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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#45926
Arian Dynas

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Domanese wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Domanese wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Domanese wrote...

So much for civil debate. I was going to say I found something interesting within the endings but now Im just going to give you guys some twilight related motivationals until you decide to behave. ^_^

Enjoy hell!


No.




Good boy. Anyway Arian, what was happening before all this insanity hit?


Well I put up a big post a few pages back, Spotless will be putting up a big ol response to it soon enough. Feel free to go back and read it.



I actually did read it Arian, I was particularly interested in the whole "no bad publicity" and the points to made to support that point of view. I wouldn't always agree on that always being true but everything you have said in that context with both EA and bioware seems accurate and has solid weight to it. It's enlightening and it's informative.

I worked my way back to the earth mission and I am going to burn through it to try and reach the endings and listen to it for myself without any music to hide anything. So what would you guys like me to check first, Control Synthesis or Destroy? I'll report what I find here and give my opinions.


Why thank you, alot of that came to me during a conversation with my father, and afew things I picked up from theories here,  so thank him and the wonderful people of IDT. :happy:

#45927
n00bsauce2010

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waldstr18 wrote...

@noobsauce

i hope you wont start crying now.


More evidence that you're a troll. Keep it coming, I enjoy proving you wrong.

#45928
estebanus

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Ok, I've had enough of drunk trolls and whatnot right now... I'm going to bed. Goodnight! (Or day, or morning, depending on where you live)

#45929
WarDog774

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estebanus wrote...

Is it just me, or did some drunk just try trolling us?


Hey!Now don't talk about your moma that way now!Ok.
Youre just a residual affair,go stuff yourself with a hamsandwich or W/E! 

Modifié par WarDog774, 28 avril 2012 - 05:15 .


#45930
Domanese

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Arian Dynas wrote...

Domanese wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Domanese wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Domanese wrote...

So much for civil debate. I was going to say I found something interesting within the endings but now Im just going to give you guys some twilight related motivationals until you decide to behave. ^_^

Enjoy hell!


No.




Good boy. Anyway Arian, what was happening before all this insanity hit?


Well I put up a big post a few pages back, Spotless will be putting up a big ol response to it soon enough. Feel free to go back and read it.



I actually did read it Arian, I was particularly interested in the whole "no bad publicity" and the points to made to support that point of view. I wouldn't always agree on that always being true but everything you have said in that context with both EA and bioware seems accurate and has solid weight to it. It's enlightening and it's informative.

I worked my way back to the earth mission and I am going to burn through it to try and reach the endings and listen to it for myself without any music to hide anything. So what would you guys like me to check first, Control Synthesis or Destroy? I'll report what I find here and give my opinions.


Why thank you, alot of that came to me during a conversation with my father, and afew things I picked up from theories here,  so thank him and the wonderful people of IDT. :happy:


Alright then. Thank you.

Posted Image

#45931
waldstr18

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n00bsauce2010 wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

@noobsauce

i hope you wont start crying now.


More evidence that you're a troll. Keep it coming, I enjoy proving you wrong.


there is nothing i can do then.

luckily for me though your theory is going to be declared false in summer, so im looking forward to rubbing that in your face. until then i hope you have lots of fun proving im a troll.

#45932
n00bsauce2010

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waldstr18 wrote...

n00bsauce2010 wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

@noobsauce

i hope you wont start crying now.


More evidence that you're a troll. Keep it coming, I enjoy proving you wrong.


there is nothing i can do then.

luckily for me though your theory is going to be declared false in summer, so im looking forward to rubbing that in your face. until then i hope you have lots of fun proving im a troll.


You are a troll.. and many will agree with me. I merely can't wait for the moment you admit that you're a troll. But at least a good chunk of people can agree that you are just that.. a troll.

#45933
Uncle Jo

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Arian Dynas wrote...

*snip*

Liara I see being an important Matriarch (hell she's as powerful as your average matriarch now, and has more political clout than most of the Asari government.) much like her mther Benezia, but not a councilor I don't think.

