@ Auralius Carolus
Like many long time Mass Effect fans, my initial reaction to the ending of this trilogy was to stare blankly at my screen, stupefied, grasping at non-existent threads of logic. This was quickly followed by an explosion of words that can only be described as simultaneously eloquent and deeply profane. This was the ending? Dumbfounded and crestfallen, the more I thought things over, the more questions and plotholes came crashing down on me. I breathed in deep, exhaled slowly, quieted my wave of fury into a simmering rage and headed for the internet.
Over a hundred pages into Something Awful's Blasto killed Harbinger ME3 spoiler thread, and with the full weight of what a literal interpretation of the ending implied of Bioware gnawing at my psyche, I decided to start a new game on insanity importing my still recently completed me3 save. I couldn't get past Mars. So I returned to Something Awful, lurking for over a hundred more pages, trying to understand what Bioware had done to one of the three video game franchises I truly loved. Fallout, Half-life, and Mass Effect.
The first half of my very first post on this thread.
Since it's slow I'll pull a shameless repost.
Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory
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byne
, mars 10 2012 12:46
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#45227
Posté 27 avril 2012 - 08:18
Vahilor
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I allways had Ash and Javik walking out even after several reload trys.. and Ash is my LI.
#45228
Posté 27 avril 2012 - 08:21
Cecilia L
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This is a bit unrelated, but lots and lots of people on this forum seem as depressed as me and need to watch this video. Now.
And I don't care if it already has been posted a hundred times. It's so awesome.
And I don't care if it already has been posted a hundred times. It's so awesome.
Modifié par Cecilia L, 27 avril 2012 - 08:23 .
#45229
Posté 27 avril 2012 - 08:24
Earthborn_Shepard
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Cecilia L wrote...
This is a bit unrelated, but lots and lots of people on this forum seem as depressed as me and need to watch this video. Now.
And I don't care if it already has been posted a hundred times. It's so awesome.
Maybe that was Marauder Shields before.. before.. *sob*
#45230
Posté 27 avril 2012 - 08:26
spotlessvoid
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Marauder Shields may be my favorite internet meme of all time
#45231
Posté 27 avril 2012 - 08:29
Auralius Carolus
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spotlessvoid wrote...
@ Auralius Carolus
Like many long time Mass Effect fans, my initial reaction to the ending of this trilogy was to stare blankly at my screen, stupefied, grasping at non-existent threads of logic. This was quickly followed by an explosion of words that can only be described as simultaneously eloquent and deeply profane. This was the ending? Dumbfounded and crestfallen, the more I thought things over, the more questions and plotholes came crashing down on me. I breathed in deep, exhaled slowly, quieted my wave of fury into a simmering rage and headed for the internet.
Over a hundred pages into Something Awful's Blasto killed Harbinger ME3 spoiler thread, and with the full weight of what a literal interpretation of the ending implied of Bioware gnawing at my psyche, I decided to start a new game on insanity importing my still recently completed me3 save. I couldn't get past Mars. So I returned to Something Awful, lurking for over a hundred more pages, trying to understand what Bioware had done to one of the three video game franchises I truly loved. Fallout, Half-life, and Mass Effect.
The first half of my very first post on this thread.
Since it's slow I'll pull a shameless repost.
Ah yes, I remember when I used to write like that- with fluidity and grace, delivering the intent of words upon a rhythm which eluded prose. Then I became technical.
Anyway, when expectations are secured and immersion is achieved, it is not unthinkable that the engrossed individual will go through a mild state of shock when the perception securing the fantasy is shattered. It is odd to hear it coming from a video game, but not unthinkable.
#45232
Posté 27 avril 2012 - 08:34
gunslinger_ruiz
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Cecilia L wrote...
This is a bit unrelated, but lots and lots of people on this forum seem as depressed as me and need to watch this video. Now.
And I don't care if it already has been posted a hundred times. It's so awesome.
That's gotta be the funniest thing I've seen all day XD. Wonder if they can do one with all the species.
#45233
Posté 27 avril 2012 - 08:38
Auralius Carolus
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Cecilia L wrote...
This is a bit unrelated, but lots and lots of people on this forum seem as depressed as me and need to watch this video. Now.
And I don't care if it already has been posted a hundred times. It's so awesome.
The late 80's and early 90's produced some legendary music.
Those alien beings not resistant to awesome music likely developed a form of psychosis known as Haddaway Syndrome shortly after the humans were given an embassy on the Citadel.
#45234
Posté 27 avril 2012 - 08:40
Arian Dynas
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[quote]gunslinger_ruiz wrote...
Everything's been said for awhile now, but not everything's been discussed thoroughly I don't think. Not sure what we missed though (I miss a lot of pages). Maybe Arian will come in and revive something, meanwhile I think I'll hit some multiplayer.[/quote]
I heard my name... I know you're talking about me in here...
Still working on my paper, but I need to keep sane, so I came here to procrastinate a while.
Anywho...
ARISE ARISE!!!!!!!! ARISE SOLDIERS OF DARKMOON (wait...)
[quote]Golferguy758 wrote...
[quote]byne wrote...
Oh GolferGuy, I respected you so much before you went and added a MLP picture.
Now I dont even know what to think about you[/quote]
Hah. I think it's an amusing show. lauren Faust, the creator, is pretty talented and has a knack for makign someting appeal to a larger audience than is normally expected.
The obsession some people have over it frightens me, but every fandom has that I suppose. Don't think I'll ever be able to bleach my eyes of some of the things I've seen from some video game fans. *Shudder*
My little cousin had me watch it with her on her birthday after I graduated law school and I actually appreciated it more than I thought I would. It's a nice change of pace from dealing with seriously bad people so much. Smiling is good. I'm already going to have grey hair in like 6 years if work stays the way it is.
Best part is no one expects a fancy pants lawyer to appreciate something so...unexpected.
To each their own though. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]
Also still [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/heart.png[/smilie] you! Haha
[/quote]
Ahh Golferguy, with the exception of my father (whom is a paralegal, and far more interesting than his job descriptions imply) you remain one of the few lawyers I've ever liked, not featured on Boston Legal.
As for MLP... eh. I liked Fruits Basket and Red String, so what can I say on the suitation?
[quote]Rifneno wrote...
Gah. Am I the only one who's never seen the Matrix? I just... I just can't even look at Keanu Reeves after Johnny Mnemonic. That was a theatrical equivalent of brain cancer.[/quote]
No, you got company, it's just something I never got around to.
I've never watched the Princess Bride or A Game of Thrones either. AGoT I'll be starting on soon though. Love Sean Bean.
Yes, my Geek cred is ruined [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]
[quote]HellishFiend wrote...
The original Matrix is a good movie in almost every way. The sequels were good mainly for the special effects and directing (though some scenes did have some questionable directing). [/quote]
The reason being, the creators wanted to make a trilogy, a sequel and a prequel. Well Hollywood bigwigs didn't think people would wanna see a prequel, so they told them to make two sequels when they only had enough story for one.
Ooops.
[quote]HellishFiend wrote...
LOL!! You're on a roll.
[/quote]
Then he should butter himself and slip on out. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]
[quote]Simon_Says wrote...
[quote]MegumiAzusa wrote...
[quote]Golferguy758 wrote...
Why do you think Shep walks so slow at the end. Walk of shame, man. Walk of shame.[/quote]
I loled about that.[/quote]
He doesn't even buy Shepard dinner or anything. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]
[/quote]
Really? I thought he was walking funny for other reasons...
[quote]pirate1802 wrote...
I was thinking, what is the implications of the dreams Shepard is having? Certainly she has seen much more terrible things than a kid dying. Why this one kid would haunt her so much? This isn't a psychological horror game where these kinds of tricks are used. Using a nightmare in a ME game is just out of place unless it serves some other purpose.
Also, on the third and final dream; There are two Shepards. One who is chasing the kid and the other whom the kid finds at the end; that Shepard looks at you (the other Shepard) then the kid and she burns. Could it signify Shepard finally giving in to indoctrination? In the earlier dreams the kid would bun alone, now Shepard is burning too.
All this has surely been discussing before, I'm just trying to figure things out by myself xD[/quote]
Someone also mentioned doppelgangers as a sign of EMS/ultrasonic exposure, which also is a real word cause of many hauntings. Guess what is the primary transmission method of indoctrination? (Evolutionary thing, low sonic pulses remind us of the growls of hunting cats, which means our bodies react with chills and feelings of unreasonable panic. Similar effects caused by low level EMS, which also effects our minds.)
