57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvanfeather]

Part of me thinks that Bioware just wants the player to interpret the ending in their own way.

For myself, the more I think about it, I'm inclined to believe everything after the blast was an indoctrination attempt and the real win against the Reapers was destroy.

The Illusive Man believed he could control the Reapers, while Saren believed that their future was a fusion with them (synthesis). If you've read Mass Effect: Evolution, it shows that both of these characters came in contact with the same Reaper tech. While it's not explicitly stated in the comic/graphic novel, the event is likely the beginning of their indoctrination, the most visible evidence being their eyes. Their beliefs and actions since that point, support a Reaper victory.

Indoctrination was described as "a subtle whisper you can't ignore, that compels you to do things without knowing why." In ME2 when viewing the logs on the derelict Reaper, there is evidence that indoctrination also causes hallucinations, particularly of people that are already dead. These two points might explain the appearance of the catalyst and why there is no option to question the catalyst further on the choices. For the first time in the series, you are being asked to make an uninformed decision. At that point Shepard's only responds, "I don't know".

However, that said, it still leaves a lot of major gaps. (i.e. Does the fate of the war depend on Shepard not becoming Reaper agent?) But it's the start of an explanation that gives me a bit of hope at least.

[thenxtmarvlhero]

Another thing that should be pointed out is how throughout the game there's this point with how organics and synthetics CAN mesh together. You look at the discussions between EDI and Joker, with the Geth and the Quarians, hell, even with how Shep has a ton of electronics in him that almost makes him/her synthetic. With all this in the game, it seems odd that what BW has said is the "perfect" ending is where you destroy instead of synthesize. It goes against most of the story. It just seems that if that is the perfect ending, than it's just poor, poor writing.

[Tup3x]

Better be hallucination, dream or something. But I still want the real deal.

[Lugaidster]

Goddy10 wrote...

humes spork wrote...

Milvushina wrote...

While possible, to me that's really the weakest part of the indoctrination ending theory.

Yeah, that's what I'm getting at. The people pushing destroy as the only "correct" ending are making the assumption that self-sacrifice is an act of submission.

It is an act of submission if it is to guarantee the Reapers continued existence. They have never been a species that can be rationalised with.

This! Why would you control them? As much a renegade as you were in every single instance you had to talk to the reapers before you (shepard) specifically said that you'd find a way to destroy them. Why would you suddenly try to control them? Or worse, why would you suddenly trust him that you should just merge with synthetic life after making it abundantly clear throughout the trilogy that up-lifting or advancing a species will end up bad. Those are your (Shepard's) beliefs, and suddenly you abandon them? Because of some catalyst? That's why we don't believe for a second that anything but destruction is a correct choice. Besides, if it all ended there, explain the breathing scene.

[Leiha]

I might have misunderstood something.. People are claiming that Shep is wearing N7 armor at the end. Isn't that just a dog tag? It could have been hidden inside Shep's armor.

Did anyone find out where the Betrayal soundtrack plays, by the way?

[humes spork]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

What does this...have to do...with anything? I'm sorry they made the game terrible for your TV? 

I'm really not understanding the point here. The matters do not seem comparable to me.

The point is that by faking people out with a fake ending in the retail release and releasing an actual ending later as DLC, they'd be screwing people over who either don't have internet connections or don't take their consoles online for whatever reason. EA's pulled that type of move before -- using the prevalence of new technology as a rationalization to cease support for older technology -- such as forcing their games to run only in high def and screwing over standard definition players.

[blooregard]

BlackDragonBane wrote...

Milvushina wrote...

DangerSandler wrote...

Shepard DID have issues with indoctrination though. Remember after Arrival? He said that he was having nightmares/dreams/visions.

Was that only in the Arrival DLC?  I didn't play that one ...   :

My only problem with Arrival is the fact that not everyone, myself included, actually have played it yet, so headcanon for people using the indoctrination theory would be varied. Some Shepards would be more exposed to indoctrination than others.

  boarding the derelict reaper is considered to be universally canon as is the alpha relay explosion and staying to fight that reaper on rannoch. ultimately shepard has ALOT of personal time with reapers 

[jackncoke28]

The reason I feel that destroy is the correct choice is because
1. Synthesis was something indoctrinated saren wanted
2. Control was something indoctrinated TIM wanted

[Doctoglethorpe]

Devbo22 wrote...

