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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#43551
HellishFiend

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Stegoceras wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

- Vega telling you he's hearing a "hum"


Just wondering, could the hum be refering to a humming Mordin? I'm not entirely sure but I think they conversation popped up right after getting Mordin aboard, afterwards if you go up to medbay, Mordin is singing and humming his song. Possible explanation, not sure if the facts line up though (or if I'm mistaken about the timing of the two events) and if the Normandy even allows people to hear something two decks down, then again I'm not entirely sure how it fits in with Indoctrination either, you are being indoctrinated and James hears a hum?


Reaper indoctrination devices are known to cause hums....

#43552
Baldsake

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liggy002 wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

Baldsake wrote...


First of all I never stated I believe/don't believe in the IDT, I just said that IMO that one bit of audio is completely irrelevant to anything.. Personally I don't believe that the IDT is true, not for a lack of in-game hints/clues but because I don't think EA/BW would ever do this planned.. And how can you believe something 80%? You either believe or it or you don't. I think the EC will continue/clarify the current ending at face value. If the IT is true then there's no way in hell they planned it or they would've already had the EC ready.


I said I believe the IT 80 %, because as long as Bioware doesn't make an official statement about it (DLC EC), it stay at the state of a theory. On the side so many clues/hints/coincidences in-game force me to take it as very plausible, more than the actual face-value ending (it's hard to believe that Bioware could have sc****d up to that point)... So I'm just trying to be objective...
I'm really curious about the DLC, because it'll decide either the ME trilogy was the biggest success in the videogame history or its utterst failure...




Yes, indeed it will.  Either way I will laugh at it all.  Even though IT being untrue would be very sad, they say that laughter is the best medicine.

I haven't even touched SP in about 3 weeks.. If the EC sucks then that's just too bad, but I won't even care TBH, it can't be worse than what it is now and even if, let's say, the IT is in fact true, I still hate the fact that a lot of the tough choices throughout the series really don't matter at the end of the game.

#43553
SS2Dante

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Stegoceras wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

- Vega telling you he's hearing a "hum"


Just wondering, could the hum be refering to a humming Mordin? I'm not entirely sure but I think they conversation popped up right after getting Mordin aboard, afterwards if you go up to medbay, Mordin is singing and humming his song. Possible explanation, not sure if the facts line up though (or if I'm mistaken about the timing of the two events) and if the Normandy even allows people to hear something two decks down, then again I'm not entirely sure how it fits in with Indoctrination either, you are being indoctrinated and James hears a hum?


The idea is that the Reaper IFF is Reaper tech so broadcasting the low level indoctrination to the ship. Hence the hum. Presumably people haven't been on the ship long enough to feel the effects.

#43554
Uncle Jo

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HellishFiend wrote...


I agree. The EC and whether or not IT is true (and how well they execute it, if it is true) will probably determine whether or not Mass Effect goes down as the Star Wars of gaming for our generation or one of the biggest letdowns in gaming history. 


You know, I'm playing videogames for a very long time (since the first Mario I think), but I never ever replayed any game I've already finished... till Mass Effect came. As well as I never was the guy who posts in forums... till ME3 came :D
I've tried DEHR right after ME3... well I didn't go further than the 1st mission. Although it sure might be a good game...

I can't wait for the DLC "retake Omega" and see Aria "using violence". It would be cool to have her as squadmate... and maybe more :innocent: I'm fond of the blue ones...

#43555
Baldsake

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Uncle Jo wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


I agree. The EC and whether or not IT is true (and how well they execute it, if it is true) will probably determine whether or not Mass Effect goes down as the Star Wars of gaming for our generation or one of the biggest letdowns in gaming history. 


You know, I'm playing videogames for a very long time (since the first Mario I think), but I never ever replayed any game I've already finished... till Mass Effect came. As well as I never was the guy who posts in forums... till ME3 came :D
I've tried DEHR right after ME3... well I didn't go further than the 1st mission. Although it sure might be a good game...

I can't wait for the DLC "retake Omega" and see Aria "using violence". It would be cool to have her as squadmate... and maybe more :innocent: I'm fond of the blue ones...


DEHR was an excellent game in my opinion, except for the horrible boss fights and the ending (sound familiar?)

