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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#44126
Arian Dynas

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pirate1802 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Taking the endings at face value, choosing destroy gets alot of innocent synthetics killed, hell they were your allies. So I can see why destroy isn't the best potion, but only IF we take the endings at face value.


Well. I know for a fact the breath scene takes place on Earth because the concrete matches the pattern of concrete in the Hammer Forward Base. So that gives me some comfort. Hopefully.


This drama is going on for too long. Even if Bioware planned this all alone they are stretching this now. I doubt many people will be left to play the DLC when it comes out. I can't say about myself. There are many hints towards indoctronation, my paragon mind accepts that, but my renegade mind tells me not the get my hope too high. I'm siding with renegade ATM.



Dude...

It's been a month.

No offense, but the internet has spoiled this generation, as well as the previous one. We have gotten way too damn used to getting things fast.

Give it time. I know, my emotions are going on a rollercoaster too, and I want to ride to end so I can go throw up before getting my chili dogs, so I don't have to worry about vomiting good chili dog.

Some things take time. It's a fact of life.

Be patient. It'll be worth it. Because if it's not, Bioware knows their necks are on the line. 

pirate1802 wrote...

I've got a bad feeling that Bioware is actually enjoying all this speculation and rage about the ending (any publicity is good publicity) so what they'll do is even in the EC they arn't gonna give any clear-cut answer. The ending will still be speculative with some of the question answered but largely upto one's interpretation (like it's now. Was it IT or was it real?) If that happens I swear I'll never buy another EA game in a very long time. Whether its IT or not, I want a crear answer, not more speculations. God that word has lost all respect now .I pray that I'm wrong :'(


Why? If we get closure out of it, and it ends in a satisfying way, then we've just got a "Was Deckard a Replicant" thing.

But I doubt they'll do that, for the simple fact they would have to keep ALL the writing staff mum on the subject. Even they know (from experience) a secret like that is hard to keep, especially when there is nothing on the line like there is now.


HellishFiend wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Taking the endings at face value, choosing destroy gets alot of innocent synthetics killed, hell they were your allies. So I can see why destroy isn't the best potion, but only IF we take the endings at face value.


Well. I know for a fact the breath scene takes place on Earth because the concrete matches the pattern of concrete in the Hammer Forward Base. So that gives me some comfort. Hopefully.


I'm still a firm believer that it's on Earth as well. I finished a playthrough last night and picked the destroy option to make sure I got it. BUT, you remember that third tire I thought I found a couple days ago? I'm pretty sure that's just more rubble now having seen it with my graphics full on (youtube quality sucks).
The rest of that "vehicle" structure definitely still looks like a Mako though, even the tire shapes on top of it. A lot of that scene is so hard to analyze, makes me wish I could record high quality stuff and rewind it.


It still looked like a tire to me, the last time I looked. Granted it is very difficult to make out, even at high brightness. In a perfect world, I would take an image of an upside down mako and try to align it to that scene, because to me it looks like that tire/wheel could match up with the positioning of the other apparent wheels/tires to make out a more complete upside-down mako. 

 

I've got better. Go back to one of my previous posts (around page 1623 I think) I re-posted a concrete comparison between a concrete sample seen in London and the Breath scene, they were identical. same pattern, same color (accounting for a blue light source (coughconduitcough) and similar breaking and wear. That is MORE than enough for me to say "on Earth the whole time."

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 26 avril 2012 - 08:15 .


#44127
HellishFiend

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Arian Dynas wrote...


HellishFiend wrote...

It still looked like a tire to me, the last time I looked. Granted it is very difficult to make out, even at high brightness. In a perfect world, I would take an image of an upside down mako and try to align it to that scene, because to me it looks like that tire/wheel could match up with the positioning of the other apparent wheels/tires to make out a more complete upside-down mako. 

 

I've got better. Go back to one of my previous posts (around page 1623 I think) I re-posted a concrete comparison between a concrete sample seen in London and the Breath scene, they were identical. same pattern, same color (accounting for a blue light source (coughconduitcough) and similar breaking and wear. That is MORE than enough for me to say "on Earth the whole time."


