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[Rksmithers]

you know what bugs me, why is anderson virtually untouched when up in the conduit?

i mean shepard is damn near in rags, and looks like he was beaten to an inch of his life, yet anderson doesnt have a scratch on him, save a slight bruise........

[Skillz1986]

@byne
aethyta is implied to be alive. the asari in purgatory..the one you have to fimd the linrary of asha for?
She mentions that mtriarch aethyta can expect new huntresses to train soon. or something like this

[Rksmithers]

"edit"

Modifié par Rksmithers, 24 avril 2012 - 06:42 .

[Simon_Says]

byne wrote...

Also, they should have let us brought Kelly back on board. That way Traynor could have another hot redhead to lust over, since FemShep is taken.

Never mind she really, really doesn't want to come aboard.

Speaking of which. Shepard died. By atmospheric entry. How the hell does Shep not suffer some sort of psychological trauma from that?

Modifié par Simon_Says, 24 avril 2012 - 06:45 .

[SS2Dante]

Dwailing wrote...

byne wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

byne wrote...

I read it in FemShep's voice, from the convo with Liara's father

Note to self, might need to take Renegade interrupt next time. 

Speaking of Aethyta, I wonder what happened to her after the Cerberus coup. Did she get killed? You never see her again.

They should let you recruit people to come on your ship, sort of like how you can get Gabby and Ken back, and how you can choose between Chakwas and Michel.

The Normandy could use someone to tend its bar.

Also, they should have let us brought Kelly back on board. That way Traynor could have another hot redhead to lust over, since FemShep is taken.

Oh dang, now I have THAT to think about.  Thanks for preventing me from getting any sleep tonight. 

Edit: Refering to the last part.

Add in the Consort and we have a party

Actually, whatever did happen to her? Last I heard she was being accused of selling secrets or something :S

Modifié par SS2Dante, 24 avril 2012 - 06:44 .

[byne]

Rksmithers wrote...

you know what bugs me, why is anderson virtually untouched when up in the conduit?

i mean shepard is damn near in rags, and looks like he was beaten to an inch of his life, yet anderson doesnt have a scratch on him, save a slight bruise........

On top of that, Shepard was wearing armor, Anderson wasnt, but he still came out better than she did somehow.

[MaximizedAction]

Rksmithers wrote...

you know what bugs me, why is anderson virtually untouched when up in the conduit?

i
mean shepard is damn near in rags, and looks like he was beaten to an
inch of his life, yet anderson doesnt have a scratch on him, save a
slight bruise........

Yep, first time I noticed that something about the ending didn't add up, not that it's a f*cked up ending, but that there's more to it than meets the eye.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 24 avril 2012 - 06:47 .

[byne]

SS2Dante wrote...


Add in the Consort and we have a party

Actually, whatever did happen to her? Last I heard she was being accused of selling secrets or something :S

Well, thats a glitch in ME2. You're only supposed to hear that news report if you didnt do the quest with the elcor in ME1. If you did the quest the news says she's expected to predict which race will be the next to join the council after humanity very soon. So she's presumably still in good standing if you did that quest.

Simon_Says wrote...

byne wrote...

Also, they
should have let us brought Kelly back on board. That way Traynor could
have another hot redhead to lust over, since FemShep is taken.

Never mind she really, really doesn't want to come aboard.

Are you doubting Shep's persuasive abilities?

You think Kelly would say no if Shep mentioned she'd get to spend all day working next to a beautiful woman with a sexy british accent? Hell no she wouldnt.

Modifié par byne, 24 avril 2012 - 06:49 .

[arc_gabriel_]

Rksmithers wrote...

you know what bugs me, why is anderson virtually untouched when up in the conduit?

i mean shepard is damn near in rags, and looks like he was beaten to an inch of his life, yet anderson doesnt have a scratch on him, save a slight bruise........

Honestly I was shocked. 'Hey Anderson you look like you dashed all the way here and didn't get a damn scratch..why's that?' <_<

[Rksmithers]

byne wrote...

Rksmithers wrote...

you know what bugs me, why is anderson virtually untouched when up in the conduit?

i mean shepard is damn near in rags, and looks like he was beaten to an inch of his life, yet anderson doesnt have a scratch on him, save a slight bruise........

