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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#4676
FrostByte-GER

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Pedpickle wrote...

http://media.tumblr....INqN1qlng5d.png

I follow this person on tumblr, and they posted this after choosing the destroy ending with highest rating. I'm not sure where it is in the info, but it's there. (I mean, I know the ending has shepard breathing, but at least this is officially recognized as shepard actually being alive)

and "lived to fight again" is a little.... suspicious ;)


Yeah I saw it too on the save editor...another indication for a DLC or something...

God, this is taking forever-.- I hate it to wait. please BioWare, give us an answer. The one million dollar answer.

#4677
LenabotSE

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"Undoing" Anderson's death wouldn't necessarily make it bad. Throughout the game, the running theme is Shepard's guilt over not being able to save everyone - which manifests through those indoctrination dreams. The whispers of the lost. That's the angle the Reapers are working with Shepard. "You can't save everyone. Your resistance is futile. The only way to save everyone is to attempt to control us (control) or to make yourself into us (synthesis). Destroy us? Well, if you do that, we're wiping out the geth and EDI along with us. More death on your hands."

When you wake up near the beam, if your assets are low, you also see your dead teammates -- highly demoralizing sight just before you go up.

TIM represents what the Reapers want - a patsy that thinks they can be controlled. Anderson represents what they don't want - someone who will blow them all up. So, naturally, in an engineered hallucination, TIM is depicted as being "right all along" while Anderson must die like all the other important figures in Shepard's life. Anderson's death represents the loss of hope. A final attempt to demoralize and control Shepard that is not undone unless Shepard opts to follow Anderson's original plan, even if the deal sounds bad.

#4678
humes spork

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lil_89 wrote...

I disagree, this is highly illogical. Why should the Normandy crew be a priority?


I didn't say the Normandy's crew, I said the Hammer survivors. And yes, it is illogical but it's also the most logical explanation that has the squad on the Normandy during the ending is it not?

I'm not making the point it's a good explanation -- I'm making the point it IS an explanation.

The reapers would have found them anyway, you can't just hide in the jungle on some planet, and hope the reapers wont find you. The protheans already tried that with their pods and just, no.


You mean like Ilos, which by your logic the Reapers would have found anyway, killed the hibernating Protheans, destroyed the Conduit and Vigil?

#4679
DXLelouch15

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hell i didnt even have a pistol equipped i just had a shotgun -_-

#4680
Elendstourist

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Elanor1 wrote...

iamheartbroken wrote...

I'm beginning to think it wasn't a hallucination. Maybe... just maybe...

After Shepard gets hit by the beam, knocked out and near death, what happens is more of a mental battle against Indoctrination - Controlling the Reapers, and Synthesis both leading to Shepard mentally surrendering her will and dying. Choosing to destroy the Reapers, is Shepard refusing to surrender no matter what, and the confused images that follow are just jumbled together thoughts and fears and hopes, then Shepard wakes up with a sharp gasp of pain.

Okay, I'm the one dreaming, but hey... it's a nice thought.


It would be great.



Absolutely.

I already accepted this as the real ending. The game feels much better since then :D

#4681
Elanor

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Darth Taurus wrote...

PrivateFrost wrote...

- Kid- Tell me another story about the Shepard
- Stargazer- Did you download the DLC?
- Kid - No....
- Stargazer - Then go to bed.

http://www.reddit.co...ut_the_shepard/


LOL LOL


Hahah.

#4682
BlackDragonBane

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humes spork wrote...

lil_89 wrote...

I disagree, this is highly illogical. Why should the Normandy crew be a priority?


I didn't say the Normandy's crew, I said the Hammer survivors. And yes, it is illogical but it's also the most logical explanation that has the squad on the Normandy during the ending is it not?

I'm not making the point it's a good explanation -- I'm making the point it IS an explanation.

The reapers would have found them anyway, you can't just hide in the jungle on some planet, and hope the reapers wont find you. The protheans already tried that with their pods and just, no.


You mean like Ilos, which by your logic the Reapers would have found anyway, killed the hibernating Protheans, destroyed the Conduit and Vigil?


The point about the Protheans is valid. It operated on its own network and was on a need to know basis. Basically, it was an isolated colony of scientists that no one off planet knew about. The Vigil even explains that, it's why the Reapers didn't find the planet nor knew about the Conduit or modification to the Keepers until Saren got ahold of the beacons.

#4683
Thanatia

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Joyceee wrote...

Thanatia wrote...

I just had a frightening thought, which scream BAD END line no others concerning the child and stargazer.... and the normandy crash too

if all this endings are a "you fail" and the reapers win in the end, stargazer could be the représentation of the first reaper in their own "concensus" like in the geth server, and the child is the new reaper, eager to return from the void in his/its birth galaxy


Oh wow. This is an enlightening point! Never thought of that.


all those stars may have a planet with some life forms on them... until we come !! <insert mad laugh>

or not ? :P

#4684
njfluffy19

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LenabotSE wrote...


When you wake up near the beam, if your assets are low, you also see your dead teammates -- highly demoralizing sight just before you go up.


Is there any proof of this? I wanted to see, but I don't have the heart to do a half-assed playthrough to witness it. :P

#4685
Joyceee

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Elendstourist wrote...

Elanor1 wrote...

iamheartbroken wrote...

I'm beginning to think it wasn't a hallucination. Maybe... just maybe...

