57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Dwailing]

TheConstantOne wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

Nauks wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I can't bear to watch some of the Renegade things.  The hardest things for me to watch are the killings of Mordin and Legion.  I swear I die a little inside every time I watch those on YouTube.

I could never go full Renegade in ME3, I'd need therapy to deal with all the horrible sheet I'd have Shepard do >
Renegades really get the shaft in ME3 tbh, so much pure wrongness, on the other hand, pure Paragon is too saint like too, Paragade for me thankyou.

My preffered Shep has a paragon personality on the whole but can be considered paragade given the mix of the major decisions.  The killing Mording moment for the genophage sabotage is the WORST moment of the game.  However, that's because Wrex was live in my renegade playthrough.  If Wreav was in charge...I'd feel bad but I think I'd go through with the sabotage

Oh, you got SCREWED big time by killing Mordin while Wrex was leader.  My advice, if you want to sabotage the Genophage, kill Wrex, destroy Maelon's data.  Wreav becomes leader, Eve dies due to lack of proper treatment, Mordin can be persuaded to permit sabotage without need to kill him.  Win-win.   You know, except for all the deaths that you will cause.  You monster.

Hahaha, Wreav is just disastrous for the galaxy and a horrible person.  I can't trust working with someone that terrible.
That being said I kept the collector base in my canon playthrough feeling that the cerberus fallout if they misused the tech would be worth saving every species from extinction hahaha. Oh contextual situations...how you reveal my flaws

See, the reason I say that you should not sabotage the Genophage if you have Wrex as leader is that he will discover the sabotage and you'll be forced to kill him, losing you a LOT of Krogan support.  Just making sure you know that. 

[Uncle Jo]

TheConstantOne wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...


I often considered Starkid's logic to be skewed because his logic itself was somewhat constrained.  He may be an AI but he could be shackled to a particualr directive similarly to how EDI was in ME 2.  The logic he uses is how he justifies what the Reapers do.  My personal take: the Reapers don't trust the galaxy to rest in the hands of solely organics or synthetics.  They want to preserve their dominance and their own vision of synthesis.  This is also how I interpreted the smile the kid has when you choose control: even if you take the Reapers in a different direction, they are still the most powerful beings in the galaxy and will be calling the shots to some extent.

This could be their true intent: They want to dominate everything for whatever reason. They don't give a damn about the preservation/salvation/whatsoever of the organics. They harvest them before they could become a threat and merely use them to enhance themselves. So synthesis and control are lies. There is one way to deal with them--> destroy.

It certainly is one option.  I wouldn't write control and synthesis off as lies though.  Synthesis brings all life to the level the Reapers view as ideal but were unable to achieve (perhaps because their makers didn't want the Reapers to achieve this vision of perfection?  Food for thought.)  Control  takes away the Reapers' current goal but still keeps them (the peak of evoltuion) at the top of the galactic food chain.

But that's just my take.  I'm not an IT person (I do enjoy the discussions however, that's why I hop on from time to time) and while I think Reaper Bieber wasn't being entirely straight with us, I don't think he was outright lieing either.

Synthesis is (bad) hidden form of totalitarianism... It might sound nice and all but it's a trap...  Making people/species evolve in the way YOU want with no other alternative... About control, I know Shep can do many things, but is a mere human, so control the Reapers ? The Starchild ? No way in hell...
I'm not really the IT person, but I can't take the face-value ending as plausible...
Same here. I enjoy reading this thread and eventually conversations with nice people

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 26 avril 2012 - 10:53 .

[Dwailing]

Simon_Says wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Your entire argument is based on emotional and moral grounds, not calculations of likelihood. 

SS2Dante wrote...

...and the odds of synthetics destroying everything on a large enough timeline are practically 100%

What data do we even have to use for the calculations of likelihood?

That's right, practically none. The starbrat claims that the created will always rebel against their creators, eventually leading to destruction. No evidence to back this up, despite some (not plenty, honestly) to the contrary. So we can't take this statement to be a conclusion derived from fact. It's an assumption. A possibly false one at that.

The problem with the Catalyst is that, with the information presented, there are simply too many unanswered questions and too few answers from this character to safely assume it even knows what the hell it's talking about, or what it's real intentions are.

