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[ExtendedCut]

SubAstris wrote...

ExtendedCut wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

A question to IT theorists who think that Arrival was a significant part of indoctrination, or even the start of it proper. If BW's artistic vision was to take Shepard throughout the trilogy on a process of indoctrination, why wasn't Arrival put in the actual game given its alleged massive importance, to the great disadvantage of those who haven't got internet/can't afford it/won't pay etc? Instead, Arrival was DLC, which as we all know usually supplements the main plot, not necessarily to continue to it.

Considering that the whole opening sequence of ME3 was based on the crimes Shepard committed during "Arrival", I would say that it was a little more important than "supplemental".

I always thought that his detainment was due to his involvement with Cerberus, who are considered as a terrorist group by the Citadel Council and the Alliance. To save face, the Alliance brought in Shepard , the "rogue" operative. Also the Alliance by this time realises that the Reaper threat is real and need Shepard's expertise

To be honest, I'm not sure how it works in Bioware's mind, then.  Bioware has stated many itmes that Arrival was the bridge between ME2 and ME3, but I guess I didn't realize that story was completely different if you didn't play Arrival.  Not sure how that affects IT, then.

[llbountyhunter]

SubAstris wrote...

ExtendedCut wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

A question to IT theorists who think that Arrival was a significant part of indoctrination, or even the start of it proper. If BW's artistic vision was to take Shepard throughout the trilogy on a process of indoctrination, why wasn't Arrival put in the actual game given its alleged massive importance, to the great disadvantage of those who haven't got internet/can't afford it/won't pay etc? Instead, Arrival was DLC, which as we all know usually supplements the main plot, not necessarily to continue to it.

Considering that the whole opening sequence of ME3 was based on the crimes Shepard committed during "Arrival", I would say that it was a little more important than "supplemental".

I always thought that his detainment was due to his involvement with Cerberus, who are considered as a terrorist group by the Citadel Council and the Alliance. To save face, the Alliance brought in Shepard , the "rogue" operative. Also the Alliance by this time realises that the Reaper threat is real and need Shepard's expertise

if you do arrival, anderson specifically mentions the batarian colony.

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

A question to IT theorists who think that Arrival was a significant part of indoctrination, or even the start of it proper. If BW's artistic vision was to take Shepard throughout the trilogy on a process of indoctrination, why wasn't Arrival put in the actual game given its alleged massive importance, to the great disadvantage of those who haven't got internet/can't afford it/won't pay etc? Instead, Arrival was DLC, which as we all know usually supplements the main plot, not necessarily to continue to it.

Did you play Arrival? They released while already in production for ME3. They stressed that it was supposed to be a bridge between ME2 and 3, LOTS OF WEIRD INDOCTRINATION STUFF HAPPENS AND SHEP IS THE ONLY ONE WHO SEES IT. If you would just put your money where your mouth is you would see why it's so weird, especially when Harbinger apears at the end in a yellow holographic form with no COMM equipment around as it was THE SURFACE OF AN ASTEROID.

Basically you are walking down the road to saying that "The Arrival" wasn't canon, and that would lead back to interpretation.

I am sure lots of other DLC was co-produced with the following game. At face-value, Arrival has echoes of ME3 since the Reapers are about to attack, which is a change from ME2 when focus has been mainly about the Reapers.

"Harbinger apears at the end in a yellow holographic form with no COMM equipment around as it was THE SURFACE OF AN ASTEROID"- Are you implying that that bit of Arrival is not real?

[balance5050]

bigstig wrote...

ExtendedCut wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

A question to IT theorists who think that Arrival was a significant part of indoctrination, or even the start of it proper. If BW's artistic vision was to take Shepard throughout the trilogy on a process of indoctrination, why wasn't Arrival put in the actual game given its alleged massive importance, to the great disadvantage of those who haven't got internet/can't afford it/won't pay etc? Instead, Arrival was DLC, which as we all know usually supplements the main plot, not necessarily to continue to it.

Considering that the whole opening sequence of ME3 was based on the crimes Shepard committed during "Arrival", I would say that it was a little more important than "supplemental".

Arrivial isn't cannon for Shepard, the events did happen but if the player didn't do them then somebody else did. Same with LotSB if Shepard didn't do it someone else did. 

If you did play arrival then you are stripped of the command for working with Ceberus in ME2, mutiny in ME1, releasing the rachni queen etc take your pick, many of your actions are pretty awful in the grand scheme of things. It is also assumed that Miranda leaves Cerberus which confused the hell out of me as I never saw this scence so was a little surprised when she turned in in ME3 with no explination of what happened.