EDIT: Ninja'd. Sorta. but **** it, I wrote this anyway, so I'm gonna post it goddamn it!
[quote]Simon_Says wrote...
I'm certainly proud of it. It'll probably be my last great idea for the year.[/quote]
And it's similar to mine own theory that they veiw themselves as the end of evolution (We are the Harbinger of your ascendance anyone?)
And now a few things I said in the past about my Reaper theory, since I need to make it even harder for people to catch up in a timely manner;
[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...
Also, shameless self-promoting bump! [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/w00t.png[/smilie]
[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...
Also, an interesting thing I noticed. During the fight with him, one of the things Kai Leng says is "We evolve, or we die" recall that Leng is fully indoctrinated. A bit more fodder for the "Reapers see themselves as the end of evolution" theory.
[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...
I've been thinking about it, and I think I've got the Reapers figured out.
Here's the "birth" of the Reapers in my opinion;
Long ago in the Milky Way, a species arises, skilled in both science and war, they are among the first to discover the Mass Effect and move out into the stars. They make many enemies along the way, perhaps even forming an empire in the process, seeking to integrate others into their might, perhaps seeing their wars as a sort of sick philanthrophism, granting might to the weak, and unity to the individual, but in the end, they are pushed back to their home world, a dying rock, exhausted by it's population. Calamity strikes, quickly and effectively, leaving them with little time.
They realize they must leave, or they will face extinction, there is no time to take everyone with them via ship, they simply don't have the means, and would far prefer to avoid becoming an endangered species in a galaxy out for their blood. So they turn to technology to preserve both their strength, and their legacy.
Their grim sciences which made them masters of what they saw, are now put to use saving their species from the ravages of natural selection. They come to a realization. Though they will never transport their bodies off, nothing precludes the traveling of the mind.
Repurposing the flagship of their fleet, the greatest of their ships, they begin to improve it, making it a worthy vessel for their continued existence, though they find themselves lacking for materials. Turning again to desperation, they use their own bodies, their sciences having made them as equally skilled in the manipulation of flesh as the manipulation of metal.
Finally, their ship is all but complete, when a mighty scientist and military mind comes to an important realization. What if the ship is damaged? She will need physical crew to repair her, and there shall be no physical crew remaining from their great work's completion.
He finds the soloution. Their species is known for the skill at manipulating the minds of others, a technology they long discovered, and one they integrate into every aspect of their ship's technology, a power that will allow them to go to war, and if ever is needed, melt down and integrate whatever building materials they need.
Thus, with the collected minds of an entire species embodied in one physical form, they leave behind their dying planet, the minds forming into one gestalt entity. And thus is born Harbinger.
Harbinger revels in his new form, a single mind, formed of many. He chooses to take this opportunity to settle old scores, using the mightiest capital ship that ever has, or ever will be seen.
After facing his own near destruction, Harbinger comes to the realization that alone, he is vulneruable.
He comes to the realization that HE is the pinnacle of creation, the greatest of all beings that has ever existed, or ever will exist. He also realizes that his is a form that all others should aspire to, NAY! A form they should be FORCED into if need be.
Forcing other species into a form such as his is doing them a kindness, allowing them the perfection of a form like his own. He conquers several of his old enemies, turning the greatest of them into capital ships, while others, those he finds more pathetic and simple, are merely made into his destroyers. Animals of all shapes and descriptions are not exempt either, rather than leaving them to die on a planet with a shattered biosphere, he creates the first Troop Transports and Processing Ships ships from their raw materials, beginning the creation of his armada.
Finally, with a galaxy stripped of his enemies, both great and small. Harbinger finds himself and his fleet without purpose, their war won forever. He then comes to a realization, life will arise again in the Milky Way, more great species will be born to accomplish great things as his own did. He could exterminate all life now if he chose.
Instead, he chooses to grant them the kindness of perfection, the opportunity to rise to his level, the peak of evolution. Though he becomes aware, they will certainly become a threat to him, so he chooses to do what his species was know best for, and turns to science. He realizes that if he provides an easy, accessable route for them, they will take it, giving him a method of control oever them. And so, the Reapers as they have now termed themselves, begin to sow the seeds of their crop of flesh, creating the Mass Relays, repurposing old enemies as the Keepers, and preparing to wait for a new crop to rise...
[/quote]
[/quote]
[/quote]
[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...
[quote]spotlessvoid wrote...
Clearly, the reapers/starchild are not empathetic to other sentient life forms. Absolutely no care for the suffering of living beings is shown. Organic civilization may not be as advanced, but it is self aware. This capacity for abstract thought makes the humans to ants = reapers to humans line of reasoning flat out false. Since there is no apparent inherent need for organic life existing in the galaxy and the reapers/starchild are clearly not benevolent towards organic life, it obviously implies that reaper/starchild motivations are driven by self interest. This totally debunks the idea that reapers/starchild are acting on behalf of organic life.
Based on the fact that they don't wipe out ALL organic life and return in 50k year cycles, as opposed to when the need arises, my assumption is that they harvest organic life for sustenance. Whatever that specifically means I have no idea, but the Reapers/starchild are doing this for selfish reasons and not out of compassion or altruism. Starchild is either lying or some broken rogue AI from some long forgotten age. What he states is not only a textbook example of circular logic, it is undeniably contradicted by the Reapers actions. [/quote]
The thing about that, they don't see themselves as killing us. They beleive they are helping our final evolution along.
"I am the Harbinger of your Perfection."
"You are bacteria."
"Evolution cannot be stopped."
"Embrace Perfection."
"Surrender your form to us."
"I am the Harbinger of your ascendance!"
"We are your genetic destiny."
"Progress cannot be halted."
You are arrogant, Shepard."
"We are your destiny."
All quotes from Harbinger's own mouth. They clearly see individuals unimportant except where they can derive benefits from them. They beleive mankind has a destiny to fulfill.[/quote]
[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...
[quote]spotlessvoid wrote...
Some villains do it for personal gain or carnal pleasure and completely disregard any consequences their behavior has on others[/quote]
Doesn't mean they see themselves as evil though. A good villian in that sort of suitation either sees other people as less important than himself, or "not real people" (see Batman villian Victor Sszaz for an excellent example of this) ore they justify it in their own minds with phrases like "everyone is out for themselves, I'm just being like everyone else."
They're absolutely wrong, but in their own minds, they beleive they are in the right. Good and Evil aren't real things, speaking objectively, it's the result of a conflict of moralities. Life doesn't follow D&D alignments unfortunately. Though personally, I usually don't think about it. I just do what I think is right.
[/quote]
[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...
[quote]gunslinger_ruiz wrote...
[quote]spotlessvoid wrote...
why would the reapers keep setting us back 50,000 years? If they are worried about dark energy or us destroying the galaxy, why not just wipe out organic life back to primitive form? Obviously they need advanced civilizations to harvest. that clearly implies a selfish motivation to their actions.
Starchild is full of it or crazy[/quote]
Possible they don't want competition in terms of AI and technology, anything past 50,000 years might have proven to be too costly for them to harvest. Also possible they just like the number 50,000.
[/quote]
I don't think they're selfish about it actually. As you can see from my own theory, I think it's a kind of sick philanthrophism. They see themselves as perfect ("I wish you could see it as I do Shepard... it's so... perfect...") and want to share their perfection with others, YOU are the arrogant little organic defying their grand master plan ("You are arrogant Shepard.") the pretentious little child who thinks he knows better than they, will all their millenia of experience, not to mention far more "processing power" in one little tentacle than you have in your whole head.
Creating new Reapers is the goal, perfecting Organic life and protecting it forever from the ravages of time and the static, unchanging, ungrowing synthetics, whom are bound by their programming (see the irony?) it also makes the process more effiecent and quick in the end, with less waste. YOU are the one who is being selfish as far as they are concerned, more concerned with your own life and opinions than the lives of everyone else.
Really, the theme I THINK I see here is that organics and synthetics aren't so different. We've been "programmed" by the Reapers (every 50,000 years we act the same, and die) just as much as synthetics are, and now, we, like EDI are altering our programming. The Reapers know us very well, every time they use the same tricks, the same forms of psychological warfare, because they are all common to organics, our very most base parts. And now we are the cycle that manages to spit in the face of that.
[/quote]
And now, a few things that I feel warrant more discussion, and to take up more of your valuabl goldbricking time.
[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...
Something just occurred to me.