Hey, when did we start actually considering the ReaperBieber's motivations as anything other that complete BS?

[TheConstantOne]

Dwailing wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

Nauks wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I can't bear to watch some of the Renegade things.  The hardest things for me to watch are the killings of Mordin and Legion.  I swear I die a little inside every time I watch those on YouTube.

I could never go full Renegade in ME3, I'd need therapy to deal with all the horrible sheet I'd have Shepard do >
Renegades really get the shaft in ME3 tbh, so much pure wrongness, on the other hand, pure Paragon is too saint like too, Paragade for me thankyou.

My preffered Shep has a paragon personality on the whole but can be considered paragade given the mix of the major decisions.  The killing Mording moment for the genophage sabotage is the WORST moment of the game.  However, that's because Wrex was live in my renegade playthrough.  If Wreav was in charge...I'd feel bad but I think I'd go through with the sabotage

Oh, you got SCREWED big time by killing Mordin while Wrex was leader.  My advice, if you want to sabotage the Genophage, kill Wrex, destroy Maelon's data.  Wreav becomes leader, Eve dies due to lack of proper treatment, Mordin can be persuaded to permit sabotage without need to kill him.  Win-win.   You know, except for all the deaths that you will cause.  You monster.

Hahaha, Wreav is just disastrous for the galaxy and a horrible person.  I can't trust working with someone that terrible.
That being said I kept the collector base in my canon playthrough feeling that the cerberus fallout if they misused the tech would be worth saving every species from extinction hahaha. Oh contextual situations...how you reveal my flaws

See, the reason I say that you should not sabotage the Genophage if you have Wrex as leader is that he will discover the sabotage and you'll be forced to kill him, losing you a LOT of Krogan support.  Just making sure you know that. 

I did learn that after the fact....as if killing Mordin wasn't bad enough..... Ah, I can feel a piece of my soul dieing just talking about this

[Dwailing]

TheConstantOne wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

Nauks wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I can't bear to watch some of the Renegade things.  The hardest things for me to watch are the killings of Mordin and Legion.  I swear I die a little inside every time I watch those on YouTube.

I could never go full Renegade in ME3, I'd need therapy to deal with all the horrible sheet I'd have Shepard do >
Renegades really get the shaft in ME3 tbh, so much pure wrongness, on the other hand, pure Paragon is too saint like too, Paragade for me thankyou.

My preffered Shep has a paragon personality on the whole but can be considered paragade given the mix of the major decisions.  The killing Mording moment for the genophage sabotage is the WORST moment of the game.  However, that's because Wrex was live in my renegade playthrough.  If Wreav was in charge...I'd feel bad but I think I'd go through with the sabotage

Oh, you got SCREWED big time by killing Mordin while Wrex was leader.  My advice, if you want to sabotage the Genophage, kill Wrex, destroy Maelon's data.  Wreav becomes leader, Eve dies due to lack of proper treatment, Mordin can be persuaded to permit sabotage without need to kill him.  Win-win.   You know, except for all the deaths that you will cause.  You monster.

Hahaha, Wreav is just disastrous for the galaxy and a horrible person.  I can't trust working with someone that terrible.
That being said I kept the collector base in my canon playthrough feeling that the cerberus fallout if they misused the tech would be worth saving every species from extinction hahaha. Oh contextual situations...how you reveal my flaws

See, the reason I say that you should not sabotage the Genophage if you have Wrex as leader is that he will discover the sabotage and you'll be forced to kill him, losing you a LOT of Krogan support.  Just making sure you know that. 

I did learn that after the fact....as if killing Mordin wasn't bad enough..... Ah, I can feel a piece of my soul dieing just talking about this

Yes!  Guilt!  Guilt!  Guilt!  Like I said before, to quote GLaDOS, "You monster."

[SS2Dante]

Simon_Says wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Your entire argument is based on emotional and moral grounds, not calculations of likelihood. 

SS2Dante wrote...

...and the odds of synthetics destroying everything on a large enough timeline are practically 100%

What data do we even have to use for the calculations of likelihood?

That's right, practically none. The starbrat claims that the created will always rebel against their creators, eventually leading to destruction. No evidence to back this up, despite some (not plenty, honestly) to the contrary. So we can't take this statement to be a conclusion derived from fact. It's an assumption. A possibly false one at that.