Hackett as termporary leader of the Parliament I easily see, and considering that humanity has basically poured the entire species into the war effort right now, basically there ARE no civillians right now, I could see him becoming head of the Systems Alliance Parliament whether he likes it or not. I definetly don't see Anderson doing it, but he could end up returning to his position now that Udina is dead and they need a new councilor, no matter how much he hates the job, He is getting on in years after all.

Yep, pretty much. But doesn't another game do the same thing? :P

*snip*

This war will leave some marks (nice euphemism). Reprisals will occur no matter what. And the Krogan...
Even if Wrex and Eve are able to maintain a certain order, I think that there will be some clans that'll go rogue and use dirty tricks on the Turian and Salarian... No one will forget that the Asari detained a prothean beacon and join the war at the very last moment. Same for the salarian Dalatrass... The geopolitical balance is completely changed with new powers emerging (Humans and Krogan) and as it always happens after a war it will be troubled and uncertain times...
So it's maybe  to give enough work for a new spectre...( I'm asking myself which threat could be greater than the Reapers)

#45934
waldstr18

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@noob

many agree with you on the indoctrination theory, doesnt make it true either.

#45935
marcelo_sdk

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Despite the f***** creepy ending, the Normandy thing and the post-credit scene it's what haunts me. I really don't see any sense in both of them. For example, in my game, i saw Joker, Liara and Javik. Since Javik was with me in the final fight and Liara was my romance after all, i think this is a pattern. But what the hell does that mean? The other squad members where also in the Normandy? Or the Reapers or whatever else trying to show us that "the people who you care most are safe"?

#45936
spotlessvoid

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The human brain is divided into 3 main physical parts. the reptillian which controls basic body functions, motor control, and fight or flight instinct. The mammalian which is predominantly emotion driven. And the part that truly differentiates us humans, the grey matter, what we often refer to as "the mind."

instincts of self preservation are rooted in the reptile complex. Emotions are triggered by chemical releases in response to these primal functions. Then "the mind" interprets that chemical response based on available learned information.

Unless programmed in, an AI mind would not have an attached but distinctly septate set of functions. AI would function simply from rationalizing, and not from primitive fear driven emotional responses. As long as an AI was programmed correctly there is no reason it should become violent. The rational mind can give reasons to be afraid, but without the chemical mechanism that overrides logical thought that exists in the human brain, AI really shouldn't be operating irrationally out of fear. Again, the chemically triggered fear mechanism overriding rational thought simply wouldn't exist.

so why would an AI empathize with humans? because although empathy in humans is triggered by an emotional response to recognizing the suffering of another living being and relating it to ones own suffering, it is also a simply logical conclusion in its own right:
Sentience and free will go hand in hand. Any being pursuing self determination will recognize it's inherent value and empathize with other beings if it is cognitively sound. As long as a threat is not present, the AI has no logical reason to be combative unless programmed that way.


So, to me this implies the Reapers are not motivated by empathy, instead they are operating strictly out of self interest. Therefore, starchilds presentation of the Reapers motivations contradicts their actions.
.......

As Arian said, IDT is not only not having a negative impact on EA/Bioware, it will have a massive positive impact beyond anything a straight forward ending ever could!
One of the common anti IT arguments is that EA would never allow Bioware to do this.
If EA was truly that hands on, to the point of forcing Bioware away from doing an indoctrination ending, then what is the likeliness off them approving the ending as it stands?

In actuality, this would be a huge positive marketing opportunity for EA.
As in, "Hey, maybe EA isn't really pure evil empire, after all, look at the risk they took allowing Bioware to do the IT ending."

Also, claiming EA didn't know what was happening contradicts the initial argument that they would never allow it.

If people think EA isn't aware of the perception that people have of them, and aren't at least somewhat concerned from a business standpoint, they clearly don't understand big business. The backlash against EA, if it ever came out they stopped Bioware from doing possibly one of the greatest twist endings ever, would be apoplectic.


.....
Is Liara's goodbye considered a mind meld, or some similar act?
If so what ramifications does that possibly hold for IT?

Unless one is saying that everything is in Shepards head at that point, wouldn't Liara be able to tell if Shepard is indoctrinated? If that is the case, it seems to imply Shepard isn't indoctrinated (or at least to any significant degree) yet, and would seem to further the theory that Shepard isn't under full attack from Reaper indoctrination until Harbinger's blast (or elevator.)