I had a dream last night that I beat ME3 again and there were a lot more cutscenes at the end. Was I hallucinating the first time around?

Lets hope you just had a deja'vu. 

[Milvushina]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

For you maybe. The weakest part for me would have to be the scene with the old man and the kid which plays for all three endings. If it was a hallucination to make shepard feel they had a future or some such then it wouldn't have played for the destroy ending.

It doesn't give the feeling of a dream sequence, either. At least Shepard's treck after waking up in london has a groggy what's going on feeling. The ending scene doesn't.

I think that little epilogue just felt so weird and tacked-on that my brain ignored it totally.  

If the epilogues is real, and the indoctrination idea were true, then I think the epilogue would have played for the Destroy ending only.  People would be isolated in pockets when the relays blew, but they would have rebuilt and remembered Shepard.  However, if the Reapers didn't really leave in the other two endings, then the humans would have been harvested and that epilogue would not have played for Control or Merge. 

[Naschrakh1983]

By the gods... this topic had 117 pages when I went to bed last night at 3 AM (GMT +1)

[Dormin]

Well I'm accepting my defiance through bullets into space god as pulling a Saren and blowing myself away.

[Milvushina]

blooregard wrote...

 boarding the derelict reaper is considered to be universally canon as is the alpha relay explosion and staying to fight that reaper on rannoch. ultimately shepard has ALOT of personal time with reapers 

I agree, even without knowing all of the details about Arrival I thought Shepard had more than enough contact with Reapers to risk indoctrination.  

[humes spork]

Lugaidster wrote...

This! Why would you control them?

It's in the context of the scene.

Javik, the Catalyst, and Vendetta all explain that someone like TIM exists in every cycle -- someone who wants to use the Reapers for their own ends. Shepard doesn't attempt to use the Reapers for his or her own ends. Shepard uses the Catalyst to tell them to leave. One, final, order and that's it.

Why would an Indoctrinated person do only that? Why wouldn't they rationalize to themselves, for example, "well this order destroys the mass relays so I'll order them to rebuild the relay network then leave..." or "why don't I just order the Reapers to fire on each other..." or hell "I'll just give the Reapers a general shut-down order on the spot and we can reverse engineer them to steal all their tech!". Any of those things gives the Reapers an inroad to Indoctrinate someone.

Flat-out ordering them to leave and never return doesn't.

[killershotz]

From the moment you wake up from being shot by Harbinger, nothing makes sense anymore. There has to be something the Bioware is brewing up because why would they make the rest of the game epic, just to have a stupid conclusion like the one we say. I think that indoctrination theory may in fact be correct. Plus if you choose the destroy ending, how the heck is shepard alive? the citadel gets destroyed but at the end we see the body of shepard taking a breath.

[WizenSlinky0]

Milvushina wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

For you maybe. The weakest part for me would have to be the scene with the old man and the kid which plays for all three endings. If it was a hallucination to make shepard feel they had a future or some such then it wouldn't have played for the destroy ending.

It doesn't give the feeling of a dream sequence, either. At least Shepard's treck after waking up in london has a groggy what's going on feeling. The ending scene doesn't.

I think that little epilogue just felt so weird and tacked-on that my brain ignored it totally.  

If the epilogues is real, and the indoctrination idea were true, then I think the epilogue would have played for the Destroy ending only.  People would be isolated in pockets when the relays blew, but they would have rebuilt and remembered Shepard.  However, if the Reapers didn't really leave in the other two endings, then the humans would have been harvested and that epilogue would not have played for Control or Merge. 

Yeah it's a pretty terrible and pointless scene that Shepard's hot alien sex adventures are all some childs bedtime stories. But it does exist. It is there and it does play in all three endings which heavily suggests Shepard defeats the reapers in all three endings, not just the destroy.

Which kinda destroys a lot of the foundation of this theory. Though it reminds me of how easy it is to find evidence for something if you look hard enough. I'll say it has more going for it than most conspiracy theories but that might be the hope for better endings simmering somewhere deep in my soul and making me biased.

[Dormin]

[/quote]

It's in the context of the scene.

