57139 réponses à ce sujet

[JayDea]

@OP: The trick of player experiment is really blowing off, though I wouldn't stake my life on it, I suppose they didn't expect such a terrible feedback about the ending and have a few DLC in store that would give more clues but can't really unveil anything without ruining the DLC. The idea as a whole fits almost perfectly but I couldn't help musing at some details.

I didn't go through the hundreds (or so) messages in this thread, but here it comes:

When Shepard turns towards Anderson after being "snapped out of it", a growl is heard. In the third novel, when Greyson resisted the reapers they would make a growling noise once they realized they didn't have him under complete control.

At this moment, all I hear is the metallic sound of the venting shaft as the kid progresses in it. Compare to when Liara runs away from Cerberus mobs in the venting shaft on Mars, I'll give it another hearing with my studio headphones to make sure, but I really don't remember any growling.

-Odd details in the Citadel mission:
It can't be real, that's for sure. Just look at the admiral Anderson, maybe looking tired or something, but compare his casual outfit (no armor) to Shepard's burned-down armor and physical injuries. How come he hardly has a scratch when Shepard is limping over the place with a ruined armor? and wasn't the radio voice saying everyone was dead and no one made it to the beam?
Besides, they both made it up and Anderson would have reached another point, and went all the way to the console when there's no other entry point to the console platform but the one Shepard came from?
Also, Anderson describes how things look like to Shepard before he reach them himself, thus providing Shepard with elements that he later experiment through the way up the platform (walls moving,chasm, etc.) comforting Shepard in the feeling he's really there (to give more weight to the indoctrination "dream").
The simple presence of TIM there, really striked me as odd and kept haunting me until I read this post. How the hell would he make it up there with the raging war around the beam? Why would the reapers let him come over there? He served them for a while, but he had no other purpose anymore, it was the last stand of galactic's evolved species against the reapers. TIM alone wouldn't have any use in battle and there weren't any Cerberus mobs anywhere to be seen after his base got controlled by the Alliance.
The simple fact that the catalyst is represented by the very same kid Shepard kept dreaming about after he died in the first attack on Earth, is revealing. Once in the Citadel, it's the best affect leverage to press Shepard's controlled mind into chosing a reaper favorable decision. Besides, how would the catalyst otherwise know about this kid if it wasn't a mind game?

That could confirm the hallucination hypothesis, but...

...there's no epilogue... what most people complain about, is the lack of closure, not knowing anything about the squadmates and the galaxy, but there can't be any epilogue, the story didn't end yet... when you see the Normandy crashed on some planet, EDI exits the ship if chosing a paragon or synthesis ending, while she was on Earth in the Forward Operations Base in London before the pep-talk preceding the final onslaught, and the squadmates had been dropped on Earth in shuttles while the Normandy remained in space. But then, I can't figure how this hallucination could cause the destruction of the reapers. So what happens? Shepard and all the soldiers try to make it to the beam, they fail, dream/hallucination/whatever-yada-yada, paragon/synthesis ending and Shepard has a flashback before dying or renegade ending, he wakes up.
But he hasn't made it to the beam and thus the whole damn fleet is still engaged with the reapers. That's where we're at when the credits roll.

So, while I tend to agree with the halluciation idea, I can't fully adhere to it as it would mean the game wasn't finished and there could be a ME4 or something comming later on. It reminded me of Evangelion's ending, but Evangelion had and ending, ME3 doesn't.

[tuzem2]

jackncoke28 wrote...

The idea of the indoctrination is that he is being lied to and made to think he's doing the right thing. Both Saren and TIM wanted what they felt was best. Just imagine them in that room faced with the same choices Shepard has. TIM chose control, Saren chose synthesis. destruction was the only that didntnseem to pray on sheps insecurity about being able to save everyone, which the star child's image was ment to convey

Destroy kills the Geth and EDI. Why would this be a good ending?

[ThePasserby]

I feel that giving so much thought and analysis to the possibility of the ending being a hallucination - dissecting every little piece of detail - is giving it more credit than it deserves. I seriously doubt the writers knew what they were doing with the ending.

[CDHarrisUSF]

Miss Vader wrote...

One more story people! Shep isn't done yet

Why stop at one? We need a whole series of "Shepisodes."

I just hope Shepisode I doesn't have a Jar Jar equivalent.