The problem with the Catalyst is that, with the information presented, there are simply too many unanswered questions and too few answers from this character to safely assume it even knows what the hell it's talking about, or what it's real intentions are.

Well, several. One is that the entire theme of the game is the repeated cycle, in which we have been told several times that at some point there is a synthetic organic war.

Second is the starchild. You can either believe everything he says, or nothing. There really isn't a middle ground, because then you're just picking and choosing the stuff you like, and you can debate about it forever without any answers. Without IT there isn't a serious, practical reason to disbelieve a being MUCH older than you, that has seen MUCH more than you.

Third is the basic nature of warfare. All species fight. However, synthetics are generally better at physical tasks like warfare. So they will win wars (just as the Geth did when they rebelled). Even if they had no statistical advantage, all it takes is one synthetic race to win by accident, and organic life is done. The probability of this on a long enough timeline is very high.

Like I said, even if the odds are tiny, from a galactic timeline view, it's going to happen.

Anyway, repeating myself now from earler debates and since we're into speculation I'm leaving it (I know I said that last post but this time I MEAN IT )

Modifié par SS2Dante, 26 avril 2012 - 10:58 .

[Earthborn_Shepard]

Why is this thread always exploding with posts shortly before I have to go to bed

[byne]

Dwailing wrote...

See, the reason I say that you should not sabotage the Genophage if you have Wrex as leader is that he will discover the sabotage and you'll be forced to kill him, losing you a LOT of Krogan support.  Just making sure you know that. 

In my opinion, the reason you shouldnt sabotage the cure if you have Wrex as leader is that Wrex has shown that he deserves the cure. Wreav hasnt done so, and even actively says he plans on doing things that will basically guarantee the krogan will become a problem again.

On Earth, where Wrex is all inspiring to his troops, and telling them to prove the value of the krogan people, Wreav tells them to keep an eye on the aliens they're fighting with, and learn the weaknesses, just in case.

Also, Wreav says he wants 'this place you call Australia' in return for retaking Earth. He claims he's just kidding... for now...

Leave it to a krogan to want the one continent on Earth chock full of deadly animals.

[HellishFiend]

SS2Dante wrote...

Anyhoo, basically the point is that the starchilds logic is not outright "stupid" or "crazy" as a lot of people claim.

EDIT - arrg like 10 fixes to mistakes while typing

Allow me to reference one of the many flaws in star brat's logic... He postulates (or declares, if you believe him) that synthetics will destroy all organics eventually without their intervention. Can we define that as a hopeless situation? I think we can. Shepard also points out that by killing off advanced races, the reapers are taking away their hope. Can we agree with that as well? I think we can. Further, since you are stating the Starbrat's logic is sound, we can make one final assumption to set up this flaw: that if the reaper's stop doing their thing (without synthesis), synthetics will eventually wipe out organics.

Under the assumption that the above are valid, we can further conclude the following assumption:

Hope is absent from organic existence regardless of whether the reapers implement their "solution" or not, because both situations result in the inevitable death of any given species on the path of sentience. Thus, the only proposed option where Hope is present is Synthesis.

So, here is the failure of logic:
Starbrat will say "You have hope, more than you think" even if you have access to only Control and Destroy, nullifying the significance of the fact that he says it when you also have access to Synthesis
Based on above assumptions, Control and Destroy will result in the eventual extinction of all organics (due to the assumption that absence of reaper cycle will result in synthetics destroying all organics). 
Starbrat's claim that "you have hope, more than you think" is illogical, since he offers you two options that both result in a hopeless situation. 

I could do that for almost all of his statements, but you get the idea. 

edit: Additionally, we could further pick apart the logic in each of the assumptions we make in this logic. False logic based on false logic? Hmm, yeah....

Modifié par HellishFiend, 26 avril 2012 - 11:02 .

[Dwailing]

SS2Dante wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Your entire argument is based on emotional and moral grounds, not calculations of likelihood. 

SS2Dante wrote...

...and the odds of synthetics destroying everything on a large enough timeline are practically 100%

What data do we even have to use for the calculations of likelihood?

