then why are you here if you're not making any contributive argument?



Felt I needed to explain why the evidence is far from adequate, didn't realise this was only for pro-ITers and not a forum for free discussion

#42974
balance5050

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MadRabbit999 wrote...

When someone has a second to defend IT please answer this one before it goes lost:

"In this video, TIM shoots Anderson, then Shepards shoots TIM. If Anderson shot in the stomach is reflected on Shepard ,then why when Anderson is shot in the back is not reflected on Shepard?

"

Makes the whole "Shepard is shooting himself" like BS to me.


Because Shepard pulled the trigger, Everything else is part of Sheps imagination so it would only be symbolic.

The wound only shows up on shep because it was shep that pulled the trigger.

#42975
SS2Dante

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Vahilor wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Vahilor wrote...

*peeks in* oh no not again...I'll be back later guys


Why should unsupported assertions be thought of as "evidence"?


I'm pro IT and didn't refer to you and it starts to get annoying to explain some stuff a 100 times to some people who come with the most blurry evidences against IT.


Calm, people. The thread was just starting to stablise.