On top of that, Shepard was wearing armor, Anderson wasnt, but he still came out better than she did somehow.

Precisely...

[Earthborn_Shepard]

I just rewatched the "after-dream-sequence" from the beginning of ME1 and it's just eerie how well the theory that everything was just a beacon-induced dream fits to Shep's comments.

Of course I don't believe that, but it's a nice touch.

[Rksmithers]

just in case we get another anti IT who feels theyre the beez kneez, im reposting this........



Alright. I’ve been toying with the idea of the Indoctrination theory for the ending of Mass Effect 3 that has been floating around the internet. And I have discussed many points with my housemate, who has also studied literature extensively. She knows how invested I am in the story, and has given me a seed of hope that has blossomed into a razor-sharp flower of abject disbelief. She has also been researching this purely to ease my troubled mind, because living with me when I am in the throes of anguish or the grips of rage is pure hell.
And I can safely say that this is either the most dick move that Bioware could have pulled, or pure. ****ing. Genius.
So, yes. I have been won over to the indoctrination theory, and I’ll share with you some of the reasons why.
A few things of note…


First are several hints dropped through the game that indicate that something is not quite right. Several people have mentioned them, and I believe them. Here are the things from the end game that I noticed from the ending scene on a second playthrough, combined with some of the things I have heard.
Why is the means to end the game (destroy, control, synthesis) built into the Citadel, a device that was created by the Reapers to trap the organic civilisations in each cycle?
If you’re standing at the point where the Citadel and the Crucible meet, why is Earth above your head, looming like a brilliant, cosmic reminder of what’s at stake, when Earth is really beneath you? The Citadel is pointed away from Earth.
Why does the ‘creator’ of the Reapers simply allow you to choose the fate of their ‘solution’, which also defies all logic, when this is a creature of pure logic?



How does Hackett know that you’re on the Citadel? As far as everyone knows, you are dead, slain by Harbinger.


How did Anderson get to the room before you, when there was only one visible entrance, and he was not ahead of you? He even admits to getting to the Citadel after you. Moreover, how did he know you were in the Citadel?


How did the ‘creator’ know to appear as the child? Even if you’d told someone about the boy, you never told them what he looked like. How old he was. What he was wearing. How he sounded.
These may seem like design oversights, but I very sincerely doubt it. It’s a lot to get wrong in a final scene, especially for what is arguably one of the most notable and reputable game series in history.
How about this?
As quoted from the ‘indoctrination’ codex in Mass Effect 1,
“Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes they have feelings of being watched ‘watched’ and hallucinations of ‘ghostly’ presences. Ultimately the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim’s body to amplify its signals, manifesting as ‘alien’ voices in the mind.”
The first thing this brings to mind is the obligatory dream sequence we are forced to experience, without any chance to skip or bypass. During this time, we chase the spectral image of the boy we watched die on Earth, fleeing from some unknown terror. When we finally reach the boy, the world is shattered by the roar of Reapers - perhaps a memory of a traumatized Shepard, or perhaps a sound of frustration that the indoctrination process is not complete - and the child burns. The second and third sequence are accompanied by shadowy figures, and the whispers of the fallen, the people we have lost. When we finally catch up to the boy in the third sequence, the boy is embraced by Commander Shepard, and both burn. But neither scream. Neither struggle. Neither are afraid. Both just stare at Commander Shepard. And before anyone objects, a face’s expression isn’t just what it is in a video game. It is a conscious decision of what it is not. If you embrace the child, you burn.
Also, there is a moment where James Vega wonders, when Commander Shepard is standing near him, where a buzzing sound is coming from…