You did not just say that Arrival isn't canon. "Fist" of all, just because something is DLC doesn't mean it isn't canon, it just means that "your Shepard" didn't do as much as "My Shepard". The complete or "ultimate" Shepard is the canon one.

By your logic Zaeed, Kasumi and Javik aren't "canon" either.

Modifié par balance5050, 25 avril 2012 - 08:33 .

[paxxton]

SubAstris wrote...

[...] why wasn't Arrival put in the actual game given its alleged massive importance, [...]

The business model of DLC-based game development has nothing to do with the importance of the story fragments contained within DLC. In other words, your question is irrelevant to explaining IT. Signing out.

Modifié par paxxton, 25 avril 2012 - 08:37 .

[Naseilen]

ExtendedCut wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

A question to IT theorists who think that Arrival was a significant part of indoctrination, or even the start of it proper. If BW's artistic vision was to take Shepard throughout the trilogy on a process of indoctrination, why wasn't Arrival put in the actual game given its alleged massive importance, to the great disadvantage of those who haven't got internet/can't afford it/won't pay etc? Instead, Arrival was DLC, which as we all know usually supplements the main plot, not necessarily to continue to it.

Considering that the whole opening sequence of ME3 was based on the crimes Shepard committed during "Arrival", I would say that it was a little more important than "supplemental".

"Arrival is not compatible with Polish, Czech or Hungarian versions of Mass Effect 2."
...that was unfair, we officially weren't able to buy it!

[schneeland]

llbountyhunter wrote...

[...]

if you do arrival, anderson specifically mentions the batarian colony.

Which also makes more sense, since Shepard's involvement with Cerberus was known before that event and no one bothered to put him before court.

[llbountyhunter]

ExtendedCut wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

ExtendedCut wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

A question to IT theorists who think that Arrival was a significant part of indoctrination, or even the start of it proper. If BW's artistic vision was to take Shepard throughout the trilogy on a process of indoctrination, why wasn't Arrival put in the actual game given its alleged massive importance, to the great disadvantage of those who haven't got internet/can't afford it/won't pay etc? Instead, Arrival was DLC, which as we all know usually supplements the main plot, not necessarily to continue to it.

Considering that the whole opening sequence of ME3 was based on the crimes Shepard committed during "Arrival", I would say that it was a little more important than "supplemental".

I always thought that his detainment was due to his involvement with Cerberus, who are considered as a terrorist group by the Citadel Council and the Alliance. To save face, the Alliance brought in Shepard , the "rogue" operative. Also the Alliance by this time realises that the Reaper threat is real and need Shepard's expertise

To be honest, I'm not sure how it works in Bioware's mind, then.  Bioware has stated many itmes that Arrival was the bridge between ME2 and ME3, but I guess I didn't realize that story was completely different if you didn't play Arrival.  Not sure how that affects IT, then.

I think arrival functions kinda like the books- they contain alot of useful and sometimes critical information..... and EA probably wanted more money.

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 25 avril 2012 - 08:39 .

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

A question to IT theorists who think that Arrival was a significant part of indoctrination, or even the start of it proper. If BW's artistic vision was to take Shepard throughout the trilogy on a process of indoctrination, why wasn't Arrival put in the actual game given its alleged massive importance, to the great disadvantage of those who haven't got internet/can't afford it/won't pay etc? Instead, Arrival was DLC, which as we all know usually supplements the main plot, not necessarily to continue to it.

Did you play Arrival? They released while already in production for ME3. They stressed that it was supposed to be a bridge between ME2 and 3, LOTS OF WEIRD INDOCTRINATION STUFF HAPPENS AND SHEP IS THE ONLY ONE WHO SEES IT. If you would just put your money where your mouth is you would see why it's so weird, especially when Harbinger apears at the end in a yellow holographic form with no COMM equipment around as it was THE SURFACE OF AN ASTEROID.

Basically you are walking down the road to saying that "The Arrival" wasn't canon, and that would lead back to interpretation.

I am sure lots of other DLC was co-produced with the following game. At face-value, Arrival has echoes of ME3 since the Reapers are about to attack, which is a change from ME2 when focus has been mainly about the Reapers.

"Harbinger apears at the end in a yellow holographic form with no COMM equipment around as it was THE SURFACE OF AN ASTEROID"- Are you implying that that bit of Arrival is not real?