Javik, the Catalyst, and Vendetta all explain that someone like TIM exists in every cycle -- someone who wants to use the Reapers for their own ends. Shepard doesn't attempt to use the Reapers for his or her own ends. Shepard uses the Catalyst to tell them to leave. One, final, order and that's it.
ring them to leave and never return doesn't.
[/quote]




WTF why didn't that quote properly

Modifié par Dormin, 12 mars 2012 - 04:51 .

[tuzem2]

I think I made my peace with the ending. It's quite beautful actually.
I think all the anger, sadness and denial were because I lost Shepard who was basiaclly a representation of me, my personality, my beliefs, my love and hopes. And when "I" died, well of course I wouldn't want to belive that

I chose the Synthesis ending. I know you guys say that everything but destory is fullining the Reapers wishes. But when you think about it, it's not like that (in my opinion). I gfor example chose to save the Geth and then further in the story Tali said that the Geth we helping them settle and acustom themselved physically and biologically in their homeworld. I helped EDI develop feelings and sort of emotions and at the end she was grateful for it.

Remember the kid saying combining synthetic and organic is the next step in evlolution and Shepard replying "I don't know". The kid then elaborated asking "why not? syntethics are already a part of you - can you imagine a life without them?" Which is true - everyone in the world has at least the Omni-tool. Combining both seems the best solution.

Besides Destorying the Reapers means killing all synthetic - the Geth and EDI included. As much as I would like to live so I could have my happily-ever-after, I wouldn't want to destory other species (that's what the Reapers did).

Choosing Control means I am going to lose everything that I have (everything I am?). This in my opinion would all destory my personality which I guess is needed to "control" something in a way that you think is appropriate and will bring peace.

All options effectively destory the Mass Relays which were designed to make species evolve as the Reapers wanted them to. Yeah, they are kind of symbolic for the game, but destorying them is the only way to end the cycle, and all cycles for that matter - if you remove a part of a circle, it is no longer a circle A new way of life would begin because of that.

It is sad that Shepard died, but it is a heroic and sacarficial death - a death that saves the galaxy.

The part where the Normady crashed - whether is Shepard's dream that his most-cared-for people are alive or just what actually happened doesn't matter.

You aks - when did my teammates returned to the Normady and why is Joker currently travelling through a mass relay when they were all just at Earth? Well, there is no set timeline during the events at the Citadel and the result from Shepard sacraficing himself.

The final scene with the old guy and the child kind of doesn't make much sence at first. But when you think about it shows how Shepard has become a legend that lives generations past the events at the Citadel.

We get the good enfing - our love interest is safe, our squadmates as well AND we saved the galaxy, hence becoming a legend.

It tragically sad, yeah, but that's life.

Us being angry and sad is a good thing - it means we cared about our character (the tiny representation of ourselves). This is thanks to BioWare and the Mass Effect writers, developers, and so on.

Of course if the scenario where BioWare release a DLC that resurrects Shepard or something (ME2 anyone?) presents itself, I would be more than happy to see how Shepard is alive again.

Once we accept the fact that Shepard died, we will realize how wonderful, beautiful and meaningful this ending was

[rogueagent6]

Went back and checked the in-game codex. The following is quoted directly from the Indoctrination entry, paragraph 2:

"Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify it's signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind."

There it is, the whole ending is Shepard fighting those exact symptoms.

[HunterKYA]

vertibird1 wrote...

If it was a hallucination then what about the Normandy on the tropical planet? it kinda looks like Bioware intended it to be a real and final ending which sucks

It probably was  the Catalyst's attempt to convince Shepard that, by producing a vision of the Normandy high-tailing it away from Earth, with the allied forces still engaging the Reapers, it would be to induce the feeling that Shepard's friends had abandoned him/her, and should accept their fate.  It isn't difficult for Shepard to accept that, since with the Control or Synthesis endings, we don't see Shepard wake up after the dash to the Conduit, because s/he has been fully indoctrinated, leaving the galaxy to succumb to the Reapers.  

The Reapers had to find a way of stopping Shepard, because after throwing every manner of enemy at him/her, s/he has come out alive, leaving the Reapers with one final path: infiltrate Shepard's mind.  By dissuading Shepard from the inside, the Reapers could neautralize Shepard as a threat to their existence by flip-flopping everything s/he had come to believe up until then, making the Control or Synthesis options feel correct and Destroy feel like the least desirable choice.  This is where the player needs to think intuitively to every decision they'd made throughout each game, then they would realize that the options the Catalyst presents flies in the face of everything the player had heard or come to believe.  By using reverse psychology, with a dash of indoctrination, the Catalyst believes it can convince Shepard to go against everything s/he had come to believe, and in turn, helping the Reapers win the war.

