57139 réponses à ce sujet

[SS2Dante]

DJBare wrote...

Chris Readman wrote...

The problem with accepting the Indoctrination Theory as a whole is that it seems like a desperate attempts by fans of the series to put the writers on a pedastal. I'm sorry if this sounds blunt, but that's the way it seems to me.

Some of us are far from placing them on a pedastal, they attempted something and it failed, hence the backlash, control of Shepard through IT was a Bioware idea, it's in the Final Hours App.

Why do you say it failed?

[Baldsake]

Rksmithers wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

I find the notion that QA removed all the previous screams and somehow
missed this one FAR more unlikely than even the most far reaching IT
stuff. Also, you really think that that scene wasn't written, scripted
and storyboarded with care? It's the opening credits! You don't just
change stuff around willy-nilly (heh) in a game like that.

If you'll look back actually you'll find repeated clarifications of the words "proof" and "evidence" used in this thread.

You
seem to what definitive "proof", with literal as your fallback stance.
unfortunately this is something you cannot have until the DLC comes out,
so you must look at probabilities. To my mind, the probability of all
these odd occurences syncing up perfectly by accident is far far lower
than the probability that Bioware can make good games.

No, QA did not remove anything.... QA gets to do their daily tests, or however the test cut-scenes.. they do not get told "watch if you can hear screams" nope... they need to watch out for bugs and things that do not make sense, they get given the scene and test it to the death, then 4 months later, after hundreds of tests on this scene, they removed sounds and placed music instead... do you really think it is easy to spot? Nope, they are not told "Check we removed every single sound",  they still need to spot bugs and things that makes no sense.

And yes, you storybaord and create scenes, but you also edit and cut out because things on paper looked better than o nthe screen, or sometimes a new better idea comes to mind....also, have you seen the endings of the game? Do they look properly storyboarded to you? Jeff running away, and the whole "where did your friends suddenly dissapeared during the last run"?

Most people goes "Ah yes this is proof!" as soon as they see the most light glint of light in the character eyes or the slightest fart in the air.

Aslo ,sorry to dissapoint you but the extended cut will not prove or disproove IT, becaue they want you to talk over and over, making up stuff so the interest for ME does not die.

Also if IT is true, means that Shepard needs to wake up and the story is not over, which means it needs a new ending, which they already stated, they will not do so (Not changing of the current ones, nor adding they said). And do you really think they would finish a great saga without a real conclusion?

leave.... sieriously, your nothing more than a self pretencious ass hole, who seems to have nothing better to do than try and make them selves feel better by attempting to crush peoples hopes, you have no "proof" your self let alone any sufficient "evidence", so get out and stay out..... you cause nothing more than a battlefield everytime you come on this thread, we dont take kindly to you kind, so.....

[b]AHEM


get ouuuuuuuuuutttttttt

Lmao, it's a videogame discussion thread, take it easy. He/She has as much a right to voice his/her opinion as anyone else.. As for the lame name-calling, I suggest you stop that too because it's not helping anything.

[MadRabbit999]

Rifneno wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Not at all, check hundreds of posts back I was here almsot from the start and drop from week to week, I have both bashed and supported IT, I do not take sides, I rather see concrete proofs not speculations or I would go to a religion forum and discuss "beliefs" over facts, there.

Then get out. This place is for fans to discuss IT and related topics. We're free to speculate and theorize all we want. If we want to talk about a thought or idea that couldn't currently be proven in a court of law, we don't have to justify ourselves to people like you. If you don't like it, get out. I promise we won't miss one more self-superior quasi-troll that compares us to conspiracy nuts or zealots.

Ah.... thanks for proving my point "Beleive in what I say or get out", do you by any chance work as a religious councilor or something?

Dude, IT is NOT yours, you do NOT reppresent IT, you CANNOT tell me where to go or what to do... clear?

You want to speculate your points, I am here to poke holes in your logic, THIS is what forums are for.... if you cannot accept the normal usage of fourms then GET OUT.

[Rosewind]

I honestly think that scream is just for dramatic effect and still cant believe you guys are still talking about it lol.

[HellishFiend]

Where is lexor when you need him. He always lightens the mood with a nice motivational poster or something....

I think I'll go play some MP and let things cool down here a bit...

Modifié par HellishFiend, 25 avril 2012 - 03:56 .

[Vahilor]

We should invent a small Browser game and name it Troll Wars.. so if the rage starts again... everybody goes to play some rounds to cool down ^^

[Tirian Thorn]

ExtendedCut wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...



