pirate1802 wrote...
Yeah desperation is what I thought, his chat with Shepard after her meeting with the council indicated as such. But wasn't Executor Palin killed earlier, by Bailey?
Maybe it was Pallin Jr.? His son?
Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory
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byne
, mars 10 2012 12:46
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#44076
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:26
Lokanaiya
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Maybe it was Pallin Jr.? His son?
Retour en haut
#44077
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:29
DirtyPhoenix
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Lokanaiya wrote...
pirate1802 wrote...
Yeah desperation is what I thought, his chat with Shepard after her meeting with the council indicated as such. But wasn't Executor Palin killed earlier, by Bailey?
Maybe it was Pallin Jr.? His son?
Its a shame Palin got killed, I liked that guy back in ME1, even though he didn't like me lol.
#44078
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:34
HellishFiend
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By the way guys, I was watching my sister play LotSB earlier, and I noticed the "electric discharge" sounds in and around the Shadow Broker ship sound almost identical to the ones you hear in the control room (very apparent when the music cuts out after TIM and Anderson collapse).
Not sure if I'd be inclined to lean one way or the other as far as whether this was intentional or not. We generally accept that all visual elements from the post-Harbinger's beam sequence are from Shepard's mind, but what if the sounds are, too? Does anyone know of any sounds in the "dream sequence" that are unique and cant be traced back to an earlier part in the trilogy?
Not sure if I'd be inclined to lean one way or the other as far as whether this was intentional or not. We generally accept that all visual elements from the post-Harbinger's beam sequence are from Shepard's mind, but what if the sounds are, too? Does anyone know of any sounds in the "dream sequence" that are unique and cant be traced back to an earlier part in the trilogy?
#44079
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:35
Lokanaiya
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pirate1802 wrote...
Lokanaiya wrote...
pirate1802 wrote...
Yeah desperation is what I thought, his chat with Shepard after her meeting with the council indicated as such. But wasn't Executor Palin killed earlier, by Bailey?
Maybe it was Pallin Jr.? His son?
Its a shame Palin got killed, I liked that guy back in ME1, even though he didn't like me lol.
Agreed. I'd kind of liked to see how he reacted to Garrus' character development and Captain Bailey.
Guess it's going to have to go on the list of wasted opportunities, along with Lorik Quin and Emily Wong.
#44080
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:39
byne
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Lokanaiya wrote...
pirate1802 wrote...
Lokanaiya wrote...
pirate1802 wrote...
Yeah desperation is what I thought, his chat with Shepard after her meeting with the council indicated as such. But wasn't Executor Palin killed earlier, by Bailey?
Maybe it was Pallin Jr.? His son?
Its a shame Palin got killed, I liked that guy back in ME1, even though he didn't like me lol.
Agreed. I'd kind of liked to see how he reacted to Garrus' character development and Captain Bailey.
Guess it's going to have to go on the list of wasted opportunities, along with Lorik Quin and Emily Wong.
The Emily Wong one pisses me off so much.
Bioware decided we needed a reporter on board who was romanceable, and it WASNT Emily Wong?
Instead we get Allers, and Wong dies on Twitter?
Man, if Emily Wong was romanceable she might even have shaken my unwavering devotion to Liara...
#44081
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:46
DirtyPhoenix
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Allers is waste of resources. She doesn't even look good and the VA is terrible. Makes me wanna cry. If the ending turns out to be what we are seeing now (that is, non-IT) then I cant believe Bioware wasted resources on crap characters and MP and gave us that ending. Really.
#44083
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:54
Rifneno
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I didn't even know Emily Wong died until I read this thread. That sucks. Reapers I assume?
Also, I used save editor to fix a flag in Jacob's loyalty mission (it wasn't properly flagging his father's fate). Sent him to jail. Jacob mentions where he wound up: a prison in Vancouver. Vancouver. Given that we got Morinth's return as a banshee if you spared her (WHY!), I have to wonder if Ronald Taylor the husk was ever on the table at some point. And then I chuckle.
Of course, no discussion of wasted opportunities with characters would be complete without this name: Armistan Banes.
Also, I used save editor to fix a flag in Jacob's loyalty mission (it wasn't properly flagging his father's fate). Sent him to jail. Jacob mentions where he wound up: a prison in Vancouver. Vancouver. Given that we got Morinth's return as a banshee if you spared her (WHY!), I have to wonder if Ronald Taylor the husk was ever on the table at some point. And then I chuckle.
Of course, no discussion of wasted opportunities with characters would be complete without this name: Armistan Banes.
#44084
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:55
byne
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Rosewind wrote...
What Happened to Emily Wong?
She was killed on Twitter.
They were doing a thing where it was basically like she was live-tweeting during the initial stages of the Reaper invasion of Earth.
Kinda reminiscent of the War of the Worlds radio drama thing.
Anyways, she kamikaze'd a Reaper with her skycar and died.
#44085
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:57
DTKT
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Emily Wong died during a pre-release event on Twitter. Basically, an account was created for the "Alliance News Network"(AAN). During that even, a PR member posing as Emily Wong did a "live" event where Wong tweeted what was happening during the invasion.
Then, at some point, as the situation on Earth was deteriorating, they decided that it was fitting for Wong to crash her flying car into a Reaper.
She is now dead and we have Diana Allers to replace her. I wish I could throw her out of the airlock.
Then, at some point, as the situation on Earth was deteriorating, they decided that it was fitting for Wong to crash her flying car into a Reaper.
She is now dead and we have Diana Allers to replace her. I wish I could throw her out of the airlock.
#44086
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:57
byne
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Rifneno wrote...
I didn't even know Emily Wong died until I read this thread. That sucks. Reapers I assume?
