57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Dracorequiem]

This seems like the appropriate place for this. In all seriousness, I'm a huge supporter of the IT. Just a self-aware one.

[MegumiAzusa]

MasterDracoStoc wrote...

"...codex states indoctrination can make the victim feel as being watched..."
Honestly it really doesn't take anything to make someone feel paranoid. Go to a mall and drop your keys near someone, you'll see what I mean. Paranoia can be set off by anything.

Sure but it doesn't seem likely one hears hums and at least two feel like being watched.

[byne]

Oh god that was the weirdest crew member banter ever. Its the one where Tali is talking with Adams, Kenneth, and Gabby about rerouting heat, except Gabby and Ken were both in the subdeck making out, so their part of the conversation was very quiet, and Adams is currently in the Mess Hall with Chakwas, so his parts were just silent.

Was really strange.

[MasterDracoStoc]

@Megumi (I don't want to make a giant response tree.) The video is interesting, and I can see where you'd think that supports Liara being indoctrinated, but you are in the same boat we are. We can all dig up fairly good supporting evidence for both sides, but we can't truly prove or disprove each other. The problem is the scripts are open ended, and can be taken too many ways. The (Paraphrasing) "I don't like it, I think he's watching me" can either be a mind being indoctrinated, or someone simply afraid of a massive highly destructive being that may, or may not, be alive that is part of a species proven to alter minds and shape events.

[Auralius Carolus]

HellishFiend wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...


Also, the Catalyst said that Shepard was "the first organic ever" to set foot on that part of the station. Makes one wonder about dudes/squids/sentient slinkies in spacesuits but that's what Starbrat said.

Dont get me started... If he's the first organic ever, why is there organic tech and writing there? Control pedestals designed for organic use? A tube specifically designed to be penetrable by small arms fire that causes some kind of chain reaction? On the exterior of the Citadel? Really?

If you'll notice with the control pedistals, they are perfectly aligned for four-armed use, which would suggest that the Keepers were meant to use them. I find it highly plausible that this device was to be used to open the Citadel Relay for the Reapers, before the Protheans changed the Keeper programming.

It is also highly likely that the Keepers, in form, are as old as the Reapers- perhaps the original species, being use much like Collectors or Husks. Those who are not suitable for the ascention are used for manual labor.

I'll admit that is a plausible possibility, however it raises the question of why it is on the exterior of the Citadel and has never been investigated by organics before. Do the keepers take the light elevator up to that area too? Why couldnt the catalyst fix what was wrong on the Citadel?

Question One: It's not really on the exterior- as you can see, it is encapsulated. It is possible that the Citadel races simply said "Lets leave well-enough alone instead of trying to get in there are risk the entire Citadel depressurizing".

Question Two: They may very well take the evilator, if it's real.

Question Three: The Catalyst seems to lack hardware allowing it to manipulate object directly. This is clearly a weakness, as it is largely inept and another reason to bring its authority/reality into question.

[paxxton]

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

byne wrote...

Doing the N7 mission on Cyone, the one that is Firebase Reactor in multiplayer.

Squadmates are talking

Liara: Something terrible happened here...
James: Yeah, I feel like we're being watched...

So yeah, apparently not only does James hear hums in the cargo bay, he can sense nearby Reaper forces.

Is James a Grey-Warden now?

I would link that back to the discussion we had some hundret pages ago

But no, as the codex states indoctrination can make the victim feel as being watched. This means, combined with the link I posted some pages ago: at least Liara and Vega are indoctrinated to some extend.

TIM on Thessia implies that Liara knew about the Prothean beacon (or at least the importance of the Temple of Athame) all along and didn't tell Shepard about it.

He could also be taken literally with what he says on Thessia. Liara simply missed it. Alternately, he could be implying that the data that led him there was part of what he managed to grab and keep for himself and not let fall into Shepard's hands (it is said earlier in the game that they only got "most" of the data). 