So let’s take it a step further then. 

Since Bioware knew that the ending would be polarizing isn’t it reasonable to assume that the ending as it stands was fully planned out?  I guess it depends on whether you think Bioware was lazy and put out a hastily thrown together ending to make money and save time  OR that they are the game designers that that have put out great games like Baldur’s Gate, Neverwinter Nights, KOTOR, Jade Empire,  and Dragon Age?

They’ve made some tremendous games over the years.  And for those that played KOTOR, remember the major plot twist? Did anyone see that coming?  I’d call BS if anyone says they did.  But when they explained it, the clues were always there for everyone to see, that’s what made it even better – that they left clues. 

So do you really think that the same company that brought us – in my opinion –the best plot twist since Vader fathered Luke are a bunch of incompetent money-grubbing half-wits or a just pulling of a massive plot twist? 

At first, I thought that Bioware was absolutely imcompetent and clueless for not anticipating this "uproar" and backlash about their ending to the ME trilogy.

But now, like you said, I have completely changed my mind.  I am on other forums more-so than this one, and I can say almost certainly that Bioware, the company, has NEVER had as much publicity as they have gotten in the last two months.  And, as they say, any publicity is good publicity.

Bioware might just turn out to be a bunch of geniouses...

They're either bozzos or brilliant. 

And based on their track record I think it's safe to say that they know how to craft a story.  Based on my experiences, I think they're pretty diligent on hiring people who know to write a good story.  "Good" is subjective of course. 

A few years ago Bioware was hiring and to be considered you had to use the DA: Origin Creation kit and create a 15 minute (minimum)  story with game-play and dialogue to even be considered for the position.  Maybe that's standard in the gaming industry, but it seems like they take things pretty serious. 

I don't put them on a pedastal and believe they can do no wrong, but I think they've earned a little trust from me. 

I don't think they are a bunch of bow-legged bumbling bat-brained buck-toothed baboons. 

Modifié par Tirian Thorn, 25 avril 2012 - 03:58 .

[Baldsake]

SS2Dante wrote...

Baldsake wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Baldsake wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

I find it funny how the music cuts away the exact moment shep spots the kid. before that everything was normal.

There was no music in the video, that was the whole point... There have been some very solid hints at the IDT in this thread... The scream is not one of them.

I think he meant to say the ambient sound effects cut away at that moment, not the music. 

Oh, alright then.. Well there are some sound effects being played prior to the scream.. But yeah I honestly think that was for dramatic effect.

Then why is it hidden? This is the key point. You played with your levels adjusted so ok, but on normal levels you do not hear the scream (that you shouldn't be able to hear anyway, over explosions and all the other stuff going on). Some dramatic effect it is.

So can you really not hear it with default settings? Even if you pay close attention? I doubt that.. If so, however, it still doesn't really strike me as odd, because it may very well be a subliminal message/sound that adds to the atmosphere.. Anyway I've talked way too much about a small bit of audio lol.

[Baldsake]

Rosewind wrote...

I honestly think that scream is just for dramatic effect and still cant believe you guys are still talking about it lol.

My thoughts exactly lol.

[SS2Dante]

Baldsake wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Baldsake wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Baldsake wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

I find it funny how the music cuts away the exact moment shep spots the kid. before that everything was normal.

There was no music in the video, that was the whole point... There have been some very solid hints at the IDT in this thread... The scream is not one of them.

I think he meant to say the ambient sound effects cut away at that moment, not the music. 

Oh, alright then.. Well there are some sound effects being played prior to the scream.. But yeah I honestly think that was for dramatic effect.

Then why is it hidden? This is the key point. You played with your levels adjusted so ok, but on normal levels you do not hear the scream (that you shouldn't be able to hear anyway, over explosions and all the other stuff going on). Some dramatic effect it is.

So can you really not hear it with default settings? Even if you pay close attention? I doubt that.. If so, however, it still doesn't really strike me as odd, because it may very well be a subliminal message/sound that adds to the atmosphere.. Anyway I've talked way too much about a small bit of audio lol.

If you're listening closely you can catch the tail end of the scream as it hits the ground, but that's it.

And fair enough. it just strikes me as incredibly odd that you should hear a scream of any kind from either shuttle, but *shrug* a lot of people seem to feel otherwise.

[Chris Readman]

SS2Dante wrote...

We accept that it is conjecture. However, I think the problem with your post is that it stated - as many do - that there are flaws in IT, yet you didn't cite any. People do this every day in this thread. it gets tiring.

