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[Joyceee]

JayDea wrote...

... But then, I can't figure how this hallucination could cause the destruction of the reapers. So what happens? Shepard and all the soldiers try to make it to the beam, they fail, dream/hallucination/whatever-yada-yada, paragon/synthesis ending and Shepard has a flashback before dying or renegade ending, he wakes up.
But he hasn't made it to the beam and thus the whole damn fleet is still engaged with the reapers. That's where we're at when the credits roll.

So, while I tend to agree with the halluciation idea, I can't fully adhere to it as it would mean the game wasn't finished and there could be a ME4 or something comming later on. It reminded me of Evangelion's ending, but Evangelion had and ending, ME3 doesn't.

This is a really good point, and others have raised it too. While the Indoctrination Theory makes so much sense, just how does this help them win the actual war that's raging outside on Earth? 

I had always thought that by overcoming the indoctrination attempt, the Reapers were somehow 'magically' defeated in reality, so that when Shepard wakes up in London the Reapers have collapsed and the war has been won.

But then: what the hell? How does that make sense?

Modifié par Joyceee, 12 mars 2012 - 05:15 .

[Elendstourist]

Mr Massakka wrote...

RABicle wrote...

Sheperd died running towards the beam. They all did. The reapers won.

Everything from Sheperd's death onwards is told by the Stargazer to the child. They're people of the next cycle who know of Sheperd's legend through Liara's time capsules. They assume Sheperd defeated the Reapers because they are alive and everything is peaceful.

... that makes terrifyingly much sense...

How would he be alive and breathing then?

[tuzem2]

Terraforming2154 wrote...

tuzem2 wrote...

jackncoke28 wrote...

The idea of the indoctrination is that he is being lied to and made to think he's doing the right thing. Both Saren and TIM wanted what they felt was best. Just imagine them in that room faced with the same choices Shepard has. TIM chose control, Saren chose synthesis. destruction was the only that didntnseem to pray on sheps insecurity about being able to save everyone, which the star child's image was ment to convey

Destroy kills the Geth and EDI. Why would this be a good ending?

Honestly, I feel like the concept of sacrifice was played up more in this game than in the others.

Garrus mentions sacrifice twice - in one conversation when you first get him on ship, he suggests that humans want to save everyone and it might not be a possibility. He also dances around it as well after the VS stands opposed to Udina (he asks if you would have shot them if they hadn't).
Also, Javik has a very profound comment when Shep says she thinks she can win the war with honor intact. He says, "stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honour matters. The silence is your answer."

Of course this all may mean nothing, but I don't remember the other games pushing concepts like that at me before.

You have a point. But during war, which was the theme of ME3, the sacrafice concept makes sense, doesn't it?

[RABicle]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

LenabotSE wrote...

As for Stargazer, I wouldn't analyze that bit too much. It's just a cliche moment where someone tells their kid a story about a "legendary figure from the past."

See, that's what I don't like about these theories. People will spend hours over-analyzing things but as soon as there's a contradiction some people will dismiss it as not important to analyze. It matters. The fact it plays in all three endings implies the reapers were defeated. The fact they are humans, implies the reapers were defeated. That would not be possible in this theory since both control and synthesis would be considered a "loss" under it.

Humans would be gone. Shepard would not be a hero who defeated the reapers.

RABicle wrote...

Sheperd died running towards the beam. They all did. The reapers won.

Everything
from Sheperd's death onwards is told by the Stargazer to the child.
They're people of the next cycle who know of Sheperd's legend through
Liara's time capsules. They assume Sheperd defeated the Reapers because
they are alive and everything is peaceful.

The chancesof humans existing in the next cycle would be extremely small.

Stargazer isn't human. Look at the child's silloette, that's not what human kids look like. Even if you disagree, Asari or Batarians would still have a very similar silloette profile to humans. Stargazer postulates that the stars may contain anything the child wishes, and that the stars 'may have planets orbiting. Stargazer's cilivilization is not interstar-spacefaring.

[3Minotaur3]

Mr. Mistake wrote...

"Lost", anyone?

I'm beginning to... Where are the Star Wars and Lords of the Rings endings gone?...

[Milvushina]

I don't like that the theory requires for everything after the beam to be a hallucination. I can accept that Shepard was being fooled from the time the beam hit until the final choice, in fact, a lot of things about that last visit to the Citadel are really creepy and surreal. But I have trouble accepting that the Reapers' withdrawal and the surviving future humans are also a hallucination.