#43556
Uncle Jo

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paxxton wrote...



Well, Shepard defeated many enemies along the way through London. He just made it to the beam. There must always be a limit on how many enemies you have to defeat to achieve a goal.

There are better clues in the game than MS to support IT.


I'll never buy this and I've mentioned other clues. One more time you have to look at the whole picture, if you just pick up a hint out of its context, it sure seems irrelevant...

#43557
HellishFiend

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Uncle Jo wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


I agree. The EC and whether or not IT is true (and how well they execute it, if it is true) will probably determine whether or not Mass Effect goes down as the Star Wars of gaming for our generation or one of the biggest letdowns in gaming history. 


You know, I'm playing videogames for a very long time (since the first Mario I think), but I never ever replayed any game I've already finished... till Mass Effect came. As well as I never was the guy who posts in forums... till ME3 came :D
I've tried DEHR right after ME3... well I didn't go further than the 1st mission. Although it sure might be a good game...

I can't wait for the DLC "retake Omega" and see Aria "using violence". It would be cool to have her as squadmate... and maybe more :innocent: I'm fond of the blue ones...



I'm quite different. If I like a game enough I will usually replay it immediately after finishing the first time around in order to better absorb the story and experience anything I might have missed or that flew over my head the first time around. Heck, I must have replayed Final Fantasy 7 at least 5 times...

#43558
Uncle Jo

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SS2Dante wrote...

Stegoceras wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

- Vega telling you he's hearing a "hum"


Just wondering, could the hum be refering to a humming Mordin? I'm not entirely sure but I think they conversation popped up right after getting Mordin aboard, afterwards if you go up to medbay, Mordin is singing and humming his song. Possible explanation, not sure if the facts line up though (or if I'm mistaken about the timing of the two events) and if the Normandy even allows people to hear something two decks down, then again I'm not entirely sure how it fits in with Indoctrination either, you are being indoctrinated and James hears a hum?


The idea is that the Reaper IFF is Reaper tech so broadcasting the low level indoctrination to the ship. Hence the hum. Presumably people haven't been on the ship long enough to feel the effects.

I'm not very sure about this. Remember Joker and Garrus stayed as long as Shep on the Normandy and don't show any sign of indoc...

Edit: Okay Shep had more contacts with Reapers artifacts, but still...

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 25 avril 2012 - 02:16 .


#43559
BatmanTurian

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I've been thinking about the end sequence for a couple days now and I have a reasonable speculation of how it might have went down.

Going on the theory of a mixed hallucination/reality, since Shep apparently never left London, I believe that Harby did knock him out and was still standing next to the Beam. You walking to the beam might be Reaper ground forces/husks taking you closer to the beam. The fact that you shoot some of them down in your fever dream really means nothing since the husks feel no emotion except the Reaper's hate.

Then the citadel dream happens and that is a complete fabrication. You resist Indoctrination through TIM and then pass out again, leading to ANOTHER DREAM which is actually an amalgam of hallucination and reality again.

This time you're standing up of your own free will with the Reaper forces gathered around, some watching you, others guarding you from outside forces like Hammer. Harby takes the form of Starchild. Since it's established that he could control the Collectors from Dark Space, it's not out of the realm of possibility that once he even gets to the Sol system or even before, HE is the one putting spacekid in Shepherd's head from beginning to end. He establishes that link properly when the Reapers get to the Sol system. At any rate, you decide to walk left, you grab some downed cables and electrocute yourself and are thrown into the beam by the Reaper forces to be indoctrinated.

Go into the beam, and the Reapers don't even have to bother to throw you in, you're processing yourself and surrendering yourself to Harbinger without dying first as in Control.

HOWEVER, turn to the right and go to the destroy option and you shoot... something explosive. It could be a car engine or a cache of guns, explosives, and missiles (a reaper armory near the beam, if you will, which could be argued as Reaper HQ). At any rate, it's something substantial but not enough to kill Shepherd. It knocks out the Reaper forces around you and perhaps scatters the others left behind because suddenly Harbinger is stunned (as in "I can't believe he just did that") that Shepherd has completely resisted the Attempt (everybody that did this had to shoot themselves in the head first and die. Death was the only way out). Not to mention Shep could be shooting Harbinger himself in the leg if the aiming is to be taken literal, or in the head if the mixture skews your hallucinations further. If you shot Harbinger when he is at his most vulnerable ( indoctrination attempt at over 9000), then it might cause Harby to suddenly reassess his goal of trying to take Shep alive and the indoctrination attempt would end of Harbinger's accord as well as Shep's own at the same time.

