57139 réponses à ce sujet

[balance5050]

Baldsake wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

About that gun again:

At the base of the conduit you can pull the trigger and fire it before it's even in your hand. The camera even focuses in on it while your standing up.

At the top of the conduit, they make sure to still show you picking it up, but you can't fire it until the cut scene is over.

Now when you reach the Star child convo, you don't have it, it's not on the ground, but your hand is clenched like you're holding it. It's not until the platforms are raised and you have to make a choice that it magically appears in your hand.

Well to be fair the ME games always had glitchy gun animations in cutscenes (Shepard always seems to carry around guns he/she never uses).. I've read a lot of you guys' posts on this matter but again, IMO, it doesn't really have anything to do with the IT.. Other than shooting Andy, that is.

You must be new. We already know about the using different guns for cutscenes. But it you don't know why this specific gun is special then you need to go back and play ME2, particularly the Mordin stuff.

No place in any of the games are you able too pull the trigger for a cutscene unless it's a renegade action.

Even Legion tells you that he gives you a gun with never ending ammo in the Consensus mission because it is a "familiar tool".

So if you think that that gun, the same one that Anderson had directly before the conduit run, and then TIM pulls a DIFFERENT MODEL off of him, the same gun that Mordin gives you during ME 2, the same gun that you THROW AWAY in digust if you shoot mordin, has no symbolic meaning when it comes to the end, then you need to reevaluate what the ending means.

[DJBare]

SS2Dante wrote...

Why do you say it failed?

Because they have over 60'000 people telling them the ending is not acceptable as it stands?

[balance5050]

MadRabbit999 wrote...



Did you ever answered someone who disagrees with you without using the word Troll?

Thought so....

What are you doing in here? Did you have a questiopn about I.T.?

Modifié par balance5050, 25 avril 2012 - 04:25 .

[Uncle Jo]

Chris Readman wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

We accept that it is conjecture. However, I think the problem with your post is that it stated - as many do - that there are flaws in IT, yet you didn't cite any. People do this every day in this thread. it gets tiring.

Very well. Regarding the latest discussion about the scream, it just seemed like a non-diegetic sound effect out of the many sound effects already present. It's true that people might not be able to notice the scream with the music on. However, I believe that it is just a singular sound effect that is meant to add to the whole.

It's like how we process events like movies, and shows; we mainly notice the big picture, one that is made out of many tiny little elements, but these pieces tend not to signify anything on their own. But when placed together, we get a full effect that we are unable to process individually, but the impact is made on a more subconscious level. So basically, just like others have been saying, I believe that it's just used for dramatic effect.

You have to understand them. You're coming in the middle of discussion, with a -well worded- post (though a little bit condescending), stating your opinion which is based on generalities (Bioware has screwed up and so on) and calling them desperate, without even giving a solid counterargument... What are you expecting ?

The current debate is about a small and probably not relevant (if even true) hint. Even now, you're not playing fair, ignoring the whole context of the discussion, looking for the weakest spot, then trying to destroy it, in order to dismiss the complete theory...
The most solid arguments/clues of the IT are pretty much compiled in the FIRST page (and some others), but you have to read them first and then eventually address them. I would be personally very interested in hearing your comments...

[MadRabbit999]

[quote]Rifneno wrote...

[quote]MadRabbit999 wrote...

Did you ever answered someone who disagrees with you without using the word Troll?

Thought so....
[/quote]

There's a really simply solution to get people to stop calling you a troll.  Stop trolling.
[/quote]

Ah right. . I am trolling because I am mentioning that a lot of the things peaople here are saying makes no sense by backing up with arguments that do not get answered? Right... ok I am troll then.

Or maybe... just maybe... you answer a post just to insult me... bear with me on this one.. but maybe.. that makes you a troll?

I rather be a Troll than a douchebag who cannot take holes poked in their logics.

[quote]balance5050 wrote...

[quote]MadRabbit999 wrote...


Have you ever made a post without your "l0l u rigligus nut" trolling?  Even one?[/quote]

Did you ever answered someone who disagrees with you without using the word Troll?

