57139 réponses à ce sujet

[DirtyPhoenix]

Ok I saw one post here showing the kid chilling outside the room where we find him. I loaded an old save to check it and i saw this: Not only is the kid outside, but just as Shepard gets near it, the LOCKED (with red holo) door opens automatically and the kid gets inside, after that the door is locked again. Here's the screenshots. Now I'm 100% sure that kid is not real! I'm sorry if its apparent to you people but I needed evidence to convince myself


Kid outside; door locked.


Kid moving towards the door; door still locked


Kid is still a good distance away from the door and its already open!


Kid passing through the door. Note the funny thing: the holo is still floating in air. Normally in ME when we open a door the holo disappears.


Kid goes in; door closing


Door closed.

Right click and view image if your having trouble

[HellishFiend]

pirate1802 wrote...

Ok I saw one post here showing the kid chilling outside the room where we find him. I loaded an old save to check it and i saw this: Not only is the kid outside, but just as Shepard gets near it, the LOCKED (with red holo) door opens automatically and the kid gets inside, after that the door is locked again. Here's the screenshots. Now I'm 100% sure that kid is not real! I'm sorry if its apparent to you people but I needed evidence to convince myself

Door closed.

Right click and view image if your having trouble

Yep. Good job on the screens! I agree that this is a VERY strong indicator for IT. One could potentially argue that it is simply lack of "attention to detail" that causes the red "lock holo" not to go away when the door opens, but since the appearance of the kid in that scene at all is "attention to detail" in and of itself (not to mention that Shepard can not get through the door himself until it is blasted open), it seems like something that may have very well been intentional. 

[delphonic]

The whole issue with the kid and how he manifests himself throughout the game is definitely fishy. I doubt that he was just the catalyst following Shepard around and messing with his head. But given how insane the ending is in literal form who knows what they were thinking...

As it is the kid is a very strong indication that I.T. makes sense

[DirtyPhoenix]

HellishFiend wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Ok I saw one post here showing the kid chilling outside the room where we find him. I loaded an old save to check it and i saw this: Not only is the kid outside, but just as Shepard gets near it, the LOCKED (with red holo) door opens automatically and the kid gets inside, after that the door is locked again. Here's the screenshots. Now I'm 100% sure that kid is not real! I'm sorry if its apparent to you people but I needed evidence to convince myself

Door closed.

Right click and view image if your having trouble

Yep. Good job on the screens! I agree that this is a VERY strong indicator for IT. One could potentially argue that it is simply lack of "attention to detail" that causes the red "lock holo" not to go away when the door opens, but since the appearance of the kid in that scene at all is "attention to detail" in and of itself (not to mention that Shepard can not get through the door himself until it is blasted open), it seems like something that may have very well been intentional. 

There are three conclusions: 1. The kid is not real, 2. that kid is a super genius who can hack doors a good distance away. 3. Bioware is lazy™. But if they were lazy, what was the need of putting that kid there at all. Would have saved time if they hadn't, right?

[HellishFiend]

pirate1802 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Ok I saw one post here showing the kid chilling outside the room where we find him. I loaded an old save to check it and i saw this: Not only is the kid outside, but just as Shepard gets near it, the LOCKED (with red holo) door opens automatically and the kid gets inside, after that the door is locked again. Here's the screenshots. Now I'm 100% sure that kid is not real! I'm sorry if its apparent to you people but I needed evidence to convince myself

Door closed.

Right click and view image if your having trouble

Yep. Good job on the screens! I agree that this is a VERY strong indicator for IT. One could potentially argue that it is simply lack of "attention to detail" that causes the red "lock holo" not to go away when the door opens, but since the appearance of the kid in that scene at all is "attention to detail" in and of itself (not to mention that Shepard can not get through the door himself until it is blasted open), it seems like something that may have very well been intentional. 

There are three conclusions: 1. The kid is not real, 2. that kid is a super genius who can hack doors a good distance away. 3. Bioware is lazy™. But if they were lazy, what was the need of putting that kid there at all. Would have saved time if they hadn't, right?