So my opinion is that the end may be mix of reality and fantasy. Shep may not be lying in the rubble the whole time, if we are to guess that this could be a mixture of reality and Shep hallucinating. In fact, Shep may have destroyed one of the pillars of the beam when he/she resisted indoc and chose destroy (or if he had shot Harbinger, Harbinger could have clumsily hit one of the beam pillars himself in his reaction to you shooting him). If one of the pillars is destroyed, the beam might be intermittent or may not work properly and the Reapers can no longer process organics. The light may be there, but the eezo space elevator might be stalled, if you get my drift.

Again, this is just my theory that could work within the theory. I, myself, am not completely sold on it but I see it as a possibility.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 25 avril 2012 - 02:29 .


#43560
paxxton

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Uncle Jo wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Well, Shepard defeated many enemies along the way through London. He just made it to the beam. There must always be a limit on how many enemies you have to defeat to achieve a goal.

There are better clues in the game than MS to support IT.


I'll never buy this and I've mentioned other clues. One more time you have to look at the whole picture, if you just pick up a hint out of its context, it sure seems irrelevant...


Shepard had to fight his way through London to get to the beam. I think considering the whole level as a coherent challenge is a broader picture than saying that to get to the beam he only had to kill a marauder.

Modifié par paxxton, 25 avril 2012 - 02:20 .


#43561
Rifneno

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SS2Dante wrote...

The idea is that the Reaper IFF is Reaper tech so broadcasting the low level indoctrination to the ship. Hence the hum. Presumably people haven't been on the ship long enough to feel the effects.


An IFF is software.  Or at least, a code.  Not saying it COULDN'T be the IFF, but I doubt it is.

#43562
Uncle Jo

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Rifneno wrote...





My favorite part is that Harbinger actually leaves.  What.  Why would he do that?  If that beam had to be protected, it still needs protecting.  He killed one wave of people trying to get in, that doesn't mean it's safe indefinitely.  Stupid metal squid.

Exactly what I think. The Reapers should have shut down the beam temporally though, since it is in the middle of a warzone...

#43563
DJBare

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liggy002 wrote...

But then why go to such great lengths to hide it or mask it with music?  It's obvious that Shepard is feeling despair when he sees the kid get on the shuttle and the shuttle blows up. They wouldn't need to hide that from us or even add that in there at all unless it had some sort of deeper meaning.

Like the rooftop scene, a badly done subtle hint, obviously some people did hear enough to investigate further, but not everyone has hidef surround sound, most are probably using desktop speakers like me.

As I explained earlier, if the developers were attemping to give clues regarding IT, they could not just outright tell the player that Shepard is indoctrinate, that negates the whole premise of indoctrination, that the victims are not aware they are indoctrinated, consider Shepard as the proxy for the player, if the clue is too obvious the player goes "I know what's happening!!"; if too subtle then the player cannot piece together the clues throughout the game, the player is not supposed to get what's happening to Shepard until near the end when all the clues are pieced together.

Modifié par DJBare, 25 avril 2012 - 02:28 .


#43564
DirtyPhoenix

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As I watch the child scream video again and again I can't help but think its intentional. How the music completely cuts away everytime the camera focuses on Shep...

#43565
Earthborn_Shepard

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pirate1802 wrote...

As I watch the child scream video again and again I can't help but think its intentional. How the music completely cuts away everytime the camera focuses on Shep...


there's a video now? Link plz :happy:

#43566
DirtyPhoenix

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www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par pirate1802, 25 avril 2012 - 02:30 .


#43567
ManznPain

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pirate1802 wrote...

www.youtube.com/watch


That scream creeps me out :o

#43568
SS2Dante

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Rifneno wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

The idea is that the Reaper IFF is Reaper tech so broadcasting the low level indoctrination to the ship. Hence the hum. Presumably people haven't been on the ship long enough to feel the effects.