That's right, practically none. The starbrat claims that the created will always rebel against their creators, eventually leading to destruction. No evidence to back this up, despite some (not plenty, honestly) to the contrary. So we can't take this statement to be a conclusion derived from fact. It's an assumption. A possibly false one at that.

The problem with the Catalyst is that, with the information presented, there are simply too many unanswered questions and too few answers from this character to safely assume it even knows what the hell it's talking about, or what it's real intentions are.

Well, several. One is that the entire theme of the game is the repeated cycle, in which we have been told several times that at some point there is a synthetic organic war.

Second is the starchild. You can either believe everything he says, or nothing. There really isn't a middle ground, because then you're just picking and choosing the stuff you like, and you can debate about it forever without any answers. Without IT there isn't a serious, practical reason to disbelieve a being MUCH older than you, that has seen MUCH more than you.

Third is the basic nature of warfare. All species fight. However, synthetics are generally better at physical tasks like warfare. So they will win wars (just as the Geth did when they rebelled). Even if they had no statistical advantage, all it takes is one synthetic race to win by accident, and organic life is done. The probability of this on a long enough timeline is very high.

Like I said, even if the odds are tiny, from a galactic timeline view, it's going to happen.

Anyway, repeating myself now from earler debates and since we're into speculation I'm leaving it (I know I said that last post but this time I MEAN IT )

All I can say about the Geth and the Quarians is this.  Remember that the QUARIANS struck first. The Geth didn't rebel, they were attacked first.  They only did what almost any being would do, they fought back to defend themselves.  The Geth also let the Quarians leave Rannoch rather than destroying them when they had the chance.  All this is explained in the Rannoch: Geth Figher Squadrons mission.  If you don't believe me, go back and replay the mission.  I know I'm going to be pretty soon.

[lex0r11]

Baldsake wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

Baldsake wrote...

Lol gotta love these kids getting mad over a videogame forum discussion.

[byne]

Dwailing wrote...

All I can say about the Geth and the Quarians is this.  Remember that the QUARIANS struck first. The Geth didn't rebel, they were attacked first.  They only did what almost any being would do, they fought back to defend themselves.  The Geth also let the Quarians leave Rannoch rather than destroying them when they had the chance.  All this is explained in the Rannoch: Geth Figher Squadrons mission.  If you don't believe me, go back and replay the mission.  I know I'm going to be pretty soon.

Oh god, not this again!

I spent like 3 hours last night in /vg/ debating who was at fault for the Morning War...

[Dwailing]

byne wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

See, the reason I say that you should not sabotage the Genophage if you have Wrex as leader is that he will discover the sabotage and you'll be forced to kill him, losing you a LOT of Krogan support.  Just making sure you know that. 

In my opinion, the reason you shouldnt sabotage the cure if you have Wrex as leader is that Wrex has shown that he deserves the cure. Wreav hasnt done so, and even actively says he plans on doing things that will basically guarantee the krogan will become a problem again.

On Earth, where Wrex is all inspiring to his troops, and telling them to prove the value of the krogan people, Wreav tells them to keep an eye on the aliens they're fighting with, and learn the weaknesses, just in case.

Also, Wreav says he wants 'this place you call Australia' in return for retaking Earth. He claims he's just kidding... for now...

Leave it to a krogan to want the one continent on Earth chock full of deadly animals.

This is all I can say about Wreav: 
  I know it refers to multiple people, but I still think it fits.

[spotlessvoid]

waldstr18 wrote...

@dwailing

i actually left the first time i was here, cause someone called me troll out of the blue. but then a few days later i came back and someone actually posted hes glad to see me back here, cause he liked the points i made and he was afraid that the rude guy chased me off. i even got some personal messages from people saying i shouldnt take the inpolite posters serious.

so i figure even though some of you have nothing better to do than fight with me over whos a troll and who isnt, others just like to read the posts while contemplating about whether or not they should believe in the theory.

after awhile i of course gave up the arguing and just came in here asking if something has been proven and if you are still following the theory. that seemed to offend people the most, which i can actually understand. even though i didnt mean to offend anyone. but since ive been called a troll without reason the first time i came here, i dont see why i should be bothered by anyone calling me a troll now. its an over used word anyhow, so who cares?

now if you call someone else a troll while im here - that i dont care for. and since i liked getting defended by someone else, i have to defend my follow non believers as well, if they get teamed up on just for posting here. which then ends with everyone teaming up on me again, but i dont care, now im used to it and its just a online forum. you dont know me, i dont know you. who knows what kind of horrible troubles some of you have to deal with outside this thread.

oh, and i like to talk of course.