No, I'm saying that Habinger was speaking to you through means other than COMM Units. I'm saying he might have been talking stright to you through electroagnetic fields, and perhaps ulrosonic noises as well.

[DJBare]

balance5050 wrote... If you would just put your money where your mouth is you would see why it's so weird, especially when Harbinger apears at the end in a yellow holographic form with no COMM equipment around as it was THE SURFACE OF AN ASTEROID.

So what exactly did Shepard use to contact the Normandy for pick up?

[Tirian Thorn]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

The ending suggests Shepard is having a near-death experience, not just simply your standard dream or hallucination.  Immediately prior to this, Shepard appeared to be on the verge of death.  Some of these factors don't seem to come into play, but many of them do.  Considering these are common traits of an NDE, the in-game evidence strongly points to NDE.

Straight from Wikipedia:
The traits of a classical NDE are as follows:

• A sense/awareness of being dead.[19][21]
• A sense of peace, well-being and painlessness. Positive emotions. A sense of removal from the world.[19][21][22]
• An out-of-body experience.
  A perception of one's body from an outside position. Sometimes
  observing doctors and nurses performing medical resuscitation efforts.[19][21][22][23]
• A "tunnel experience". A sense of moving up, or through, a passageway or staircase.[19][21][23]
• A rapid movement toward and/or sudden immersion in a powerful light. Communication with the light.[21][22]
• An intense feeling of unconditional love.[22]
• Encountering "Beings of Light", "Beings dressed in white", or
  similar. Also, the possibility of being reunited with deceased loved
  ones.[19][22][23]
• Receiving a life review.[19][21][22]
• Receiving a "life preview" in the cases of George Ritchie and Betty Eadie, which Ring calls an NDE "Flash Forward".
• Receiving knowledge about one's life and the nature of the universe.[22]
• A decision by oneself or others to return to one's body, often accompanied by a reluctance to return.[19][22][23]
• Approaching a border.[21]
• The notice of unpleasant sound or noise (claimed by R. Moody).[10]
• Connection to the cultural beliefs held by the individual, which
  seem to dictate the phenomena experienced in the NDE and the later
  interpretation thereof (Holden, Janice Miner. Handbook of Near-Death
  Experiences. Library of Congress Cataloging in Publishing Data, 2009.).

Kenneth Ring (1980) subdivided the NDE on a five-stage continuum. The subdivisions were:[24]

• Peace
• Body separation
• Entering darkness
• Seeing the light
• Entering the light

Where does Shepard get the sense/awareness of being dead or a sense of peace or a feeling of unconditional love?   

[balance5050]

Naseilen wrote...

ExtendedCut wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

A question to IT theorists who think that Arrival was a significant part of indoctrination, or even the start of it proper. If BW's artistic vision was to take Shepard throughout the trilogy on a process of indoctrination, why wasn't Arrival put in the actual game given its alleged massive importance, to the great disadvantage of those who haven't got internet/can't afford it/won't pay etc? Instead, Arrival was DLC, which as we all know usually supplements the main plot, not necessarily to continue to it.

Considering that the whole opening sequence of ME3 was based on the crimes Shepard committed during "Arrival", I would say that it was a little more important than "supplemental".

"Arrival is not compatible with Polish, Czech or Hungarian versions of Mass Effect 2."
...that was unfair, we officially weren't able to buy it!

Yeah, it sucks. But you can't play Diablo 3 without a constant internet connection so there's boo hoo's to go around.

I can't play the Dragon Ball MMO, so there.

[balance5050]

DJBare wrote...

balance5050 wrote... If you would just put your money where your mouth is you would see why it's so weird, especially when Harbinger apears at the end in a yellow holographic form with no COMM equipment around as it was THE SURFACE OF AN ASTEROID.

So what exactly did Shepard use to contact the Normandy for pick up?

An earpeice is implanted directly into the ear, and his omni tool.

[llbountyhunter]

Tirian Thorn wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

The ending suggests Shepard is having a near-death experience, not just simply your standard dream or hallucination.  Immediately prior to this, Shepard appeared to be on the verge of death.  Some of these factors don't seem to come into play, but many of them do.  Considering these are common traits of an NDE, the in-game evidence strongly points to NDE.