Husks are shown (when you shoot 'em open) to have their brains primarily intact, correct?
For a while I was wondering how it was that Reapers could incorporate the minds of the people they kill into the nascent Reaper, especially since they use so many in the creation of Husks.
Then I realized, it's like what happened to Shepard, their brains are preserved, almost as though in formaldehyde, until the Husk is killed. Then, the brain itself is rendered down into material for building, and the content of the brain is copied, the neural pathways( which a Blue Box mimics, it's own unique electrical currents bearing similarities to synaptic pathways) Shepard was able to be brought back because his neural pathways had not degraded.
It also explains why a head-shot works on them, the brain is a necessity still, in an otherwise dead body.
A few things I noticed playing through again.
In the first dream, for a split second, the trees look like neurons.
When speaking to Vega in the Embassies, he also says "It's like this place wants you to forget" if you choose to investigate.
And yet more fodder for my own personal theory that we'll see either Collector based DLC, the fact that Vega is really the only fella without his own quest, and he has some serious hangups with the Collectors. A possible theory is that the DLC would be bundled with the anime dvd.
Especially considering, guess who's the star in the upcoming Mass Effect anime? That's right, Lt. James Vega.
A few other things that came to mind, mostly out of the mouth of TIM; "This is the way Humanity must evolve." yet more references to the reapers being "the pinnacle of evolution."
Shepard's response to TIM in the finale; power you shouldn't be able to use, sounds alot like his brand spanking new plot convenient power to control, don't it?
Synthesis, some people have pointed it out a few times before, but it finally clicked for me, that Synthesis bears not only the description of becoming a Reaper, it also contains MORE evolution aspects, considered by the Guardian, the final evolution... just like the Reapers themselves.
Also, I noticed TIM uses a predator to commit suicide... just like Saren.
And since it got buried without much discussion, I'll point out about how at the end, the sound guys (usually very neurotic about this sort of thing) seemed to check out, Shepard's voice in the final scene before the Guardian is practically separate from the rest of the sound he makes, almost like a voiceover
And speaking of voices, looked at the codex again; the whispers fit "alien voices in the mind" pretty well, don't they?
[quote]gunslinger_ruiz wrote...
[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...
A few things I noticed playing through again.
In the first dream, for a split second, the trees look like neurons.
When speaking to Vega in the Embassies, he also says "It's like this place wants you to forget" if you choose to investigate.
And yet more fodder for my own personal theory that we'll see either Collector based DLC, the fact that Vega is really the only fella without his own quest, and he has some serious hangups with the Collectors. A possible theory is that the DLC would be bundled with the anime dvd.
Especially considering, guess who's the star in the upcoming Mass Effect anime? That's right, Lt. James Vega.[/quote]
I remember someone a few hundred pages ago brought up the dream trees looking like neurons when you first see them at that angle. I think a few Theorists "dismissed" that claim but I believe him/you, they look almost too similar for mere coincidence and I really don't like using the word "coincidence" to describe more than one thing in such a story. I'm a stong believer in nothing going to waste in a good story, everything having a meaning or some significance, or at least everything in an important part of the story such as these Nightmares.
I brought up the Citadel potentially being a hub for Indoctrination a few pages ago (1500 something or so) and someone (maybe you arian?) mentioned it was already discussed earlier in the thread. Your squadmate convos add credit to it,
"In here you can almost forget about the war."
"It's like they want you to forget."
"It's all wrong, like they're hiding something."
"Everyone's walking around in a daze."
I'd go on if my memory was any better, you'd think with 3 and a half playthroughs I'd have it half memorized by now.
[/quote]
Indeed, I agree with you completely, in fact, I agree so much it has it's own terms associated with it,
The Law of Conservation of Detail; meaning you only put something in if it enhances the quality or tone of your story, meaning that in a well written story, nothing is put in without purpose, even if that purpose is only to enhance mood.
Chekov's Gun; a term from Russian playwritght Anton Chekov, whom claimed that if you mention something in a story, then it must be significant later on, taking the example of a playwright mentioning a gun in the first act, if they follow Chekov's Gun, then the gun must be fired in the 3rd act. In short, if something is put into a story, it must be used, or have it's significance revealed.
Red Herring; a term used for putting in items that seem to be Chekov's Guns, but in the end are actually unimportant to the story.
Macguffin; coined by Alfred hitchcock, a Macguffin is a plot device used to drive the story, usually an item. it differentiates itself from a Chekov's Gun or a Red Herring by both appearing to be important, and actually being important, unlike a Chekov's Gun, which is important only in hindsight, and a Red Herring, which is eventually revealed to be unimportant.
In short, good writers don't do things unintentionally, and no one can deny, Bioware are not only good writers, even BAD writers wouldn't be able to put so many seemingly insignificant things that add up by accident. The statistics are against it.
And no, I will admit, I was not the first to posit the "Citadel has a light, cowing indoctrination wave" theory, and at first I found it hokey. But in the end... well, Indoctrination has a real world basis, so does a pacifying sub sonic sound. And no one can deny, it would be in the Reapers best interests if everyone on the Citadel were cowed and easy to fight.
[quote]Ravereth wrote...
Hello guys, I found THAT really interesting, but maybe I'm just seeing conections to IT where I shouldn't? *snip*[/quote]
[quote]Amelyn wrote...
I just wanted to post these links as they may help with evidence of Shepard being in London during the breath scene.
I played with the levels on the breath scene pic to lighten up the scene as it was very dark. The concrete here in the scene is identical to the london concrete in a previous scene, even down to the markings, lines, etc. Just wanted to show the comparison.
http://imageshack.us...donconcrete.jpg
http://imageshack.us...eneconcrete.jpg
[/quote]
The concrete here from London is exactly the same in appearance as that in the breath scene. Also, we looked more closely at the actual reaper tubes themselves and they were formed of many smaller cables wrapped with a spiral patterned covering, kind of like the things you use to wrap young saplings.
Personally, from my point of veiw, ME3 is VERY VERY much for their long time fans, seeing those favorite moments with Mordin and Garrus, falls flat if you don't know who they are going in. That and the explanations for n00bs suck. Probably intentionaly, so they can subtly encourage people "Hey, go back and buy these REALLY good games."
Also, for why they would give the EC out for free.. one, PR, it looks good in the end. and makes EA seem "not so bad after all." and two, they will likely give it for free to everyone with a current copy of ME3. Anyone who buys used will have to pay for it, just like Cerberus Network.
[/quote]
[quote]balance5050 wrote...
[quote]Golferguy758 wrote...
Problem with the "End of the Matrix" line is that it could be referring to the end of the 3rd matrix. Y'know, the one where Neo sacrificed himself to ensure peace between humans and the robots? Seems similar to Synthesis in a way. Both coming to a peaceful solution through the sacrifice of one.
[/quote]
Well I certainly hope it was the first one, where Neo gets shot and dies, but then realizes that it was just in the matrix and the rules can be bent/broken.
[/quote]
As was pointed out, the notes state "End of the first Matrix + Brave New World"
Being entirely honest, never having read it, could someone explain for me how Brave New World relates?
[quote]byne wrote...
[quote]HellishFiend wrote...
[quote]MegumiAzusa wrote...
[quote]byne wrote...
What I wanna know is why Joker didnt even MENTION the Batarian fleet.
Balak said I had his fleet's support.[/quote]
Bah Batarians... just let the Reapers reap them and all is good.[/quote]
HEY! Have you no sensitivity or understanding? For your information, I'll have you know that....
....they are actually quite good in the multiplayer game. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/happy.png[/smilie]
[/quote]
I'm still sad I never got a batarian squadmate.
They should make Balak recruitable.
I think the interaction between him and Shepard would be very interesting.
He'd be like an even bigger jerkass version of Javik.
[/quote]
I LOVED to hate Balak. Going into the mission, I knew he was involved somehow, but I wasn't sure how, I was planning on killing that son of a ****, it was going to be something I took a great deal of pleasure in, but the moment that he starts telling me about the Batarian Fleet, I immediately went "DAMN IT! I NEED THIS GUY AND I HATE THAT FACT SO MUCH! AUGH!" I spent the next 5 minutes just muttering "I hate him I HATE HIM, but goddamn it I need him! I HATE HIM!" to myself. It was interesting to find that I needed a guy I hated SO ****ING much on my side.
[quote]Simon_Says wrote...
[quote]HellishFiend wrote...
