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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#46301
paxxton

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spotlessvoid wrote...

Taken from a post from gibbed on the Something Awful forums, this is the way the endings are described in the game's code: enum EEndGameOption { EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthDestroyed, EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthDevastated, EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthOk, EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthOkShepardAlive, EGO_BecomeAReaperAndEarthDestroyedAndReapersLeave, EGO_BecomeAReaperAndEarthOkAndReapersLeave, EGO_HarmonyOfManAndMachine, EGO_Demo, EGO_None, EGO_MAX, }

That is discouraging, but it's not impossible those are the face value names while IDT is still the true ending


This might be true. Why would BioWare programmers include readable type info in a compiled executable? This approach just increases file size and memory requirements.

Modifié par paxxton, 28 avril 2012 - 04:04 .


#46302
DirtyPhoenix

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

What does EGS_MAX and EGS_OutInABlazeOfGlory denote? I know about the other two.

Blaze of Glory can be that shep is sacrificing him/herself.
MAX, as with EGO_MAX... idk


No what I meant was, I have savegames from all the three types of endings, and also unfinished games. The NG+ saves of finished ones read: LivedToFightAgain, in all three endings, while the unfinished ones read: Not Finished (obviously).. I'm yet to see the other two..

Try the legend save.


Legend save's got not finished..

#46303
MegumiAzusa

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paxxton wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Taken from a post from gibbed on the Something Awful forums, this is the way the endings are described in the game's code: enum EEndGameOption { EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthDestroyed, EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthDevastated, EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthOk, EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthOkShepardAlive, EGO_BecomeAReaperAndEarthDestroyedAndReapersLeave, EGO_BecomeAReaperAndEarthOkAndReapersLeave, EGO_HarmonyOfManAndMachine, EGO_Demo, EGO_None, EGO_MAX, }

That is discouraging, but it's not impossible those are the face value names while IDT is still the true ending


This might be true. Why would BioWare programmers include readable type info in a compiled executable? This approach just increases file size and memory requirements. Unless they want to unofficially support the modding community.

That is just the standard how VS compiles c++ enums.

#46304
HellishFiend

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...


On that note ill throw my Rachni Idea for a IT ending out here again.

We all know the quote on how the Rachni would play a big role in the ending, but enver got it. Well I have been thinking about the Rachni Queens quote on "We will add our voice to yours" from ME1 and what if we took more literally?

We know the Rachni can interact with the mind of living creatures (the asari in ME2) and the Rachni queen is immune or at leats heavily resistant to indoctrination. So imagine a scenario where a player who spared the Rachni in ME1 and 3 picks Control or Synthesis aka Indoctrination, but the Rachni Queen intervennes linking or interacting with Shepards mind in a way that makes him able to resist or break free so that a "good" ending can be achieved despite the choice made. The cost of such a end could be the Rachni Queens death as she needs to get close enough to Shepard to interact with his mind.

Purely an idea, but would full fill the "Rachni have a major role in the ending" promise. Maybe the crystal and Javiks memory shard could work in similar ways,  but to varius degrees of effectiveness.

Like:

Eve Crystal: Able to break free if you choose the least "Indoctrinating" of Control/Synthesis and only long enough to finish the mission. Shepard dies no matter what.

Javik Shard: Break free no matter ending choosen, but only the least "Indoctrinating" ending will allow Shepard to survive through a paragon/renegade check while the other will always have Shepard dying after/during the completion of the mission.

Rachni Queen: Break free and survive. Rachni Queen dies instead.

Hope that made sense and again only idea.


I like your idea. :) Something along those lines would give long-time/thorough players a way to survive the indoctrination process even if they mess up as long as their choices earlier on were solid. 

#46305
paxxton

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Why would BioWare programmers include readable type info in a compiled executable? This approach just increases file size and memory requirements.

That is just the standard how VS compiles c++ enums.

Is there a way to change that?

Modifié par paxxton, 28 avril 2012 - 04:27 .


#46306
Uncle Jo

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HellishFiend wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...