Straight from Wikipedia:
The traits of a classical NDE are as follows:

• A sense/awareness of being dead.[19][21]
• A sense of peace, well-being and painlessness. Positive emotions. A sense of removal from the world.[19][21][22]
• An out-of-body experience.
  A perception of one's body from an outside position. Sometimes
  observing doctors and nurses performing medical resuscitation efforts.[19][21][22][23]
• A "tunnel experience". A sense of moving up, or through, a passageway or staircase.[19][21][23]
• A rapid movement toward and/or sudden immersion in a powerful light. Communication with the light.[21][22]
• An intense feeling of unconditional love.[22]
• Encountering "Beings of Light", "Beings dressed in white", or
  similar. Also, the possibility of being reunited with deceased loved
  ones.[19][22][23]
• Receiving a life review.[19][21][22]
• Receiving a "life preview" in the cases of George Ritchie and Betty Eadie, which Ring calls an NDE "Flash Forward".
• Receiving knowledge about one's life and the nature of the universe.[22]
• A decision by oneself or others to return to one's body, often accompanied by a reluctance to return.[19][22][23]
• Approaching a border.[21]
• The notice of unpleasant sound or noise (claimed by R. Moody).[10]
• Connection to the cultural beliefs held by the individual, which
  seem to dictate the phenomena experienced in the NDE and the later
  interpretation thereof (Holden, Janice Miner. Handbook of Near-Death
  Experiences. Library of Congress Cataloging in Publishing Data, 2009.).

Kenneth Ring (1980) subdivided the NDE on a five-stage continuum. The subdivisions were:[24]

• Peace
• Body separation
• Entering darkness
• Seeing the light
• Entering the light

Where does Shepard get the sense/awareness of being dead or a sense of peace or a feeling of unconditional love?   

not everyone with a nde experiences ALL the things described... just like not everone has the same reaction to medicine... but the fact that around 75% are in there... 

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 25 avril 2012 - 08:45 .

[balance5050]

Tirian Thorn wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

The ending suggests Shepard is having a near-death experience, not just simply your standard dream or hallucination.  Immediately prior to this, Shepard appeared to be on the verge of death.  Some of these factors don't seem to come into play, but many of them do.  Considering these are common traits of an NDE, the in-game evidence strongly points to NDE.

Straight from Wikipedia:
The traits of a classical NDE are as follows:

• A sense/awareness of being dead.[19][21]
• A sense of peace, well-being and painlessness. Positive emotions. A sense of removal from the world.[19][21][22]
• An out-of-body experience.
  A perception of one's body from an outside position. Sometimes
  observing doctors and nurses performing medical resuscitation efforts.[19][21][22][23]
• A "tunnel experience". A sense of moving up, or through, a passageway or staircase.[19][21][23]
• A rapid movement toward and/or sudden immersion in a powerful light. Communication with the light.[21][22]
• An intense feeling of unconditional love.[22]
• Encountering "Beings of Light", "Beings dressed in white", or
  similar. Also, the possibility of being reunited with deceased loved
  ones.[19][22][23]
• Receiving a life review.[19][21][22]
• Receiving a "life preview" in the cases of George Ritchie and Betty Eadie, which Ring calls an NDE "Flash Forward".
• Receiving knowledge about one's life and the nature of the universe.[22]
• A decision by oneself or others to return to one's body, often accompanied by a reluctance to return.[19][22][23]
• Approaching a border.[21]
• The notice of unpleasant sound or noise (claimed by R. Moody).[10]
• Connection to the cultural beliefs held by the individual, which
  seem to dictate the phenomena experienced in the NDE and the later
  interpretation thereof (Holden, Janice Miner. Handbook of Near-Death
  Experiences. Library of Congress Cataloging in Publishing Data, 2009.).

Kenneth Ring (1980) subdivided the NDE on a five-stage continuum. The subdivisions were:[24]

• Peace
• Body separation
• Entering darkness
• Seeing the light
• Entering the light

Where does Shepard get the sense/awareness of being dead or a sense of peace or a feeling of unconditional love?   

[*]"I feel like death, but I'm moving"

[SubAstris]

[/quote]

No, I'm saying that Habinger was speaking to you through means other than COMM Units. I'm saying he might have been talking stright to you through electroagnetic fields, and perhaps ulrosonic noises as well.

[/quote]

That's true, but is that really weird, and even if it is, weird enough to show evidence for IT?

[Tirian Thorn]

Tirian Thorn wrote...


[*]

Where does Shepard get the sense/awareness of being dead or a sense of peace or a feeling of unconditional love?   

The beam was already on - so of course he'd be headed towards a white light. 