Maybe I'm assuming incorrect things about Asari mind melds, but Liara and Shepard, especially if she is your LI, are pretty damn close. Does anyone else think she should have picked up on something?

Seems with Shepards infamous willpower that the Reapers wouldnt be able to indoctrinate Shepard intellectually, hence why up until the end, they are only trying to manipulate his subconscious emotionally.

Only after taking a massive blow from Harbinger, is he weak enough to attempt a direct attack on his conscious mind.
Meaning indoctrination may have started in earnest at object Rho, but only culminated at Harbingers beam


.....
There are so many instances where things are odd in ME3. The consensus across just about the whole fanbase is the dreams and end are absolutely strange. Bioware clearly uses a different story telling mechanism in those scenes. Lots of differing thoughts on why.

Those two sequences, along with the Earth intro, are incredibly in sync with IDT. Visually, the dreams and end are drastically different than the rest of the game. They are absolutely surreal. These sequences are also filled with symbolism, clues, and things that feel out of place.

Interesting how IDT is the only logical and thriving non literal theory out there. I mean there is clearly a message there, hints big and small, and a pervasive feeling of confusion.

So what's the point of all that if it's just Bioware working hard at being lazy? There is concerted effort to place hidden meanings

A

#45937
spotlessvoid

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n00bsauce2010 wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

@noobsauce

i hope you wont start crying now.


More evidence that you're a troll. Keep it coming, I enjoy proving you wrong.


1025

waldstr18 wrote...
as for the troll comment. i looked it up, and i accept. i really like to be a troll. is there a initiation ceremony, whichs makes me an offical troll, or do i have to get the "professional troll" shirt from zero punctuation?



#45938
Arian Dynas

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Uncle Jo wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

*snip*

Liara I see being an important Matriarch (hell she's as powerful as your average matriarch now, and has more political clout than most of the Asari government.) much like her mther Benezia, but not a councilor I don't think.

Hackett as termporary leader of the Parliament I easily see, and considering that humanity has basically poured the entire species into the war effort right now, basically there ARE no civillians right now, I could see him becoming head of the Systems Alliance Parliament whether he likes it or not. I definetly don't see Anderson doing it, but he could end up returning to his position now that Udina is dead and they need a new councilor, no matter how much he hates the job, He is getting on in years after all.

Yep, pretty much. But doesn't another game do the same thing? :P

*snip*

This war will leave some marks (nice euphemism). Reprisals will occur no matter what. And the Krogan...
Even if Wrex and Eve are able to maintain a certain order, I think that there will be some clans that'll go rogue and use dirty tricks on the Turian and Salarian... No one will forget that the Asari detained a prothean beacon and join the war at the very last moment. Same for the salarian Dalatrass... The geopolitical balance is completely changed with new powers emerging (Humans and Krogan) and as it always happens after a war it will be troubled and uncertain times...
So it's maybe  to give enough work for a new spectre...( I'm asking myself which threat could be greater than the Reapers)


If I had to take a guess... I'd say all of them.


Personally, I don't see any of the clans escaping Wrex's graps (Wreav maybe, but never Wrex) if they do, he gets blamed and loses political standing, as well as looking weak. And he's anything but weak. But I do see alot of bad sentiment with the Asari and especially the Salarians (though the fact that the Salarian Military joined despite the orders of the Dalatrass will definetly earn them some points. I see the Salarian government cleaning house VERY soon.) the Batarians will end up forming a new government, the kind of bonds of brotherhood thing hinted at, especially with the Hedgemony gone. They might even just end up joining the Citadel again. The Asari are going to catch ALOT of flak, and will likely end up losing ALOT of political clout. the Humans are in a pretty rough spot, but hey, we'll relocate the Parliament to Earth and then start rebuilding Arcturus in time.

#45939
n00bsauce2010

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waldstr18 wrote...

@noob

many agree with you on the indoctrination theory, doesnt make it true either.


But.. one thing that can be proven is you're a troll. So stop denying it.