The whole game, I really wanted indoctrination to figure in somehow, and for Shepard to fight it in himself or a close loved one. I'd love it if they pulled a super tricky "indoctrinate the player" move. I think that would be amazing! But realistically I just don't think there's enough evidence that Shepard really was misled in the non-destructive endings.

[Sylvanfeather]

AgentMulder5 wrote...

crimsontotem wrote...

tuzem2 wrote...

jackncoke28 wrote...

The idea of the indoctrination is that he is being lied to and made to think he's doing the right thing. Both Saren and TIM wanted what they felt was best. Just imagine them in that room faced with the same choices Shepard has. TIM chose control, Saren chose synthesis. destruction was the only that didntnseem to pray on sheps insecurity about being able to save everyone, which the star child's image was ment to convey

Destroy kills the Geth and EDI. Why would this be a good ending?

OK I am not even going to bring philosophical note to this statement.
 
Can you explain to me the reason why it is the only  'Destroy' ending that shows us Shepard, partly synthetic which was implied by the kid that if you choose to destroy, it would kill you as well, breathing under the pile of concrete, mortars and rebars?

Because this choice is part of the hallucination. It's not real. You aren't really shooting some random tube that causes synthetics to die. It's a physical representation of Shepard saying **** you to the indoctrination attempt.

Couldn't that just be a manipulation by the Reapers trying to prevent Shepard from achieving the one thing they don't want - to be destroyed. I think a lot of people really liked either the Legion or EDI story arc, which makes the choice all the harder to make if you had an attachment to them. 

[lil_89]

RABicle wrote...

Sheperd died running towards the beam. They all did. The reapers won.

Everything from Sheperd's death onwards is told by the Stargazer to the child. They're people of the next cycle who know of Sheperd's legend through Liara's time capsules. They assume Sheperd defeated the Reapers because they are alive and everything is peaceful.

This actually makes sense. And would explain the space magic, Normandy and the crew surviving, things that you could tell a child in a fairy tell, a very dark and depressing fairy tale that is.

[tuzem2]

Milvushina wrote...

I don't like that the theory requires for everything after the beam to be a hallucination. I can accept that Shepard was being fooled from the time the beam hit until the final choice, in fact, a lot of things about that last visit to the Citadel are really creepy and surreal. But I have trouble accepting that the Reapers' withdrawal and the surviving future humans are also a hallucination.

The whole game, I really wanted indoctrination to figure in somehow, and for Shepard to fight it in himself or a close loved one. I'd love it if they pulled a super tricky "indoctrinate the player" move. I think that would be amazing! But realistically I just don't think there's enough evidence that Shepard really was misled in the non-destructive endings.

Agreed

[Sajuro]

tuzem2 wrote...

wryterra wrote...

tuzem2 wrote...

jackncoke28 wrote...

The idea of the indoctrination is that he is being lied to and made to think he's doing the right thing. Both Saren and TIM wanted what they felt was best. Just imagine them in that room faced with the same choices Shepard has. TIM chose control, Saren chose synthesis. destruction was the only that didntnseem to pray on sheps insecurity about being able to save everyone, which the star child's image was ment to convey

Destroy kills the Geth and EDI. Why would this be a good ending?

Sacrifices. All the way through the game we've seen characters making sacrifices. No one said it had to be a pure victory but that's the point, that's the false-choice the indoctrination gives you.

The catalyst CAN destroy synthetic life but it destroys *synthetic life*, you must sacrifice. Or you can compromise, in which case the Reapers win, but don't they just make compromise sound like the better bet?

Yeah but all that interaction between the Quarian and the Geth. Their progress. Legion sacraficed himself to basically save the Geth. Mordin sacraficed himself to save the Krogan. Shepard should sacrafice himself to save all civilization, not just the organics.

Both the Geth and EDI were willing to die to stop the Reapers, I wish they didn't have to die but I felt the sacrifice was well worth it to give organics a chance.

[WizenSlinky0]

Joyceee wrote...

JayDea wrote...