Also, I used save editor to fix a flag in Jacob's loyalty mission (it wasn't properly flagging his father's fate). Sent him to jail. Jacob mentions where he wound up: a prison in Vancouver. Vancouver. Given that we got Morinth's return as a banshee if you spared her (WHY!), I have to wonder if Ronald Taylor the husk was ever on the table at some point. And then I chuckle.
Of course, no discussion of wasted opportunities with characters would be complete without this name: Armistan Banes.
Scroll down until you get to the very first March 5th post in the twitter feed, then read upwards from there.
Its a pretty interesting read.
I remember I was following it live, was a pretty cool experience.
I was actually worried about Emily the entire time.
#44087
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 05:01
Rosewind
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Ahhh that blows she would of been awesome o have a around was looking forward to her News segments.
#44088
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 05:05
Macross
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Okay, so this has nothing to do with anything really. But I wanted to say it but not start a new thread about it.
But... On the topic of Space Magic. I just finished watching Gundam 00 (series and movie) and I have to say. If you're going to use Space Magic, that's how you use space magic. It should be used to send an idealistic message about hope and peace (and stuff) and achieve a happy ending. Not to literally screw up the galaxy.
But... On the topic of Space Magic. I just finished watching Gundam 00 (series and movie) and I have to say. If you're going to use Space Magic, that's how you use space magic. It should be used to send an idealistic message about hope and peace (and stuff) and achieve a happy ending. Not to literally screw up the galaxy.
#44089
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 05:07
Raistlin Majare 1992
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Quick thought I had:
Anyone else find it curoius that out of all three games, ME3´s ending is the only one in which you dont have a squad with you right up until then end.
It might just be to heighten the drama by making it Shepard alone who pushes through on that final stretch, but when you consider that you had a squad with you when facing of against Sovreign and the Reaper larva I dont really see why one should remove that now...
Off course except for the fact that it would not fit in the litteral (or IT part) ending, but still worth noting I think.
Anyone else find it curoius that out of all three games, ME3´s ending is the only one in which you dont have a squad with you right up until then end.
It might just be to heighten the drama by making it Shepard alone who pushes through on that final stretch, but when you consider that you had a squad with you when facing of against Sovreign and the Reaper larva I dont really see why one should remove that now...
Off course except for the fact that it would not fit in the litteral (or IT part) ending, but still worth noting I think.
#44090
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 05:15
Raistlin Majare 1992
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BatmanTurian wrote...
Rifneno wrote...
Earthborn_Shepard wrote...
dude I'm in a class with 20 male IT nerds, there's nothing I haven't heard
so no
though Ashley is hotter
Helllllllllll no. Miranda > Ashley by leaps and bounds. Though both of them have such a mental capacity that I think it would be technically legal to use them for lab experiments instead of rats. Not very bright, either one of them. Like a 4 watt lightbulb painted black.
Also, ME1 or ME3 Ashley? ME3 Ashley wasn't bad. Not in Miranda's league, but not bad. ME1 Ashley I didn't care for in the least.ExtendedCut wrote...
I always thought Liara was super-hot, but then the back of her neck kinda weirded me out...
Most of Liara weirded me out. For an alien, she's way too human. Okay I'm sure it's asari in general, but Liara is the only one we see... more of, which is why I'm saying Liara in particular I guess. I mean it was already weird how the body structure was almost exactly human female except for the hair, but when you see her undressed you can see the muscle and bone structure is pretty much exactly the same too. Like the way her shoulders move.
To be honest I was always kind of hoping there'd be an explanation for why so many species are humanoid. Like that the Reapers or the Protheans genetically engineered different species. But I could at least believe that "stands upright, two legs, two arms" was just kind of standard evolution for intelligent species. But damn the asari have so much in common with humans physically. Too much, IMO, to be random chance. Kind of disappointed there didn't turn out to be more to it.
Oh Christ, Golferguy is breaking out the Phoenix Wright pictures again. Quick, what's the MIRV launch codes?!
Supposedly, the Asari do some kind of subconcious low-level mind control so that they appear as females of the species looking at them i.e. : Humans will see human faces, Salarians see Salarians, Turians see Turians, etc. This is heavily hinted in Mass Effect 2 ( I think in the club on Illium ) where a human and Turian are hosting a bachelor party for a Salarian that doesn't understand bachelor parties. The Turian is only there for the booze. The asari Maiden is dancing on their table on her knees. At any rate, during the conversation, they all realize they are seeing the Asari's face differently.
Actually in regards to the humanoid part, dosent Jarvik mention that the Protheans studied potential species for their empire and nudged those promising towards the right path?
#44091
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 05:25
Rifneno
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Hmm. That Wong twitter feed was very good. Interesting and did a good job of capturing the horror. Two things I think bear noting though.
1. Some people have noted Mordin's "new type of Reaper" and wondered if destroyers hadn't really been seen before Tuchanka, indicating that perhaps the one that shot down the shuttle with Harbi--err, the "kid" on it wasn't really there. And in retrospect, it did seem odd that no one paid attention to a Reaper right there before it opened fire. Anyway, we can put that theory to rest I suppose, as Wong was clearly describing a destroyer as the thing on the 405 freeway.
2. The Reapers can't block but can track QEC? This is news. And significant IMO. QEC is how Anderson was keeping in touch. Implications... unpleasant.
1. Some people have noted Mordin's "new type of Reaper" and wondered if destroyers hadn't really been seen before Tuchanka, indicating that perhaps the one that shot down the shuttle with Harbi--err, the "kid" on it wasn't really there. And in retrospect, it did seem odd that no one paid attention to a Reaper right there before it opened fire. Anyway, we can put that theory to rest I suppose, as Wong was clearly describing a destroyer as the thing on the 405 freeway.