Very well. Regarding the latest discussion about the scream, it just seemed like a non-diegetic sound effect out of the many sound effects already present. It's true that people might not be able to notice the scream with the music on. However, I believe that it is just a singular sound effect that is meant to add to the whole.

It's like how we process events like movies, and shows; we mainly notice the big picture, one that is made out of many tiny little elements, but these pieces tend not to signify anything on their own. But when placed together, we get a full effect that we are unable to process individually, but the impact is made on a more subconscious level. So basically, just like others have been saying, I believe that it's just used for dramatic effect.

[paxxton]

SS2Dante wrote...

  

Here ya go.

EDIT - it's only hard to hear with the music on.

That's no child's scream. It's a sound of an eagle flying nearby.

[SS2Dante]

paxxton wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

  

Here ya go.

EDIT - it's only hard to hear with the music on.

That's no child's scream moon. It's a sound of an eagle flying nearby.

Edited for correctness

[Baldsake]

SS2Dante wrote...

Baldsake wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Baldsake wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Baldsake wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

I find it funny how the music cuts away the exact moment shep spots the kid. before that everything was normal.

There was no music in the video, that was the whole point... There have been some very solid hints at the IDT in this thread... The scream is not one of them.

I think he meant to say the ambient sound effects cut away at that moment, not the music. 

Oh, alright then.. Well there are some sound effects being played prior to the scream.. But yeah I honestly think that was for dramatic effect.

Then why is it hidden? This is the key point. You played with your levels adjusted so ok, but on normal levels you do not hear the scream (that you shouldn't be able to hear anyway, over explosions and all the other stuff going on). Some dramatic effect it is.

So can you really not hear it with default settings? Even if you pay close attention? I doubt that.. If so, however, it still doesn't really strike me as odd, because it may very well be a subliminal message/sound that adds to the atmosphere.. Anyway I've talked way too much about a small bit of audio lol.

If you're listening closely you can catch the tail end of the scream as it hits the ground, but that's it.

And fair enough. it just strikes me as incredibly odd that you should hear a scream of any kind from either shuttle, but *shrug* a lot of people seem to feel otherwise.

It's a videogame, videogames and movies love to romanticise scenes and situations by adding unrealistic things. I'm sure if we'd look at the ME series or any game series and break down extreme little details like this we'd be able to find a million things that are odd.

[Tirian Thorn]

Chris Readman wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

We accept that it is conjecture. However, I think the problem with your post is that it stated - as many do - that there are flaws in IT, yet you didn't cite any. People do this every day in this thread. it gets tiring.

Very well. Regarding the latest discussion about the scream, it just seemed like a non-diegetic sound effect out of the many sound effects already present. It's true that people might not be able to notice the scream with the music on. However, I believe that it is just a singular sound effect that is meant to add to the whole.

It's like how we process events like movies, and shows; we mainly notice the big picture, one that is made out of many tiny little elements, but these pieces tend not to signify anything on their own. But when placed together, we get a full effect that we are unable to process individually, but the impact is made on a more subconscious level. So basically, just like others have been saying, I believe that it's just used for dramatic effect.

That's the whole thing with IT and why I believe it's true. 

Taken individually the pieces "could" be dismissed as an error, a miscalculation, a mistake, etc.  But there are too many things that point towards IT that - to me - cannot be human error.  Again - to me - IT just makes sense of the ending as it stands.

Based on Bioware's track record, I am more inclined to believe this was planned out - perhaps not to perfection - rather than a colossal collection of errors and mistakes. 

Modifié par Tirian Thorn, 25 avril 2012 - 04:08 .

[balance5050]

About that gun again:

At the base of the conduit you can pull the trigger and fire it before it's even in your hand. The camera even focuses in on it while your standing up.

At the top of the conduit, they make sure to still show you picking it up, but you can't fire it until the cut scene is over.

Now when you reach the Star child convo, you don't have it, it's not on the ground, but your hand is clenched like you're holding it. It's not until the platforms are raised and you have to make a choice that it magically appears in your hand.

[Rifneno]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Not at all, check hundreds of posts back I was here almsot from the start and drop from week to week, I have both bashed and supported IT, I do not take sides, I rather see concrete proofs not speculations or I would go to a religion forum and discuss "beliefs" over facts, there.