Endgame wtfs
How about the very final decisions you have to make? We have been trained to observe the ‘blue’ option as being paragon, good and virtuous, whereas red is ruthless and practical. Whilst this might not seem like a big deal, do you wonder why each side is coloured the way it is? Why is the Illusive Man’s option blue, when we always rejected his claims, and Anderson, who we have always supported, is suddenly red when he represents destroy?
Why does Shepard simply accept the fact that ‘the Illusive Man was right’? And why does he or she believe that they can control the Reapers when the Illusive Man couldn’t?
And why does the god child make sure to stress that in destroying the Reapers, Shepard destroys all technology upon which the galaxy relies, all synthetics, including the geth, and his or herself, too. And that Shepard does not ‘need hope’, but should simply accept the solutions that the creator presents.
And, I beg of you, go back and replay that final scene we all hate. With the choice we must make. Walk right to the middle of the walkway between the three choices and, several times, begin to walk in each direction.
Listen to the music change.
The ‘control’ option is sinister, with a quiet humming dissidence. So is the synthesis. And the ‘destroy’ option rings brightly, a pleasant sound of uplifting hope and then fades away. It’s barely noticeable, broken by the jarring drumming sound, and it is only right at the start. But it’s there.
And that, my friends, is not by accident.
What about the synthesis option, you ask?
I have one word.
Saren.


Allow me to reiterate something Saren says during his speech on Virmire.
“The Reapers are too powerful. The only hope of survival is to join with them. I am forming an alliance between us and the Reapers, between organics and machines.”
As we all know, Saren was indoctrinated. He was completely under the thrall of Sovereign. But the important part was he had no idea. He believed that what he was doing really was the only way to save the organics of the galaxy. He was truly trying to save everyone, and do his duty as a Spectre, to fulfil his vows. But because of his indoctrination, Sovereign steered him down a different path.
With the geth as his allies.
The geth, who are likely the main reason that people don’t chose the ‘destroy’ option.



The geth
The wrench in the cogs. The geth have defied what everyone has thought of synthetics; they never attack the quarians. They never instigate wars. They are your allies. Legion was a friend, in fact, and it scoured the galaxy searching for you. It gave its life to give the geth sentience, making the sentience of the race all the more important due to your loss.
By the way, it still never tells you why it has N7 armour adhered to its body. Nor why it was searching for you. Not really.
The geth are a sympathetic race. It is hard to hate them. You can destroy them, but they are specifically designed – by Bioware – to be a figure of sympathy and understanding. They just want to find their own way. Be their own people. Victims.
And the Catalyst says, quite pointedly, that choosing the destroy option will kill the geth.
And Shepard.




So that makes me wonder. In the ‘survival’ outcome of choosing ‘destroy’… why does Shepard take a breath?
Speaking of that breath
A lot of people have already mentioned this, but I’ll say it for the sake of this; examine the rubble around Shepard during that breath. It is rock. Concrete. Stone. And I don’t know about you, but I didn’t see a single slab on the Citadel. It is all metal. Shining metal.
So where is it that you are taking your breath?
Perhaps London?
Perhaps you never left?
Why indoctrinate Shepard and not simply kill him/her?
After all, it failed for Saren, right?


But Saren’s mistake was standing against the Council races, and creating an enemy of himself. People fought him, resisted him. Eventually, Shepard defeated him.
So perhaps the Reapers tried a new tact. Miranda says it herself. Shepard’s an icon. People will fall in behind the Commander and follow him or her to death. Which they did in the closing of ME3, flying their vast fleets into the mouth of hell to fight and get Earth back.
In doing so, Shepard did the one thing Saren failed to do; deliver the galaxy right to the Reapers. By being indoctrinated, Shepard has led everyone to their doom.
In conclusion
I think I raged about the fact that Bioware gave us a crappy ending without actually thinking about why Bioware gave us a crappy ending. People are saying that Bioware has a right to end their franchise as they choose. Which is true. But whywould Bioware choose to end it this way? Why would they allow billions of dollars, years of development, and a million plus fans go down the drain for an ending like this?
The bottom line is, they wouldn’t.
How many trailers were released to make us want to destroy the Reapers? How many times did you sit back and think ‘6th/8th/9th of March, I’m going to killthem’? It was always Shepard’s doctrine; we will find a way. We will destroy you.