2. The Reapers can't block but can track QEC? This is news. And significant IMO. QEC is how Anderson was keeping in touch. Implications... unpleasant.
#44092
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 05:32
byne
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Huh, just did the last Rannoch mission.
Picked the renegade option when talking to the Reaper for once.
Shep said: "This time the organics are taking control" or something to that effect, and the Reaper was all:
"A philosophy reminiscent of the quarians. Observe their efforts to maintain contr-"
That was when the renegade interrupt appeared and I took it, but I kinda wish I hadnt.
Was a freaking Reaper itself about to tell me Control isnt the answer?
Picked the renegade option when talking to the Reaper for once.
Shep said: "This time the organics are taking control" or something to that effect, and the Reaper was all:
"A philosophy reminiscent of the quarians. Observe their efforts to maintain contr-"
That was when the renegade interrupt appeared and I took it, but I kinda wish I hadnt.
Was a freaking Reaper itself about to tell me Control isnt the answer?
#44093
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 05:36
Raistlin Majare 1992
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byne wrote...
Huh, just did the last Rannoch mission.
Picked the renegade option when talking to the Reaper for once.
Shep said: "This time the organics are taking control" or something to that effect, and the Reaper was all:
"A philosophy reminiscent of the quarians. Observe their efforts to maintain contr-"
That was when the renegade interrupt appeared and I took it, but I kinda wish I hadnt.
Was a freaking Reaper itself about to tell me Control isnt the answer?
Could someone confirm this? Because a Reaper talking against control is pretty big wrench in Starbrats cogs.
#44094
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 06:24
HellishFiend
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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
byne wrote...
Huh, just did the last Rannoch mission.
Picked the renegade option when talking to the Reaper for once.
Shep said: "This time the organics are taking control" or something to that effect, and the Reaper was all:
"A philosophy reminiscent of the quarians. Observe their efforts to maintain contr-"
That was when the renegade interrupt appeared and I took it, but I kinda wish I hadnt.
Was a freaking Reaper itself about to tell me Control isnt the answer?
Could someone confirm this? Because a Reaper talking against control is pretty big wrench in Starbrats cogs.
In the face value interpretation, I'd question whether or not the Reapers are even aware that someone is pulling their strings.
#44095
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 06:36
WinterCrow
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WinterCrow wrote...
Okay, it's literally impossible to properly follow this thread. Miss one day and you have over 50 pages to read, stop reading like a madman the next day and you might get 100 unread pages.
But whatever, it's the first time I try to comment here cause every time I had something I could say I would go to the next page and find it already commented. I'm tired of browsing and reading this time, so I might be repeating something someone already mentioned.
Anyway, some pages ago you were talking about Anderson at the panel without a gun and TIM getting some gun from him few moments later. And it came to my mind... How come TIM, as smart as he is, and apparently in control of boht Anderson and you, and actually ABLE to make you shoot him, walks into your ****ing line of fire to grab a weapon, makes his only cover kneel and exposes a clear shot instead of making you ****ing shoot again? Isn't it utterly retarded?
Bad writing of course, Bioware is lazy.
Oh and apologies for any mistake I might make while writing, my english is getting rusty...
Bumping this, since everybody seemed to ignore due to a character hotness debate. ¿Any thoughts? I really think that behavior is way too stupid to be true. The way the situation is told, he could've perfectly killed both Anderson and Shepard without breaking a sweat, yet he does what he does.
#44096
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 06:57
Arian Dynas
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One of my bigass catch up posts people, how are ya?
Feeling like crap, got a headache, wanna lie down, can't gotta do work.
Being a doubting Thomas about IT, but not for any real reason, just that sense of looming dread. Might be the headache/depression talking. Taking happy pills.
Bury me in new evidence and a positive public statement from Bioware so I can feel all warm and fuzzy.
kthanxbai
[quote]n00bsauce2010 wrote...
[quote]Earthborn_Shepard wrote...
you know what this thread needs? More Kaidan butt
[/quote]
Most of us on this thread are men though
[/quote]
But some could be gay! So it's alright in the end.
[quote]n00bsauce2010 wrote...
[quote]Earthborn_Shepard wrote...
dude I'm in a class with 20 male IT nerds, there's nothing I haven't heard
so no
though Ashley is hotter [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/happy.png[/smilie]
[/quote]
lol. I think many would disagree with that.
[/quote]
Not me.
Miranda's hot too though.
[/quote]
[quote]liggy002 wrote...
Gamble said on his twitter that he doesn't think that the Red ending is the best ending. I hope he's a fan of the Reapers, otherwise I'm pissed if this implies that the IT is untrue.[/quote]
There's the other theory that the Rachni Queen is involved heavily if you saved her, acting as a sort of saving grace for players who picked control or Synthesis.
He might simply prefer the cameraderie.
Or perhaps he likes to see one in which Shepard goes out in a blaze of Glory. It doesn't really come down to which is the "best" ending here, merely what he likes best.
[quote]HellishFiend wrote...
I dont think Udina was ever indoctrinated. I just think his actions were a result of poor values and judgement. [/quote]
Just so.
[quote]NotAnotherDisplayName wrote...
[quote]balance5050 wrote...
What I'm gathering from this is that they removed the "blocking volumes" on purpose, because EVERY KEEPER HAS IT to begin with.
[/quote]
Kind of? If you're in Unreal the model can in fact have a default value, but in a real world production environment that model may never get the default set correctly. Meaning every time you drop a keeper (or other object into the game) in there you have to manually set the values. Without seeing their defect/bug database or their editor and asset library you can't know for certain.[/quote]
Yes, but these are the same models they have been usng since game one. The textures are the only things that seem to have been changed on the Keepers.