Exactly. It shocks me how often people claim Bioware lacks attention to detail and is lazy when they go out of their way time and again to put in things that appear to support IT and otherwise serve no purpose to the game. 

[RoyalGambit]

About the lazy part. I know this doesn't prove anything, but in ME2, Thane walks through a locked door, but right as he reaches it, it turns green. Wonder if they wouldn't have done the same thing if the kid was real. Or at least removed the giant red locked-symbol.

Modifié par RoyalGambit, 25 avril 2012 - 07:12 .

[Vahilor]

RoyalGambit wrote...

About the lazy part. I know this doesn't prove anything, but in ME2, Thane walks through a locked door, but right as he reaches it, it turns green. Wonder if they wouldn't have done the same thing if the kid was real. Or at least removed the giant red locked-symbol.

I don't really know, but I don't think they forgott to remove it here.. and everywere you see the kid it feels deplaced and fishy. Even when the kid is playing with the airplane it somehow feels totaly deplaced.. the kid even seems to be the only person in the whole area.

[DirtyPhoenix]

But why put the kid there at all? Takes away resounces for no apparent reason. The Thane part is understandable. I'd give you an example. If you noticed, the doctor who treats Thane after he gets stabbed is EXACTLY the same model and voice as Darner Vosque, the Blue Suns leader. Here I accept the Lazy Bioware agreement and seems true. But why put that kid scene there at all, theres no reason to it. The kid is so small and distant it doesnt evoke any emotions and many people are sure to miss it.

[Vahilor]

pirate1802 wrote...

But why put the kid there at all? Takes away resounces for no apparent reason. The Thane part is understandable. I'd give you an example. If you noticed, the doctor who treats Thane after he gets stabbed is EXACTLY the same model and voice as Darner Vosque, the Blue Suns leader. Here I accept the Lazy Bioware agreement and seems true. But why put that kid scene there at all, theres no reason to it. The kid is so small and distant it doesnt evoke any emotions and many people are sure to miss it.

The only explanation for me is to put the kid there cause it is not really there and only a tool used by the reapers to weaken Shep.
If that's not the case.. I don't know what BW thought.. in the art book it is stated the child should resemble all people who Shep could not save.. but that's also fishy..

[DirtyPhoenix]

I'm now trying to find out exactly where that kid was when the game starts and how he reached the point where we find him.

[Gormane01]

The locked door is, I personally feel, a less compelling piece of evidence than alot of others (not irrelevant though) but I do feel this could have been an oversight.

Although I do note that to my knowledge Bioware has always changed the door colour when ever someone has gone through it. Shepard of otherwise (Or they have just left the colour off the door altogether)

[spotlessvoid]

Gormane01 wrote...

The locked door is, I personally feel, a less compelling piece of evidence than alot of others (not irrelevant though) but I do feel this could have been an oversight.

Although I do note that to my knowledge Bioware has always changed the door colour when ever someone has gone through it. Shepard of otherwise (Or they have just left the colour off the door altogether)

I think the idea is that Bioware put in extra effort to be lazy. That doesn't exactly make sense. Why, if their intent was to save time, would they take the time to add extra things that don't make sense? Things that consistently suggest a hidden meaning tha so happens to be one of the central themes of the games?

[HellishFiend]

Gormane01 wrote...

The locked door is, I personally feel, a less compelling piece of evidence than alot of others (not irrelevant though) but I do feel this could have been an oversight.

Although I do note that to my knowledge Bioware has always changed the door colour when ever someone has gone through it. Shepard of otherwise (Or they have just left the colour off the door altogether)

When I say it is a very strong indicator, I mean the kid's involvement in the entire opening of the game in general, and all the elements that comprise it. 