On that note ill throw my Rachni Idea for a IT ending out here again.

We all know the quote on how the Rachni would play a big role in the ending, but enver got it. Well I have been thinking about the Rachni Queens quote on "We will add our voice to yours" from ME1 and what if we took more literally?

We know the Rachni can interact with the mind of living creatures (the asari in ME2) and the Rachni queen is immune or at leats heavily resistant to indoctrination. So imagine a scenario where a player who spared the Rachni in ME1 and 3 picks Control or Synthesis aka Indoctrination, but the Rachni Queen intervennes linking or interacting with Shepards mind in a way that makes him able to resist or break free so that a "good" ending can be achieved despite the choice made. The cost of such a end could be the Rachni Queens death as she needs to get close enough to Shepard to interact with his mind.

Purely an idea, but would full fill the "Rachni have a major role in the ending" promise. Maybe the crystal and Javiks memory shard could work in similar ways,  but to varius degrees of effectiveness.

Like:

Eve Crystal: Able to break free if you choose the least "Indoctrinating" of Control/Synthesis and only long enough to finish the mission. Shepard dies no matter what.

Javik Shard: Break free no matter ending choosen, but only the least "Indoctrinating" ending will allow Shepard to survive through a paragon/renegade check while the other will always have Shepard dying after/during the completion of the mission.

Rachni Queen: Break free and survive. Rachni Queen dies instead.

Hope that made sense and again only idea.


I like your idea. :) Something along those lines would give long-time/thorough players a way to survive the indoctrination process even if they mess up as long as their choices earlier on were solid. 



Yup like it too, the two items (from Javik and Eve) were well ignored. But won't it be too easy to break the indoc ?
I mean, most of the players won't choose the blue option and the breaking indoctrination process, imo, should be a one-to-one mind fight... Furthermore it would milden the effect of the twist-ending, the player should
only notice he was indoctrinated after his choice... Just my take though...
Anyway I find the role of the Rachni Queen in your scenario very interesting. She's not just reduced to a War Asset....

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 28 avril 2012 - 04:40 .


#46307
Raistlin Majare 1992

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Uncle Jo wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...


On that note ill throw my Rachni Idea for a IT ending out here again.

We all know the quote on how the Rachni would play a big role in the ending, but enver got it. Well I have been thinking about the Rachni Queens quote on "We will add our voice to yours" from ME1 and what if we took more literally?

We know the Rachni can interact with the mind of living creatures (the asari in ME2) and the Rachni queen is immune or at leats heavily resistant to indoctrination. So imagine a scenario where a player who spared the Rachni in ME1 and 3 picks Control or Synthesis aka Indoctrination, but the Rachni Queen intervennes linking or interacting with Shepards mind in a way that makes him able to resist or break free so that a "good" ending can be achieved despite the choice made. The cost of such a end could be the Rachni Queens death as she needs to get close enough to Shepard to interact with his mind.

Purely an idea, but would full fill the "Rachni have a major role in the ending" promise. Maybe the crystal and Javiks memory shard could work in similar ways,  but to varius degrees of effectiveness.

Like:

Eve Crystal: Able to break free if you choose the least "Indoctrinating" of Control/Synthesis and only long enough to finish the mission. Shepard dies no matter what.

Javik Shard: Break free no matter ending choosen, but only the least "Indoctrinating" ending will allow Shepard to survive through a paragon/renegade check while the other will always have Shepard dying after/during the completion of the mission.

Rachni Queen: Break free and survive. Rachni Queen dies instead.

Hope that made sense and again only idea.


I like your idea. :) Something along those lines would give long-time/thorough players a way to survive the indoctrination process even if they mess up as long as their choices earlier on were solid. 



Yup like it too, the two items (from Javik and Eve) were well ignored. But won't it be too easy to break the indoc ?
I mean, most of the players won't choose the blue option and the breaking indoctrination process, imo, should be a one-to-one mind fight... Furthermore it would milden the effect of the twist-ending, the player should
only notice he was indoctrinated after his choice... Just my take though...
Anyway I find the role of the Rachni Queen in your scenario very interesting. She's not just reduced to a War Asset....