Thought so....

[/quote]

What are you doing in here? Did you have a questiopn about I.T.?[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/blushing.png[/smilie]

[/quote]

[quote]MadRabbit999 wrote...



Also if IT is true, means that
Shepard needs to wake up and the story is not over, which means it needs
a new ending, which they already stated, they will not do so (Not
changing of the current ones, nor adding they said). And do you really
think they would finish a great saga without a real conclusion?



[/quote]

Modifié par MadRabbit999, 25 avril 2012 - 04:26 .

[Xavendithas]

Chris Readman wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...

That's the whole thing with IT and why I believe it's true. 

Taken individually the pieces "could" be dismissed as an error, a miscalculation, a mistake, etc.  But there are too many things that point towards IT that - to me - cannot be human error.  Again - to me - IT just makes sense of the ending as it stands.

Based on Bioware's track record, I am more inclined to believe this was planned out - perhaps not to perfection - rather than a colossal collection or errors and mistakes. 

The problem with this line of argument is that we do not get the impact. Not at all untill someone proposes the possibility.

With the scream, we know the child is in there, we see the impact of the laser and shuttle crashing, we hear the appropriate sound effects. We are meant to be taken aback.

With the Indoctrination Theory, we have to manually gather the bits and pieces which are supposedly scattered throughout the game. It's not something that you could have noticed even if you paid attention, you only start noticing them when you start looking for them. There are possible prompts, such as Vega mentioning the hum, or even the tumbleweeds and trees appearing after Shepard gets blasted, but it seems a little too disparate to form a cohesive whole for me.

My problem with the scene which I feel lends itself to the IT is that if you watch the video a couple of times, The scream, if that is what it is and not just white noise, comes from the shuttle that the child isn't on.

[ExtendedCut]

SS2Dante wrote...

ExtendedCut wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...



So let’s take it a step further then. 

Since Bioware knew that the ending would be polarizing isn’t it reasonable to assume that the ending as it stands was fully planned out?  I guess it depends on whether you think Bioware was lazy and put out a hastily thrown together ending to make money and save time  OR that they are the game designers that that have put out great games like Baldur’s Gate, Neverwinter Nights, KOTOR, Jade Empire,  and Dragon Age?

They’ve made some tremendous games over the years.  And for those that played KOTOR, remember the major plot twist? Did anyone see that coming?  I’d call BS if anyone says they did.  But when they explained it, the clues were always there for everyone to see, that’s what made it even better – that they left clues. 

So do you really think that the same company that brought us – in my opinion –the best plot twist since Vader fathered Luke are a bunch of incompetent money-grubbing half-wits or a just pulling of a massive plot twist? 

At first, I thought that Bioware was absolutely imcompetent and clueless for not anticipating this "uproar" and backlash about their ending to the ME trilogy.

But now, like you said, I have completely changed my mind.  I am on other forums more-so than this one, and I can say almost certainly that Bioware, the company, has NEVER had as much publicity as they have gotten in the last two months.  And, as they say, any publicity is good publicity.

Bioware might just turn out to be a bunch of geniouses...

The banner they released a few weeks ago intrigued me. 

"Mass Effect 3 - the most talked about game ending in years"

A lot of people were angry at PR for spinning it, but it strikes me as if they're proud of this.

Agreed. 

Is this "bad" ending just poor writing by a bunch of idiots?  Or will it end up being a calculated risk that results in Bioware's video game "stock" going through the roof, and becoming THE video game company that sets the next trend in gaming?

I guess we'll find out eventually...

[DJBare]

If either side cannot accept rebuttal of their argument and retaliate with things such as "troll"; then you are as bad as each other, it really is that simple.

Modifié par DJBare, 25 avril 2012 - 04:27 .

[balance5050]

Xavendithas wrote...


My problem with the scene which I feel lends itself to the IT is that if you watch the video a couple of times, The scream, if that is what it is and not just white noise, comes from the shuttle that the child isn't on.