• Why did Bioware put the kid there at all? Why does he get so much screen time? He is the first kid EVER in a mass effect game
• How did the Kid get there from the garden where he was playing? He was at ground level when we first saw him, and we're crawling around rooftops in the middle of a Reaper invasion. Further, how does he get from the rooftop vent to the escape shuttle afterwards? Do you recall what WE had to go through to get there?
• Why doesnt the kid think Shepard can help him?
• How does he get through the locked door, and why does the red lock hologram persist when the door opens for him?
• Why is there a unique and odd (bolt to the brain) electric shock danger sign by the vent?
• Why does the kid continually focus on looking directly at Shepard while he is standing at and boarding the shuttle?
• Why do we hear a creepy scream (more audible if you turn music off) when the kid's shuttle is destroyed?

That's not even a complete list, but you get the idea. 

[spotlessvoid]

I have repeatedly seen people compare this to an "it was all just a dream" ending/retcon, but I think the huge difference is that indoctrination is such a primary part of the story that it's just wrong to claim it breaks the narrative by coming out of nowhere and invalidating everything. If anything, it's actually the natural progression of the story. Why wouldn't Harbinger attempt to weaken and indoctrinate Shepard?

[HellishFiend]

spotlessvoid wrote...

I have repeatedly seen people compare this to an "it was all just a dream" ending/retcon, but I think the huge difference is that indoctrination is such a primary part of the story that it's just wrong to claim it breaks the narrative by coming out of nowhere and invalidating everything. If anything, it's actually the natural progression of the story. Why wouldn't Harbinger attempt to weaken and indoctrinate Shepard?

Exactly. This isnt Dallas where the creators decide to make an entire season a dream so they can retcon a dead character back into the show. This isnt LOST where the story suddenly abandons plot and lore in favor of character driven narrative. Indoctrination is a constant, looming, ever-present danger in the mass effect storyline, and I know if the end goal was to attempt to cause the PLAYER to become indoctrinated in addition to Shepard, everything they have done up to this point has served that purpose perfectly. That includes the complete absence of Harbinger as well as the contents of the "dream" sequences and other "apparent plot holes".

[MrPuschel]

Is this still the discussion "everything is so ****ty executed, it has to be an artistic attempt and/or vision".

I mean, the door scene, come on guys seriously. It is a game. It is not the reality. Isnt it kinda obvious that the kid of course was not an player entitiy, it was a prop and the designer opened the door manually as part of a script. So no "holo movement".

Go and found a curch or something.

[Auralius Carolus]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Why wouldn't Harbinger attempt to weaken and indoctrinate Shepard?

If you last long enough during the Object Rho encounter, Harbinger openly admits that "Your mind will be mine." That's near the very end of the very last DLC for ME2. Six months later, (in the canon), ME3 begins and the first thing you see through Shepard's eyes is the child.

A few minutes later you, (possibly), get a forshadowing of the dreams and the, (apparent), K.O. at the end of the game, when Shepard gets knocked backward by a Reaper beam and begins to heard the ambiance from the dreams.

Everything is narratively sound.

[HellishFiend]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Why wouldn't Harbinger attempt to weaken and indoctrinate Shepard?

If you last long enough during the Object Rho encounter, Harbinger openly admits that "Your mind will be mine." That's near the very end of the very last DLC for ME2. Six months later, (in the canon), ME3 begins and the first thing you see through Shepard's eyes is the child.

A few minutes later you, (possibly), get a forshadowing of the dreams and the, (apparent), K.O. at the end of the game, when Shepard gets knocked backward by a Reaper beam and begins to heard the ambiance from the dreams.

Everything is narratively sound.

Yep, "narratively sound" is a good way of putting what I was trying to say in my last post. If you assume that IT was Bioware's intent, they did a very good job of delivering it, and the events and dialog in the Arrival DLC are a big part of it. Considering they put together Arrival while ME3 was already well in production, it becomes an even stronger possibility. 