Off course, but as has been mentioned many players would probably be a bit butthurt if two of three choices ended in automatic game over (though it woyuld also be kinda awesome) This is just possible scenarios for avoding it without actually forcing a player to pick destroy.

Besides the trope about a certain object creating a focus for a character to break free of mind effects is old. The crystal might be weak in this context (and why I placed it lowest) but something like Javiks memory shard flooding Shepards mind with the memories he had I would personally consider quite feasiable for making him at least stop for a moment and think a second time.

The Rachni Queen however is the heart of my idea. I wont deny that I am really fascianted with the Rachni and want to learn  more about them, but the idea of the Rachni Queen sacrificing itself (and basicly its entire species) to save Shepard and through that the rest of the galaxy would be a nice little redemption arc in face of the two majors wars Rachni have been involved with in the past (Prothean and off course the Rachni Wars) as well as adding an option ofr players who pick the wrong choice.

But offcourse it is only ideas.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 28 avril 2012 - 04:58 .


#46308
HellishFiend

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Yeah obviously you wouldnt want the indoctrination process to be trivialized, so either it would have to be difficult to meet the prerequisites and/or there would have to be some consequences for having to fall back on it.

#46309
DirtyPhoenix

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Seeing all these beautiful ideas make me wanna cry. What the ending could have been, and what we got instead :'(

#46310
llbountyhunter

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been out for a couple hours.. any new and exciting revelation?

#46311
Khaydarin135

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During Thessia mission, Vendetta, the protean VI was about to give shepard some information. However, he got interrupted while kai lent entered. The protean said:

"Indoctrinated presence detected". So the VI has detected Kai Leng as an indoctrinated... But not Shepard... Can we still assume the indoctrination theory is valid?

#46312
Rosewind

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pirate1802 wrote...

Seeing all these beautiful ideas make me wanna cry. What the ending could have been, and what we got instead :'(


Need a Hug?

#46313
balance5050

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Khaydarin135 wrote...

During Thessia mission, Vendetta, the protean VI was about to give shepard some information. However, he got interrupted while kai lent entered. The protean said:

"Indoctrinated presence detected". So the VI has detected Kai Leng as an indoctrinated... But not Shepard... Can we still assume the indoctrination theory is valid?


Yes, the VI pretty much only detects the most blatant indoctrination, such as tech implants. Shepard isn't even indoctrinated yet at this time.

#46314
llbountyhunter

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Khaydarin135 wrote...

During Thessia mission, Vendetta, the protean VI was about to give shepard some information. However, he got interrupted while kai lent entered. The protean said:

"Indoctrinated presence detected". So the VI has detected Kai Leng as an indoctrinated... But not Shepard... Can we still assume the indoctrination theory is valid?


this has been explained in serveral ways.

it could be that the VI simply took awhile to detect shepard, and ended coincidently with the entering of kai leng

or more simply is that the protheans did not have perfect indoctrination scanners since they themselves were undermined by indoctrinaed severants. also shepard was fighting indotrincation at this point and was not fully indotrinated like kai leng

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 28 avril 2012 - 05:23 .


#46315
IronSabbath88

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Harmony of Man and Machine sounds like Reaper speak to me.

Regardless, if BioWare goes through with Synthesis being the best ending then they pretty much contradicted themselves in the fact that Shepard says "I'll win this war, and I'll do it without sacrificing the soul of our species"

Yep, that's a pretty big contradiction.

I can't help but notice that Gamble said that line about there not being just A, B, C and then Walters saying how there won't be space magic... and then that's what we got. Seems a little TOO good to be true.

Modifié par IronSabbath88, 28 avril 2012 - 05:28 .


#46316
balance5050

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IronSabbath88 wrote...

Harmony of Man and Machine sounds like Reaper speak to me.


I think it would be kind of lame to validate the people who actually like control and synthesis, The entire series teaches that these things are morally wrong.

#46317
llbountyhunter

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IronSabbath88 wrote...