Yeah, there is a distinct lack of a "vindictive, bitter A-hole that is hilarious despite his attempts to be mean" throughout the trilogy, and a Batarian could possibly have fit that role perfectly. [/quote]
Commander Shepard has become a legend by ending the reaper threat. Now you can continue to build that legend through further gameplay and downloadable content.
[/quote]
Damn right, put in a request.
Which brings back an idea I had a while back...
I pointed out that Javik apparently, mostly came about because of fan desire for a squadmate "Prothy the Prothean" at some point, so the meme was eventually codified into reality.
Well... people LOVE Marauder Shields...
In the end, an old enemy (can't figure who would be killed every game around, other than Saren, and we know HE'S not an option) ressurectted by Reaper tech, his body repurposed and raised from the dead to act as a autonomous field general, a new form of tactical command unit, the first and only of his class, with enough of his remaining personality and will to break free, eventually turning against his masters, yet now, faced with the fact that he is, in a word, a monster, not able to fit into society any more than he could return to the Reapers, stuck as the walking ambulatory corpse of a hated enemy or a trusted friend...
That could be quite a squad mate if done well. Maybe even a repurposed Batarian. Or, who knows, Saren, if they could work out a sufficient excuse. After all, the fans did it with Irenicus, why not Saren?
[quote]Auralius Carolus wrote...
[quote]Dracorequiem wrote...
[quote]Auralius Carolus wrote...
[quote]HellishFiend wrote...
The problem is that the implications of the entire starchild sequence (his logical fallacies aside), including everything both you and I have mentioned, are all self-contradictory. You do a good job of pointing that out yourself in the first paragraph. This discussion originated from attempting to justify the face value context, which we obviously cant do. Even pro-enders cant, because their justifications are mistakes, oversights, and bad writing on the part of the developers.
[/quote]
Which is the difference between us and them. We tend to be analytical, creative, and willing to believe that others- in this case the designers- are capable of sharing those traits with us.[/quote]
I think what really defines IT supporters is our faith in the competency of the writing staff. We see all these horrible mistakes and think... this is so bad it HAS to be done on purpose.
[/quote]
Faith aside, history suggests that there has not been a significant change in the Bioware design team from ME1-3. Most design elements that have evolved/changed have been reactionary to consumer demand. Yet who gets blamed? Electronic Arts, (admittedly, I've seen EA pull some stunts before and I still enjoy ragging on them
), however- in past years- I've seen several noteworthy EA labels increase in overall quality, suggesting that the "Corperate Overlords" that people love to hate, are potentially scapegoats.
That's, quite possibly, what lead me to IT- I simply don't fall for the class warfare "Hate the Big Guy" narrative. Even as complex as the corperate scene can be, there had to be something logical to explain this and then... an AHA! Moment. Narrative subterfuge. After investigation, it adds up.[/quote]
Agreed. EA is greedy, not stupid or evil, they're a corporation, not Satan.
[quote]HellishFiend wrote...
[quote]spotlessvoid wrote...
[quote]Auralius Carolus wrote...
The Crucible is there, but there has to be an environmentally suitable containment zone there for Shepard to exist. The base consideration is that there is some sort of field around this part of the Citadel. That is UNLESS the entire thing isn't real, but a dream. Is there proof for this, in this scenario? Maybe- if no organic has ever set foot there, how is it that the Crucible is specifically designed to interact with that part of the Citadel? It is possible that engineers could have used theoretical schematics of the Citadel, but highly unlikely if the opportunity arose to investigate personally to take measurements.
As to object manipulation, the Catalyst is either extremely limited or unable. If it had been able to, it is logical that the Catalyst would have simply over-ridden the Prothean alterations and opened up the Citadel Relay for the Reapers. As for the elivator and bridges, that's a big ????. Automation is possible, but that the Catalyst already is basically a huge logical fart, it's hard to say. He certainly claims that he can't affect the Reaper's and, as with the Control Panel, there are hints that biologicals are needed.[/quote]
Do you think it's possible that TIM could control Shepards movement, but Harbinger/Starchild can't?
I actually think you made an argument in IDTs favor my friend. [/quote]
Actually, what happened was that we got into a discussion about the face value context due to a random comment earlier, and ended up not being able to make much progress towards justifying it. Just goes to show that there are Pro-IT folks that are willing to consider both sides. Its just that (IMHO) the pro-ender side is so weak, that its very frustrating trying to make sense of it without falling back on "horrible writing". [/quote]
And this remains the crux of my own problems.
Logic tells me EA is smart, they won't kill their golden goose of a franchise. Logic also tells me that Bioware is excellent at their jobs, creating some of the finest videogame stories of all time. Logic also informs me that they know their necks are on the line, and also are aware of all that IDT offers them, the fact that if they can't save this suitation, the EA stockholders would kill them, logic also points out the evidence that we have gathered, the London concrete, the breath scene, the explosion, the child, the notes, the press releases, the panel's comments on IDT at Pax,
even the things that get me doubting can also be dismissed logically, like Gamble's tweet.
But unfortunatley, just as much as I beleive in logic, I also beleive in stupidity, and unfortunately, stupidity defies logic. That's the only way I can see IDT as being wrong, Bioware was just struck by complete stupidity. Someone please tell me that a moment of stupid just doesn't strike from the sky.
Everything's been said for awhile now, but not everything's been discussed thoroughly I don't think. Not sure what we missed though (I miss a lot of pages). Maybe Arian will come in and revive something, meanwhile I think I'll hit some multiplayer.[/quote]
I heard my name... I know you're talking about me in here...
Still working on my paper, but I need to keep sane, so I came here to procrastinate a while.
Anywho...
ARISE ARISE!!!!!!!! ARISE SOLDIERS OF DARKMOON (wait...)
[quote]Golferguy758 wrote...
[quote]byne wrote...
Oh GolferGuy, I respected you so much before you went and added a MLP picture.
Now I dont even know what to think about you[/quote]
Hah. I think it's an amusing show. lauren Faust, the creator, is pretty talented and has a knack for makign someting appeal to a larger audience than is normally expected.
The obsession some people have over it frightens me, but every fandom has that I suppose. Don't think I'll ever be able to bleach my eyes of some of the things I've seen from some video game fans. *Shudder*
My little cousin had me watch it with her on her birthday after I graduated law school and I actually appreciated it more than I thought I would. It's a nice change of pace from dealing with seriously bad people so much. Smiling is good. I'm already going to have grey hair in like 6 years if work stays the way it is.
Best part is no one expects a fancy pants lawyer to appreciate something so...unexpected.
To each their own though. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]
Also still [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/heart.png[/smilie] you! Haha
[/quote]
Ahh Golferguy, with the exception of my father (whom is a paralegal, and far more interesting than his job descriptions imply) you remain one of the few lawyers I've ever liked, not featured on Boston Legal.
As for MLP... eh. I liked Fruits Basket and Red String, so what can I say on the suitation?
[quote]Rifneno wrote...
Gah. Am I the only one who's never seen the Matrix? I just... I just can't even look at Keanu Reeves after Johnny Mnemonic. That was a theatrical equivalent of brain cancer.[/quote]
No, you got company, it's just something I never got around to.
I've never watched the Princess Bride or A Game of Thrones either. AGoT I'll be starting on soon though. Love Sean Bean.
Yes, my Geek cred is ruined [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]
[quote]HellishFiend wrote...
The original Matrix is a good movie in almost every way. The sequels were good mainly for the special effects and directing (though some scenes did have some questionable directing). [/quote]
The reason being, the creators wanted to make a trilogy, a sequel and a prequel. Well Hollywood bigwigs didn't think people would wanna see a prequel, so they told them to make two sequels when they only had enough story for one.
Ooops.
[quote]HellishFiend wrote...
LOL!! You're on a roll.
[/quote]
Then he should butter himself and slip on out. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]
[quote]Simon_Says wrote...
[quote]MegumiAzusa wrote...
[quote]Golferguy758 wrote...
Why do you think Shep walks so slow at the end. Walk of shame, man. Walk of shame.[/quote]
I loled about that.[/quote]
He doesn't even buy Shepard dinner or anything. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]
[/quote]
Really? I thought he was walking funny for other reasons...
[quote]pirate1802 wrote...
I was thinking, what is the implications of the dreams Shepard is having? Certainly she has seen much more terrible things than a kid dying. Why this one kid would haunt her so much? This isn't a psychological horror game where these kinds of tricks are used. Using a nightmare in a ME game is just out of place unless it serves some other purpose.