[quote]balance5050 wrote...
[quote]ExtendedCut wrote...
[quote]balance5050 wrote...
[quote]Sero303 wrote...
If Bioware had planned all this from the beginning:
-the subtle hints throughout the game
-the seemingly terrible, plothole riddled ending
-the hordes of anger fans decending into rage filled fits of anger and feelings of betrayal to hype it up
-the 'playing innocent/stupid'
- and finally releasing the DLC explaining how Shepard was indoctrinated and the ending was really a battle of wits
Than I think we can all agree, if they had planned this all out ( IF IF IF ) than I believe that would constitute the great PR campaign / promotion ever!
[/quote]
Yep, if I.T. is true then Bioware has the biggest balls of all the game companies, and they win the internet.
If they are wrong however, it's the biggest blunder in gaming history and they effectivley destroyed most of their fanbase.
[/quote]
I personally would even be happy if IT was NOT true, but Bioware did some kind of totally different twist that no one has even touched on yet. As long as it explained everything.
But, if the 4chan "leak" was real (we now know that it wasn't), or even close to real, and Bioware just explains how the crew got back to the Normandy and what they end up doing on Magic Tropical Planet, then I agree that this blunder will be hard to live down for Bioware.
[/quote]
First of all, I really don't see them pulling of anything better then IT and not "change" the ending. I really don't think it's possible for them to think of a twist as good as IT.
About those "leaks"; there was only one that partially came true and it was "The Truth", the multiplayer aspect came true "except for playable Protheans". It predicted the multiplayer "expansion" and said it was going to be free. The other part of the post said that there was going to be a free single player aspect that allowed Shep to wake up no matter what color he chose, it was supposed to be released along with the resurgence pack (according to the leak)
[/quote]
I've said this before, I'll say it again, Resurgence was leaked seperately, the next day the leak showed up on 4chan. the text was added there.
[quote]The Captainator wrote...
Oh, so the problem is you can walk through the Keeper? I misunderstood [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]
I'm just thinking they removed it so you wouldn't have to deal with bumping in to it in the small corridor. Didn't want to deter from the feel of the moment.
[/quote]
If that's the case, isn't simplier to just remove the Keeper entirely? Nothing to get hung up on, no weird-ass ghost Keeper, nothing really lost from the scene...
[quote]spotlessvoid wrote...
I just love how people come in here, tell us we are wrong, contribute nothing, and then complain when they get the troll treatment. You people run us off the other threads when we bring up IDT, so this is where we all gather. If you aren't here for genuine analysis and debate then go find another forum.
I mean SERIOUSLY! Grow up.
Name of the thread is "Was the ending a hallucination? -Indoctrination Theory"
If you think the answer is no, then great, go find something else to do. Leave us to our naive/stupid/crazy/obsessive/childish/fanatic/etc (did I miss anything?) speculations.
Examples of trollin:
"you're wrong"
"you're conspiracy nuts"
"you're like religious fanatics"
"you're grasping at straws"
"still here?"
Non trollin examples :
" I disagree with X because Y"[/quote]
I'll disagree with "You're wrong" if they can provide a reason why that ISN'T an opinon. Otherwise...
[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...
[quote]SubAstris wrote...
Why should unsupported assertions be thought of as "evidence"?
[/quote]
I'm sick of your unsupported assertions! *PUNCH!*
[/quote]
...
I WILL MAKE THIS A MEME GODDAMN IT!
[quote]HellishFiend wrote...
[quote]Tirian Thorn wrote...
So let’s take it a step further then.
Since Bioware knew that the ending would be polarizing isn’t it reasonable to assume that the ending as it stands was fully planned out? I guess it depends on whether you think Bioware was lazy and put out a hastily thrown together ending to make money and save time OR that they are the game designers that that have put out great games like Baldur’s Gate, Neverwinter Nights, KOTOR, Jade Empire, and Dragon Age?
They’ve made some tremendous games over the years. And for those that played KOTOR, remember the major plot twist? Did anyone see that coming? I’d call BS if anyone says they did. But when they explained it, the clues were always there for everyone to see, that’s what made it even better – that they left clues.
So do you really think that the same company that brought us – in my opinion –the best plot twist since Vader fathered Luke are a bunch of incompetent money-grubbing half-wits or a just pulling of a massive plot twist? [/quote]
I think people are angry and failing to give Bioware their well-deserved benefit of the doubt because the only two possibilities are that either the ending sucks or we have an incomplete game. In that regard, the anger is justified. In my humble opinion, having an incomplete game at this point in time is well worth the experience of having been fooled the way we were, and getting to unravel the mystery and unwrap the truth as it gets revealed.
That being said, I'm sure Bioware expected the ending as it stands to be polarizing, but I think they underestimated the amount of anger it would incite. I also think that wanting to buy themselves more time to craft the "real" ending was a major factor in doing it the way they did.
Its common knowledge that they originally wanted the final indoctrination sequence to be a gameplay mechanic. If it was, however, they would have had no excuse to leave out the "real" ending and ensuing epilogue/closure scenes. It's possible that the lack of time to put those scenes together was a factor in deciding to drop the gameplay version of the Indoctrination sequence and go with the Player Indoctrination/Fake Ending sequence that we apparently have now.
[/quote]
^ This
[quote]Xavendithas wrote...
[quote]Sammuthegreat wrote...
That child's scream really is weird. It's close enough to inaudible that in all the times I've seen that cutscene, which is quite a few now, I picked up absolutely no trace of it whatsoever. Now I know it's there, I can hear it, but it's so low in the mix that you wouldn't notice it if you weren't listening for it.