I've seen it. It does look very convincing. :) The mako/tire thing is a bit tougher to figure out, though. I've looked at it many times in an attempt to further sway myself one way or the other, but it remains a tough call since the brightness of that area is so low. 

#44128
Ravereth

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Actually there is one thing, which I really can't understand about synthesis ending... If it is "the best" ending, then... why soldiers don't celebrate the victory by waving their weapons in air?

#44129
DirtyPhoenix

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DJBare wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Taking the endings at face value, choosing destroy gets alot of innocent synthetics killed, hell they were your allies. So I can see why destroy isn't the best potion, but only IF we take the endings at face value.

For me, "taking things at face value" is where IT is strongly supported, the whole thing about indoctrination is deception, taking the victims own thoughts and twisting them, Saren was easily manipulated in this way because he already had a burr up his arse, even Garrus could have gone the same way because he had a problem with authority(and a stick up his arse).


I agree. The starchild is trying everything to make destroy seem like the worst choice, geth dying and all. While control seems paragon-like; noone dies except shepard.

#44130
HellishFiend

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Ravereth wrote...

Actually there is one thing, which I really can't understand about synthesis ending... If it is "the best" ending, then... why soldiers don't celebrate the victory by waving their weapons in air?


In the context of IT, because Shepard doesn't imagine they would be celebrating, for some reason.

Why would he assume they wouldnt be celebrating? Possibly because he thinks they have a problem with what is going on (confusion?), or possibly because their "final evolution of life" status has given them a zen-like or otherwise unique perspective that is not conducive to celebrating.


Come to think of it, IMO those are the two main possibilities for the face-value interpretation too. 

#44131
Ravereth

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HellishFiend wrote...

Ravereth wrote...

Actually there is one thing, which I really can't understand about synthesis ending... If it is "the best" ending, then... why soldiers don't celebrate the victory by waving their weapons in air?


In the context of IT, because Shepard doesn't imagine they would be celebrating, for some reason.

Why would he assume they wouldnt be celebrating? Possibly because he thinks they have a problem with what is going on (confusion?), or possibly because their "final evolution of life" status has given them a zen-like or otherwise unique perspective that is not conducive to celebrating.


Come to think of it, IMO those are the two main possibilities for the face-value interpretation too. 


Yes, I'm asking about face-value interpr. So, if they're confused in synthesis, then why they aren't in (good = high EMS) control ending? I would say, that merging with synthetics made them emotionless... 

Modifié par Ravereth, 26 avril 2012 - 08:34 .


#44132
HellishFiend

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Ravereth wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Ravereth wrote...

Actually there is one thing, which I really can't understand about synthesis ending... If it is "the best" ending, then... why soldiers don't celebrate the victory by waving their weapons in air?


In the context of IT, because Shepard doesn't imagine they would be celebrating, for some reason.

Why would he assume they wouldnt be celebrating? Possibly because he thinks they have a problem with what is going on (confusion?), or possibly because their "final evolution of life" status has given them a zen-like or otherwise unique perspective that is not conducive to celebrating.


Come to think of it, IMO those are the two main possibilities for the face-value interpretation too. 


Yes, I'm asking about face-value interpr. So, if they're confused in synthesis, then why they aren't in (good = high EMS) control ending? I would say that merging with synthetics made them emotionless... 


I wouldn't say emotionless, since Joker definitely displays emotion when he steps off the Normandy. More "understanding" (I'm sure there's a better word I'm not thinking of) perhaps. 

In Control, regardless of whether they're confused as to why the Reapers are taking off, they are no longer shooting and blasting away at Earth, and are instead heading back up into space, prompting the cheers. Theyre still human, and though the Reapers may not be dead, the war is over, so theyre happy (as long as Big Ben didnt fall down....<_<).

Something about Synthesis is affecting them in such a way that makes them not want to celebrate..... <_<

Modifié par HellishFiend, 26 avril 2012 - 08:37 .


#44133
Vahilor

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pirate1802 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Taking the endings at face value, choosing destroy gets alot of innocent synthetics killed, hell they were your allies. So I can see why destroy isn't the best potion, but only IF we take the endings at face value.