Harmony of Man and Machine sounds like Reaper speak to me.

Regardless, if BioWare goes through with Synthesis being the best ending then they pretty much contradicted themselves in the fact that Shepard says "I'll win this war, and I'll do it without sacrificing the soul of our species"

Yep, that's a pretty big contradiction.

I can't help but notice that Gamble said that line about there not being just A, B, C and then Walters saying how there won't be space magic... and then that's what we got. Seems a little TOO good to be true.


yeah, they also said that we wouldnt get a "reaper off button" I personaly think that they were purposefully  trying to ****** us off...... only that they underestimated the hostility of the reaction.

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 28 avril 2012 - 05:32 .


#46318
draken-heart

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i have an idea, how about PURPLE: shut down the reapers, Geth, EDI, and Re....wait that would kill the people on the Citadel, even Kelly. Nevermind

#46319
Rifneno

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NoSpin wrote...

"Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer) 3/7/12 Issue 108 of 360Gamer (Hardcopy only, not available online)

When asked about the science of the game being plausible

"From very early on we wanted the science of the universe to be plausible. Obviously it's set in the future so you have to make some leaps of faith but we didn't want it to be just magic in space." "

Combining synthetic and organic life into a new form of life across the universe using a pulse from a giant gun......so totally not space magic.


Thing is, it's not even just space magic. Even the series I've seen or read with the most insanely powerful forms of magic haven't done something as over the top with magic as synthesis. Rewriting the most basic works of life itself, now and forevermore, for the entire frickin' galaxy. That's not even magic, that's divine. Seriously, it only makes sense if problem child is actually God himself. And even if he was God, why is it only across the Milky Way? Each galaxy gets its own special (and I mean that in more ways than one) deity?

MaximizedAction wrote...

Btw, (among many things) still lacking an explaination: How did it take the Reapers only 6 months to reach a relay all the way from dark space? If they are 'so fast' then what was the point of Arrival and the death of all those Batarians if it didn't really help anyone to prepare?


Isn't killing batarians kind of its own reward?

Golferguy758 wrote...

As an aside, more in relation to how many people say they won't support DA3 because of ME3.

Alan Schumacher makes me want to play DA3 just to support that team. He's been very nice in posting his fan opinions and makes me think that the DA3 team will learn from the ME3 team to make a good game and ending.

So, props to Alan. You are one of the few who keeps me vested in Bioware and getting DA3


The best argument not to support DA3 is DA2. It's a pretty flawless argument too. Especially if they go that terribad route that a lot of fans (apparently also fans of narcotics) suggested, that the PC of 3 be a seeker.

Uncle Jo wrote...

Yeah true. And don't forget that the LOTR didn't end well for Froddo. He pretty much suffered from kind of PTSD (Rifneno I hope you'll read this) "The Shire was saved, but not for me" were his words I think...
It's absurd, from a narrative point, to reveal in the last minutes of the end of a trilogy, that your archenemy is just a minion of someone you've never heard of before...


I don't know... it could work in a way. They've said the end of Mass Effect's trilogy is the end of Shepard's story but likely not the last we'll see of the ME universe. Given that we're likely to see more ME games, I could deal with revelation of the Reapers having masters out there that still have to be dealt with in future games. IF, and only IF they are not an immediate threat and we can't currently attack them. Most likely this would be due to distance, them residing in another galaxy and such. In other words the war is truly over and we didn't just move onto stage 2 immediately. The characters we know and love are safe and they've earned their peace. Battle with the Reapers' masters could take place hundreds if not thousands of years later.

On the other hand, it wouldn't be hard to come up with another enemy. Less than 1% of the Milky Way is known. They can come up with any number of possible threats. To be truthful, I think they wasted a real opportunity by having the Reapers destroy the batarians early on. They would've worked well for the next game. Imagine if the batarians invented something new and immensely powerful that they could use for war. Pretty much everybody hates those bastards. They'd be good villains. At least the hegemony themselves.

paxxton wrote...

This might be true. Why would BioWare programmers include readable type info in a compiled executable? This approach just increases file size and memory requirements.