I don't think it directly adds strength to the IT (there's enough other stuff that does that plenty well enough) but it pretty much guarantees, for me, that there's something up with that kid. Not all is as it seems. But then again we knew that already, given that BioWare tweets have pretty much confirmed he's lying through his stupid little teeth.
Come to think of it, a lot of the kid's behaviour in that scene doesn't make sense. Firstly he's staring straight at Shepard over a distance of several hundred metres - it's impressive enough he recognised him at that distance, but to hold his gaze in such a composed manner when there's a several-hundred-metres-tall reaper closing in from behind is ridiculous for a young child. It'd be ridiculous for MacGyver.
Then when he breaks his gaze with Shepard, he suddenly looks panicked. As though he's remembered how a child is supposed to behave in this situation.
Lastly when he scrambles on board, he pulls a weird pose when he stands up and looks back at Shepard. It's almost a challenging pose, nothing like what I'd expect from a petrified child.
I get that this is most likely reading too far into things, but if you actually pay any attention to the child's behaviour, it simply doesn't make any sense. Not only is it horribly inconsistent with what a real child would do, but it's actually internally consistent too, considering how he breaks from calm to panicked to challenging on a whim.[/quote]
Ugh, I went back to watch it and I hadn't noticed how....defiant(?) he seem to look when he gets on the shuttle. He certainly seems to be staring down Shepard. Almost as if he is reminding Shephard of what he just said a little bit ago while hiding in that duct. The bit about how no one could help him, or w/e it was. I'm too lazy to look up the dialogue of the scene. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]
[/quote]
And one important point.
This is a videogame, meaning it's completely computer generated.
Further meaning, there are no artifacts left by the "actor", anything that is there is either a mistake, (statistically unlikely) or placed there by the designer. In other words, everything has an intention.
[quote]HellishFiend wrote...
[quote]spotlessvoid wrote...
I have repeatedly seen people compare this to an "it was all just a dream" ending/retcon, but I think the huge difference is that indoctrination is such a primary part of the story that it's just wrong to claim it breaks the narrative by coming out of nowhere and invalidating everything. If anything, it's actually the natural progression of the story. Why wouldn't Harbinger attempt to weaken and indoctrinate Shepard? [/quote]
Exactly. This isnt Dallas where the creators decide to make an entire season a dream so they can retcon a dead character back into the show. This isnt LOST where the story suddenly abandons plot and lore in favor of character driven narrative. Indoctrination is a constant, looming, ever-present danger in the mass effect storyline, and I know if the end goal was to attempt to cause the PLAYER to become indoctrinated in addition to Shepard, everything they have done up to this point has served that purpose perfectly. That includes the complete absence of Harbinger as well as the contents of the "dream" sequences and other "apparent plot holes".[/quote]
And this is the reason we follow this theory.
[quote]Rifneno wrote...
[quote]SS2Dante wrote...
The idea is that the Reaper IFF is Reaper tech so broadcasting the low level indoctrination to the ship. Hence the hum. Presumably people haven't been on the ship long enough to feel the effects.
[/quote]
An IFF is software. Or at least, a code. Not saying it COULDN'T be the IFF, but I doubt it is.[/quote]
Actually, watch for it in the mission, the Reaper IFF is a physical item roughly the size of a VHS tape, going by comparison.
Feeling like crap, got a headache, wanna lie down, can't gotta do work.
Being a doubting Thomas about IT, but not for any real reason, just that sense of looming dread. Might be the headache/depression talking. Taking happy pills.
Bury me in new evidence and a positive public statement from Bioware so I can feel all warm and fuzzy.
kthanxbai
[quote]n00bsauce2010 wrote...
[quote]Earthborn_Shepard wrote...
you know what this thread needs? More Kaidan butt
[/quote]
Most of us on this thread are men though
[/quote]
But some could be gay! So it's alright in the end.
[quote]n00bsauce2010 wrote...
[quote]Earthborn_Shepard wrote...
dude I'm in a class with 20 male IT nerds, there's nothing I haven't heard
so no
though Ashley is hotter [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/happy.png[/smilie]
[/quote]
lol. I think many would disagree with that.
[/quote]
Not me.
Miranda's hot too though.
[/quote]
[quote]liggy002 wrote...
Gamble said on his twitter that he doesn't think that the Red ending is the best ending. I hope he's a fan of the Reapers, otherwise I'm pissed if this implies that the IT is untrue.[/quote]
There's the other theory that the Rachni Queen is involved heavily if you saved her, acting as a sort of saving grace for players who picked control or Synthesis.
He might simply prefer the cameraderie.
Or perhaps he likes to see one in which Shepard goes out in a blaze of Glory. It doesn't really come down to which is the "best" ending here, merely what he likes best.
[quote]HellishFiend wrote...
I dont think Udina was ever indoctrinated. I just think his actions were a result of poor values and judgement. [/quote]
Just so.
[quote]NotAnotherDisplayName wrote...
[quote]balance5050 wrote...
What I'm gathering from this is that they removed the "blocking volumes" on purpose, because EVERY KEEPER HAS IT to begin with.
[/quote]
Kind of? If you're in Unreal the model can in fact have a default value, but in a real world production environment that model may never get the default set correctly. Meaning every time you drop a keeper (or other object into the game) in there you have to manually set the values. Without seeing their defect/bug database or their editor and asset library you can't know for certain.[/quote]
Yes, but these are the same models they have been usng since game one. The textures are the only things that seem to have been changed on the Keepers.
[quote]balance5050 wrote...
[quote]ExtendedCut wrote...
[quote]balance5050 wrote...
[quote]Sero303 wrote...