BUT YOU ADMIT YOU ARE GOING TO TROLL IF YOU'RE PROVEN RIGHT! YOU ARE TOTALLY DISINGENUOUS!

If someone threatens to harm you, should you remain civil until the crime is actually committed?
I'm not buying a damned thing coming out of your mouth.
You know what you're doing here, just because you bounce back and forth from antagonizing this thread to playing the innocent victim doesn't change anything. The regulars here know who and what you are.

You hate IDT and your disdain pours out from almost every post you make.

Maybe you really are delusional enough to think you aren't flaming, but you sir are a troll.

[Dwailing]

byne wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

All I can say about the Geth and the Quarians is this.  Remember that the QUARIANS struck first. The Geth didn't rebel, they were attacked first.  They only did what almost any being would do, they fought back to defend themselves.  The Geth also let the Quarians leave Rannoch rather than destroying them when they had the chance.  All this is explained in the Rannoch: Geth Figher Squadrons mission.  If you don't believe me, go back and replay the mission.  I know I'm going to be pretty soon.

Oh god, not this again!

I spent like 3 hours last night in /vg/ debating who was at fault for the Morning War...

It was the Quarians.  The facts don't lie.

[TheConstantOne]

Uncle Jo wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...


I often considered Starkid's logic to be skewed because his logic itself was somewhat constrained.  He may be an AI but he could be shackled to a particualr directive similarly to how EDI was in ME 2.  The logic he uses is how he justifies what the Reapers do.  My personal take: the Reapers don't trust the galaxy to rest in the hands of solely organics or synthetics.  They want to preserve their dominance and their own vision of synthesis.  This is also how I interpreted the smile the kid has when you choose control: even if you take the Reapers in a different direction, they are still the most powerful beings in the galaxy and will be calling the shots to some extent.

This could be their true intent: They want to dominate everything for whatever reason. They don't give a damn about the preservation/salvation/whatsoever of the organics. They harvest them before they could become a threat and merely use them to enhance themselves. So synthesis and control are lies. There is one way to deal with them--> destroy.

It certainly is one option.  I wouldn't write control and synthesis off as lies though.  Synthesis brings all life to the level the Reapers view as ideal but were unable to achieve (perhaps because their makers didn't want the Reapers to achieve this vision of perfection?  Food for thought.)  Control  takes away the Reapers' current goal but still keeps them (the peak of evoltuion) at the top of the galactic food chain.

But that's just my take.  I'm not an IT person (I do enjoy the discussions however, that's why I hop on from time to time) and while I think Reaper Bieber wasn't being entirely straight with us, I don't think he was outright lieing either.

Synthesis is (bad) hidden form of totalitarianism... It might sound nice and all but it's a trap...  Making people/species evolve in the way YOU want with no other alternative... About control, I know Shep can do many things, but is a mere human, so control the Reapers ? The Starchild ? No way in hell...
I'm not really the IT person, but I can't take the face-value ending as plausible...
Same here. I enjoy reading this thread and eventually conversations with nice people

On synthesis: I can't deny that it does give everyone an upgrade without their consent.  But you can't always wait around for someone's permission.  Sometimes a definite course for everyone has to be decided for the greater good particularly when the alternative is killing a large number of synthetic lifefroms (which I consider to be genuine life in its own right) and taking control of killing machines that might overpower my mind. 

On control: My last sentence clearly illustrates that I agree with you here   However, this doesn't invalidate my interpretation of what Reaper Bieiber is trying to present here.  Nor does it invalidate your line of thought.

On destroy: Anderson quote "There's always...another way." The irony here is you see the image of him blowing up the tubes.

