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[Auralius Carolus]

Dracorequiem wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

The problem is that the implications of the entire starchild sequence (his logical fallacies aside), including everything both you and I have mentioned, are all self-contradictory. You do a good job of pointing that out yourself in the first paragraph. This discussion originated from attempting to justify the face value context, which we obviously cant do. Even pro-enders cant, because their justifications are mistakes, oversights,  and bad writing on the part of the developers. 

Which is the difference between us and them. We tend to be analytical, creative, and willing to believe that others- in this case the designers- are capable of sharing those traits with us.

I think what really defines IT supporters is our faith in the competency of the writing staff. We see all these horrible mistakes and think... this is so bad it HAS to be done on purpose.

Faith aside, history suggests that there has not been a significant change in the Bioware design team from ME1-3. Most design elements that have evolved/changed have been reactionary to consumer demand. Yet who gets blamed? Electronic Arts, (admittedly, I've seen EA pull some stunts before and I still enjoy ragging on them  ), however- in past years- I've seen several noteworthy EA labels increase in overall quality, suggesting that the "Corperate Overlords" that people love to hate, are potentially scapegoats.

That's, quite possibly, what lead me to IT- I simply don't fall for the class warfare "Hate the Big Guy" narrative. Even as complex as the corperate scene can be, there had to be something logical to explain this and then... an AHA! Moment. Narrative subterfuge. After investigation, it adds up.

[Simon_Says]

I just realized something.

You remember those comparisons of the crucible platform to the dialogue wheel right?

Except, normally, unlockable dialogue options are on the left side.

Destroy could be the -paragon- option!

[Simon_Says]

byne wrote...

Oh GolferGuy, I respected you so much before you went and added a MLP picture.

Now I dont even know what to think about you

He's 20% cooler that's what you should think.

[HellishFiend]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

Faith aside, history suggests that there has not been a significant change in the Bioware design team from ME1-3. Most design elements that have evolved/changed have been reactionary to consumer demand. Yet who gets blamed? Electronic Arts, (admittedly, I've seen EA pull some stunts before and I still enjoy ragging on them  ), however- in past years- I've seen several noteworthy EA labels increase in overall quality, suggesting that the "Corperate Overlords" that people love to hate, are potentially scapegoats.

That's, quite possibly, what lead me to IT- I simply don't fall for the class warfare "Hate the Big Guy" narrative. Even as complex as the corperate scene can be, there had to be something logical to explain this and then... an AHA! Moment. Narrative subterfuge. After investigation, it adds up.

Actually, I'd consider the lost of Drew Karpyshyn to be a significant loss, but that's not to say that I've lost faith in the ME team because of it.

[spotlessvoid]

Auralius Carolus wrote...


The Crucible is there, but there has to be an environmentally suitable containment zone there for Shepard to exist. The base consideration is that there is some sort of field around this part of the Citadel. That is UNLESS the entire thing isn't real, but a dream. Is there proof for this, in this scenario? Maybe- if no organic has ever set foot there, how is it that the Crucible is specifically designed to interact with that part of the Citadel? It is possible that engineers could have used theoretical schematics of the Citadel, but highly unlikely if the opportunity arose to investigate personally to take measurements.

As to object manipulation, the Catalyst is either extremely limited or unable. If it had been able to, it is logical that the Catalyst would have simply over-ridden the Prothean alterations and opened up the Citadel Relay for the Reapers. As for the elivator and bridges, that's a big ????. Automation is possible, but that the Catalyst already is basically a huge logical fart, it's hard to say. He certainly claims that he can't affect the Reaper's and, as with the Control Panel, there are hints that biologicals are needed.

Do you think it's possible that TIM could control Shepards movement, but Harbinger/Starchild can't?

I actually think you made an argument in IDTs favor my friend.

[HellishFiend]

Simon_Says wrote...

I just realized something.

You remember those comparisons of the crucible platform to the dialogue wheel right?

Except, normally, unlockable dialogue options are on the left side.

Destroy could be the -paragon- option!

I'm not sure what you're suggesting with this. If we're supposed to view the options as if they were a dialog wheel (which I believe that we are), we still cant derive which is the "true paragon" option because that would imply that we know whether to rotate it clockwise or counterclockwise to orient it vertically.

[HellishFiend]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...


The Crucible is there, but there has to be an environmentally suitable containment zone there for Shepard to exist. The base consideration is that there is some sort of field around this part of the Citadel. That is UNLESS the entire thing isn't real, but a dream. Is there proof for this, in this scenario? Maybe- if no organic has ever set foot there, how is it that the Crucible is specifically designed to interact with that part of the Citadel? It is possible that engineers could have used theoretical schematics of the Citadel, but highly unlikely if the opportunity arose to investigate personally to take measurements.