Also, on the third and final dream; There are two Shepards. One who is chasing the kid and the other whom the kid finds at the end; that Shepard looks at you (the other Shepard) then the kid and she burns. Could it signify Shepard finally giving in to indoctrination? In the earlier dreams the kid would bun alone, now Shepard is burning too.
All this has surely been discussing before, I'm just trying to figure things out by myself xD[/quote]
Someone also mentioned doppelgangers as a sign of EMS/ultrasonic exposure, which also is a real word cause of many hauntings. Guess what is the primary transmission method of indoctrination? (Evolutionary thing, low sonic pulses remind us of the growls of hunting cats, which means our bodies react with chills and feelings of unreasonable panic. Similar effects caused by low level EMS, which also effects our minds.)
EDIT: Ninja'd. Sorta. but **** it, I wrote this anyway, so I'm gonna post it goddamn it!
[quote]Simon_Says wrote...
I'm certainly proud of it. It'll probably be my last great idea for the year.[/quote]
And it's similar to mine own theory that they veiw themselves as the end of evolution (We are the Harbinger of your ascendance anyone?)
And now a few things I said in the past about my Reaper theory, since I need to make it even harder for people to catch up in a timely manner;
[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...
Also, shameless self-promoting bump! [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/w00t.png[/smilie]
[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...
Also, an interesting thing I noticed. During the fight with him, one of the things Kai Leng says is "We evolve, or we die" recall that Leng is fully indoctrinated. A bit more fodder for the "Reapers see themselves as the end of evolution" theory.
[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...
I've been thinking about it, and I think I've got the Reapers figured out.
Here's the "birth" of the Reapers in my opinion;
Long ago in the Milky Way, a species arises, skilled in both science and war, they are among the first to discover the Mass Effect and move out into the stars. They make many enemies along the way, perhaps even forming an empire in the process, seeking to integrate others into their might, perhaps seeing their wars as a sort of sick philanthrophism, granting might to the weak, and unity to the individual, but in the end, they are pushed back to their home world, a dying rock, exhausted by it's population. Calamity strikes, quickly and effectively, leaving them with little time.
They realize they must leave, or they will face extinction, there is no time to take everyone with them via ship, they simply don't have the means, and would far prefer to avoid becoming an endangered species in a galaxy out for their blood. So they turn to technology to preserve both their strength, and their legacy.
Their grim sciences which made them masters of what they saw, are now put to use saving their species from the ravages of natural selection. They come to a realization. Though they will never transport their bodies off, nothing precludes the traveling of the mind.
Repurposing the flagship of their fleet, the greatest of their ships, they begin to improve it, making it a worthy vessel for their continued existence, though they find themselves lacking for materials. Turning again to desperation, they use their own bodies, their sciences having made them as equally skilled in the manipulation of flesh as the manipulation of metal.
Finally, their ship is all but complete, when a mighty scientist and military mind comes to an important realization. What if the ship is damaged? She will need physical crew to repair her, and there shall be no physical crew remaining from their great work's completion.
He finds the soloution. Their species is known for the skill at manipulating the minds of others, a technology they long discovered, and one they integrate into every aspect of their ship's technology, a power that will allow them to go to war, and if ever is needed, melt down and integrate whatever building materials they need.
Thus, with the collected minds of an entire species embodied in one physical form, they leave behind their dying planet, the minds forming into one gestalt entity. And thus is born Harbinger.
Harbinger revels in his new form, a single mind, formed of many. He chooses to take this opportunity to settle old scores, using the mightiest capital ship that ever has, or ever will be seen.
After facing his own near destruction, Harbinger comes to the realization that alone, he is vulneruable.
He comes to the realization that HE is the pinnacle of creation, the greatest of all beings that has ever existed, or ever will exist. He also realizes that his is a form that all others should aspire to, NAY! A form they should be FORCED into if need be.
Forcing other species into a form such as his is doing them a kindness, allowing them the perfection of a form like his own. He conquers several of his old enemies, turning the greatest of them into capital ships, while others, those he finds more pathetic and simple, are merely made into his destroyers. Animals of all shapes and descriptions are not exempt either, rather than leaving them to die on a planet with a shattered biosphere, he creates the first Troop Transports and Processing Ships ships from their raw materials, beginning the creation of his armada.
Finally, with a galaxy stripped of his enemies, both great and small. Harbinger finds himself and his fleet without purpose, their war won forever. He then comes to a realization, life will arise again in the Milky Way, more great species will be born to accomplish great things as his own did. He could exterminate all life now if he chose.
Instead, he chooses to grant them the kindness of perfection, the opportunity to rise to his level, the peak of evolution. Though he becomes aware, they will certainly become a threat to him, so he chooses to do what his species was know best for, and turns to science. He realizes that if he provides an easy, accessable route for them, they will take it, giving him a method of control oever them. And so, the Reapers as they have now termed themselves, begin to sow the seeds of their crop of flesh, creating the Mass Relays, repurposing old enemies as the Keepers, and preparing to wait for a new crop to rise...
[/quote]
[/quote]
[/quote]
[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...
[quote]spotlessvoid wrote...
Clearly, the reapers/starchild are not empathetic to other sentient life forms. Absolutely no care for the suffering of living beings is shown. Organic civilization may not be as advanced, but it is self aware. This capacity for abstract thought makes the humans to ants = reapers to humans line of reasoning flat out false. Since there is no apparent inherent need for organic life existing in the galaxy and the reapers/starchild are clearly not benevolent towards organic life, it obviously implies that reaper/starchild motivations are driven by self interest. This totally debunks the idea that reapers/starchild are acting on behalf of organic life.
Based on the fact that they don't wipe out ALL organic life and return in 50k year cycles, as opposed to when the need arises, my assumption is that they harvest organic life for sustenance. Whatever that specifically means I have no idea, but the Reapers/starchild are doing this for selfish reasons and not out of compassion or altruism. Starchild is either lying or some broken rogue AI from some long forgotten age. What he states is not only a textbook example of circular logic, it is undeniably contradicted by the Reapers actions. [/quote]
The thing about that, they don't see themselves as killing us. They beleive they are helping our final evolution along.
"I am the Harbinger of your Perfection."
"You are bacteria."
"Evolution cannot be stopped."
"Embrace Perfection."
"Surrender your form to us."
"I am the Harbinger of your ascendance!"
"We are your genetic destiny."
"Progress cannot be halted."
You are arrogant, Shepard."
"We are your destiny."
All quotes from Harbinger's own mouth. They clearly see individuals unimportant except where they can derive benefits from them. They beleive mankind has a destiny to fulfill.[/quote]
[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...
[quote]spotlessvoid wrote...
Some villains do it for personal gain or carnal pleasure and completely disregard any consequences their behavior has on others[/quote]
Doesn't mean they see themselves as evil though. A good villian in that sort of suitation either sees other people as less important than himself, or "not real people" (see Batman villian Victor Sszaz for an excellent example of this) ore they justify it in their own minds with phrases like "everyone is out for themselves, I'm just being like everyone else."
They're absolutely wrong, but in their own minds, they beleive they are in the right. Good and Evil aren't real things, speaking objectively, it's the result of a conflict of moralities. Life doesn't follow D&D alignments unfortunately. Though personally, I usually don't think about it. I just do what I think is right.
[/quote]
[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...
[quote]gunslinger_ruiz wrote...
[quote]spotlessvoid wrote...
why would the reapers keep setting us back 50,000 years? If they are worried about dark energy or us destroying the galaxy, why not just wipe out organic life back to primitive form? Obviously they need advanced civilizations to harvest. that clearly implies a selfish motivation to their actions.
Starchild is full of it or crazy[/quote]
Possible they don't want competition in terms of AI and technology, anything past 50,000 years might have proven to be too costly for them to harvest. Also possible they just like the number 50,000.
[/quote]
I don't think they're selfish about it actually. As you can see from my own theory, I think it's a kind of sick philanthrophism. They see themselves as perfect ("I wish you could see it as I do Shepard... it's so... perfect...") and want to share their perfection with others, YOU are the arrogant little organic defying their grand master plan ("You are arrogant Shepard.") the pretentious little child who thinks he knows better than they, will all their millenia of experience, not to mention far more "processing power" in one little tentacle than you have in your whole head.
Creating new Reapers is the goal, perfecting Organic life and protecting it forever from the ravages of time and the static, unchanging, ungrowing synthetics, whom are bound by their programming (see the irony?) it also makes the process more effiecent and quick in the end, with less waste. YOU are the one who is being selfish as far as they are concerned, more concerned with your own life and opinions than the lives of everyone else.