[spotlessvoid]

Is it possible that the Reaper on Rannoch was sacrificed by Harbinger to get Shepard in close proximity to a strong indoctrination signal? That Reaper wasn't exactly doing a great job of taking you out. How hard was it trying? All it took was some juking from side to side over a few dozen meters. I understand it took the Quarian fleet to take it out, but that makes the fact that one of these imposing metallic monsters can't kill a single human dancing around right in front of it

[HellishFiend]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Is it possible that the Reaper on Rannoch was sacrificed by Harbinger to get Shepard in close proximity to a strong indoctrination signal? That Reaper wasn't exactly doing a great job of taking you out. How hard was it trying? All it took was some juking from side to side over a few dozen meters. I understand it took the Quarian fleet to take it out, but that makes the fact that one of these imposing metallic monsters can't kill a single human dancing around right in front of it

It's hard to say. "Plot armor" is obviously a necessary evil in all forms of storytelling, but it is entirely possible that if IT is true, that the Reapers actually go out of their way to allow Shepard to do his thing in order to serve their own purposes. They blow up two shuttles instead of the Normandy at the beginning, fail to kill him on Tuchanka, fail to kill him on Rannoch, fail to kill him during the conduit run, etc. 

edit: but yeah, I'd say if the Reaper deliberately didnt kill him, it was just for the sake of deliberately not killing him. It probably wasnt necessary to "expose" him to any further signals at that point. 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 25 avril 2012 - 08:41 .

[Auralius Carolus]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Is it possible that the Reaper on Rannoch was sacrificed by Harbinger to get Shepard in close proximity to a strong indoctrination signal? That Reaper wasn't exactly doing a great job of taking you out. How hard was it trying? All it took was some juking from side to side over a few dozen meters. I understand it took the Quarian fleet to take it out, but that makes the fact that one of these imposing metallic monsters can't kill a single human dancing around right in front of it

Not likely. Indoctrination seems to come from nanite implantation which slowly builds within the body, delivering bursts of EMF and ISF waves. This implantation was likely accomplished by Object Rho.

The poor aim by the Rannoch Reaper was probably based on damage from being shot, as well as a likely reduction of aiming speed while it's beam was active.

[Vahilor]

spotlessvoid wrote...

I have repeatedly seen people compare this to an "it was all just a dream" ending/retcon, but I think the huge difference is that indoctrination is such a primary part of the story that it's just wrong to claim it breaks the narrative by coming out of nowhere and invalidating everything. If anything, it's actually the natural progression of the story. Why wouldn't Harbinger attempt to weaken and indoctrinate Shepard?

I only can talk for me, but Shep is not really indoctrinated in the whole game until he gets hit my Harbingers beam.. cause he is to strong willed. So the Reapers weaken Sheps mind over the whole game so manipulation/indoctrination becomes easier and in the end can be done to achive their goal.

[HellishFiend]

Vahilor wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

I have repeatedly seen people compare this to an "it was all just a dream" ending/retcon, but I think the huge difference is that indoctrination is such a primary part of the story that it's just wrong to claim it breaks the narrative by coming out of nowhere and invalidating everything. If anything, it's actually the natural progression of the story. Why wouldn't Harbinger attempt to weaken and indoctrinate Shepard?

I only can talk for me, but Shep is not really indoctrinated in the whole game until he gets hit my Harbingers beam.. cause he is to strong willed. So the Reapers weaken Sheps mind over the whole game so manipulation/indoctrination becomes easier and in the end can be done to achive their goal.

Right. There is a difference between "indoctrination" and "indoctrinated". I'd still loosely define the "dreams" and "weakening" that occurs throughout the game as "indoctrination", but I dont think it openly affects any of Shepard's actual actions or thought processes until Harbinger's beam. 

[MrPuschel]

*blinks after reading the whole site*

You guys know that you're kinda scary, ya?

[DirtyPhoenix]

MrPuschel wrote...


Is this still the discussion "everything is so ****ty executed, it has to be an artistic attempt and/or vision".

I mean, the door scene, come on guys seriously. It is a game. It is not the reality. Isnt it kinda obvious that the kid of course was not an player entitiy, it was a prop and the designer opened the door manually as part of a script. So no "holo movement".

Go and found a curch or something.

You are missing the point. the point is not even the door opening and closing. the point is why put the kid there at all? It serves no purpose, and most people would outright miss it. I myself missed it in my four playuthroughs untill I saw a screenie posted here by somewhere.