In short, while I personally think synthesis forced on everyone in such a manner is morally ambiguous (I like the idea but I'm sure many don't) I considered it to have the least negative impact for everyone.  Again just my opinion.  As for the ending being taken at face-value, I don't think it's entirely real either. I mean... a magic elevator?  I think it's a hallucination caused by the Crucible to explain to Shep how to use the control panel but, until EC, I don't think any of us have an answer to this

[Dwailing]

spotlessvoid wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

@dwailing

i actually left the first time i was here, cause someone called me troll out of the blue. but then a few days later i came back and someone actually posted hes glad to see me back here, cause he liked the points i made and he was afraid that the rude guy chased me off. i even got some personal messages from people saying i shouldnt take the inpolite posters serious.

so i figure even though some of you have nothing better to do than fight with me over whos a troll and who isnt, others just like to read the posts while contemplating about whether or not they should believe in the theory.

after awhile i of course gave up the arguing and just came in here asking if something has been proven and if you are still following the theory. that seemed to offend people the most, which i can actually understand. even though i didnt mean to offend anyone. but since ive been called a troll without reason the first time i came here, i dont see why i should be bothered by anyone calling me a troll now. its an over used word anyhow, so who cares?

now if you call someone else a troll while im here - that i dont care for. and since i liked getting defended by someone else, i have to defend my follow non believers as well, if they get teamed up on just for posting here. which then ends with everyone teaming up on me again, but i dont care, now im used to it and its just a online forum. you dont know me, i dont know you. who knows what kind of horrible troubles some of you have to deal with outside this thread.

oh, and i like to talk of course.

BUT YOU ADMIT YOU ARE GOING TO TROLL IF YOU'RE PROVEN RIGHT! YOU ARE TOTALLY DISINGENUOUS!

If someone threatens to harm you, should you remain civil until the crime is actually committed?
I'm not buying a damned thing coming out of your mouth.
You know what you're doing here, just because you bounce back and forth from antagonizing this thread to playing the innocent victim doesn't change anything. The regulars here know who and what you are.

You hate IDT and your disdain pours out from almost every post you make.

Maybe you really are delusional enough to think you aren't flaming, but you sir are a troll.

OK that's ENOUGH.  I've had enough of hate on this thread.  Can we all just CALM THE FRAK DOWN!?  Thank you!

[paxxton]

Dwailing wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Your entire argument is based on emotional and moral grounds, not calculations of likelihood. 

SS2Dante wrote...

...and the odds of synthetics destroying everything on a large enough timeline are practically 100%

What data do we even have to use for the calculations of likelihood?

That's right, practically none. The starbrat claims that the created will always rebel against their creators, eventually leading to destruction. No evidence to back this up, despite some (not plenty, honestly) to the contrary. So we can't take this statement to be a conclusion derived from fact. It's an assumption. A possibly false one at that.

The problem with the Catalyst is that, with the information presented, there are simply too many unanswered questions and too few answers from this character to safely assume it even knows what the hell it's talking about, or what it's real intentions are.

Well, several. One is that the entire theme of the game is the repeated cycle, in which we have been told several times that at some point there is a synthetic organic war.

Second is the starchild. You can either believe everything he says, or nothing. There really isn't a middle ground, because then you're just picking and choosing the stuff you like, and you can debate about it forever without any answers. Without IT there isn't a serious, practical reason to disbelieve a being MUCH older than you, that has seen MUCH more than you.

Third is the basic nature of warfare. All species fight. However, synthetics are generally better at physical tasks like warfare. So they will win wars (just as the Geth did when they rebelled). Even if they had no statistical advantage, all it takes is one synthetic race to win by accident, and organic life is done. The probability of this on a long enough timeline is very high.

Like I said, even if the odds are tiny, from a galactic timeline view, it's going to happen.

Anyway, repeating myself now from earler debates and since we're into speculation I'm leaving it (I know I said that last post but this time I MEAN IT )

All I can say about the Geth and the Quarians is this.  Remember that the QUARIANS struck first. The Geth didn't rebel, they were attacked first.  They only did what almost any being would do, they fought back to defend themselves.  The Geth also let the Quarians leave Rannoch rather than destroying them when they had the chance.  All this is explained in the Rannoch: Geth Figher Squadrons mission.  If you don't believe me, go back and replay the mission.  I know I'm going to be pretty soon.

To be specific, the Geth started to behave in a way that was unanticipated and unwanted by the Quarians. This can be considered a form of rebellion from the Quarians' point of view.

[SS2Dante]

Dwailing wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Your entire argument is based on emotional and moral grounds, not calculations of likelihood. 