... But then, I can't figure how this hallucination could cause the destruction of the reapers. So what happens? Shepard and all the soldiers try to make it to the beam, they fail, dream/hallucination/whatever-yada-yada, paragon/synthesis ending and Shepard has a flashback before dying or renegade ending, he wakes up.
But he hasn't made it to the beam and thus the whole damn fleet is still engaged with the reapers. That's where we're at when the credits roll.

So, while I tend to agree with the halluciation idea, I can't fully adhere to it as it would mean the game wasn't finished and there could be a ME4 or something comming later on. It reminded me of Evangelion's ending, but Evangelion had and ending, ME3 doesn't.

This is a really good point, and others have raised it too. While the Indoctrination Theory makes so much sense, just how does this help them win the actual war that's raging outside on Earth? 

I had always thought that by overcoming the indoctrination attempt, the Reapers were somehow 'magically' defeated in reality, so that when Shepard wakes up in London the Reapers have collapsed and the war has been won.

But then: what the hell? How does that make sense?

Urgh, dear god I may actually be contributing to this theory.

Anyway if we take into account ME1's Saren experience...Soveriegn's shields went down once he lost control of Saren. Whether that was coincidence or not is debatable.

But on the chance it was because Saren was defeated and assuming the Catalyst itself is indoctrinating Shepard rather than just a reaper then it's a slim possibility that as the controller of the reapers that backlash of losing control of Shepard might, MIGHT pass on to the reapers themselves. Thereby making them much easier pickings.

[tuzem2]

lil_89 wrote...

RABicle wrote...

Sheperd died running towards the beam. They all did. The reapers won.

Everything from Sheperd's death onwards is told by the Stargazer to the child. They're people of the next cycle who know of Sheperd's legend through Liara's time capsules. They assume Sheperd defeated the Reapers because they are alive and everything is peaceful.

This actually makes sense. And would explain the space magic, Normandy and the crew surviving, things that you could tell a child in a fairy tell, a very dark and depressing fairy tale that is.

True...

[RABicle]

Elendstourist wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

RABicle wrote...

Sheperd died running towards the beam. They all did. The reapers won.

Everything from Sheperd's death onwards is told by the Stargazer to the child. They're people of the next cycle who know of Sheperd's legend through Liara's time capsules. They assume Sheperd defeated the Reapers because they are alive and everything is peaceful.

... that makes terrifyingly much sense...

How would he be alive and breathing then?

Eh, I didn't actually get the wake up buried in rubble bit in my game. Went in with just 3000 in war assets. If anything waking up in London shows that Sheperd never went to the Citadel.

Anyway, considering Sheperd's injuries and the scale of destruction, it's unlikely she was ever found or recovered. Sheperd's dead nomatter the ending you choose. The Reapers won, because they had to.

[Mr. Mistake]

Stargazer isn't human. Look at the child's silloette, that's not what human kids look like. Even if you disagree, Asari or Batarians would still have a very similar silloette profile to humans. Stargazer postulates that the stars may contain anything the child wishes, and that the stars 'may have planets orbiting. Stargazer's cilivilization is not interstar-spacefaring.

Ah, Stargazer. The dude who talks to a kid who wants to know about stars. We have dismissed that claim.

By the time I first saw Stargazer, the trololo song was ringing so loudly in my ears that they were bleeding, so I ran to the bathroom and avoided making any kind of sense of it all.

[jackncoke28]

Terraforming2154 wrote...

tuzem2 wrote...

jackncoke28 wrote...

The idea of the indoctrination is that he is being lied to and made to think he's doing the right thing. Both Saren and TIM wanted what they felt was best. Just imagine them in that room faced with the same choices Shepard has. TIM chose control, Saren chose synthesis. destruction was the only that didntnseem to pray on sheps insecurity about being able to save everyone, which the star child's image was ment to convey

Destroy kills the Geth and EDI. Why would this be a good ending?

Honestly, I feel like the concept of sacrifice was played up more in this game than in the others.

Garrus mentions sacrifice twice - in one conversation when you first get him on ship, he suggests that humans want to save everyone and it might not be a possibility. He also dances around it as well after the VS stands opposed to Udina (he asks if you would have shot them if they hadn't).
Also, Javik has a very profound comment when Shep says she thinks she can win the war with honor intact. He says, "stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honour matters. The silence is your answer."

Of course this all may mean nothing, but I don't remember the other games pushing concepts like that at me before.