An IFF is software.  Or at least, a code.  Not saying it COULDN'T be the IFF, but I doubt it is.


Pretty sure it's a physical object (obviously it contains software, but it's still a physical device)

#43569
MJF JD

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ManznPain wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

www.youtube.com/watch


That scream creeps me out :o


right after the first reaper sound you hear that sound that is present in the later "dreams" as well if im not mistaken.  

#43570
MadRabbit999

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I honestly do not see how can that play any part in the IT at all... either if it is in his head or is to enhance the dramatic moment.

Maybe the scream was in his head and the kid was real, ever thought about that, or only pro-IT feedback is a allowed here?

#43571
SS2Dante

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Uncle Jo wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Stegoceras wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

- Vega telling you he's hearing a "hum"


Just wondering, could the hum be refering to a humming Mordin? I'm not entirely sure but I think they conversation popped up right after getting Mordin aboard, afterwards if you go up to medbay, Mordin is singing and humming his song. Possible explanation, not sure if the facts line up though (or if I'm mistaken about the timing of the two events) and if the Normandy even allows people to hear something two decks down, then again I'm not entirely sure how it fits in with Indoctrination either, you are being indoctrinated and James hears a hum?


The idea is that the Reaper IFF is Reaper tech so broadcasting the low level indoctrination to the ship. Hence the hum. Presumably people haven't been on the ship long enough to feel the effects.

I'm not very sure about this. Remember Joker and Garrus stayed as long as Shep on the Normandy and don't show any sign of indoc...

Edit: Okay Shep had more contacts with Reapers artifacts, but still...





Oh, I'm not claiming it's causing Sheps indoctrination, just giving a reason for the hum. 

#43572
BatmanTurian

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SS2Dante wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

The idea is that the Reaper IFF is Reaper tech so broadcasting the low level indoctrination to the ship. Hence the hum. Presumably people haven't been on the ship long enough to feel the effects.


An IFF is software.  Or at least, a code.  Not saying it COULDN'T be the IFF, but I doubt it is.


Pretty sure it's a physical object (obviously it contains software, but it's still a physical device)

Yes it's a physical object carrying the software. Wiki here: http://masseffect.wi...wiki/Reaper_IFF

pic here : http://images.wikia..../Reaper_IFF.png

#43573
Uncle Jo

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paxxton wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Well, Shepard defeated many enemies along the way through London. He just made it to the beam. There must always be a limit on how many enemies you have to defeat to achieve a goal.

There are better clues in the game than MS to support IT.


I'll never buy this and I've mentioned other clues. One more time you have to look at the whole picture, if you just pick up a hint out of its context, it sure seems irrelevant...


Shepard had to fight his way through London to get to the beam. I think considering the whole level as a coherent challenge is a broader picture than saying that to get to the beam he only had to kill a marauder.


I do see your point. But no, I can't agree with you. Getting conveniently  in an EMPTY part of the citadel and not far away from the activation panel with a magical gun, just to hear the load of bull**** of the Star brat and then choose which way you're going to die (electrocuted/disintegrated/reduced to cosmic dust) is not coherent. This is the whole picture...

Edit: I would prefered being torn apart by Harbinger's beam, it'd still have made more sense...

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 25 avril 2012 - 02:40 .


#43574
SS2Dante

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MadRabbit999 wrote...

I honestly do not see how can that play any part in the IT at all... either if it is in his head or is to enhance the dramatic moment.

Maybe the scream was in his head and the kid was real, ever thought about that, or only pro-IT feedback is a allowed here?


Coherent argument's are appreciated.

And I'm sorry, but saying you don't see how the scream indicates IT if it's in Shepards head...THAT is faith against evidence, right there. You've picked a side and are sticking with it, regardless of evidence.

#43575
SS2Dante

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MJF JD wrote...

ManznPain wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

www.youtube.com/watch


That scream creeps me out :o


right after the first reaper sound you hear that sound that is present in the later "dreams" as well if im not mistaken.  


Yeah. Pure speculation, but it's possible that the first growl you hear is real and the second isn't.