For me, "taking things at face value" is where IT is strongly supported, the whole thing about indoctrination is deception, taking the victims own thoughts and twisting them, Saren was easily manipulated in this way because he already had a burr up his arse, even Garrus could have gone the same way because he had a problem with authority(and a stick up his arse).


I agree. The starchild is trying everything to make destroy seem like the worst choice, geth dying and all. While control seems paragon-like; noone dies except shepard.


If I have to take the endings as face value, IDT is also the only way out for me.. and it even made me wonder a bit.. when you chose destroy.. Shep doesn't die (with high enough EMS), you never see either Geth or EDI shred into pieces by the wave.. and you even are able to have EDI come out of the Normandy... so Star Brat is a liar in any case.. in IDT and in a non-IDT face value ending..

#44134
HellishFiend

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Vahilor wrote...


If I have to take the endings as face value, IDT is also the only way out for me.. and it even made me wonder a bit.. when you chose destroy.. Shep doesn't die (with high enough EMS), you never see either Geth or EDI shred into pieces by the wave.. and you even are able to have EDI come out of the Normandy... so Star Brat is a liar in any case.. in IDT and in a non-IDT face value ending..


Did anyone ever produce proof that EDI can step off the Normandy in Destroy? Last update I heard was that it hadnt happened yet. 

#44135
BleedingUranium

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I believe I mentioned this about a thousand pages ago, but the very, very first thing you see in the game is a human fighter, sound effects and all. The scene then pans out and you see the kid is playing with it. This shows two things:

-When it comes to the kid, all is not what it seems.

-The kid is actually controlling what you think is reality.

I just blew my own mind... again!

#44136
HellishFiend

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BleedingUranium wrote...

I believe I mentioned this about a thousand pages ago, but the very, very first thing you see in the game is a human fighter, sound effects and all. The scene then pans out and you see the kid is playing with it. This shows two things:

-When it comes to the kid, all is not what it seems.

-The kid is actually controlling what you think is reality.

I just blew my own mind... again!


Yes, the symbolism there is strong. =)

There has been some additional discussion regarding the kid in the opening scenes in recent days, that you can look back for if you are interested. Someone mentioned the kid's body language being unusually aggressive after he boards the shuttle, and showing confusing/conflicting/inconsistent emotions. Someone also found that there is a "hidden scream" that you can hear if you turn off the music for the cutscene where the shuttles get blasted. 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 26 avril 2012 - 08:44 .


#44137
gunslinger_ruiz

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Whoever suggested I get the free version of FRAPS (I think it was pirate?), Thank you! You're right I can see it at perfect quality, leagues better than the ones I've found on youtube. I'll be watchin this till my eyes are red. I'll report my findings soon as I have a clear head. In the mean time, I've been trying to screenshot this since I first saw it:

Posted Image

The circled area, that look like a Reaper dreadnought shape to anyone else?

@Arian, I do still believe the breath is taken on Earth, due in large part by the rubble. It's the rest of the elements used in the scene that get my head churning.

#44138
BleedingUranium

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HellishFiend wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

I believe I mentioned this about a thousand pages ago, but the very, very first thing you see in the game is a human fighter, sound effects and all. The scene then pans out and you see the kid is playing with it. This shows two things:

-When it comes to the kid, all is not what it seems.

-The kid is actually controlling what you think is reality.

I just blew my own mind... again!


Yes, the symbolism there is strong. =)

There has been some additional discussion regarding the kid in the opening scenes in recent days, that you can look back for if you are interested. Someone mentioned the kid's body language being unusually aggressive after he boards the shuttle, and showing confusing/conflicting/inconsistent emotions. Someone also found that there is a "hidden scream" that you can hear if you turn off the music for the cutscene where the shuttles get blasted. 


I did read that, and noticed the body language, but never heard of the scream before.

Also, in one of the trailers (can't remember which) it shows that scene, but the first shuttle hit gets clipped and spins into the ground, but in the final game it explodes in a less realistic way, at least to me. Nothing to do with IT, just odd.

#44139
Tr0n01d

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1766 : stamp act abrogation.

#44140
HellishFiend

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gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

The circled area, that look like a Reaper dreadnought shape to anyone else?


 


Nice catch. Sovereign class reaper for sure. Does that have any contextual implications though? Probably not, since that sort of thing would have a place in either IT or face-value context.