As to object manipulation, the Catalyst is either extremely limited or unable. If it had been able to, it is logical that the Catalyst would have simply over-ridden the Prothean alterations and opened up the Citadel Relay for the Reapers. As for the elivator and bridges, that's a big ????. Automation is possible, but that the Catalyst already is basically a huge logical fart, it's hard to say. He certainly claims that he can't affect the Reaper's and, as with the Control Panel, there are hints that biologicals are needed.

Do you think it's possible that TIM could control Shepards movement, but Harbinger/Starchild can't?

I actually think you made an argument in IDTs favor my friend.

Actually, what happened was that we got into a discussion about the face value context due to a random comment earlier, and ended up not being able to make much progress towards justifying it. Just goes to show that there are Pro-IT folks that are willing to consider both sides. Its just that (IMHO) the pro-ender side is so weak, that its very frustrating trying to make sense of it without falling back on "horrible writing". 

[MegumiAzusa]

The orientation would be that destroy would be top left, synthesis left, and control bottom left.

[Golferguy758]

byne wrote...

Oh GolferGuy, I respected you so much before you went and added a MLP picture.

Now I dont even know what to think about you

Hah. I think it's an amusing show. lauren Faust, the creator, is pretty talented and has a knack for makign someting appeal to a larger audience than is normally expected.

The obsession some  people have over it frightens me, but every fandom has that I suppose. Don't think I'll ever be able to bleach my eyes of some of the things I've seen from some video game fans. *Shudder*

My little cousin had me watch it with her on her birthday after I graduated law school and I actually appreciated it more than I thought I would. It's a nice change of pace from dealing with seriously bad people so much. Smiling is good. I'm already going to have grey hair in like 6 years if work stays the way it is.

Best part is no one expects a fancy pants lawyer to appreciate something so...unexpected. 

To each their own though. 

Also still <3 you! Haha

[Simon_Says]

HellishFiend wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

I just realized something.

You remember those comparisons of the crucible platform to the dialogue wheel right?

Except, normally, unlockable dialogue options are on the left side.

Destroy could be the -paragon- option!

I'm not sure what you're suggesting with this. If we're supposed to view the options as if they were a dialog wheel (which I believe that we are), we still cant derive which is the "true paragon" option because that would imply that we know whether to rotate it clockwise or counterclockwise to orient it vertically.

Well, the normal system in dialogue is...
Paragon
Neutral
Renegade

Which matches the crucible wheel turned clockwise. What I just said that since dialogues (and here, choices) need to be unlocked with something like the morality bar (or in this case, EMS), the crucible wheel should be rotated counter-clockwise. In which case destroy becomes the paragon option, and the idea of apparent color mismatch that IT proposes may be supported this way.

It's weak, I know. I'm boozed. Sue me.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 27 avril 2012 - 03:53 .

[HellishFiend]

Simon_Says wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

I just realized something.

You remember those comparisons of the crucible platform to the dialogue wheel right?

Except, normally, unlockable dialogue options are on the left side.

Destroy could be the -paragon- option!

I'm not sure what you're suggesting with this. If we're supposed to view the options as if they were a dialog wheel (which I believe that we are), we still cant derive which is the "true paragon" option because that would imply that we know whether to rotate it clockwise or counterclockwise to orient it vertically.

Well, the normal system in dialogue is...
Paragon
Neutral
Renegade

Which matches the crucible wheel turned clockwise. What I just said that since dialogues (and here, choices) need to be unlocked with something like the morality bar (or in this case, EMS), the crucible wheel should be rotated counter-clockwise. In which case destroy becomes the paragon option, and the idea of apparent color mismatch that IT proposes may be supported this way.

I really dont think we can reasonably draw a conclusion as to which way the options should be rotated. There is no solid basis or precedent to draw upon. 

[Simon_Says]

HellishFiend wrote...

I really dont think we can reasonably draw a conclusion as to which way the options should be rotated. There is no solid basis or precedent to draw upon.

I edited in just before you replied...

It's weak, I know. I'm boozed. Sue me.

[HellishFiend]

Simon_Says wrote...



It's weak, I know. I'm boozed. Sue me.

It's ok, I forgive you , because that bit about the Reapers possibly being some kind of extension of a cosmic imperative was very thought-provoking. 

[Simon_Says]

I'm certainly proud of it. It'll probably be my last great idea for the year.

[Golferguy758]

Simon_Says wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

I just realized something.

You remember those comparisons of the crucible platform to the dialogue wheel right?

Except, normally, unlockable dialogue options are on the left side.

Destroy could be the -paragon- option!

I'm not sure what you're suggesting with this. If we're supposed to view the options as if they were a dialog wheel (which I believe that we are), we still cant derive which is the "true paragon" option because that would imply that we know whether to rotate it clockwise or counterclockwise to orient it vertically.