Perhaps it's just FUD from TIM. For a brief moment Liara seemed fishy though.

Modifié par paxxton, 27 avril 2012 - 02:50 .

[byne]

Auralius Carolus wrote...


Question Two: They may very well take the evilator, if it's real.

Did you spell it EVILator on purpose, or was that just a typo? Either way it made me lol

[MegumiAzusa]

MasterDracoStoc wrote...

@Megumi (I don't want to make a giant response tree.) The video is interesting, and I can see where you'd think that supports Liara being indoctrinated, but you are in the same boat we are. We can all dig up fairly good supporting evidence for both sides, but we can't truly prove or disprove each other. The problem is the scripts are open ended, and can be taken too many ways. The (Paraphrasing) "I don't like it, I think he's watching me" can either be a mind being indoctrinated, or someone simply afraid of a massive highly destructive being that may, or may not, be alive that is part of a species proven to alter minds and shape events.

Yes, and that is what I think is very well made in ME3.
But in this case we also have additional stuff like in ME2 the derelict Reaper could still indoctrinate, it was guessed it can because the core is still active and therefor some of the tech. And now EDI just blurps out that the Core of that Reaper is still intact too and used by Cerberus. More then coincidence but well placed dialogue.
Again as you said it doesn't need to be anything at the end, but it still makes you think as it could very well mean something.

[MasterDracoStoc]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

MasterDracoStoc wrote...

"...codex states indoctrination can make the victim feel as being watched..."
Honestly it really doesn't take anything to make someone feel paranoid. Go to a mall and drop your keys near someone, you'll see what I mean. Paranoia can be set off by anything.

Sure but it doesn't seem likely one hears hums and at least two feel like being watched.

Have you ever been alone in your house, and heard something like a door opening that shouldn't be? Or an unexplained creek in the roof may cause you to believe that you are hearing footsteps? When you deal with the unknown your mind will fill in blanks, even if you know that there is a perfectly logical explanation for the events. I don't particularly like the "James hears humming, there must be an Indoc. device on board" argument (that many people use), since James could simply be bored and hearing things. He is down there with only Cortez and random Red Shirt Men.

[HellishFiend]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

I'll admit that is a plausible possibility, however it raises the question of why it is on the exterior of the Citadel and has never been investigated by organics before. Do the keepers take the light elevator up to that area too? Why couldnt the catalyst fix what was wrong on the Citadel?

Question One: It's not really on the exterior- as you can see, it is encapsulated. It is possible that the Citadel races simply said "Lets leave well-enough alone instead of trying to get in there are risk the entire Citadel depressurizing".

Question Two: They may very well take the evilator, if it's real.

Question Three: The Catalyst seems to lack hardware allowing it to manipulate object directly. This is clearly a weakness, as it is largely inept and another reason to bring its authority/reality into question.

It's not encapsulated at all... The encapsulation you speak of is actually the Crucible. If it werent there, that would be completely open space. 

And how do you figure the catalyst cant manipulate objects? The bridges at the end were clearly raised by him. They didnt raise themselves. Neither did the "evilator", for that matter. 

[Dracorequiem]

MasterDracoStoc wrote...

Have you ever been alone in your house, and heard something like a door opening that shouldn't be? Or an unexplained creek in the roof may cause you to believe that you are hearing footsteps? When you deal with the unknown your mind will fill in blanks, even if you know that there is a perfectly logical explanation for the events. I don't particularly like the "James hears humming, there must be an Indoc. device on board" argument (that many people use), since James could simply be bored and hearing things. He is down there with only Cortez and random Red Shirt Men.

It seems strange that a script could have such a throwaway line in it. IRL, yes, I probably wouldn't attribute him hearing humming to indoctrination. But in a script for a story, why would you even bother having that line? It doesn't reveal any new info or contribute in any way to the tone of the scene or plot/character development.

It's a really random line, and I think one that's supposed to hint at Indoctrination.