And there it is. now I have to replay that scene for myself.

Modifié par balance5050, 25 avril 2012 - 04:28 .

[The Captainator]

balance5050 wrote...

About that gun again:

At the base of the conduit you can pull the trigger and fire it before it's even in your hand. The camera even focuses in on it while your standing up.

At the top of the conduit, they make sure to still show you picking it up, but you can't fire it until the cut scene is over.

Now when you reach the Star child convo, you don't have it, it's not on the ground, but your hand is clenched like you're holding it. It's not until the platforms are raised and you have to make a choice that it magically appears in your hand.

An interesting thing about game development is something called "Known Shippable".  This is when a bug is found but because of time constraints and risk of fixing the issue causing new ones they decide to not fix it and leave it in the game because it really has a very minor effect, if anything, beyond just a little visual glitch.

Most games have 10-15% of the bugs found in it KS'd.  That's a lot of bugs.  As a QA Tester myself I'm seeing many bugs reported in this thread and considered as proof of the theory.

[Baldsake]

balance5050 wrote...

Baldsake wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

About that gun again:

At the base of the conduit you can pull the trigger and fire it before it's even in your hand. The camera even focuses in on it while your standing up.

At the top of the conduit, they make sure to still show you picking it up, but you can't fire it until the cut scene is over.

Now when you reach the Star child convo, you don't have it, it's not on the ground, but your hand is clenched like you're holding it. It's not until the platforms are raised and you have to make a choice that it magically appears in your hand.

Well to be fair the ME games always had glitchy gun animations in cutscenes (Shepard always seems to carry around guns he/she never uses).. I've read a lot of you guys' posts on this matter but again, IMO, it doesn't really have anything to do with the IT.. Other than shooting Andy, that is.

You must be new. We already know about the using different guns for cutscenes. But it you don't know why this specific gun is special then you need to go back and play ME2, particularly the Mordin stuff.

No place in any of the games are you able too pull the trigger for a cutscene unless it's a renegade action.

Even Legion tells you that he gives you a gun with never ending ammo in the Consensus mission because it is a "familiar tool".

So if you think that that gun, the same one that Anderson had directly before the conduit run, and then TIM pulls a DIFFERENT MODEL off of him, the same gun that Mordin gives you during ME 2, the same gun that you THROW AWAY in digust if you shoot mordin, has no symbolic meaning when it comes to the end, then you need to reevaluate what the ending means.

No need to get hipster on me. I'm not new and I know of all these things, which is why I said, and I quote: ''
I've read a lot of you guys' posts on this matter'' ... IMO this whole gun thing is the definition of 'grasping at straws' which, by the way, is completely unnecessary given the legit hints/clues you guys gathered.

Modifié par Baldsake, 25 avril 2012 - 04:29 .

[n00bsauce2010]

Do we have a recording of this scene without music? I lent me3 to my brother.. so I'm in a rather odd position.

[SS2Dante]

DJBare wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Why do you say it failed?

Because they have over 60'000 people telling them the ending is not acceptable as it stands?

Is this assuming or not assuming IT? Because if we're assuming IT then we haven't got any possible measurement of what the reaction will be (except a rather measured pace from"I don't want dlc endings!" to "I want a dlc ending!"). Just seems a bit premature to call it a failure (assuming IT)

[balance5050]

Again, I want to point out that When Anderson dies, he isn't bleeding at all. Meanwhile Shepard is gushing everywhere.

[Xavendithas]

[quote]n00bsauce2010 wrote...

Do we have a recording of this scene without music? I lent me3 to my brother.. so I'm in a rather odd position.[/quote

[balance5050]

SS2Dante wrote...

DJBare wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Why do you say it failed?

Because they have over 60'000 people telling them the ending is not acceptable as it stands?

Is this assuming or not assuming IT? Because if we're assuming IT then we haven't got any possible measurement of what the reaction will be (except a rather measured pace from"I don't want dlc endings!" to "I want a dlc ending!"). Just seems a bit premature to call it a failure (assuming IT)

Yep, if they do the EC right, a lot of the bad memories of this game will fade away.