Well, the normal system in dialogue is...
Paragon
Neutral
Renegade

Which matches the crucible wheel turned clockwise. What I just said that since dialogues (and here, choices) need to be unlocked with something like the morality bar (or in this case, EMS), the crucible wheel should be rotated counter-clockwise. In which case destroy becomes the paragon option, and the idea of apparent color mismatch that IT proposes may be supported this way.

Pretty meta. Amusing thoughts though. Seems a bit of a stretch to me, though. Seems like one of those things that is just a coincidence and not part of a larger plan to me because of just how much analysing would have to be done to reach that point..

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar

Like the thought process behind it though! Definitely does make you go "Huh, that's cool"

[HellishFiend]

 

Simon_Says wrote...

I'm certainly proud of it. It'll probably be my last great idea for the year.

 

Hopefully you remember it tomorrow! Maybe you'll wake up next to Aria.....

..or in an elevator.

Modifié par HellishFiend, 27 avril 2012 - 03:58 .

[Simon_Says]

HellishFiend wrote...

..or in an elevator.

As long as it's not one that brings me to an obnoxious kid ruins my perfectly good hangover with whiny voice and terrible logic.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 27 avril 2012 - 03:59 .

[HellishFiend]

Simon_Says wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

..or in an elevator.

As long as it's not one that brings me to an obnoxious kid ruins my perfectly good hangover with whiny voice and terrible logic.

LOL! Damn, I missed a golden opportunity to say that myself....

[Golferguy758]

Simon_Says wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

..or in an elevator.

As long as it's not one where an obnoxious kid ruins my perfectly good hangover with whiny voice and terrible logic.

Psh. RGC's logic is infallible! How dare you question his artistic integrity!

[spotlessvoid]

HellishFiend wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...


The Crucible is there, but there has to be an environmentally suitable containment zone there for Shepard to exist. The base consideration is that there is some sort of field around this part of the Citadel. That is UNLESS the entire thing isn't real, but a dream. Is there proof for this, in this scenario? Maybe- if no organic has ever set foot there, how is it that the Crucible is specifically designed to interact with that part of the Citadel? It is possible that engineers could have used theoretical schematics of the Citadel, but highly unlikely if the opportunity arose to investigate personally to take measurements.

As to object manipulation, the Catalyst is either extremely limited or unable. If it had been able to, it is logical that the Catalyst would have simply over-ridden the Prothean alterations and opened up the Citadel Relay for the Reapers. As for the elivator and bridges, that's a big ????. Automation is possible, but that the Catalyst already is basically a huge logical fart, it's hard to say. He certainly claims that he can't affect the Reaper's and, as with the Control Panel, there are hints that biologicals are needed.

Do you think it's possible that TIM could control Shepards movement, but Harbinger/Starchild can't?

I actually think you made an argument in IDTs favor my friend.

Actually, what happened was that we got into a discussion about the face value context due to a random comment earlier, and ended up not being able to make much progress towards justifying it. Just goes to show that there are Pro-IT folks that are willing to consider both sides. Its just that (IMHO) the pro-ender side is so weak, that its very frustrating trying to make sense of it without falling back on "horrible writing". 

I saw that. I didn't have any constructive feedback, (Starchild is definitely illogical in more aspects than I care to recall) but it did make me think about something else.

If TIM is capable of making Shepard shoot Anderson, why can't Harbinger make Shepard do anything? Seems to really imply that the whole sequence is unreal

[Simon_Says]

Golferguy758 wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

..or in an elevator.

As long as it's not one where an obnoxious kid ruins my perfectly good hangover with whiny voice and terrible logic.

Psh. RGC's logic is infallible! How dare you question his artistic integrity!

Still obnoxious. And whiny.

[Rifneno]

Gah. Am I the only one who's never seen the Matrix? I just... I just can't even look at Keanu Reeves after Johnny Mnemonic. That was a theatrical equivalent of brain cancer.

[MegumiAzusa]

HellishFiend wrote...

 

Simon_Says wrote...

I'm certainly proud of it. It'll probably be my last great idea for the year.

 

Hopefully you remember it tomorrow! Maybe you'll wake up next to Aria.....

..or in an elevator.

Waking up next to Aria would certainly be very interesting.

[Golferguy758]

Rifneno wrote...

Gah. Am I the only one who's never seen the Matrix? I just... I just can't even look at Keanu Reeves after Johnny Mnemonic. That was a theatrical equivalent of brain cancer.

Watch the first one. It's quite good. Don't watch 2nd and 3rd ones unless you want to watched this happen: 

[Simon_Says]

spotlessvoid wrote...

If TIM is capable of making Shepard shoot Anderson, why can't Harbinger make Shepard do anything? Seems to really imply that the whole sequence is unreal

Because through Benezia and Paul Grayson we know that reaper control is obvious as coming from an external source.

Harbinger would be trying to convince Shepard to submit to indoctrination.

Ergo Harbinger wouldn't be so obvious. Also, in the Synthesis ending Shepard makes a mad dash for the beam. Who knows, maybe Harbinger helped him along.