I think one of the bigest things being played up also is sheps inability to save everyone, people are dying all around him. The symbol of this is the child who sez to shep that he cant save him, the fact that the catalyst is using that child's image tells me that he is trying to play up that insecurity, forcing shepard to make the choice that sacrifices the least amount of people, regardless of the fact that the reapers will remain

[humes spork]

Also, to add another meta argument...there's no real in-gameplay moment of catharsis in the final sequence. Typically in BioWare games there's a sequence near the end when you really just get to cut loose, exercise all that muscle you've gained throughout the game and tear sh*t up against waves of mooks, to amp the player up for the grand finale. Contrast DA:O for example, when in Denerim all of the enemies are downranked one step so you're even tearing through ogres, or even in the ME series itself (the Citadel tower climb when you're tearing through dozens of weak geth, or the suicide mission finale when you're blasting away generic collectors left and right).

In ME3 the closest you get is the no man's land before the missiles, and even that's a pretty tough fight you have to think your way through. I figured, true to BW form, that moment would be the final push to the Conduit and you'd be tearing through husks and cannibals like nobody's business or even on the Citadel. In addition to the final boss, that just never happens which leaves the player pent up for a climax that doesn't come.

[Lurchibald]

vertibird1 wrote...

If it was a hallucination then what about the Normandy on the tropical planet? it kinda looks like Bioware intended it to be a real and final ending which sucks

Seroiusly? the whole point is that the Normandy shouldn't even be where it is, it (again) is part of the Alliance fleet and Both the crew and Admiral Hackett wouldn't run away.

[I...AM...KROGAN]

I haven't read all 181 pages, so I apologize if most of my points have already been made.

The first thing that struck me as odd was that Shepard has a psychological profile at the beginning of Mass Effect 3. I assumed it was due to the events of Arrival, but now I'm thinking it may be a clue to us that Shepard isn't in full control of his mind. Let me ask everyone this: is it not curious that indoctrination happens to anyone who comes into contact with Reapers or reaper tech, yet Shepard isn't indoctrinated despite numerous encounters? Let's review (I may miss some).

ME1- Shepard sees Sovereign on Eden Prime, Virmire and the Citadel. NPCs exhibit symptoms of indoctrination during their short exposure to Sovereign.

ME2- Shepard enters a "dead" Reaper and collects its IFF. Researchers left datapads confirming that the derelict Reaper still emitted its indoctrination field (powerful enough to make the researchers kill themselves with dragon's teeth and become husks). Then, we fight the Human Reaper in the Collector's Base. And finally, Spepard is knocked unconscious and spends (two?) days near the Reaper artifact in Arrival. Kenson and others have become badly indoctrinated during their time near the artifact.

My question is, how could Shepard not be indoctrinated after all of that exposure? Is he magically immune to its effects?

Knowing the symptoms of indoctrination and reviewing everything that happens during Mass Effect 3, how can there be any doubt that the ending isn't actually taking place. Or, if it is, it must be a gross distortion of reality. Shepard just happens to be able to choose the three options that we've heard about in the previous games? Saren wanted to merge, Illusive Man wants to control, and Shepard obviously demands destruction of the Reapers. No force in this Universe could make him think otherwise. His entire purpose of existence in the Mass Effect universe is stopping the Reapers. At any cost!

Beside the dreamlike state of the conclusion, why is Shepard suddenly having nightmares about this child? He knowingly sacrificed 300,000 Batarians in order to delay the Reapers by a couple months... and he barely batted an eyelash at this horrific crime. Now he's teary eyed over some kid getting blown up? This man has been through hell and back and never flinched, so why would he break at this point? He wouldn't. He's conditioned not to. And the thing is, he hasn't broken because the Shepard we knew at the beginning of Mass Effect isn't with us anymore. He's become/becoming a slave to the Reapers.

The ending? That's what indoctrination looks like. Whether or not we receive a proper ending via DLC is anyone's guess. Either way, the clues are everywhere that Shepard is experiencing what he should've experienced long ago.

[RiGoRmOrTiS_UK]

On the destroy ending they say all synthetic life (including shepard) will die. The destroy ending has shepard shooting the thing, while the other two have him killing himself by throwing his body into something (beam being death) and synthesis being full indoctrination. Destroy is him over coming indoctrination and living (because it doesn't destroy all synthetic life, just the reapers specifically)

[Joyceee]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Joyceee wrote...