Edit: But your earlier points about the paranoia of Liara/Shep being logical are totally valid. It helps get inside their minds and sets the creepy tone. That's not to say that I don't think they're not also little hints at IT, I totally do. But I could see those lines being in there without IT anywhere on the table.

Modifié par Dracorequiem, 27 avril 2012 - 03:00 .

[Auralius Carolus]

Dracorequiem wrote...



This seems like the appropriate place for this. In all seriousness, I'm a huge supporter of the IT. Just a self-aware one.

Ah yes, Giorgio Tsoukalos. The man can an extraordinarily intellegent argument, then end it with "Aliens". I absolutely do not grow tired of watching him.

"Wait for it... wait for it... here it comes..."
"...and it all leads back to extraterrestrials!"

 Just like the story line in Mass Effect, he'll lead you on for 95% of the run- make you a real believer- then drive the theory over a cliff in the last 5%. Unless, of course, it really is IT, then it makes sense.

[MasterDracoStoc]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

MasterDracoStoc wrote...

@Megumi (I don't want to make a giant response tree.) The video is interesting, and I can see where you'd think that supports Liara being indoctrinated, but you are in the same boat we are. We can all dig up fairly good supporting evidence for both sides, but we can't truly prove or disprove each other. The problem is the scripts are open ended, and can be taken too many ways. The (Paraphrasing) "I don't like it, I think he's watching me" can either be a mind being indoctrinated, or someone simply afraid of a massive highly destructive being that may, or may not, be alive that is part of a species proven to alter minds and shape events.

Yes, and that is what I think is very well made in ME3.
But in this case we also have additional stuff like in ME2 the derelict Reaper could still indoctrinate, it was guessed it can because the core is still active and therefor some of the tech. And now EDI just blurps out that the Core of that Reaper is still intact too and used by Cerberus. More then coincidence but well placed dialogue.
Again as you said it doesn't need to be anything at the end, but it still makes you think as it could very well mean something.

I agree with all parts.  I want to know who decided a Reaper Heart in a giant Reaper killin' machine was a good idea. Bioware is really good at throwing in quips like "What if Revan isn't dead" or "Is it just me, or is that statue humming". Its there for consideration, but may prove to be random coloring. Its difficult to have conversations on this forum without sounding offensive or aggresive, but know that I am simply adding debate, and mean no offense and look at all evidence with only partial bias.

[Golferguy758]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...


Also, the Catalyst said that Shepard was "the first organic ever" to set foot on that part of the station. Makes one wonder about dudes/squids/sentient slinkies in spacesuits but that's what Starbrat said.

Dont get me started... If he's the first organic ever, why is there organic tech and writing there? Control pedestals designed for organic use? A tube specifically designed to be penetrable by small arms fire that causes some kind of chain reaction? On the exterior of the Citadel? Really?

If you'll notice with the control pedistals, they are perfectly aligned for four-armed use, which would suggest that the Keepers were meant to use them. I find it highly plausible that this device was to be used to open the Citadel Relay for the Reapers, before the Protheans changed the Keeper programming.

It is also highly likely that the Keepers, in form, are as old as the Reapers- perhaps the original species, being use much like Collectors or Husks. Those who are not suitable for the ascention are used for manual labor.

I'll admit that is a plausible possibility, however it raises the question of why it is on the exterior of the Citadel and has never been investigated by organics before. Do the keepers take the light elevator up to that area too? Why couldnt the catalyst fix what was wrong on the Citadel?

Question One: It's not really on the exterior- as you can see, it is encapsulated. It is possible that the Citadel races simply said "Lets leave well-enough alone instead of trying to get in there are risk the entire Citadel depressurizing".

Question Two: They may very well take the evilator, if it's real.

Question Three: The Catalyst seems to lack hardware allowing it to manipulate object directly. This is clearly a weakness, as it is largely inept and another reason to bring its authority/reality into question.

[Simon_Says]

HellishFiend wrote...

No no, I like it! You should drink more! That is some awesome food for thought, right there. 