[Big G13]

estebanus wrote...

Chris Readman wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

We accept that it is conjecture. However, I think the problem with your post is that it stated - as many do - that there are flaws in IT, yet you didn't cite any. People do this every day in this thread. it gets tiring.

Very well. Regarding the latest discussion about the scream, it just seemed like a non-diegetic sound effect out of the many sound effects already present. It's true that people might not be able to notice the scream with the music on. However, I believe that it is just a singular sound effect that is meant to add to the whole.

It's like how we process events like movies, and shows; we mainly notice the big picture, one that is made out of many tiny little elements, but these pieces tend not to signify anything on their own. But when placed together, we get a full effect that we are unable to process individually, but the impact is made on a more subconscious level. So basically, just like others have been saying, I believe that it's just used for dramatic effect.

You know, whaen I read your comment about big pictures, I immediately thought of Mordin's comment:

"I mad a mistake. Focused on big picture! Big picture made of smaller pictures!"

NICE. 

[Xavendithas]

balance5050 wrote...

Again, I want to point out that When Anderson dies, he isn't bleeding at all. Meanwhile Shepard is gushing everywhere.

That part doesn't bother me as much as the center of the room had raised up for Anderson to lean against suddenly without anyone noticing.

[ExtendedCut]

MadRabbit999 wrote...


Also if IT is true, means that
Shepard needs to wake up and the story is not over, which means it needs
a new ending, which they already stated, they will not do so (Not
changing of the current ones, nor adding they said). And do you really
think they would finish a great saga without a real conclusion?

For the ten millionth time in this thread - IT does NOT require a new ending.  It requires a continuation of the ending that we were given.

If IT is true (and it depends on every different person's opinion on what "really" is and is not happening on-board the Citadel) then they will likely need to explain the actual ending of how the Reapers are defeated.  In real life.  Not in Shepard's mind.

But again, that doesn't mean that they need to delete the indoctrination part of the story - so I don't see how IT would require a "new" ending.

[n00bsauce2010]

What noise or no white noise. that is pretty awesome. Isn't white noise a way of indoctrinating? or am I grasping at straws. Very cool nonetheless.

[balance5050]

Baldsake wrote...

No need to get hipster on me. I'm not new and I know of all these things, which is why I said, and I quote: ''
I've read a lot of you guys' posts on this matter'' ... IMO this whole gun thing is the definition of 'grasping at straws' which, by the way, is completely unnecessary given the legit hints/clues you guys gathered.

As others have explained though, sometimess an amalgamation of smaller clues can pull weight just like a single, stronger clue.

I believe the gun holds a lot of credence considering the symbolism of "Shepards gun" as demonstrated by the Geth Consensus alone.

Also explains why the gun has infinite ammo even though it is a modern model.

[Chris Readman]

SS2Dante wrote...

Example - in the TIM scene at the end, you can plainly hear the dream whispers (though a lot of us, including me, didn't hear them in our first few playthroughs). Literally that implies that the whispers are conected to indoctrination .It's an odd choice. But whatever, we'll say it was them being lazy.

http://www.youtube.c...czhHtqgY#t=322s (the deep boom signals the start of the whispers)

In the same scene (a few moments after the previous link), the first cut we see of TIM you can hear the Catalyst DUM DUM. Again, it's an odd choice of music, considering they use in in the final scene when making you're heroic choice. But ok, again we'll say they're being lazy and had no dramatic effects left.

During the conversation TIM, in response to your claim that "controlling me is different from controlling a Reaper" and TIM responds with a rather mysterious "have a little faith". This doesn't fit at all because taken literally he is PLAINLY controlling you, and has no need to be coy about it. If you pick a renegade option you tell him to just open the arms and Control the Reapers, but he can't do it. When asked why, he says "Because I need you to believe!". But the writers have gone out of their way in this game to show TIM doesn't respect you any more, and certainly doesn't need your validation. But ok, we'll say the writers were bad and self-contradictory.