SS2Dante wrote...

...and the odds of synthetics destroying everything on a large enough timeline are practically 100%

What data do we even have to use for the calculations of likelihood?

That's right, practically none. The starbrat claims that the created will always rebel against their creators, eventually leading to destruction. No evidence to back this up, despite some (not plenty, honestly) to the contrary. So we can't take this statement to be a conclusion derived from fact. It's an assumption. A possibly false one at that.

The problem with the Catalyst is that, with the information presented, there are simply too many unanswered questions and too few answers from this character to safely assume it even knows what the hell it's talking about, or what it's real intentions are.

Well, several. One is that the entire theme of the game is the repeated cycle, in which we have been told several times that at some point there is a synthetic organic war.

Second is the starchild. You can either believe everything he says, or nothing. There really isn't a middle ground, because then you're just picking and choosing the stuff you like, and you can debate about it forever without any answers. Without IT there isn't a serious, practical reason to disbelieve a being MUCH older than you, that has seen MUCH more than you.

Third is the basic nature of warfare. All species fight. However, synthetics are generally better at physical tasks like warfare. So they will win wars (just as the Geth did when they rebelled). Even if they had no statistical advantage, all it takes is one synthetic race to win by accident, and organic life is done. The probability of this on a long enough timeline is very high.

Like I said, even if the odds are tiny, from a galactic timeline view, it's going to happen.

Anyway, repeating myself now from earler debates and since we're into speculation I'm leaving it (I know I said that last post but this time I MEAN IT )

All I can say about the Geth and the Quarians is this.  Remember that the QUARIANS struck first. The Geth didn't rebel, they were attacked first.  They only did what almost any being would do, they fought back to defend themselves.  The Geth also let the Quarians leave Rannoch rather than destroying them when they had the chance.  All this is explained in the Rannoch: Geth Figher Squadrons mission.  If you don't believe me, go back and replay the mission.  I know I'm going to be pretty soon.

I completely agree, the Geth were entirely the victims, and not at all prone to violence. However (and I think at one point Legion confirms this) that had the Quarians NOT retreated from the Vale then the Geth would have had to kill them. Understandable, it's warfare, and they're just defending themselves. But the end result is a chunk of organic life gone, regardless. 

[DTKT]

paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Your entire argument is based on emotional and moral grounds, not calculations of likelihood. 

SS2Dante wrote...

...and the odds of synthetics destroying everything on a large enough timeline are practically 100%

What data do we even have to use for the calculations of likelihood?

That's right, practically none. The starbrat claims that the created will always rebel against their creators, eventually leading to destruction. No evidence to back this up, despite some (not plenty, honestly) to the contrary. So we can't take this statement to be a conclusion derived from fact. It's an assumption. A possibly false one at that.

The problem with the Catalyst is that, with the information presented, there are simply too many unanswered questions and too few answers from this character to safely assume it even knows what the hell it's talking about, or what it's real intentions are.

Well, several. One is that the entire theme of the game is the repeated cycle, in which we have been told several times that at some point there is a synthetic organic war.

Second is the starchild. You can either believe everything he says, or nothing. There really isn't a middle ground, because then you're just picking and choosing the stuff you like, and you can debate about it forever without any answers. Without IT there isn't a serious, practical reason to disbelieve a being MUCH older than you, that has seen MUCH more than you.

Third is the basic nature of warfare. All species fight. However, synthetics are generally better at physical tasks like warfare. So they will win wars (just as the Geth did when they rebelled). Even if they had no statistical advantage, all it takes is one synthetic race to win by accident, and organic life is done. The probability of this on a long enough timeline is very high.

Like I said, even if the odds are tiny, from a galactic timeline view, it's going to happen.

Anyway, repeating myself now from earler debates and since we're into speculation I'm leaving it (I know I said that last post but this time I MEAN IT )

All I can say about the Geth and the Quarians is this.  Remember that the QUARIANS struck first. The Geth didn't rebel, they were attacked first.  They only did what almost any being would do, they fought back to defend themselves.  The Geth also let the Quarians leave Rannoch rather than destroying them when they had the chance.  All this is explained in the Rannoch: Geth Figher Squadrons mission.  If you don't believe me, go back and replay the mission.  I know I'm going to be pretty soon.