JayDea wrote...

... But then, I can't figure how this hallucination could cause the destruction of the reapers. So what happens? Shepard and all the soldiers try to make it to the beam, they fail, dream/hallucination/whatever-yada-yada, paragon/synthesis ending and Shepard has a flashback before dying or renegade ending, he wakes up.
But he hasn't made it to the beam and thus the whole damn fleet is still engaged with the reapers. That's where we're at when the credits roll.

So, while I tend to agree with the halluciation idea, I can't fully adhere to it as it would mean the game wasn't finished and there could be a ME4 or something comming later on. It reminded me of Evangelion's ending, but Evangelion had and ending, ME3 doesn't.

This is a really good point, and others have raised it too. While the Indoctrination Theory makes so much sense, just how does this help them win the actual war that's raging outside on Earth? 

I had always thought that by overcoming the indoctrination attempt, the Reapers were somehow 'magically' defeated in reality, so that when Shepard wakes up in London the Reapers have collapsed and the war has been won.

But then: what the hell? How does that make sense?

Urgh, dear god I may actually be contributing to this theory.

Anyway if we take into account ME1's Saren experience...Soveriegn's shields went down once he lost control of Saren. Whether that was coincidence or not is debatable.

But on the chance it was because Saren was defeated and assuming the Catalyst itself is indoctrinating Shepard rather than just a reaper then it's a slim possibility that as the controller of the reapers that backlash of losing control of Shepard might, MIGHT pass on to the reapers themselves. Thereby making them much easier pickings.

Oh! Wow. Ok. Proves I have to go read more Mass Effect lore. Thanks for the clarification, WizenSlinky0! Completely forgot about Saren from ME1. Ugh, all this speculation surrounding the ending of a game is turning my head in.

Modifié par Joyceee, 12 mars 2012 - 05:29 .

[3Minotaur3]

I bet Bioware are taking notes from this thread to save their ****...

[Mr. Mistake]

3Minotaur3 wrote...

Mr. Mistake wrote...

"Lost", anyone?

I'm beginning to... Where are the Star Wars and Lords of the Rings endings gone?...

I lost you, man, sorry.

But if your point is what I think your point is...

I just have to say that we have come such a long way since Mass Effect (the first one) that they wouldn't end this epic trilogy in such a (less disappointing than) nonsensical way.

I think Stephen King's The Dark Tower had the best ending ever. I don't see why BioWare couldn't pull off something as epic.

Modifié par Mr. Mistake, 12 mars 2012 - 05:23 .

[WizenSlinky0]

RABicle wrote...

Stargazer isn't human. Look at the child's silloette, that's not what human kids look like. Even if you disagree, Asari or Batarians would still have a very similar silloette profile to humans. Stargazer postulates that the stars may contain anything the child wishes, and that the stars 'may have planets orbiting. Stargazer's cilivilization is not interstar-spacefaring.

Sure looked human to me *shrug* To each their own.

[Tashakov]

To counter Stargazer's scene is simple.

Liara approaches you for the sole reason of preparing "capsules" of information about the Reaper threat, and the war for survival. She includes extensive data on Shepard in this. Then, she spreads them over the galaxy.

Stargazer is in a pre-space flight civilization. Therefore, whatever planet he is on would almost definitely be involved in the next cycle, should Shepard fail. Since they are planet-bound, they have no way of knowing if it succeeded or not.

It makes just as much sense as the alternative; Shepard went up to the Crucible's true controls alone after Anderson died. Made the choice with no contact to anyone. There is no possible way anyone could know what happened up there unless Shepard survived. Therefore, Stargazer contradicts Synthesize, Control, and low-EMS Destroy more than he does the hallucination theory.

And if Stargazer *is* a descendant of the crashed Normandy? How would anyone there know what happened? Or that they even won...? Joker apparently ran for the relay or jumped to FTL to avoid the blast. If he's already running when the blast happens, it obviously doesn't look like a win to him. The last thing any of the crew could POSSIBLY know is that Shepard got hit by a giant laser while running towards the beam. That's assuming Joker somehow picked up your two squaddies and they didn't die.

Modifié par adrianlocke647, 12 mars 2012 - 05:27 .

[AM94]

The fact that the godchild looks exactly like the little boy in the beginning of the game, and doesnt even look like a VI that we've ever seen has to mean something.