A'right.



Going back to that conversation with our old friend Sovereign.

"There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it."

"Reaper: a label created by the protheans to give voice to their desuction. In the end, what they choose to call us is irrelevent. We simply, are." (The reapers are the voice of the Cosmic Imperative?)

"Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident." (sounds like cancer)

"We are eternal. The pinnical of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing." (Before us, you are nothing. Us as in the Cosmic Imperative?)

"By using (mass effect tech), your society develops along the paths we desire." (The Cosmic Imperative desires?)

"We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution." (We the Cosmic Imperative)

"You cannot even grasp the nature of our existence."

"We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite. Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure."

Modifié par Simon_Says, 27 avril 2012 - 02:59 .

[MasterDracoStoc]

Dracorequiem wrote...

MasterDracoStoc wrote...

Have you ever been alone in your house, and heard something like a door opening that shouldn't be? Or an unexplained creek in the roof may cause you to believe that you are hearing footsteps? When you deal with the unknown your mind will fill in blanks, even if you know that there is a perfectly logical explanation for the events. I don't particularly like the "James hears humming, there must be an Indoc. device on board" argument (that many people use), since James could simply be bored and hearing things. He is down there with only Cortez and random Red Shirt Men.

It seems strange that a script could have such a throwaway line in it. IRL, yes, I probably wouldn't attribute him hearing humming to indoctrination. But in a script for a story, why would you even bother having that line? It doesn't reveal any new info or contribute in any way to the tone of the scene or plot/character development.

It's a really random line, and I think one that's supposed to hint at Indoctrination.

Perhaps, but then EDI's "Are you sure this is the real world" line at the end of the Geth Server mission would indicate this isn't the real world. Not all of it will turn out to be true, and some of it is brilliant writing.

[TGSP]

the more I think about the ending and the more I read about the various theories the less any of it makes sense.
Including the Indoctrination Theory

Modifié par TGSP, 27 avril 2012 - 03:03 .

[HellishFiend]

Simon_Says wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

No no, I like it! You should drink more! That is some awesome food for thought, right there. 

A'right.



Going back to that conversation with our old friend Sovereign.

"There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it."

"Reaper: a label created by the protheans to give voice to their desuction. In the end, what they choose to call us is irrelevent. We simply, are." (The reapers are the voice of the Cosmic Imperative?)

"Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident." (sounds like cancer)

"We are eternal. The pinnical of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing." (Before us, you are nothing. Us as in the Cosmic Imperative?)

"By using (mass effect tech), your society develops along the paths we desire." (The Cosmic Imperative desires?)

"We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution." (We the Cosmic Imperative)

"You cannot even grasp the nature of our existence."

"We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite. Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure."

*thoughtfully strokes beard*

I dare say this might be an even more satisfying truth than "Reapers gonna Reap"

[byne]

MasterDracoStoc wrote...

Dracorequiem wrote...

MasterDracoStoc wrote...

Have you ever been alone in your house, and heard something like a door opening that shouldn't be? Or an unexplained creek in the roof may cause you to believe that you are hearing footsteps? When you deal with the unknown your mind will fill in blanks, even if you know that there is a perfectly logical explanation for the events. I don't particularly like the "James hears humming, there must be an Indoc. device on board" argument (that many people use), since James could simply be bored and hearing things. He is down there with only Cortez and random Red Shirt Men.

It seems strange that a script could have such a throwaway line in it. IRL, yes, I probably wouldn't attribute him hearing humming to indoctrination. But in a script for a story, why would you even bother having that line? It doesn't reveal any new info or contribute in any way to the tone of the scene or plot/character development.

It's a really random line, and I think one that's supposed to hint at Indoctrination.

Perhaps, but then EDI's "Are you sure this is the real world" line at the end of the Geth Server mission would indicate this isn't the real world. Not all of it will turn out to be true, and some of it is brilliant writing.

Actually its Joker who says that. EDI claims it is the real world.