If Bioware had planned all this from the beginning:
-the subtle hints throughout the game
-the seemingly terrible, plothole riddled ending
-the hordes of anger fans decending into rage filled fits of anger and feelings of betrayal to hype it up
-the 'playing innocent/stupid'
- and finally releasing the DLC explaining how Shepard was indoctrinated and the ending was really a battle of wits
Than I think we can all agree, if they had planned this all out ( IF IF IF ) than I believe that would constitute the great PR campaign / promotion ever!
[/quote]
Yep, if I.T. is true then Bioware has the biggest balls of all the game companies, and they win the internet.
If they are wrong however, it's the biggest blunder in gaming history and they effectivley destroyed most of their fanbase.
[/quote]
I personally would even be happy if IT was NOT true, but Bioware did some kind of totally different twist that no one has even touched on yet. As long as it explained everything.
But, if the 4chan "leak" was real (we now know that it wasn't), or even close to real, and Bioware just explains how the crew got back to the Normandy and what they end up doing on Magic Tropical Planet, then I agree that this blunder will be hard to live down for Bioware.
[/quote]
First of all, I really don't see them pulling of anything better then IT and not "change" the ending. I really don't think it's possible for them to think of a twist as good as IT.
About those "leaks"; there was only one that partially came true and it was "The Truth", the multiplayer aspect came true "except for playable Protheans". It predicted the multiplayer "expansion" and said it was going to be free. The other part of the post said that there was going to be a free single player aspect that allowed Shep to wake up no matter what color he chose, it was supposed to be released along with the resurgence pack (according to the leak)
[/quote]
I've said this before, I'll say it again, Resurgence was leaked seperately, the next day the leak showed up on 4chan. the text was added there.
[quote]The Captainator wrote...
Oh, so the problem is you can walk through the Keeper? I misunderstood [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]
I'm just thinking they removed it so you wouldn't have to deal with bumping in to it in the small corridor. Didn't want to deter from the feel of the moment.
[/quote]
If that's the case, isn't simplier to just remove the Keeper entirely? Nothing to get hung up on, no weird-ass ghost Keeper, nothing really lost from the scene...
[quote]spotlessvoid wrote...
I just love how people come in here, tell us we are wrong, contribute nothing, and then complain when they get the troll treatment. You people run us off the other threads when we bring up IDT, so this is where we all gather. If you aren't here for genuine analysis and debate then go find another forum.
I mean SERIOUSLY! Grow up.
Name of the thread is "Was the ending a hallucination? -Indoctrination Theory"
If you think the answer is no, then great, go find something else to do. Leave us to our naive/stupid/crazy/obsessive/childish/fanatic/etc (did I miss anything?) speculations.
Examples of trollin:
"you're wrong"
"you're conspiracy nuts"
"you're like religious fanatics"
"you're grasping at straws"
"still here?"
Non trollin examples :
" I disagree with X because Y"[/quote]
I'll disagree with "You're wrong" if they can provide a reason why that ISN'T an opinon. Otherwise...
[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...
[quote]SubAstris wrote...
Why should unsupported assertions be thought of as "evidence"?
[/quote]
I'm sick of your unsupported assertions! *PUNCH!*
[/quote]
...
I WILL MAKE THIS A MEME GODDAMN IT!
[quote]HellishFiend wrote...
[quote]Tirian Thorn wrote...
So let’s take it a step further then.
Since Bioware knew that the ending would be polarizing isn’t it reasonable to assume that the ending as it stands was fully planned out? I guess it depends on whether you think Bioware was lazy and put out a hastily thrown together ending to make money and save time OR that they are the game designers that that have put out great games like Baldur’s Gate, Neverwinter Nights, KOTOR, Jade Empire, and Dragon Age?
They’ve made some tremendous games over the years. And for those that played KOTOR, remember the major plot twist? Did anyone see that coming? I’d call BS if anyone says they did. But when they explained it, the clues were always there for everyone to see, that’s what made it even better – that they left clues.
So do you really think that the same company that brought us – in my opinion –the best plot twist since Vader fathered Luke are a bunch of incompetent money-grubbing half-wits or a just pulling of a massive plot twist? [/quote]
I think people are angry and failing to give Bioware their well-deserved benefit of the doubt because the only two possibilities are that either the ending sucks or we have an incomplete game. In that regard, the anger is justified. In my humble opinion, having an incomplete game at this point in time is well worth the experience of having been fooled the way we were, and getting to unravel the mystery and unwrap the truth as it gets revealed.
That being said, I'm sure Bioware expected the ending as it stands to be polarizing, but I think they underestimated the amount of anger it would incite. I also think that wanting to buy themselves more time to craft the "real" ending was a major factor in doing it the way they did.
Its common knowledge that they originally wanted the final indoctrination sequence to be a gameplay mechanic. If it was, however, they would have had no excuse to leave out the "real" ending and ensuing epilogue/closure scenes. It's possible that the lack of time to put those scenes together was a factor in deciding to drop the gameplay version of the Indoctrination sequence and go with the Player Indoctrination/Fake Ending sequence that we apparently have now.
[/quote]
^ This
[quote]Xavendithas wrote...
[quote]Sammuthegreat wrote...
That child's scream really is weird. It's close enough to inaudible that in all the times I've seen that cutscene, which is quite a few now, I picked up absolutely no trace of it whatsoever. Now I know it's there, I can hear it, but it's so low in the mix that you wouldn't notice it if you weren't listening for it.
I don't think it directly adds strength to the IT (there's enough other stuff that does that plenty well enough) but it pretty much guarantees, for me, that there's something up with that kid. Not all is as it seems. But then again we knew that already, given that BioWare tweets have pretty much confirmed he's lying through his stupid little teeth.