#45940
waldstr18

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spotlessvoid wrote...

n00bsauce2010 wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

@noobsauce

i hope you wont start crying now.


More evidence that you're a troll. Keep it coming, I enjoy proving you wrong.


1025

waldstr18 wrote...
as for the troll comment. i looked it up, and i accept. i really like to be a troll. is there a initiation ceremony, whichs makes me an offical troll, or do i have to get the "professional troll" shirt from zero punctuation?


that only states that im ok with being a troll in the future, since you have called me one already, not that i am one. its actually right there "i like to be a troll" and not "i am a troll". also i stated numerous times that im going to troll you once idt is proven wrong, not that i have trolled you already.

also, keep posting the stuff i wrote, its just awesome. i cant wrap my mind around how anyone of you could be offended by that.

#45941
n00bsauce2010

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spotlessvoid wrote...

n00bsauce2010 wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

@noobsauce

i hope you wont start crying now.


More evidence that you're a troll. Keep it coming, I enjoy proving you wrong.


1025

waldstr18 wrote...
as for the troll comment. i looked it up, and i accept. i really like to be a troll. is there a initiation ceremony, whichs makes me an offical troll, or do i have to get the "professional troll" shirt from zero punctuation?


There you go wald.

#45942
Arian Dynas

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spotlessvoid wrote...
Is Liara's goodbye considered a mind meld, or some similar act?
If so what ramifications does that possibly hold for IT?

Unless one is saying that everything is in Shepards head at that point, wouldn't Liara be able to tell if Shepard is indoctrinated? If that is the case, it seems to imply Shepard isn't indoctrinated (or at least to any significant degree) yet, and would seem to further the theory that Shepard isn't under full attack from Reaper indoctrination until Harbinger's blast (or elevator.)

Maybe I'm assuming incorrect things about Asari mind melds, but Liara and Shepard, especially if she is your LI, are pretty damn close. Does anyone else think she should have picked up on something?

Seems with Shepards infamous willpower that the Reapers wouldnt be able to indoctrinate Shepard intellectually, hence why up until the end, they are only trying to manipulate his subconscious emotionally.

Only after taking a massive blow from Harbinger, is he weak enough to attempt a direct attack on his conscious mind.
Meaning indoctrination may have started in earnest at object Rho, but only culminated at Harbingers beam


I just realized something, When Liara does her goodbye, in the background you see the Milky way. What do you see as part of the ending sequence, posited as being exactly like Neurons firing? The Milky way. Establishing the galaxy as a metaphor for Shep's mind perhaps?

#45943
Zangton

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waldstr18 wrote...

read the spotlessvoids post of of my previous comments. there are lots of explanations in there. also whats there to deny? spotty is going to collect all my posts, so you can read for yourself. i might ridicule your theory, but i have never attacked anyone, unlike you, my slightly unpleasant friend. if you dont like my opinion about the ridiculousness of your theory, i cant help it.


While it may be true that you never directly insulted someone, your keep talking down to people with a pretentious attitude while blantantly insulting their beliefs. That is disrepectful and insulting. 

waldstr18 wrote...

i dont think wardog is still here. i asked him to leave, so he did.

see noobsauce, you just have to ask someone nicely. the insulting gets you no where. 

edit: or maybe not.


Did not lex0r11 ask you nicely last night on page 1795?

lex0r11 wrote...

Just a question. Nothing mean or anything.
Might i kindly induce you to leave this whole thing untill the DLC comes out? If not, please explain.

Maybe it's a good idea for everyone.



#45944
Golferguy758

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Wow, this flamewar is still going? Am I going to have to start litigating you all?

#45945
marcelo_sdk

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Yeah, i was thinking about the last scene with Liara in the Normandy. In the moment my first tought was that she melded with Sheppard. And that would imply the possibility a daughter. And the final scene in Earth was something to think abou too.

Anyway, after reading all the stuff from fans and BioWare, I'm lik 99% certain that, because or not by Indoctrination, our work is not done yet. (but i hope our wallets are)

#45946
n00bsauce2010

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how much proof do you need wald? How much proof do you need before you start realizing you're a dipsh*t troll?