Modifié par HellishFiend, 26 avril 2012 - 08:51 .


#44141
DJBare

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BleedingUranium wrote...

I believe I mentioned this about a thousand pages ago, but the very, very first thing you see in the game is a human fighter, sound effects and all. The scene then pans out and you see the kid is playing with it. This shows two things:

-When it comes to the kid, all is not what it seems.

-The kid is actually controlling what you think is reality.

I just blew my own mind... again!


The human fighter sound effects are real, while the child is playing two fighters pass overhead, I'm convinced the child is real at that point, it's only after the building gets hit I'm not convinced the child is real.

Shepard witnesses the child playing, this becomes a memory, the reapers then use that memory.

#44142
gunslinger_ruiz

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HellishFiend wrote...

 

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

The circled area, that look like a Reaper dreadnought shape to anyone else?


 


Nice catch. Sovereign class reaper for sure. Does that have any contextual implications though? Probably not, since that sort of thing would have a place in either IT or face-value context.


Personally, I think it could moreso represent the Control option being what the Reapers want you to pick or rather what the Reapers would choose. I'm seeing it as a Reaper logo, is that just me?

#44143
HellishFiend

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BleedingUranium wrote...

I did read that, and noticed the body language, but never heard of the scream before.

Also, in one of the trailers (can't remember which) it shows that scene, but the first shuttle hit gets clipped and spins into the ground, but in the final game it explodes in a less realistic way, at least to me. Nothing to do with IT, just odd.



Here is the scream:




#44144
HellishFiend

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gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

 

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

The circled area, that look like a Reaper dreadnought shape to anyone else?


 


Nice catch. Sovereign class reaper for sure. Does that have any contextual implications though? Probably not, since that sort of thing would have a place in either IT or face-value context.


Personally, I think it could moreso represent the Control option being what the Reapers want you to pick or rather what the Reapers would choose. I'm seeing it as a Reaper logo, is that just me?


Just trying to be objective here: it's a reaper control terminal, it stands to reason that a "reaper logo" wouldn't be out of place there in a face-value context. That means such a logo would have limited application as an "out of place" hint towards IT. 

Thats fine though, because we do have plenty of hints towards IT in that scene, as it is. 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 26 avril 2012 - 08:56 .


#44145
Domanese

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That scream definitely sounds hollow. Hell it doesn't even sound organic in nature.

#44146
HellishFiend

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Domanese wrote...

That scream definitely sounds hollow. Hell it doesn't even sound organic in nature.


Yeah. The ensuing discussion was focused on whether or not it was intended as a hint toward IT, just for dramatic effect, or even a QA mistake (I chuckled at that one). 

#44147
Arian Dynas

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Tr0n01d wrote...


1766 : stamp act abrogation.


Cuuuuute.....;)

#44148
Ravereth

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I can't stop thinking about these two quotes "You have hope, more than you think"/"You don't need hope" ugh...

PS. Does anyone know what starchild says if Shepard has two choices?

Modifié par Ravereth, 26 avril 2012 - 09:04 .


#44149
Earthborn_Shepard

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Sooo I'm back. Last time I looked we were talking about Sovereign humping the Citadel, but it seems pretty on-topic now.

#44150
gunslinger_ruiz

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HellishFiend wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

 

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

The circled area, that look like a Reaper dreadnought shape to anyone else?


 


Nice
catch. Sovereign class reaper for sure. Does that have any contextual
implications though? Probably not, since that sort of thing would have a
place in either IT or face-value context.


Personally, I
think it could moreso represent the Control option being what the
Reapers want you to pick or rather what the Reapers would choose. I'm
seeing it as a Reaper logo, is that just me?


Just
trying to be objective here: it's a reaper control terminal, it stands
to reason that a "reaper logo" wouldn't be out of place there in a
face-value context. That means such a logo would have limited
application as an "out of place" hint towards IT. 

Thats fine though, because we do have plenty of hints towards IT in that scene, as it is. 


Anyone else think Bioware should release a Reaper Logo brand line of clothing now? I've been awake too long haven't I.

Modifié par gunslinger_ruiz, 26 avril 2012 - 09:07 .