Really, the theme I THINK I see here is that organics and synthetics aren't so different. We've been "programmed" by the Reapers (every 50,000 years we act the same, and die) just as much as synthetics are, and now, we, like EDI are altering our programming. The Reapers know us very well, every time they use the same tricks, the same forms of psychological warfare, because they are all common to organics, our very most base parts. And now we are the cycle that manages to spit in the face of that.
[/quote]
And now, a few things that I feel warrant more discussion, and to take up more of your valuabl goldbricking time.
[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...
Something just occurred to me.
Husks are shown (when you shoot 'em open) to have their brains primarily intact, correct?
For a while I was wondering how it was that Reapers could incorporate the minds of the people they kill into the nascent Reaper, especially since they use so many in the creation of Husks.
Then I realized, it's like what happened to Shepard, their brains are preserved, almost as though in formaldehyde, until the Husk is killed. Then, the brain itself is rendered down into material for building, and the content of the brain is copied, the neural pathways( which a Blue Box mimics, it's own unique electrical currents bearing similarities to synaptic pathways) Shepard was able to be brought back because his neural pathways had not degraded.
It also explains why a head-shot works on them, the brain is a necessity still, in an otherwise dead body.
A few things I noticed playing through again.
In the first dream, for a split second, the trees look like neurons.
When speaking to Vega in the Embassies, he also says "It's like this place wants you to forget" if you choose to investigate.
And yet more fodder for my own personal theory that we'll see either Collector based DLC, the fact that Vega is really the only fella without his own quest, and he has some serious hangups with the Collectors. A possible theory is that the DLC would be bundled with the anime dvd.
Especially considering, guess who's the star in the upcoming Mass Effect anime? That's right, Lt. James Vega.
A few other things that came to mind, mostly out of the mouth of TIM; "This is the way Humanity must evolve." yet more references to the reapers being "the pinnacle of evolution."
Shepard's response to TIM in the finale; power you shouldn't be able to use, sounds alot like his brand spanking new plot convenient power to control, don't it?
Synthesis, some people have pointed it out a few times before, but it finally clicked for me, that Synthesis bears not only the description of becoming a Reaper, it also contains MORE evolution aspects, considered by the Guardian, the final evolution... just like the Reapers themselves.
Also, I noticed TIM uses a predator to commit suicide... just like Saren.
And since it got buried without much discussion, I'll point out about how at the end, the sound guys (usually very neurotic about this sort of thing) seemed to check out, Shepard's voice in the final scene before the Guardian is practically separate from the rest of the sound he makes, almost like a voiceover
And speaking of voices, looked at the codex again; the whispers fit "alien voices in the mind" pretty well, don't they?
[quote]gunslinger_ruiz wrote...
[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...
A few things I noticed playing through again.
In the first dream, for a split second, the trees look like neurons.
When speaking to Vega in the Embassies, he also says "It's like this place wants you to forget" if you choose to investigate.
And yet more fodder for my own personal theory that we'll see either Collector based DLC, the fact that Vega is really the only fella without his own quest, and he has some serious hangups with the Collectors. A possible theory is that the DLC would be bundled with the anime dvd.
Especially considering, guess who's the star in the upcoming Mass Effect anime? That's right, Lt. James Vega.[/quote]
I remember someone a few hundred pages ago brought up the dream trees looking like neurons when you first see them at that angle. I think a few Theorists "dismissed" that claim but I believe him/you, they look almost too similar for mere coincidence and I really don't like using the word "coincidence" to describe more than one thing in such a story. I'm a stong believer in nothing going to waste in a good story, everything having a meaning or some significance, or at least everything in an important part of the story such as these Nightmares.
I brought up the Citadel potentially being a hub for Indoctrination a few pages ago (1500 something or so) and someone (maybe you arian?) mentioned it was already discussed earlier in the thread. Your squadmate convos add credit to it,
"In here you can almost forget about the war."
"It's like they want you to forget."
"It's all wrong, like they're hiding something."
"Everyone's walking around in a daze."
I'd go on if my memory was any better, you'd think with 3 and a half playthroughs I'd have it half memorized by now.
[/quote]
Indeed, I agree with you completely, in fact, I agree so much it has it's own terms associated with it,
The Law of Conservation of Detail; meaning you only put something in if it enhances the quality or tone of your story, meaning that in a well written story, nothing is put in without purpose, even if that purpose is only to enhance mood.
Chekov's Gun; a term from Russian playwritght Anton Chekov, whom claimed that if you mention something in a story, then it must be significant later on, taking the example of a playwright mentioning a gun in the first act, if they follow Chekov's Gun, then the gun must be fired in the 3rd act. In short, if something is put into a story, it must be used, or have it's significance revealed.
Red Herring; a term used for putting in items that seem to be Chekov's Guns, but in the end are actually unimportant to the story.
Macguffin; coined by Alfred hitchcock, a Macguffin is a plot device used to drive the story, usually an item. it differentiates itself from a Chekov's Gun or a Red Herring by both appearing to be important, and actually being important, unlike a Chekov's Gun, which is important only in hindsight, and a Red Herring, which is eventually revealed to be unimportant.
In short, good writers don't do things unintentionally, and no one can deny, Bioware are not only good writers, even BAD writers wouldn't be able to put so many seemingly insignificant things that add up by accident. The statistics are against it.
And no, I will admit, I was not the first to posit the "Citadel has a light, cowing indoctrination wave" theory, and at first I found it hokey. But in the end... well, Indoctrination has a real world basis, so does a pacifying sub sonic sound. And no one can deny, it would be in the Reapers best interests if everyone on the Citadel were cowed and easy to fight.
[quote]Ravereth wrote...
Hello guys, I found THAT really interesting, but maybe I'm just seeing conections to IT where I shouldn't? *snip*[/quote]
[quote]Amelyn wrote...
I just wanted to post these links as they may help with evidence of Shepard being in London during the breath scene.
I played with the levels on the breath scene pic to lighten up the scene as it was very dark. The concrete here in the scene is identical to the london concrete in a previous scene, even down to the markings, lines, etc. Just wanted to show the comparison.
http://imageshack.us...donconcrete.jpg
http://imageshack.us...eneconcrete.jpg
[/quote]
The concrete here from London is exactly the same in appearance as that in the breath scene. Also, we looked more closely at the actual reaper tubes themselves and they were formed of many smaller cables wrapped with a spiral patterned covering, kind of like the things you use to wrap young saplings.
Personally, from my point of veiw, ME3 is VERY VERY much for their long time fans, seeing those favorite moments with Mordin and Garrus, falls flat if you don't know who they are going in. That and the explanations for n00bs suck. Probably intentionaly, so they can subtly encourage people "Hey, go back and buy these REALLY good games."
Also, for why they would give the EC out for free.. one, PR, it looks good in the end. and makes EA seem "not so bad after all." and two, they will likely give it for free to everyone with a current copy of ME3. Anyone who buys used will have to pay for it, just like Cerberus Network.
[/quote]
[quote]balance5050 wrote...
[quote]Golferguy758 wrote...
Problem with the "End of the Matrix" line is that it could be referring to the end of the 3rd matrix. Y'know, the one where Neo sacrificed himself to ensure peace between humans and the robots? Seems similar to Synthesis in a way. Both coming to a peaceful solution through the sacrifice of one.
[/quote]
Well I certainly hope it was the first one, where Neo gets shot and dies, but then realizes that it was just in the matrix and the rules can be bent/broken.
[/quote]
As was pointed out, the notes state "End of the first Matrix + Brave New World"
Being entirely honest, never having read it, could someone explain for me how Brave New World relates?
[quote]byne wrote...
[quote]HellishFiend wrote...
[quote]MegumiAzusa wrote...
[quote]byne wrote...
What I wanna know is why Joker didnt even MENTION the Batarian fleet.
Balak said I had his fleet's support.[/quote]
Bah Batarians... just let the Reapers reap them and all is good.[/quote]
HEY! Have you no sensitivity or understanding? For your information, I'll have you know that....
....they are actually quite good in the multiplayer game. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/happy.png[/smilie]
[/quote]
I'm still sad I never got a batarian squadmate.
They should make Balak recruitable.
I think the interaction between him and Shepard would be very interesting.
He'd be like an even bigger jerkass version of Javik.