Never was an option to control accepted. You rejected that from the moment the Illusive Man mentioned it. Never was the option of synthesis accepted. You rejected that in Mass Effect 1 with Saren. So why, at the 11th hour. No. The 12thhour, would Bioware give us these options? And why do we have to choose one? Why doesn’t Bioware let us argue with the deus ex machina? It’s not a matter of forgetting to record the lines for a sloppy ending. This was a deliberate decision made by people who have created sensational games. Do you really think this is how they would end it?
Shepard can’t be indoctrinated.
Bull****. Indoctrination can happen to anyone. From the Illusive Man, to Saren, to Udina. And Shepard is partially cybernetic due to being brought back from the dead. Hell. He or she doubts his or her own existence in the Cerberus base, wondering if they are, in fact, a very smart VI that thinks they are Commander Shepard. Even then they are worried about their own existence.


And again, let me remind you of Saren, who allowed Sovereign to implant him, ‘improve him’, and through those implants was controlled and ultimately dominated, mind and body, even after he was dead. And Shepard has a few snazzy implants and cybernetics, too. Which Chakwas very pointedly mentions during the opening couple of hours of the game.
Indoctrination isn’t purely about turning people into husks. It’s not about controlling their minds. It’s about steering them. Directing them. Pointing them toward a conclusion that they appear to want, that appears to be their only option, even though it plays right into the Reaper’s hands… tentacles… matter-deconstruction laser eyes. Whatever.
Sound familiar?
The Reapers wouldn’t brainwash Shepard into simply giving up. No one would fall in behind. But if they push him or her, if they make them think of the Reapers being too powerful, and that there are ‘acceptable’ costs to destroying creatures as vast and almighty as the Reapers, and cost was Shepard’s life… wouldn’t you choose that?

Wait. You did.


And finally, why would the Illusive Man not put a chip in your head if he knew you would turn against him? If he was indoctrinated the whole time? Why would the Reapers not want this to happen?
Because Shepard has to submit. Shepard had to stop fighting. And for people to believe that Shepard was not indoctrinated, Shepard had to behave like Shepard.
What blew my mind…
The point of the ending of Mass Effect 3 isn’t to show that Shepard has been indoctrinated, at least, that’s no longer how I see it. And it isn’t some quasai-intellectual, pseudo-philosophical moment where we are prompted to contemplate the future of the galaxy, and make up our own ending. Bioware does not do that. We were literally meant to sit back, stare at the screen, and go ‘why would Bioware do this?’ Not ‘Bioware a ****ing ****s who deserve to burn’, but ‘why would a company so renowned for loving its fans, and who make such wonderful stories, do this to us?’ We’re meant to wonder the reason why we were deliberately handed this ending.
You see, what we forget as we play through is that the only perspective we have is Commander Shepard’s. Some of us may not think of it that way, but that is the case. We only see what he or she sees, and we only perceive as he or she perceives. And Shepard would only know something was wrong with his or her own mind if we saw it.
What is the point of having an indoctrinated character if the person directing themknows they are indoctrinated? Shepard isn’t the only person that has been indoctrinated. We have. We didn’t see the subtle hints. Shepard didn’t notice the signs, and so we didn’t notice them. We were too caught up in saving Earth, just like Shepard. If Shepard had said, “Something’s wrong”, we would have noticed. We might have guessed. We would have gone straight for the ‘right’ option, regardless of what Bioware may have intended for the end. But because we were left with the idea that the control and synthesis options were the best options, we blindly moved towards them. Directed Shepard toward them.
And the Reapers win.


We, the players, were indoctrinated right alongside Shepard. And by sitting here and demanding that we have a different ending, we acknowledging that something is wrong. Something is broken. Something is not right. But instead of thinking that Bioware has
done this deliberately to us, we swung immediately into rage and hate and slammed them for the decision.
We are raging that Bioware betrayed our trust.
But we didn’t trust them.
I, myself, am guilty of this. And now that I sit back and think about it, about the games, about Bioware, all I can say is if that this is right, if this is what Bioware intended… If the true ending is yet to come…

[byne]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

I just rewatched the "after-dream-sequence" from the beginning of ME1 and it's just eerie how well the theory that everything was just a beacon-induced dream fits to Shep's comments.

Of course I don't believe that, but it's a nice touch.

I gotta say though, if that turned out to be true I'd be even more angry with the endings.