Joker then says that if an AI based on Reaper tech assures you that you're in the real world then you clearly have no reason to worry.

EDI sure puts up with a lot of crap from Joker.

[balance5050]

byne wrote...

Actually its Joker who says that. EDI claims it is the real world.

Joker then says that if an AI based on Reaper tech assures you that you're in the real world then you clearly have no reason to worry.

EDI sure puts up with a lot of crap from Joker.

That allusion jumped out at me HARD. I knew that the consensus mission was important to the end right then and there.

[MasterDracoStoc]

*Snip

byne wrote...

Actually its Joker who says that. EDI claims it is the real world.

Joker then says that if an AI based on Reaper tech assures you that you're in the real world then you clearly have no reason to worry.

EDI sure puts up with a lot of crap from Joker.

I could have sworn it was EDI. Then I've only been through twice. Does anyone have, perhaps, a video with that dialogue at their disposal?

[Dracorequiem]

balance5050 wrote...

byne wrote...

Actually its Joker who says that. EDI claims it is the real world.

Joker then says that if an AI based on Reaper tech assures you that you're in the real world then you clearly have no reason to worry.

EDI sure puts up with a lot of crap from Joker.

That allusion jumped out at me HARD. I knew that the consensus mission was important to the end right then and there.

Yeah I remember thinking "Wow, this seems like the writers are really trying to hit me over the head with something, here." I guess part of it was the metahumor of Shep being in a video game, but still I'd like to think there was more to it.

[Golferguy758]

Dracorequiem wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

byne wrote...

Actually its Joker who says that. EDI claims it is the real world.

Joker then says that if an AI based on Reaper tech assures you that you're in the real world then you clearly have no reason to worry.

EDI sure puts up with a lot of crap from Joker.

That allusion jumped out at me HARD. I knew that the consensus mission was important to the end right then and there.

Yeah I remember thinking "Wow, this seems like the writers are really trying to hit me over the head with something, here." I guess part of it was the metahumor of Shep being in a video game, but still I'd like to think there was more to it.

I saw it just as breaking the 4th wall joke. The only way it would have been more apparent is if they all turned to stare at the camera while they spoke that line.

[Auralius Carolus]

HellishFiend wrote...

It's not encapsulated at all... The encapsulation you speak of is actually the Crucible. If it werent there, that would be completely open space. 

And how do you figure the catalyst cant manipulate objects? The bridges at the end were clearly raised by him. They didnt raise themselves. Neither did the "evilator", for that matter. 

The Crucible is there, but there has to be an environmentally suitable containment zone there for Shepard to exist. The base consideration is that there is some sort of field around this part of the Citadel. That is UNLESS the entire thing isn't real, but a dream. Is there proof for this, in this scenario? Maybe- if no organic has ever set foot there, how is it that the Crucible is specifically designed to interact with that part of the Citadel? It is possible that engineers could have used theoretical schematics of the Citadel, but highly unlikely if the opportunity arose to investigate personally to take measurements.

As to object manipulation, the Catalyst is either extremely limited or unable. If it had been able to, it is logical that the Catalyst would have simply over-ridden the Prothean alterations and opened up the Citadel Relay for the Reapers. As for the elivator and bridges, that's a big ????. Automation is possible, but that the Catalyst already is basically a huge logical fart, it's hard to say. He certainly claims that he can't affect the Reaper's and, as with the Control Panel, there are hints that biologicals are needed.

[byne]

MasterDracoStoc wrote...

*Snip

byne wrote...

Actually its Joker who says that. EDI claims it is the real world.

Joker then says that if an AI based on Reaper tech assures you that you're in the real world then you clearly have no reason to worry.

EDI sure puts up with a lot of crap from Joker.

I could have sworn it was EDI. Then I've only been through twice. Does anyone have, perhaps, a video with that dialogue at their disposal?

Man, I was all 'Its gonna take me a while to find that specific banter in this video' and then it turns out to be the very first one.