Modifié par CDHarrisUSF, 12 mars 2012 - 05:04 .

[humes spork]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

It doesn't give the feeling of a dream sequence, either. At least Shepard's treck after waking up in london has a groggy what's going on feeling. The ending scene doesn't.

Oh, and I missed this in the EA stuff. The ending beyond that is still rife with dream signs (or really lazy/rushed development).

The Silent Hill Citadel hallway is straight out of the Prothean beacon vision. In fact, pretty much everything from that point forward is a reused asset or something cobbled together from Shepard's past experiences.

The Keeper noticed and looked at Shepard, which is really weird.

The corpses on the floor are all doll-like. The most-detailed corpses have points of articulation and no faces or hair, for example. If you look right at one, that really pops out -- especially in light that's a lot of work to put into something to make it look featureless.

The backwards numbers and letters.

The invisible and/or teleporting Anderson and Illusive Man.

It's a real contradiction. I don't think lazy development and crappy writing is sufficient to explain it, because that level of mediocrity and suspension of disbelief-breaking is one a person has to really try to achieve.

Modifié par humes spork, 12 mars 2012 - 05:01 .

[wryterra]

tuzem2 wrote...

jackncoke28 wrote...

The idea of the indoctrination is that he is being lied to and made to think he's doing the right thing. Both Saren and TIM wanted what they felt was best. Just imagine them in that room faced with the same choices Shepard has. TIM chose control, Saren chose synthesis. destruction was the only that didntnseem to pray on sheps insecurity about being able to save everyone, which the star child's image was ment to convey

Destroy kills the Geth and EDI. Why would this be a good ending?

Sacrifices. All the way through the game we've seen characters making sacrifices. No one said it had to be a pure victory but that's the point, that's the false-choice the indoctrination gives you.

The catalyst CAN destroy synthetic life but it destroys *synthetic life*, you must sacrifice. Or you can compromise, in which case the Reapers win, but don't they just make compromise sound like the better bet?

[GSSAGE7]

Am I the only one who's thinking of making a Shepard that is completely un-kid friendly? It's just something I came up with when I saw the ending, where a grandfather is telling his grandchild the entire story. Would he tell the part about how he shot everyone he could in the face? Or the part where he had a Renegade Romance with Jack?
I'll get a sick sense of pleasure when I get to the end of the trilogy, and imagine that a little girl sat through the most insane series of events sense a 3D remake of Caligula.

[tuzem2]

wryterra wrote...

tuzem2 wrote...

jackncoke28 wrote...

The idea of the indoctrination is that he is being lied to and made to think he's doing the right thing. Both Saren and TIM wanted what they felt was best. Just imagine them in that room faced with the same choices Shepard has. TIM chose control, Saren chose synthesis. destruction was the only that didntnseem to pray on sheps insecurity about being able to save everyone, which the star child's image was ment to convey

Destroy kills the Geth and EDI. Why would this be a good ending?

Sacrifices. All the way through the game we've seen characters making sacrifices. No one said it had to be a pure victory but that's the point, that's the false-choice the indoctrination gives you.

The catalyst CAN destroy synthetic life but it destroys *synthetic life*, you must sacrifice. Or you can compromise, in which case the Reapers win, but don't they just make compromise sound like the better bet?

Yeah but all that interaction between the Quarian and the Geth. Their progress. Legion sacraficed himself to basically save the Geth. Mordin sacraficed himself to save the Krogan. Shepard should sacrafice himself to save all civilization, not just the organics.

Modifié par tuzem2, 12 mars 2012 - 05:03 .

[Linus108]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up. But another thing that makes it seem more like a hallucination is how the choices are physically presented. It all comes down to a "press a button" and things happen scenario. If that was the real world, how would shooting a core take down all synthetics? How would doing any of those 3 things, magically make things happen. This scenario makes more sense in a dream/hallucination, where you are given 3 general choices.

If this ends up being the real ending, then I think the three choices at the end and how they magically changed stuff was ridiculous.

[Ultra Prism]

ending was simply all of them ABRUPT....it happen so quick ... I was left confused ... I came back to forums are so long ... I mean wow seriously Bioware can't pull this kind of ending after entire game was simply best Game experience that I ever had, infact I am doing second playthrough and will stop just before Harbinger's beam sequence, right now I am believing the last sequence is hallucination...it seems logical when stuck with solid choices and game ends with normandy escaping with my squad mate that was me...