That would mean not only did I not actually travel the galaxy with Garrus, Wrex, Tali, and Liara, not only have I never even met them, but theres a distinct possibility they dont even exist and are just conjured up to represent people from Prothean times.

Any ending that implies that not only did I not have a relationship with Liara, but also implies she may not even exist is a horrible ending.

[Rksmithers]

oops

Modifié par Rksmithers, 24 avril 2012 - 06:52 .

[MaximizedAction]

^deleted? Here's the link:

uninhibitedandunrepentant.tumblr.com/post/19344938387/mind-holy-f*ck

My favorite comment on IT from a literary standpoint. So good, I put it on my kindle and use it as my source for hope...besides this thread, that is:

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 24 avril 2012 - 06:57 .

[Simon_Says]

Rksmithers wrote...

oops

MaximizedAction wrote...

^my favorite comment on IT from a literary standpoint.

[Rksmithers]

byne wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

I just rewatched the "after-dream-sequence" from the beginning of ME1 and it's just eerie how well the theory that everything was just a beacon-induced dream fits to Shep's comments.

Of course I don't believe that, but it's a nice touch.

I gotta say though, if that turned out to be true I'd be even more angry with the endings.

That would mean not only did I not actually travel the galaxy with Garrus, Wrex, Tali, and Liara, not only have I never even met them, but theres a distinct possibility they dont even exist and are just conjured up to represent people from Prothean times.

Any ending that implies that not only did I not have a relationship with Liara, but also implies she may not even exist is a horrible ending.

agreed... liara is really the reason why i got into mass effects story and everything else, and that mass effect is my #1 top favorite game of all time....

[Earthborn_Shepard]

Rksmithers wrote...

oops

... said Bioware as they looked into their forums

[Rksmithers]

MaximizedAction wrote...

^my favorite comment on IT from a literary standpoint. So good, I put it on my kindle and use it as my source for hope...besides this thread, that is.

what my thing?

[Skillz1986]

Shamelessly reposting

@byne
aethyta is implied to be alive. the asari in purgatory..the one you have to fimd the linrary of asha for? She mentions that mtriarch aethyta can expect new huntresses to train soon. or something like this

[byne]

Skillz1986 wrote...

Shamelessly reposting

@byne
aethyta is implied to be alive. the asari in purgatory..the one you have to fimd the linrary of asha for? She mentions that mtriarch aethyta can expect new huntresses to train soon. or something like this

That means she's still alive and can come tend the Normandy's bar!

Huzzah!

[MaximizedAction]

Rksmithers wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

^my favorite comment on IT from a literary standpoint. So good, I put it on my kindle and use it as my source for hope...besides this thread, that is.

what my thing?

Yeah, I edited my comment with the link...

[Rksmithers]

wait.... is aethyta liaras father?

[SS2Dante]

byne wrote...

Skillz1986 wrote...

Shamelessly reposting

@byne
aethyta is implied to be alive. the asari in purgatory..the one you have to fimd the linrary of asha for? She mentions that mtriarch aethyta can expect new huntresses to train soon. or something like this

That means she's still alive and can come tend the Normandy's bar!

Huzzah!

You gotta put that in the suggestion thread

[paxxton]

byne wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

I just rewatched the "after-dream-sequence" from the beginning of ME1 and it's just eerie how well the theory that everything was just a beacon-induced dream fits to Shep's comments.

Of course I don't believe that, but it's a nice touch.

I gotta say though, if that turned out to be true I'd be even more angry with the endings.

That would mean not only did I not actually travel the galaxy with Garrus, Wrex, Tali, and Liara, not only have I never even met them, but theres a distinct possibility they dont even exist and are just conjured up to represent people from Prothean times.

Any ending that implies that not only did I not have a relationship with Liara, but also implies she may not even exist is a horrible ending.

Byne! What I have to tell you might shock you. Sit down now!
 
You did not travel the galaxy.
You did not meet Garrus, Wrex, Tali and Liara.

And...

They do not exist. I'm so sorry.

But seriously that would mean we still have the whole Mass Effect trilogy before us.

Modifié par paxxton, 24 avril 2012 - 07:03 .