Now, if you save Anderson you gain an extra 1000 EMS. This is pointless, but I suppose we can say it's a bonus for...temporarily saving him after you shot him? Whatever. If you convince TIM to shoot himself, the requirements to get the "wake up" ending are dropped by 1000, to 4000. This makes even less sense, taken literally, since TIM has nothing to do with you waking up at the end. But whatever, the programmers were...lazy...?

There are a whole bunch more, both in the room leading up to theis scene (ghost keeper!) and in the scenes after (Never mind the odd framing of the bullet wound). But my point is, taken literally we're assuming that the sound design team were super lazy and BAD (contradicting their own themes) twice, the writers were bad, AND the programmers put in some extra conditions for the lulz. All in these scenes, but nowhere else in the game.

Combine this with the fact that IT clearly and simply explains all of these things, and you get far too many coincidences for me. 

For the sound effects, I wouldn't say lazy, in fact, I'd even say that they're using
appropriate sound effects. The whispers can be used to signal a form of control, just by TIM.

I did not qute understand the claim about the "have a little faith" comment. Why can it not be a simple comment? His desire for Shepard to have faith is not in his ability to control humans, but in his ability to control the reapers, something of a larger scale.

"Because I need you to believe" can show how fragile TIM is in his current state. He may pretend to not require Shepard's validation, but he is still not confident enough to control a reaper. After all, everyone can see that controlling a reaper and a human are completely different things. And as confident as TIM likes to protray himself to be, he should be aware on some level how large of a leap he has to make. It's not self-contradictory, it shows that TIM is human.

Regarding the EMS, I don't know what to say about that. But I must say that I do not see how this supports the Indoctrination Theory. It seems like a normal requirement (albeit steep) to try to do everything right in order to get the "best" ending.

These are just my intepretations of the design decisions. The developers may not have been lazy at this point, but hey, to be fair, I would say that I thought the linear route to the device and Anderson reaching there before you were development shortcuts. And people have cited these to be pieces of evidence for the Indoctrination Theory.

[SS2Dante]

The Captainator wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

About that gun again:

At the base of the conduit you can pull the trigger and fire it before it's even in your hand. The camera even focuses in on it while your standing up.

At the top of the conduit, they make sure to still show you picking it up, but you can't fire it until the cut scene is over.

Now when you reach the Star child convo, you don't have it, it's not on the ground, but your hand is clenched like you're holding it. It's not until the platforms are raised and you have to make a choice that it magically appears in your hand.

An interesting thing about game development is something called "Known Shippable".  This is when a bug is found but because of time constraints and risk of fixing the issue causing new ones they decide to not fix it and leave it in the game because it really has a very minor effect, if anything, beyond just a little visual glitch.

Most games have 10-15% of the bugs found in it KS'd.  That's a lot of bugs.  As a QA Tester myself I'm seeing many bugs reported in this thread and considered as proof of the theory.

Applied for a QA job a few days ago  Any tips in case I need to apply again?

You might be able to shed light on the matter of the keeper you can entirely walk through in the "collector base" corridor. Glitch? I can't really see how having it's clipping turned on would be a risky fix but *shrug*

[ExtendedCut]

DJBare wrote...

If either side cannot accept rebuttal of their argument and retaliate with things such as "troll"; then you are as bad as each other, it really is that simple.

Agreed.  If either side has valid, civilized arguements, then it should be enbraced and allowed.  What should not be allowed are two things: IT supporters saying GTFO to another poster just for disbelieving in IT; and anti-IT posters coming in here to call the IT supporters names.  Just IMO - I know I don't have many posts on this forum.

[balance5050]

Xavendithas wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Again, I want to point out that When Anderson dies, he isn't bleeding at all. Meanwhile Shepard is gushing everywhere.

That part doesn't bother me as much as the center of the room had raised up for Anderson to lean against suddenly without anyone noticing.

That too! So the shifting walls are there for your comfort!? They shift according to thought patterns.