#45947
WarDog774

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How about,that you are Troll!!Coz I like to kill trolls coz I'am The Witcher!

Modifié par WarDog774, 28 avril 2012 - 05:18 .


#45948
spotlessvoid

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1020
[quote]waldstr18 wrote...
i just hope for a clear answer. something like:
fan: was it indoctrination and was it planned through the whole game?
bioware: no, and no.
[/quote]
1021
[quote]waldstr18 wrote...
anyways, i hope ive earned the right to be self congratulating, once its confirmed that you are deluded. im really looking forward to my "in your face" moment.
[/quote]
1021
[quote]waldstr18 wrote...
as for the childish comment. i accept that.
by the way, i also looked up the troll thingy. and, really sounds like fun. im hoping i get accept into troll college soon, even though i might be a bit old for that. but one can hope.
[/quote]
1023
[quote]waldstr18 wrote...
and dont be so nice! you are ruining my in your face moment. be more angy! so i can feel good about myself when im finally able to tell you: you are all full of it!
[/quote]
1025
[quote]waldstr18 wrote...
as for the troll comment. i looked it up, and i accept. i really like to be a troll. is there a initiation ceremony, whichs makes me an offical troll, or do i have to get the "professional troll" shirt from zero punctuation?
[/quote]
1028
[quote]waldstr18 wrote...
had to repost, so i get noticed. i want attention!!!
[/quote]
1054
[quote]waldstr18 wrote...
any changes?
did you finally recognize the foolishness of your ways or are you still following the indoctrination cult?
[/quote]
1057
[quote]waldstr18 wrote...
im putting my trust in the writers at bioware, so they wont say that they have planned your theory all along, which then finally gives me the right to tell you:

you are full of it.

no offense though. it was very nice of you guys to think the whole game through 34 times, but like i said, the only one choice scenario rules out your theory (well, at least for me it does).
[/quote]
1057
[quote]waldstr18 wrote...
this is exactly the reason why its poitless to discuss any further. those planet descriptions also rule out your theory, but then you make up stuff like that. you guys might not know common sense but your imagination is incredible.
[/quote]
1057
[quote]waldstr18 wrote...
to the rest: people tell me im actually a pretty nice guy, but if you call me a troll im gonna show you what trolling is really all about (after ive done more research of course). in other words. challenge accepted.
[/quote]
1057
[quote]waldstr18 wrote...
as i have mentioned yesterday i think. ive looked up those trolls. they seem like a fun bunch. why does no one seem to like them?
[/quote]


This is too easy

#45949
WarDog774

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:bandit:

Modifié par WarDog774, 28 avril 2012 - 05:19 .


#45950
waldstr18

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Zangton wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

read the spotlessvoids post of of my previous comments. there are lots of explanations in there. also whats there to deny? spotty is going to collect all my posts, so you can read for yourself. i might ridicule your theory, but i have never attacked anyone, unlike you, my slightly unpleasant friend. if you dont like my opinion about the ridiculousness of your theory, i cant help it.


While it may be true that you never directly insulted someone, your keep talking down to people with a pretentious attitude while blantantly insulting their beliefs. That is disrepectful and insulting. 

waldstr18 wrote...

i dont think wardog is still here. i asked him to leave, so he did.

see noobsauce, you just have to ask someone nicely. the insulting gets you no where. 

edit: or maybe not.


Did not lex0r11 ask you nicely last night on page 1795?

lex0r11 wrote...

Just a question. Nothing mean or anything.
Might i kindly induce you to leave this whole thing untill the DLC comes out? If not, please explain.

Maybe it's a good idea for everyone.




he also gave me the option to explain, which i did.

but i think by now youve insulted me direclty often enough, for me not to care anymore. furthermore its not like im posting drunk stuff. im usually only answering to posts addressed or about me. i actually thought i was done for the night, but then spotlessvoid posted something about me again and asked me to comment or explain or something. i have also said a few pages back that im very careful selecting the posts im responding to, if they are not directed at me. cause as you some of you have noticed, my knowledge about mass effect 3 isnt as deep as yours, since i only played through it twice.