Come to think of it, a lot of the kid's behaviour in that scene doesn't make sense. Firstly he's staring straight at Shepard over a distance of several hundred metres - it's impressive enough he recognised him at that distance, but to hold his gaze in such a composed manner when there's a several-hundred-metres-tall reaper closing in from behind is ridiculous for a young child. It'd be ridiculous for MacGyver.
Then when he breaks his gaze with Shepard, he suddenly looks panicked. As though he's remembered how a child is supposed to behave in this situation.
Lastly when he scrambles on board, he pulls a weird pose when he stands up and looks back at Shepard. It's almost a challenging pose, nothing like what I'd expect from a petrified child.
I get that this is most likely reading too far into things, but if you actually pay any attention to the child's behaviour, it simply doesn't make any sense. Not only is it horribly inconsistent with what a real child would do, but it's actually internally consistent too, considering how he breaks from calm to panicked to challenging on a whim.[/quote]
Ugh, I went back to watch it and I hadn't noticed how....defiant(?) he seem to look when he gets on the shuttle. He certainly seems to be staring down Shepard. Almost as if he is reminding Shephard of what he just said a little bit ago while hiding in that duct. The bit about how no one could help him, or w/e it was. I'm too lazy to look up the dialogue of the scene. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]
[/quote]
And one important point.
This is a videogame, meaning it's completely computer generated.
Further meaning, there are no artifacts left by the "actor", anything that is there is either a mistake, (statistically unlikely) or placed there by the designer. In other words, everything has an intention.
[quote]HellishFiend wrote...
[quote]spotlessvoid wrote...
I have repeatedly seen people compare this to an "it was all just a dream" ending/retcon, but I think the huge difference is that indoctrination is such a primary part of the story that it's just wrong to claim it breaks the narrative by coming out of nowhere and invalidating everything. If anything, it's actually the natural progression of the story. Why wouldn't Harbinger attempt to weaken and indoctrinate Shepard? [/quote]
Exactly. This isnt Dallas where the creators decide to make an entire season a dream so they can retcon a dead character back into the show. This isnt LOST where the story suddenly abandons plot and lore in favor of character driven narrative. Indoctrination is a constant, looming, ever-present danger in the mass effect storyline, and I know if the end goal was to attempt to cause the PLAYER to become indoctrinated in addition to Shepard, everything they have done up to this point has served that purpose perfectly. That includes the complete absence of Harbinger as well as the contents of the "dream" sequences and other "apparent plot holes".[/quote]
And this is the reason we follow this theory.
[quote]Rifneno wrote...
[quote]SS2Dante wrote...
The idea is that the Reaper IFF is Reaper tech so broadcasting the low level indoctrination to the ship. Hence the hum. Presumably people haven't been on the ship long enough to feel the effects.
[/quote]
An IFF is software. Or at least, a code. Not saying it COULDN'T be the IFF, but I doubt it is.[/quote]
Actually, watch for it in the mission, the Reaper IFF is a physical item roughly the size of a VHS tape, going by comparison.
Modifié par Arian Dynas, 26 avril 2012 - 07:07 .
#44097
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 07:08
Auralius Carolus
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- Members
- 1 424 messages
WinterCrow wrote...
WinterCrow wrote...
Okay, it's literally impossible to properly follow this thread. Miss one day and you have over 50 pages to read, stop reading like a madman the next day and you might get 100 unread pages.
But whatever, it's the first time I try to comment here cause every time I had something I could say I would go to the next page and find it already commented. I'm tired of browsing and reading this time, so I might be repeating something someone already mentioned.
Anyway, some pages ago you were talking about Anderson at the panel without a gun and TIM getting some gun from him few moments later. And it came to my mind... How come TIM, as smart as he is, and apparently in control of boht Anderson and you, and actually ABLE to make you shoot him, walks into your ****ing line of fire to grab a weapon, makes his only cover kneel and exposes a clear shot instead of making you ****ing shoot again? Isn't it utterly retarded?
Bad writing of course, Bioware is lazy.
Oh and apologies for any mistake I might make while writing, my english is getting rusty...
Bumping this, since everybody seemed to ignore due to a character hotness debate. ¿Any thoughts? I really think that behavior is way too stupid to be true. The way the situation is told, he could've perfectly killed both Anderson and Shepard without breaking a sweat, yet he does what he does.
Experience is the mother of all intellegence. And, interestingly enough, TIM has a military background which should have provided him with the basic understanding of what happens when you're not always vigilant to where guns are pointed around you.
However, one has to consider several factors involved:
#1. TIM isn't himself anymore; his mind is likely largely distorted and his sensibilities confounded. He is also attempting to manage control of two individuals and his own body and mind, which is likely straining his mental faculties.
#2. TIM's behavior is reminiscent of the Reapers, most notably in this case- his arrogance. This over-confindence has been the only thing that has allowed Shepard to overcome any Reaper at all. TIM likely believed that Shepard was no threat, as TIM, himself, had been implanted to a level allegedly sufficiant for controlling Reapers.
#44098
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 07:15
gunslinger_ruiz
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- Members
- 1 650 messages
Thaaats a nice big post Arian, but good to see you welcome back to the thread.
Y'know what I've found odd concerning the Reaper IFF is that they all know it's Reaper Tech and they all know Reaper Tech could emit that wonderful Indoctrination signal. Maybe they thought it was too small to be a danger? Or maybe it was just overlooked by the crew, even EDI, for the benefits. Maybe they thought EDI would keep the signal from broadcasting having done so much testing and diagnostics on it after the Collectors jumped them.
Speculation!
Y'know what I've found odd concerning the Reaper IFF is that they all know it's Reaper Tech and they all know Reaper Tech could emit that wonderful Indoctrination signal. Maybe they thought it was too small to be a danger? Or maybe it was just overlooked by the crew, even EDI, for the benefits. Maybe they thought EDI would keep the signal from broadcasting having done so much testing and diagnostics on it after the Collectors jumped them.