[/quote]
I LOVED to hate Balak. Going into the mission, I knew he was involved somehow, but I wasn't sure how, I was planning on killing that son of a ****, it was going to be something I took a great deal of pleasure in, but the moment that he starts telling me about the Batarian Fleet, I immediately went "DAMN IT! I NEED THIS GUY AND I HATE THAT FACT SO MUCH! AUGH!" I spent the next 5 minutes just muttering "I hate him I HATE HIM, but goddamn it I need him! I HATE HIM!" to myself. It was interesting to find that I needed a guy I hated SO ****ING much on my side.
[quote]Simon_Says wrote...
[quote]HellishFiend wrote...
Yeah, there is a distinct lack of a "vindictive, bitter A-hole that is hilarious despite his attempts to be mean" throughout the trilogy, and a Batarian could possibly have fit that role perfectly. [/quote]
Commander Shepard has become a legend by ending the reaper threat. Now you can continue to build that legend through further gameplay and downloadable content.
[/quote]
Damn right, put in a request.
Which brings back an idea I had a while back...
I pointed out that Javik apparently, mostly came about because of fan desire for a squadmate "Prothy the Prothean" at some point, so the meme was eventually codified into reality.
Well... people LOVE Marauder Shields...
In the end, an old enemy (can't figure who would be killed every game around, other than Saren, and we know HE'S not an option) ressurectted by Reaper tech, his body repurposed and raised from the dead to act as a autonomous field general, a new form of tactical command unit, the first and only of his class, with enough of his remaining personality and will to break free, eventually turning against his masters, yet now, faced with the fact that he is, in a word, a monster, not able to fit into society any more than he could return to the Reapers, stuck as the walking ambulatory corpse of a hated enemy or a trusted friend...
That could be quite a squad mate if done well. Maybe even a repurposed Batarian. Or, who knows, Saren, if they could work out a sufficient excuse. After all, the fans did it with Irenicus, why not Saren?
[quote]Auralius Carolus wrote...
[quote]Dracorequiem wrote...
[quote]Auralius Carolus wrote...
[quote]HellishFiend wrote...
The problem is that the implications of the entire starchild sequence (his logical fallacies aside), including everything both you and I have mentioned, are all self-contradictory. You do a good job of pointing that out yourself in the first paragraph. This discussion originated from attempting to justify the face value context, which we obviously cant do. Even pro-enders cant, because their justifications are mistakes, oversights, and bad writing on the part of the developers.
[/quote]
Which is the difference between us and them. We tend to be analytical, creative, and willing to believe that others- in this case the designers- are capable of sharing those traits with us.[/quote]
I think what really defines IT supporters is our faith in the competency of the writing staff. We see all these horrible mistakes and think... this is so bad it HAS to be done on purpose.
[/quote]
Faith aside, history suggests that there has not been a significant change in the Bioware design team from ME1-3. Most design elements that have evolved/changed have been reactionary to consumer demand. Yet who gets blamed? Electronic Arts, (admittedly, I've seen EA pull some stunts before and I still enjoy ragging on them
), however- in past years- I've seen several noteworthy EA labels increase in overall quality, suggesting that the "Corperate Overlords" that people love to hate, are potentially scapegoats.That's, quite possibly, what lead me to IT- I simply don't fall for the class warfare "Hate the Big Guy" narrative. Even as complex as the corperate scene can be, there had to be something logical to explain this and then... an AHA! Moment. Narrative subterfuge. After investigation, it adds up.[/quote]
Agreed. EA is greedy, not stupid or evil, they're a corporation, not Satan.
[quote]HellishFiend wrote...
[quote]spotlessvoid wrote...
[quote]Auralius Carolus wrote...
The Crucible is there, but there has to be an environmentally suitable containment zone there for Shepard to exist. The base consideration is that there is some sort of field around this part of the Citadel. That is UNLESS the entire thing isn't real, but a dream. Is there proof for this, in this scenario? Maybe- if no organic has ever set foot there, how is it that the Crucible is specifically designed to interact with that part of the Citadel? It is possible that engineers could have used theoretical schematics of the Citadel, but highly unlikely if the opportunity arose to investigate personally to take measurements.
As to object manipulation, the Catalyst is either extremely limited or unable. If it had been able to, it is logical that the Catalyst would have simply over-ridden the Prothean alterations and opened up the Citadel Relay for the Reapers. As for the elivator and bridges, that's a big ????. Automation is possible, but that the Catalyst already is basically a huge logical fart, it's hard to say. He certainly claims that he can't affect the Reaper's and, as with the Control Panel, there are hints that biologicals are needed.[/quote]
Do you think it's possible that TIM could control Shepards movement, but Harbinger/Starchild can't?
I actually think you made an argument in IDTs favor my friend. [/quote]
Actually, what happened was that we got into a discussion about the face value context due to a random comment earlier, and ended up not being able to make much progress towards justifying it. Just goes to show that there are Pro-IT folks that are willing to consider both sides. Its just that (IMHO) the pro-ender side is so weak, that its very frustrating trying to make sense of it without falling back on "horrible writing". [/quote]
And this remains the crux of my own problems.
Logic tells me EA is smart, they won't kill their golden goose of a franchise. Logic also tells me that Bioware is excellent at their jobs, creating some of the finest videogame stories of all time. Logic also informs me that they know their necks are on the line, and also are aware of all that IDT offers them, the fact that if they can't save this suitation, the EA stockholders would kill them, logic also points out the evidence that we have gathered, the London concrete, the breath scene, the explosion, the child, the notes, the press releases, the panel's comments on IDT at Pax,
even the things that get me doubting can also be dismissed logically, like Gamble's tweet.
But unfortunatley, just as much as I beleive in logic, I also beleive in stupidity, and unfortunately, stupidity defies logic. That's the only way I can see IDT as being wrong, Bioware was just struck by complete stupidity. Someone please tell me that a moment of stupid just doesn't strike from the sky.
Modifié par Arian Dynas, 27 avril 2012 - 08:45 .
#45235
Posté 27 avril 2012 - 08:42
spotlessvoid
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Auralius Carolus wrote...
Ah yes, I remember when I used to write like that- with fluidity and grace, delivering the intent of words upon a rhythm which eluded prose. Then I became technical.
Anyway, when expectations are secured and immersion is achieved, it is not unthinkable that the engrossed individual will go through a mild state of shock when the perception securing the fantasy is shattered. It is odd to hear it coming from a video game, but not unthinkable.
I actually think the player agency granted in this series has succeeded in eliciting an emotional investment in the narrative that creates any even deeper attachment to the outcome of the characters
#45236
Posté 27 avril 2012 - 08:45
Earthborn_Shepard
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Oh god, somebody unleashed Arian.
#45237
Posté 27 avril 2012 - 08:47
Arian Dynas
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Earthborn_Shepard wrote...
Oh god, somebody unleashed Arian.
Ahhaha..ha...ha....hahaehehehahahAHAHAHAAHHAHAHHAAA...hehehehhehhe...heheh.. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH*cough* ahahhahahahHAHA!
#45238
Posté 27 avril 2012 - 08:50
Earthborn_Shepard
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Arian Dynas wrote...
Earthborn_Shepard wrote...
Oh god, somebody unleashed Arian.
Ahhaha..ha...ha....hahaehehehahahAHAHAHAAHHAHAHHAAA...hehehehhehhe...heheh.. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH*cough* ahahhahahahHAHA!
Was that supposed to be a mad laugh?
Reminds me of "Nobody tells him what to do.. Nohohohbody... HAHAHA"
#45239
Posté 27 avril 2012 - 08:51
Auralius Carolus
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#45240
Posté 27 avril 2012 - 08:52
Arian Dynas
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Earthborn_Shepard wrote...
Arian Dynas wrote...
Earthborn_Shepard wrote...
Oh god, somebody unleashed Arian.
Ahhaha..ha...ha....hahaehehehahahAHAHAHAAHHAHAHHAAA...hehehehhehhe...heheh.. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH*cough* ahahhahahahHAHA!
Was that supposed to be a mad laugh?
Reminds me of "Nobody tells him what to do.. Nohohohbody... HAHAHA"
... what, my evil laugh isn't good enough for anyone else? 
It's because I'm a paladin isn't it?
#45241
Posté 27 avril 2012 - 08:53
Arian Dynas
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Auralius Carolus wrote...
Arian Drops His Wall of Text- www.youtube.com/watch
Cute....
Be glad I indent mother****er.
Also, Cecilia, I see your dancing Turian and raise you a Pootis;
www.youtube.com/watch
Modifié par Arian Dynas, 27 avril 2012 - 09:01 .