Because nanites. DUH.

IronSabbath88 wrote...

Harmony of Man and Machine sounds like Reaper speak to me.


"The relationship is symbiotic, organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel, the strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither! I am a vision of the future Shepard, the evolution of all organic life!" - Einstein. ... No wait that's not right. Churchill? Oh, right, it was Saren. Well he's trustworthy too I guess.

#46320
UrgedDuke

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balance5050 wrote...

Khaydarin135 wrote...

During Thessia mission, Vendetta, the protean VI was about to give shepard some information. However, he got interrupted while kai lent entered. The protean said:

"Indoctrinated presence detected". So the VI has detected Kai Leng as an indoctrinated... But not Shepard... Can we still assume the indoctrination theory is valid?


Yes, the VI pretty much only detects the most blatant indoctrination, such as tech implants. Shepard isn't even indoctrinated yet at this time.


not entirely true, shep sees the boy and has the dreams before then, so we can assume he was indoctrinated to some extent

#46321
Ch1m3Ra

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UrgedDuke wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Khaydarin135 wrote...

During Thessia mission, Vendetta, the protean VI was about to give shepard some information. However, he got interrupted while kai lent entered. The protean said:

"Indoctrinated presence detected". So the VI has detected Kai Leng as an indoctrinated... But not Shepard... Can we still assume the indoctrination theory is valid?


Yes, the VI pretty much only detects the most blatant indoctrination, such as tech implants. Shepard isn't even indoctrinated yet at this time.


not entirely true, shep sees the boy and has the dreams before then, so we can assume he was indoctrinated to some extent


Like many have said before, the process of indoctrination and actually being indoctrinated is two different things.

#46322
Tr0n01d

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Khaydarin135 wrote...

During Thessia mission, Vendetta, the protean VI was about to give shepard some information. However, he got interrupted while kai lent entered. The protean said:

"Indoctrinated presence detected". So the VI has detected Kai Leng as an indoctrinated... But not Shepard... Can we still assume the indoctrination theory is valid?



Oh, this again ? 


Posted Image

#46323
Raistlin Majare 1992

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Ch1m3Ra wrote...

UrgedDuke wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Khaydarin135 wrote...

During Thessia mission, Vendetta, the protean VI was about to give shepard some information. However, he got interrupted while kai lent entered. The protean said:

"Indoctrinated presence detected". So the VI has detected Kai Leng as an indoctrinated... But not Shepard... Can we still assume the indoctrination theory is valid?


Yes, the VI pretty much only detects the most blatant indoctrination, such as tech implants. Shepard isn't even indoctrinated yet at this time.


not entirely true, shep sees the boy and has the dreams before then, so we can assume he was indoctrinated to some extent


Like many have said before, the process of indoctrination and actually being indoctrinated is two different things.


Exactly and to just close the lid on this one once again I point to Javik and the very same VI who both tell you how the Prothean Empire among other things was brought down by Indoctrinated sleeper agents among them an entire faction who wanted to control the Reapers, but turned out to be Indoctrinated (sounds familiar?) If they had flawless Indoctrination detection hwo would Indoctrianted sleeper agents have been possible?

#46324
balance5050

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Ch1m3Ra wrote...

UrgedDuke wrote...

not entirely true, shep sees the boy and has the dreams before then, so we can assume he was indoctrinated to some extent


Like many have said before, the process of indoctrination and actually being indoctrinated is two different things.


Yeah DUKE!

#46325
DirtyPhoenix

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Rosewind wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Seeing all these beautiful ideas make me wanna cry. What the ending could have been, and what we got instead :'(


Need a Hug?


Nah I'm alright *snob*

IronSabbath88 wrote...
Seems a little TOO good to be true.


Too bad to be true?

Ch1m3Ra wrote...

Like many have said before, the process of indoctrination and actually being indoctrinated is two different things.


Like dying is not the same as being dead.. is that a good analogy?[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]

Modifié par pirate1802, 28 avril 2012 - 06:02 .