[MasterMenace]

tuzem2 wrote...

jackncoke28 wrote...

The idea of the indoctrination is that he is being lied to and made to think he's doing the right thing. Both Saren and TIM wanted what they felt was best. Just imagine them in that room faced with the same choices Shepard has. TIM chose control, Saren chose synthesis. destruction was the only that didntnseem to pray on sheps insecurity about being able to save everyone, which the star child's image was ment to convey

Destroy kills the Geth and EDI. Why would this be a good ending?

No it doesn't.

What starchild says about Destroy is to trick you even further.

None of the stuff from Destory actually happens except that you wake up in REALITY and DESTROY the reapers.

That's how i took it.

[WizenSlinky0]

The simple presence of TIM there, really striked me as odd and kept haunting me until I read this post. How the hell would he make it up there with the raging war around the beam? Why would the reapers let him come over there? He served them for a while, but he had no other purpose anymore, it was the last stand of galactic's evolved species against the reapers. TIM alone wouldn't have any use in battle and there weren't any Cerberus mobs anywhere to be seen after his base got controlled by the Alliance.

Eh, Hackett explains that. He ran to the citadel before you take his base and warned the reapers of your plans which causes them to take the citadel over and tow it to earth. Just like Saren I doubt they considered he'd be a liability. Shepard has always been a threat to them and were probably hoping for a certain level of emotional manipulation to break what was left of Shepard's morale.

They obviously weren't prepared for anybody to get into the Citadel. TIM could have also been their last resort.

[crimsontotem]

tuzem2 wrote...

jackncoke28 wrote...

The idea of the indoctrination is that he is being lied to and made to think he's doing the right thing. Both Saren and TIM wanted what they felt was best. Just imagine them in that room faced with the same choices Shepard has. TIM chose control, Saren chose synthesis. destruction was the only that didntnseem to pray on sheps insecurity about being able to save everyone, which the star child's image was ment to convey

Destroy kills the Geth and EDI. Why would this be a good ending?

OK I am not even going to bring philosophical note to this statement.
 
Can you explain to me the reason why it is the only  'Destroy' ending that shows us Shepard, partly synthetic which was implied by the kid that if you choose to destroy, it would kill you as well, breathing under the pile of concrete, mortars and rebars?

[LenabotSE]

If it's all an indoctrinated hallucination, none of the choices really "happened" at all - meaning that EDI and the geth are still around. The Reapers are just telling you that the geth and EDI will be wiped out to give you pause and consider the more compromising options.

It's the only option the Reaper AI doesn't want you to pick.

Control/Synthesis are Shepard giving into indoctrination. Destroy is the only one where Shepard breaks free of it, because (s)he has chosen not to listen to what the Reapers are saying. There's no evidence that the Reaper AI is anything other than an unreliable narrator.

However, there's merit behind the theory that Shepard's motivations behind Control and Synthesis will allow us to break free of indoctrination too. There's just no Shepard alive final cutscene with them.



As for Stargazer, I wouldn't analyze that bit too much. It's just a cliche moment where someone tells their kid a story about a "legendary figure from the past."

[angryjon]

For those people complaining about not playing Arrival and not understanding why Shepard would be indoctrinated, here's another Theory on how he/she might have gotten indoctrinated:

Perhaps when he was being reconstructed by Cerberus in ME2, the reapers influenced TIM into putting some sort of Reaper tech in him. And the reason TIM always said that he wanted Shepard back exactly the way he/she was, was his subtle way of fighting against reaper control.

Now, for those of you who argue that TIM wasn't indoctrinated back in ME2, please read Mass Effect: Evolution. In the comic You'll see that **Spoilers**: TIM was affected by a reaper artifact on Palevan back towards the end of the First Contact War. Even though at the time, the full indoctrination process didn't manifest itself, you could see that it began because that is how TIM got his Glowing synthetic eyes. **End Spoilers**

Now whether or not Shepard was indoctrinated by the artifact on the Arrival DLC or by some subtle reaper tech implanted by cerberus is up to you really, I'm just waiting to see what Bioware has up their sleeves, which to me is an Expansion pack, because I don't think they can add that kind of beefy content on DLC alone.