To be specific, the Geth started to behave in a way that was unanticipated and unwanted by the Quarians. This can be considered a form of rebellion from the Quarians' point of view.

Yeah, the became sentient...

Does that justify a genocide?

[byne]

Dwailing wrote...

byne wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

All I can say about the Geth and the Quarians is this.  Remember that the QUARIANS struck first. The Geth didn't rebel, they were attacked first.  They only did what almost any being would do, they fought back to defend themselves.  The Geth also let the Quarians leave Rannoch rather than destroying them when they had the chance.  All this is explained in the Rannoch: Geth Figher Squadrons mission.  If you don't believe me, go back and replay the mission.  I know I'm going to be pretty soon.

Oh god, not this again!

I spent like 3 hours last night in /vg/ debating who was at fault for the Morning War...

It was the Quarians.  The facts don't lie.

I agree, but there were a lot of quarian apologists who insisted machines cant ever be trusted.

[draken-heart]

wait the reapers are machines right, if we could figure out the reaper signal could organics not use like a virus-type program to turn the reapers against one another?

[Dwailing]

paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Your entire argument is based on emotional and moral grounds, not calculations of likelihood. 

SS2Dante wrote...

...and the odds of synthetics destroying everything on a large enough timeline are practically 100%

What data do we even have to use for the calculations of likelihood?

That's right, practically none. The starbrat claims that the created will always rebel against their creators, eventually leading to destruction. No evidence to back this up, despite some (not plenty, honestly) to the contrary. So we can't take this statement to be a conclusion derived from fact. It's an assumption. A possibly false one at that.

The problem with the Catalyst is that, with the information presented, there are simply too many unanswered questions and too few answers from this character to safely assume it even knows what the hell it's talking about, or what it's real intentions are.

Well, several. One is that the entire theme of the game is the repeated cycle, in which we have been told several times that at some point there is a synthetic organic war.

Second is the starchild. You can either believe everything he says, or nothing. There really isn't a middle ground, because then you're just picking and choosing the stuff you like, and you can debate about it forever without any answers. Without IT there isn't a serious, practical reason to disbelieve a being MUCH older than you, that has seen MUCH more than you.

Third is the basic nature of warfare. All species fight. However, synthetics are generally better at physical tasks like warfare. So they will win wars (just as the Geth did when they rebelled). Even if they had no statistical advantage, all it takes is one synthetic race to win by accident, and organic life is done. The probability of this on a long enough timeline is very high.

Like I said, even if the odds are tiny, from a galactic timeline view, it's going to happen.

Anyway, repeating myself now from earler debates and since we're into speculation I'm leaving it (I know I said that last post but this time I MEAN IT )

All I can say about the Geth and the Quarians is this.  Remember that the QUARIANS struck first. The Geth didn't rebel, they were attacked first.  They only did what almost any being would do, they fought back to defend themselves.  The Geth also let the Quarians leave Rannoch rather than destroying them when they had the chance.  All this is explained in the Rannoch: Geth Figher Squadrons mission.  If you don't believe me, go back and replay the mission.  I know I'm going to be pretty soon.

To be specific, the Geth started to behave in a way that was unanticipated and unwanted by the Quarians. This can be considered a form of rebellion from the Quarians' point of view.

Yes, but the Quarians were the one's that overreacted and ATTACKED THEM.  They didn't have to.  They had created a new race.  They should have helped the Geth to develop, not tried to blast them into nonexistence.

[HellishFiend]

draken-heart wrote...

wait the reapers are machines right, if we could figure out the reaper signal could organics not use like a virus-type program to turn the reapers against one another?

The goal of Cerberus throughout the entirety of ME3 was to figure out how to control the Reapers by using their own signal against them. Was it/Is it possible? We dont have the answer to that yet, but I doubt it. 

[balance5050]

paxxton wrote...

To be specific, the Geth started to behave in a way that was unanticipated and unwanted by the Quarians. This can be considered a form of rebellion from the Quarians' point of view.

This comes down to whether you believe that the Geth had the right to rebel or not.  I believe that anything that wishes to stay alive has the right to live. Some of the Geth died to save their masters from other Quarians man, they had heart even back then.