#45242
Posté 27 avril 2012 - 09:05
spotlessvoid
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I actually have no idea how it's related to Brave New World. That book is about the debasement of society into a controlled, eugenicist elite run, thoughtless consumption driven false utopia. Where the ruling elite in 1984 use physical and psychological oppression in achieving a dumbed down proletariat, BNWs elite class achieve it through drugs, consumerism, sex, and more subtle propaganda than found in Orwells book.
The end of BNW is completely unrelated to ME3
And that sort of epic stupidity must be coordinated across writing/sound/video/qa. That would be the mother of all storms to strike that many people dumb in unison
The end of BNW is completely unrelated to ME3
And that sort of epic stupidity must be coordinated across writing/sound/video/qa. That would be the mother of all storms to strike that many people dumb in unison
#45243
Posté 27 avril 2012 - 09:06
Earthborn_Shepard
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spotlessvoid wrote...
I actually have no idea how it's related to Brave New World. That book is about the debasement of society into a controlled, eugenicist elite run, thoughtless consumption driven false utopia. Where the ruling elite in 1984 use physical and psychological oppression in achieving a dumbed down proletariat, BNWs elite class achieve it through drugs, consumerism, sex, and more subtle propaganda than found in Orwells book.
The end of BNW is completely unrelated to ME3
And that sort of epic stupidity must be coordinated across writing/sound/video/qa. That would be the mother of all storms to strike that many people dumb in unison
Yeah I wondered that too. There is literally NO connection between Brave New World and the ME3 ending.
#45244
Posté 27 avril 2012 - 09:10
Arian Dynas
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spotlessvoid wrote...
I actually have no idea how it's related to Brave New World. That book is about the debasement of society into a controlled, eugenicist elite run, thoughtless consumption driven false utopia. Where the ruling elite in 1984 use physical and psychological oppression in achieving a dumbed down proletariat, BNWs elite class achieve it through drugs, consumerism, sex, and more subtle propaganda than found in Orwells book.
The end of BNW is completely unrelated to ME3
And that sort of epic stupidity must be coordinated across writing/sound/video/qa. That would be the mother of all storms to strike that many people dumb in unison
Hmm, I do recall someone relating it SOMEHOW, I think it was a claim of something relating to the hoodwinking of the masses.
Also you might wanna seperate your post a bit, for a moment I thought the last thing was still talking about BNW, lol.
And thanks for the reassurance. Or maybe it's just the happy pills kicking in that make me feel better. (ok yeah, it's Vitamin D to fight Seasonal Affective Disorder mixed with legitimate leftover depression, but hey... besides, I could never do real antidepressants. The idea behind Prozac scares the hell out of me. I wouldn't be me anymore.)
#45245
Posté 27 avril 2012 - 09:10
spotlessvoid
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Plus, I mean come on, f'n starchild. That just can't be legit. It Just can't. I can't. Just...no
#45246
Posté 27 avril 2012 - 09:11
gunslinger_ruiz
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Arian Dynas wrote...
Earthborn_Shepard wrote...
Oh god, somebody unleashed Arian.
Ahhaha..ha...ha....hahaehehehahahAHAHAHAAHHAHAHHAAA...hehehehhehhe...heheh.. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH*cough* ahahhahahahHAHA!
Ahem, yes I think I may have been invoking the rule of Arian Dynas... Wall of text is worth it!
In response to some of it:
- I have no idea what Brave New World is but I'll look into it when I'm not tired/feel like reading.
- Batarian squadmate would be interesting, but I'd prefer a krogan squadmates since this is the only ME game we don't get one.
- As for a Maurader Sheilds companion: Maurader Shields -credit goes to koobismo of deviantart
Modifié par gunslinger_ruiz, 27 avril 2012 - 09:15 .
#45247
Posté 27 avril 2012 - 09:11
HellishFiend
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Am I the only one who (mostly) read's Arian's posts? 
Since he always catches up on everyone's posts and has something to say about the major ones, I find them good for getting a quick summary of what's been discussed lately.
Anything is possible, but although I'm quite biased at this point, I find the most likely scenario to be that IT has been Bioware's original intention all along.
Actually I guess that is kind of a misnomer, since the IT is a "theory" of what happened with the ending, and what's going to happen next. If it is actually Bioware's plan, it just becomes the "Indoctrination Ending".
Given Bioware's history of incorporating player feedback, crafting misdirection in their plots, and having twist endings, it stands to reason that they would be willing or even inclined to try to pull something like this off. Combine that with EA's business model, and you have a perfect recipe for "Put the game on shelves now with a controversial, attention-grabbing temporary ending, buying ourselves lots of time to craft the 'real' ending while we roll in the money, and simultaneously gain the ability to make it into exactly what the fans want".
Since he always catches up on everyone's posts and has something to say about the major ones, I find them good for getting a quick summary of what's been discussed lately.
Arian Dynas wrote...
HellishFiend wrote...
spotlessvoid wrote...
Auralius Carolus wrote...
The Crucible is there, but there has to be an environmentally suitable containment zone there for Shepard to exist. The base consideration is that there is some sort of field around this part of the Citadel. That is UNLESS the entire thing isn't real, but a dream. Is there proof for this, in this scenario? Maybe- if no organic has ever set foot there, how is it that the Crucible is specifically designed to interact with that part of the Citadel? It is possible that engineers could have used theoretical schematics of the Citadel, but highly unlikely if the opportunity arose to investigate personally to take measurements.
As to object manipulation, the Catalyst is either extremely limited or unable. If it had been able to, it is logical that the Catalyst would have simply over-ridden the Prothean alterations and opened up the Citadel Relay for the Reapers. As for the elivator and bridges, that's a big ????. Automation is possible, but that the Catalyst already is basically a huge logical fart, it's hard to say. He certainly claims that he can't affect the Reaper's and, as with the Control Panel, there are hints that biologicals are needed.
Do you think it's possible that TIM could control Shepards movement, but Harbinger/Starchild can't?
I actually think you made an argument in IDTs favor my friend.
Actually, what happened was that we got into a discussion about the face value context due to a random comment earlier, and ended up not being able to make much progress towards justifying it. Just goes to show that there are Pro-IT folks that are willing to consider both sides. Its just that (IMHO) the pro-ender side is so weak, that its very frustrating trying to make sense of it without falling back on "horrible writing".
And this remains the crux of my own problems.
Logic tells me EA is smart, they won't kill their golden goose of a franchise. Logic also tells me that Bioware is excellent at their jobs, creating some of the finest videogame stories of all time. Logic also informs me that they know their necks are on the line, and also are aware of all that IDT offers them, the fact that if they can't save this suitation, the EA stockholders would kill them, logic also points out the evidence that we have gathered, the London concrete, the breath scene, the explosion, the child, the notes, the press releases, the panel's comments on IDT at Pax,
even the things that get me doubting can also be dismissed logically, like Gamble's tweet.
But unfortunatley, just as much as I beleive in logic, I also beleive in stupidity, and unfortunately, stupidity defies logic. That's the only way I can see IDT as being wrong, Bioware was just struck by complete stupidity. Someone please tell me that a moment of stupid just doesn't strike from the sky.
Anything is possible, but although I'm quite biased at this point, I find the most likely scenario to be that IT has been Bioware's original intention all along.
Actually I guess that is kind of a misnomer, since the IT is a "theory" of what happened with the ending, and what's going to happen next. If it is actually Bioware's plan, it just becomes the "Indoctrination Ending".
Given Bioware's history of incorporating player feedback, crafting misdirection in their plots, and having twist endings, it stands to reason that they would be willing or even inclined to try to pull something like this off. Combine that with EA's business model, and you have a perfect recipe for "Put the game on shelves now with a controversial, attention-grabbing temporary ending, buying ourselves lots of time to craft the 'real' ending while we roll in the money, and simultaneously gain the ability to make it into exactly what the fans want".
Modifié par HellishFiend, 27 avril 2012 - 09:14 .
#45248
Posté 27 avril 2012 - 09:11
Earthborn_Shepard
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Oh I think I figured it out, the whole ending is just a Soma hallucination
#45249
Posté 27 avril 2012 - 09:14
gunslinger_ruiz
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Random double post o.O
Modifié par gunslinger_ruiz, 27 avril 2012 - 09:14 .
#45250
Posté 27 avril 2012 - 09:15
DirtyPhoenix
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EA want money, it doesn't take a genius to see they are hurting their sales by doing this.