Then get out. This place is for fans to discuss IT and related topics. We're free to speculate and theorize all we want. If we want to talk about a thought or idea that couldn't currently be proven in a court of law, we don't have to justify ourselves to people like you. If you don't like it, get out. I promise we won't miss one more self-superior quasi-troll that compares us to conspiracy nuts or zealots.

Ah.... thanks for proving my point "Beleive in what I say or get out", do you by any chance work as a religious councilor or something?

Dude, IT is NOT yours, you do NOT reppresent IT, you CANNOT tell me where to go or what to do... clear?

You want to speculate your points, I am here to poke holes in your logic, THIS is what forums are for.... if you cannot accept the normal usage of fourms then GET OUT.

Have you ever made a post without your "l0l u rigligus nut" trolling?  Even one?

[balance5050]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Not at all, check hundreds of posts back I was here almsot from the start and drop from week to week, I have both bashed and supported IT, I do not take sides, I rather see concrete proofs not speculations or I would go to a religion forum and discuss "beliefs" over facts, there.

Then get out. This place is for fans to discuss IT and related topics. We're free to speculate and theorize all we want. If we want to talk about a thought or idea that couldn't currently be proven in a court of law, we don't have to justify ourselves to people like you. If you don't like it, get out. I promise we won't miss one more self-superior quasi-troll that compares us to conspiracy nuts or zealots.

Ah.... thanks for proving my point "Beleive in what I say or get out", do you by any chance work as a religious councilor or something?

Dude, IT is NOT yours, you do NOT reppresent IT, you CANNOT tell me where to go or what to do... clear?

You want to speculate your points, I am here to poke holes in your logic, THIS is what forums are for.... if you cannot accept the normal usage of fourms then GET OUT.

FAIL

[DirtyPhoenix]

Ok so it turns out that the "scream" might not be what i thought, but what about the other oddity (starkid standing outside and then running inside as soon as shep closes in) ?

[Baldsake]

balance5050 wrote...

About that gun again:

At the base of the conduit you can pull the trigger and fire it before it's even in your hand. The camera even focuses in on it while your standing up.

At the top of the conduit, they make sure to still show you picking it up, but you can't fire it until the cut scene is over.

Now when you reach the Star child convo, you don't have it, it's not on the ground, but your hand is clenched like you're holding it. It's not until the platforms are raised and you have to make a choice that it magically appears in your hand.

Well to be fair the ME games always had glitchy gun animations in cutscenes (Shepard always seems to carry around guns he/she never uses).. I've read a lot of you guys' posts on this matter but again, IMO, it doesn't really have anything to do with the IT.. Other than shooting Andy, that is.

[Chris Readman]

Tirian Thorn wrote...

That's the whole thing with IT and why I believe it's true. 

Taken individually the pieces "could" be dismissed as an error, a miscalculation, a mistake, etc.  But there are too many things that point towards IT that - to me - cannot be human error.  Again - to me - IT just makes sense of the ending as it stands.

Based on Bioware's track record, I am more inclined to believe this was planned out - perhaps not to perfection - rather than a colossal collection or errors and mistakes. 

The problem with this line of argument is that we do not get the impact. Not at all untill someone proposes the possibility.

With the scream, we know the child is in there, we see the impact of the laser and shuttle crashing, we hear the appropriate sound effects. We are meant to be taken aback.

With the Indoctrination Theory, we have to manually gather the bits and pieces which are supposedly scattered throughout the game. It's not something that you could have noticed even if you paid attention, you only start noticing them when you start looking for them. There are possible prompts, such as Vega mentioning the hum, or even the tumbleweeds and trees appearing after Shepard gets blasted, but it seems a little too disparate to form a cohesive whole for me.

Modifié par Chris Readman, 25 avril 2012 - 04:16 .

[estebanus]

Chris Readman wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

We accept that it is conjecture. However, I think the problem with your post is that it stated - as many do - that there are flaws in IT, yet you didn't cite any. People do this every day in this thread. it gets tiring.

Very well. Regarding the latest discussion about the scream, it just seemed like a non-diegetic sound effect out of the many sound effects already present. It's true that people might not be able to notice the scream with the music on. However, I believe that it is just a singular sound effect that is meant to add to the whole.

It's like how we process events like movies, and shows; we mainly notice the big picture, one that is made out of many tiny little elements, but these pieces tend not to signify anything on their own. But when placed together, we get a full effect that we are unable to process individually, but the impact is made on a more subconscious level. So basically, just like others have been saying, I believe that it's just used for dramatic effect.