[RABicle]

Sheperd died running towards the beam. They all did. The reapers won.

Everything from Sheperd's death onwards is told by the Stargazer to the child. They're people of the next cycle who know of Sheperd's legend through Liara's time capsules. They assume Sheperd defeated the Reapers because they are alive and everything is peaceful.

[Bigdoser]

tuzem2 wrote...

wryterra wrote...

tuzem2 wrote...

jackncoke28 wrote...

The idea of the indoctrination is that he is being lied to and made to think he's doing the right thing. Both Saren and TIM wanted what they felt was best. Just imagine them in that room faced with the same choices Shepard has. TIM chose control, Saren chose synthesis. destruction was the only that didntnseem to pray on sheps insecurity about being able to save everyone, which the star child's image was ment to convey

Destroy kills the Geth and EDI. Why would this be a good ending?

Sacrifices. All the way through the game we've seen characters making sacrifices. No one said it had to be a pure victory but that's the point, that's the false-choice the indoctrination gives you.

The catalyst CAN destroy synthetic life but it destroys *synthetic life*, you must sacrifice. Or you can compromise, in which case the Reapers win, but don't they just make compromise sound like the better bet?

Yeah but all that interaction between the Quarian and the Geth. Their progress. Legion sacraficed himself to basically save the Geth. Mordin sacraficed himself to save the Krogan. Shepard should sacrafice himself to save all civilization, not just the organics.

I personally think legion would approve of the destroy ending as he said in me2 when you destroy the base "Your species was offered everything geth aspire to True unity, understanding and Transcendence. You rejected it even refused the possiblity of using the old machine's gifts to achive it on your own terms. You are more like us than we thought." So destroy ending for me always I also view the other two endings as betrayel to those who fought in the battle. 

Plus he says the red ending will kill shepard yet thats the only ending shepard can live in and when you see the scene it looks like shepard is still in london cause there is no way shepard's body would survive re entry to earth. So i think harbinger is trying to indoctinate you as renegade shepard said comprimising with the reapers is a sure fire way to yourself indoctrinated. 

I think the gun at the end is shepard's wilpower/resolve and the destory ending requires you to use the gun the most while control and synthesis shepard puts down his gun. The meaning of crucible means severe test or trial. 

Modifié par Bigdoser, 12 mars 2012 - 05:13 .

[tuzem2]

MasterMenace wrote...

tuzem2 wrote...

jackncoke28 wrote...

The idea of the indoctrination is that he is being lied to and made to think he's doing the right thing. Both Saren and TIM wanted what they felt was best. Just imagine them in that room faced with the same choices Shepard has. TIM chose control, Saren chose synthesis. destruction was the only that didntnseem to pray on sheps insecurity about being able to save everyone, which the star child's image was ment to convey

Destroy kills the Geth and EDI. Why would this be a good ending?

No it doesn't.

What starchild says about Destroy is to trick you even further.

None of the stuff from Destory actually happens except that you wake up in REALITY and DESTROY the reapers.

That's how i took it.

Yeah I still can't explain to myself the Breathing scene after most EMS Destroy ending.
It kind of funny as well - isn't the Synthesis option the 3rd one that presents itself avaiable depening on what have you been doing during the game. Look through YouTube - the Destroy option appears as the only one possible (available) if you were going all bad-ass paragon during the whole game. The Control one is the second one that appears or analogical to the Destory one. The Synthesis option only apears as available if you've made enough progress during the game (I think)

[WizenSlinky0]

LenabotSE wrote...

As for Stargazer, I wouldn't analyze that bit too much. It's just a cliche moment where someone tells their kid a story about a "legendary figure from the past."

See, that's what I don't like about these theories. People will spend hours over-analyzing things but as soon as there's a contradiction some people will dismiss it as not important to analyze. It matters. The fact it plays in all three endings implies the reapers were defeated. The fact they are humans, implies the reapers were defeated. That would not be possible in this theory since both control and synthesis would be considered a "loss" under it.

Humans would be gone. Shepard would not be a hero who defeated the reapers.

RABicle wrote...

Sheperd died running towards the beam. They all did. The reapers won.

Everything
from Sheperd's death onwards is told by the Stargazer to the child.
They're people of the next cycle who know of Sheperd's legend through
Liara's time capsules. They assume Sheperd defeated the Reapers because
they are alive and everything is peaceful.