He wasn't reunited with any loved ones.  In fact he shoots Anderson - someone he highly respects. 
There wasn't a life review.  And if since he only possibly lives if you pick destroy with a high EMS - what's the point of showing Shepard a life preview if he's dead? 

If you pick Control/Synthesis Shepard's body is destroyed.  In those instances where is the feeling to return to ones body? 

[llbountyhunter]

DJBare wrote...

balance5050 wrote... If you would just put your money where your mouth is you would see why it's so weird, especially when Harbinger apears at the end in a yellow holographic form with no COMM equipment around as it was THE SURFACE OF AN ASTEROID.

So what exactly did Shepard use to contact the Normandy for pick up?

 I think they were within radio distance.

[DJBare]

balance5050 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

balance5050 wrote... If you would just put your money where your mouth is you would see why it's so weird, especially when Harbinger apears at the end in a yellow holographic form with no COMM equipment around as it was THE SURFACE OF AN ASTEROID.

So what exactly did Shepard use to contact the Normandy for pick up?

An earpeice is implanted directly into the ear, and his omni tool.

www.youtube.com/watch

External comm channel open.

Modifié par DJBare, 25 avril 2012 - 08:48 .

[Tirian Thorn]

[quote]balance5050 wrote...


[*]
[/quote]

[*]"I feel like death, but I'm moving"[/quote]

I'm not totally discounting this, but have you ever been so sore that you didn't want to move but had to?

First time I ever went snowboarding I couldn't move for 2 days without pain.

When I swam in college I would regularly be so tired after practice that I could barely move.  (After swimming 10 miles in a day.)  I felt like death after that...  I certainly wasn't having a near death experience, but I had thoughts of providing one to my coach. 

[llbountyhunter]

DJBare wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

balance5050 wrote... If you would just put your money where your mouth is you would see why it's so weird, especially when Harbinger apears at the end in a yellow holographic form with no COMM equipment around as it was THE SURFACE OF AN ASTEROID.

So what exactly did Shepard use to contact the Normandy for pick up?

An earpeice is implanted directly into the ear, and his omni tool.

www.youtube.com/watch

External comm channel open.

lol at the top comment in the video.   

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 25 avril 2012 - 08:48 .

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

That's true, but is that really weird, and even if it is, weird enough to show evidence for IT?

Well, considering  "electroagnetic fields, and perhaps ulrosonic noises as well" is basically what indoctrination is I would say yes!

From Wiki-

"The precise mechanics of the indoctrination effect are poorly understood. It is believed that the Reapers generate an electromagnetic field, waves of infrasound and ultrasound, or both in order to stimulate areas of a victim's brain and limbic system. The resulting effect varies depending on the intent of the Reaper: the victim may suffer headaches and hallucinations, have feelings of "being watched" or paranoia, or come to view the Reaper itself with superstitious awe."

Modifié par balance5050, 25 avril 2012 - 08:49 .

[Tirian Thorn]

llbountyhunter wrote...

DJBare wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

balance5050 wrote... If you would just put your money where your mouth is you would see why it's so weird, especially when Harbinger apears at the end in a yellow holographic form with no COMM equipment around as it was THE SURFACE OF AN ASTEROID.

So what exactly did Shepard use to contact the Normandy for pick up?

An earpeice is implanted directly into the ear, and his omni tool.

www.youtube.com/watch

External comm channel open.

lol at the top comment in the video.   

Agreed.  A helmet cam would have saved Shepard a lot of trouble. 

[Skillz1986]

I'd bett my ass on the war room scanner, being the indoctrination device

just kidding though...i'm bored.

But think about it..you go through that thing a billion times.


Man would it be weak if they made that thing an indoc device

[llbountyhunter]

[quote]Tirian Thorn wrote...

[quote]balance5050 wrote...


[*]
[/quote]

[*]"I feel like death, but I'm moving"[/quote]

I'm not totally discounting this, but have you ever been so sore that you didn't want to move but had to?

First time I ever went snowboarding I couldn't move for 2 days without pain.

When I swam in college I would regularly be so tired after practice that I could barely move.  (After swimming 10 miles in a day.)  I felt like death after that...  I certainly wasn't having a near death experience, but I had thoughts of providing one to my coach.  [/quote]         [*]
[*]
[*]shepards not a whiner though (not saying that you are...) and this is his first time showing verbal signs of fealing dead.

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 25 avril 2012 - 08:52 .