Speculation!
#44099
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 07:18
WinterCrow
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- Members
- 75 messages
Auralius Carolus wrote...
WinterCrow wrote...
WinterCrow wrote...
Okay, it's literally impossible to properly follow this thread. Miss one day and you have over 50 pages to read, stop reading like a madman the next day and you might get 100 unread pages.
But whatever, it's the first time I try to comment here cause every time I had something I could say I would go to the next page and find it already commented. I'm tired of browsing and reading this time, so I might be repeating something someone already mentioned.
Anyway, some pages ago you were talking about Anderson at the panel without a gun and TIM getting some gun from him few moments later. And it came to my mind... How come TIM, as smart as he is, and apparently in control of boht Anderson and you, and actually ABLE to make you shoot him, walks into your ****ing line of fire to grab a weapon, makes his only cover kneel and exposes a clear shot instead of making you ****ing shoot again? Isn't it utterly retarded?
Bad writing of course, Bioware is lazy.
Oh and apologies for any mistake I might make while writing, my english is getting rusty...
Bumping this, since everybody seemed to ignore due to a character hotness debate. ¿Any thoughts? I really think that behavior is way too stupid to be true. The way the situation is told, he could've perfectly killed both Anderson and Shepard without breaking a sweat, yet he does what he does.
Experience is the mother of all intellegence. And, interestingly enough, TIM has a military background which should have provided him with the basic understanding of what happens when you're not always vigilant to where guns are pointed around you.
However, one has to consider several factors involved:
#1. TIM isn't himself anymore; his mind is likely largely distorted and his sensibilities confounded. He is also attempting to manage control of two individuals and his own body and mind, which is likely straining his mental faculties.
#2. TIM's behavior is reminiscent of the Reapers, most notably in this case- his arrogance. This over-confindence has been the only thing that has allowed Shepard to overcome any Reaper at all. TIM likely believed that Shepard was no threat, as TIM, himself, had been implanted to a level allegedly sufficiant for controlling Reapers.
I agree his mind should feel somehow clouded after the dialogue and all. But still, when I think about your second argument... it still feels wrong. Instead of proving the point he's been making through the game (control is the solution) and make Shepard finish Anderson he chooses to pick a gun himself and destroy him with his own hands. TIM doing the dirty job himself when he has the whole situation "under control".
And he is supposed to be controlled by the reapers, too. If the reapers wanted Shepard finished right there... don't know, makes me think TIM either wasn't supposed to kill Shepard (and the starbrat is a huge trap) or it's indeed as IT suggest and TIM is acting through Shepard's logic.
Modifié par WinterCrow, 26 avril 2012 - 07:20 .
#44100
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 07:25
HellishFiend
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- Members
- 5 546 messages
Arian Dynas wrote...
One of my bigass catch up posts people, how are ya?
Feeling like crap, got a headache, wanna lie down, can't gotta do work.
Being a doubting Thomas about IT, but not for any real reason, just that sense of looming dread. Might be the headache/depression talking. Taking happy pills.
Bury me in new evidence and a positive public statement from Bioware so I can feel all warm and fuzzy.
kthanxbai
Hope you feel better soon. This isnt really new evidence, per se, but new food-for-thought (maybe not the best thing when you have a headache, haha) that I brought up a short while ago:
HellishFiend wrote...
By the way guys, I was watching my sister play LotSB earlier, and I noticed the "electric discharge" sounds in and around the Shadow Broker ship sound almost identical to the ones you hear in the control room (very apparent when the music cuts out after TIM and Anderson collapse).
Not sure if I'd be inclined to lean one way or the other as far as whether this was intentional or not. We generally accept that all visual elements from the post-Harbinger's beam sequence are from Shepard's mind, but what if the sounds are, too? Does anyone know of any sounds in the "dream sequence" that are unique and cant be traced back to an earlier part in the trilogy?
I'm interested to see if we can find any sound effects that appear to be entirely unique to the end sequence, or if they can all be traced back to an earlier source. If there are unique sounds, thats fine, but I'm willing to bet most of them are re-used just like the visuals.
Arian Dynas wrote...
HellishFiend wrote...
spotlessvoid wrote...
I have repeatedly seen people compare this to an "it was all just a dream" ending/retcon, but I think the huge difference is that indoctrination is such a primary part of the story that it's just wrong to claim it breaks the narrative by coming out of nowhere and invalidating everything. If anything, it's actually the natural progression of the story. Why wouldn't Harbinger attempt to weaken and indoctrinate Shepard?
Exactly. This isnt Dallas where the creators decide to make an entire season a dream so they can retcon a dead character back into the show. This isnt LOST where the story suddenly abandons plot and lore in favor of character driven narrative. Indoctrination is a constant, looming, ever-present danger in the mass effect storyline, and I know if the end goal was to attempt to cause the PLAYER to become indoctrinated in addition to Shepard, everything they have done up to this point has served that purpose perfectly. That includes the complete absence of Harbinger as well as the contents of the "dream" sequences and other "apparent plot holes".
And this is the reason we follow this theory.
That, plus it's a hell of a lot more interesting than the alternatives.
Face value interpretation/clarification?
No thanks.
Pro-ender?
Painful.
Re-take?
Implications...problematic. Also, less satisfying than IT.
Or, what if throughout ME3 we had archetypal moustache-twirling Harbinger "Your mind will be mine, Shepard" scenes throughout the game, followed by a semi-satisfying but obvious gameplay-oriented indoctrination sequence and ending?
Hmmm, no. I prefer IT.