The chancesof humans existing in the next cycle would be extremely small.

Modifié par WizenSlinky0, 12 mars 2012 - 05:11 .

[Stalker]

RABicle wrote...

Sheperd died running towards the beam. They all did. The reapers won.

Everything from Sheperd's death onwards is told by the Stargazer to the child. They're people of the next cycle who know of Sheperd's legend through Liara's time capsules. They assume Sheperd defeated the Reapers because they are alive and everything is peaceful.

... that makes terrifyingly much sense...

[3Minotaur3]

If it's a dream or an hallucination, does that means the Relays are destroyed or not?...

If they are, then everything is gone... Planets, Reapers, etc... Back to Stone Age...
If they are not, that means the story is not done, because nothing in the end story tell us that the Reapers has won or lost. Or what happens to Shepard or Anderson...

Impossible to be sure, with an end-story like that...

Another possibility is the near-death experience: Shepard is mortally wounded by the Reaper's red beam and he dreamed or hallucinated the rest of the end story... That means he's dead, he couldn't stop the Reapers, so the Reapers won...

argh... head hurt...


Edit: RABicle beat me by a few minutes for the near-death...

Modifié par 3Minotaur3, 12 mars 2012 - 05:14 .

[AgentMulder5]

crimsontotem wrote...

tuzem2 wrote...

jackncoke28 wrote...

The idea of the indoctrination is that he is being lied to and made to think he's doing the right thing. Both Saren and TIM wanted what they felt was best. Just imagine them in that room faced with the same choices Shepard has. TIM chose control, Saren chose synthesis. destruction was the only that didntnseem to pray on sheps insecurity about being able to save everyone, which the star child's image was ment to convey

Destroy kills the Geth and EDI. Why would this be a good ending?

OK I am not even going to bring philosophical note to this statement.
 
Can you explain to me the reason why it is the only  'Destroy' ending that shows us Shepard, partly synthetic which was implied by the kid that if you choose to destroy, it would kill you as well, breathing under the pile of concrete, mortars and rebars?

Because this choice is part of the hallucination. It's not real. You aren't really shooting some random tube that causes synthetics to die. It's a physical representation of Shepard saying **** you to the indoctrination attempt.

[angryjon]

LenabotSE wrote...

If it's all an indoctrinated hallucination, none of the choices really "happened" at all - meaning that EDI and the geth are still around. The Reapers are just telling you that the geth and EDI will be wiped out to give you pause and consider the more compromising options.

It's the only option the Reaper AI doesn't want you to pick.

Control/Synthesis are Shepard giving into indoctrination. Destroy is the only one where Shepard breaks free of it, because (s)he has chosen not to listen to what the Reapers are saying. There's no evidence that the Reaper AI is anything other than an unreliable narrator.

However, there's merit behind the theory that Shepard's motivations behind Control and Synthesis will allow us to break free of indoctrination too. There's just no Shepard alive final cutscene with them.
"

Think of it This way, in both control and synthesis, right before Shepard's body gets obliterated, the energy passing through him/her kind of makes him/her turn into something that kind of looks like a husk... I don't know if anyone else caught that.. And considering the only option where Shepard Lives is after Destroy makes it smell even fishier

[Terraforming2154]

tuzem2 wrote...

jackncoke28 wrote...

The idea of the indoctrination is that he is being lied to and made to think he's doing the right thing. Both Saren and TIM wanted what they felt was best. Just imagine them in that room faced with the same choices Shepard has. TIM chose control, Saren chose synthesis. destruction was the only that didntnseem to pray on sheps insecurity about being able to save everyone, which the star child's image was ment to convey

Destroy kills the Geth and EDI. Why would this be a good ending?

Honestly, I feel like the concept of sacrifice was played up more in this game than in the others.

Garrus mentions sacrifice twice - in one conversation when you first get him on ship, he suggests that humans want to save everyone and it might not be a possibility. He also dances around it as well after the VS stands opposed to Udina (he asks if you would have shot them if they hadn't).
Also, Javik has a very profound comment when Shep says she thinks she can win the war with honor intact. He says, "stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honour matters. The silence is your answer."

Of course this all may mean nothing, but I don't remember the other games pushing concepts like that at me before.

[Mr. Mistake]

"Lost", anyone?