Modifié par HunterKYA, 12 mars 2012 - 04:55 .

[Milvushina]

Lugaidster wrote...

This! Why would you control them? As much a renegade as you were in every single instance you had to talk to the reapers before you (shepard) specifically said that you'd find a way to destroy them. Why would you suddenly try to control them? Or worse, why would you suddenly trust him that you should just merge with synthetic life after making it abundantly clear throughout the trilogy that up-lifting or advancing a species will end up bad. Those are your (Shepard's) beliefs, and suddenly you abandon them? Because of some catalyst? That's why we don't believe for a second that anything but destruction is a correct choice. Besides, if it all ended there, explain the breathing scene.

This is exactly why I chose to destroy them!  And it's the only situation that makes me feel the most like Shepard, you know, picked the right answer.  Also, it is suspicious that it's requierd for the only ending that suggests Shep physically survived.  

There's still things that don't jibe, though.  I guess I'll just never know, unless Bioware does have something else up their sleeve.  

[Taesuun]

LenabotSE wrote...

Arrival is canon - whether you played the DLC or not. That's why Shepard's on trial to begin with. The game references it a few times. Overlord and Shadow Broker are also canon if you didn't play them, just without Shepard's involvement.

Incorrect, actually. If you don't play Arrival, another team accomplishes the same thing and you lose some war assets because of their casualties. Anderson also doesn't bring it up in the beginning of the game.

On topic:
I actually thought the ending rocked all the way until my squaddies for the last missions popped out of Normady in the end. I already thought I'd lost the game when the reaper beam hit, as my game was far from perfect setup and the conversations on Earth seemed to note this rather clearly. Fighting the last steps towards the Citadel beam was pretty damn awesome to be honest. When the Catalyst appeared, my first thought was that Shep hallucinates himself as child again. I still think that it would be much below average Bioware writing if that thing is "real".

Regardless, was little dissapointed to find out that apparently the missions and chat on Earth doesn't change with better war asset score. Gonna play another playthrough to make sure though. DeusEx HR had excatly the same epilogues regardless of your actions in the game, I'd expect better from Mass Effect.

Modifié par Taesuun, 12 mars 2012 - 05:10 .

[LenabotSE]

Yeah, but I've encounter the control ending in real life. I was acting up and my parents yelled, "GO TO YOUR ROOM."

And I did.

And then I came straight back out, because they didn't tell me how long to stay there.

You're telling the Reapers, the most advanced and probably most intelligent post-organic lifeforms in the entire galaxy, to go on a timeout and think about what they've done for an undisclosed amount of time. And you're expecting them to listen. Permanently. As if they're bound by simple programming that can in no way defy the ghost-in-the-shell version of Shepard.

Modifié par LenabotSE, 12 mars 2012 - 04:57 .

[LoveAsThouWilt]

I beg to differ the indoctrination hasn't been beaten. You have Saren and now The Illusive Man, whom both on different scales with different intentions altered themselves, which made the indoctrination of them both much stronger. And even so, Shepard is capable of talking both of them into killing themselves, for the harm they have done. Does not mean that is what Shepard would "have" to do. Just shows that indoctrination can be beaten. For TIM and Saren, they altered themselves personally which is why I think it had such a large effect on them. Where as Shepard, has not. He's human. He therefore could be completely capable of fighting against indoctrination, just as TIM and Saren had, and possibly with even greater success.

I still want to hold Bioware responsible in giving us closure. But I don't demand a new "ending". Thats just silly. I'm certain they have planned entirely for this backlash about the mysteriousness of the endings. They have another agenda going on behind the scenes, and it starts with getting people riled up for "more answers" meaning "more mass effect" meaning "more Commander Shepard"

[jackncoke28]

The idea of the indoctrination is that he is being lied to and made to think he's doing the right thing. Both Saren and TIM wanted what they felt was best. Just imagine them in that room faced with the same choices Shepard has. TIM chose control, Saren chose synthesis. destruction was the only that didntnseem to pray on sheps insecurity about being able to save everyone, which the star child's image was ment to convey