You know, whaen I read your comment about big pictures, I immediately thought of Mordin's comment:

"I mad a mistake. Focused on big picture! Big picture made of smaller pictures!"

[MadRabbit999]

Rifneno wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Not at all, check hundreds of posts back I was here almsot from the start and drop from week to week, I have both bashed and supported IT, I do not take sides, I rather see concrete proofs not speculations or I would go to a religion forum and discuss "beliefs" over facts, there.

Then get out. This place is for fans to discuss IT and related topics. We're free to speculate and theorize all we want. If we want to talk about a thought or idea that couldn't currently be proven in a court of law, we don't have to justify ourselves to people like you. If you don't like it, get out. I promise we won't miss one more self-superior quasi-troll that compares us to conspiracy nuts or zealots.

Ah.... thanks for proving my point "Beleive in what I say or get out", do you by any chance work as a religious councilor or something?

Dude, IT is NOT yours, you do NOT reppresent IT, you CANNOT tell me where to go or what to do... clear?

You want to speculate your points, I am here to poke holes in your logic, THIS is what forums are for.... if you cannot accept the normal usage of fourms then GET OUT.

Have you ever made a post without your "l0l u rigligus nut" trolling?  Even one?

Did you ever answered someone who disagrees with you without using the word Troll?

Thought so....

[SS2Dante]

Chris Readman wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

We accept that it is conjecture. However, I think the problem with your post is that it stated - as many do - that there are flaws in IT, yet you didn't cite any. People do this every day in this thread. it gets tiring.

Very well. Regarding the latest discussion about the scream, it just seemed like a non-diegetic sound effect out of the many sound effects already present. It's true that people might not be able to notice the scream with the music on. However, I believe that it is just a singular sound effect that is meant to add to the whole.

It's like how we process events like movies, and shows; we mainly notice the big picture, one that is made out of many tiny little elements, but these pieces tend not to signify anything on their own. But when placed together, we get a full effect that we are unable to process individually, but the impact is made on a more subconscious level. So basically, just like others have been saying, I believe that it's just used for dramatic effect.

The latest argument is deinitely an example of the smaller nitpicky stuff, none of which we claim (individually) to be proof of any kind. It's the sheer number of these things coupled with the rather more solid arguments around the ending that means a lot of us feel the odds of this being a coincidence are less than the odds of the reasons given.

Example - in the TIM scene at the end, you can plainly hear the dream whispers (though a lot of us, including me, didn't hear them in our first few playthroughs). Literally that implies that the whispers are conected to indoctrination .It's an odd choice. But whatever, we'll say it was them being lazy.

http://www.youtube.c...czhHtqgY#t=322s (the deep boom signals the start of the whispers)

In the same scene (a few moments after the previous link), the first cut we see of TIM you can hear the Catalyst DUM DUM. Again, it's an odd choice of music, considering they use in in the final scene when making you're heroic choice. But ok, again we'll say they're being lazy and had no dramatic effects left.

During the conversation TIM, in response to your claim that "controlling me is different from controlling a Reaper" and TIM responds with a rather mysterious "have a little faith". This doesn't fit at all because taken literally he is PLAINLY controlling you, and has no need to be coy about it. If you pick a renegade option you tell him to just open the arms and Control the Reapers, but he can't do it. When asked why, he says "Because I need you to believe!". But the writers have gone out of their way in this game to show TIM doesn't respect you any more, and certainly doesn't need your validation. But ok, we'll say the writers were bad and self-contradictory.

Now, if you save Anderson you gain an extra 1000 EMS. This is pointless, but I suppose we can say it's a bonus for...temporarily saving him after you shot him? Whatever. If you convince TIM to shoot himself, the requirements to get the "wake up" ending are dropped by 1000, to 4000. This makes even less sense, taken literally, since TIM has nothing to do with you waking up at the end. But whatever, the programmers were...lazy...?

There are a whole bunch more, both in the room leading up to theis scene (ghost keeper!) and in the scenes after (Never mind the odd framing of the bullet wound). But my point is, taken literally we're assuming that the sound design team were super lazy and BAD (contradicting their own themes) twice, the writers were bad, AND the programmers put in some extra conditions for the lulz. All in these scenes, but nowhere else in the game.

Combine this with the fact that IT clearly and simply explains all of these things, and you get far too many coincidences for me. 

[Rifneno]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Did you ever answered someone who disagrees with you without using the word Troll?

Thought so....

There's a really simply solution to get people to stop calling you a troll.  Stop trolling.