After Shepard gets hit by the beam, knocked out and near death, what happens is more of a mental battle against Indoctrination - Controlling the Reapers, and Synthesis both leading to Shepard mentally surrendering her will and dying. Choosing to destroy the Reapers, is Shepard refusing to surrender no matter what, and the confused images that follow are just jumbled together thoughts and fears and hopes, then Shepard wakes up with a sharp gasp of pain.

Okay, I'm the one dreaming, but hey... it's a nice thought.


It would be great.


Absolutely.

I already accepted this as the real ending. The game feels much better since then :D


Agreed! This whole thread has made it so much more bearable to play the game again. Thanks everyone! Keep it coming. :)

#4686
k8ee

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rogueagent6 wrote...

k8ee wrote...

Did you PM the OP to have it added to page one? If it isn't already there? ;)


I did indeed.


Excellent. I think that codex is important

#4687
Maria Caliban

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AM94 wrote...

But we have seen numerous holograms, Avina is one, EDI, even Sovereign as a hologram and none of them looked even remotely like that, and it is never mentioned in game that they brain-search people to create a more appropriate look.


When Shepard plugs into the geth network, the quarians are in their suits. She asks about it and Legion replies that Shepard's mind is partially creating what she sees.

And yes, several of the holograms we've seen are wavery and glowy. Virgil on Illos, the Prothean AI trapped in the asari temple, and Avina and the Citadel.

#4688
EXMugamy

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Guys, how can you be thinking that it's all over? It was not an illusion, that place, could have appeared any Reaper, but it appeared just the Harbinger, who controlled the General collector. Mass Effect is not just going to have DLC with the end of history, has been reviewed by Bioware on Twitter.

#4689
orionshield

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Was Multiplayer really worth it??? :?

I mean ME 3 was supposed to be released around early Oct/November last year but was pushed

back because of EA/Bioware needed to reach First Person Shooters, by making multiplayer,

(hence Battlefield 3 fans could get early access) that's my wild guess, and because of the delay, a

few weeks later in later 2011, a leaked script of ME 3 was accidentally released, meaning ME 3

was re written to counter the leak in the story and still be able to surprise the fans. (Imagine if

Bioware had just released the game prior to that event, ME 3 would have been a perfect story. than

provide Multiplayer to those FPS months later like in march and make them pay for it as DLC)  the

bottom line is the ending of Mass Effect 3 was bad ending SAID by 1000s of LEGION

hardcore fans like me! .....THATS OUR CONCENSUS!...........My advice,,, Greed shouldn't mix

with passionate game making,,,,,just look at Star Wars Episode 1, 2, 3,,,,George Lucas wanted to

make big money and out do James Cameron who out did everyone with Titanic! I researched this

and its true according to many!....To Bioware...I want to express deeply that the game played well

of course BUT the last 15 minutes of the story was very terrible & disappointing ,,,,,,story telling,,,

(notice i didn't say say sad?),it was exactly like Dues ex ending which was weird,moreover, no

planet exploration like ME 1,,,,what ever hard work we did in the last 5 years mounted to 3

decisions at the end of ME 3 that didn't change the ending outcome either way! That was not fair

to Hardcore Fans! Also the story I expected in ME 3 was not what i had hope to see, now I

thought Mac Walters did a fine job in the Story Telling and Casey Hudson was protecting Mass

Effect game from being ruined so I thank them a lot, Im Thankful that Bioware made MASS

EFFECT but im just confused about important things,,Like I really think you should hire fans who

know the story well and who could have input to make the game and story have more continuity :

For example: if you hired a hardcore fan=

-One would say that they would expect the Finale of Mass Effect 3 would progress to these end results!

1. would if you had written the story where shepard and his crew had to discover the origin of the

reapers was from another galaxy, that we travel there in the end just to find their home and run with

for at least one or two missions. to take them out! That would be a surprise and blow fans minds if

so! thats a surprise right? how did we take back earth if shepard says to the prothean that to have

the people around and their relation is worth living or fighting for! but we not only took back earth

we, lost everything that made earth great to the galaxy, its economy, love in the vids that other

aliens seek, so shepard dies any ways and the prothean lives who has no friends left and hes the

only prothean alive?...and since the mass relays are gone what happened to everybody else, what

was the point for war assets, i mean i didn't even play multiplayer, since i was so into the story for

ME 3 and was eager to discover the ending to this saga! but my heart for the story was crushed! :(

2. Why couldn't we explore just a few planets in order to find some ancient alien tech that was

crucial to building the crucible,. like land on the actual planet and explore with a vehicle and find

the parts or pieces that are hidden from the reapers. the vistas and the feeling of actual planet

exploration would feel right? i would like to see big vistas and enter another plant's forest or rift

valley!!!
3. why couldn't we say that dark energy like from the star of haestrom had a significant role in

taking down the reapers.

4. if the reapers are in dark space, why could we have a story that included and had a function in

the reasoning why the reapers had to reside there and just made exploration and outer galaxy

travel kinda interesting,

5. it would make since to me that reapers harvest organics because they needed also as energy

to fuel their machine bodies and to build more reapers.

6. if reapers were to take advance races and be built to look like that race why did every reaper

look the same?  what was the point of the human reaper in ME 2, why didn't we see collectors,

since they were reported on Paloven?

7. if the reapers were around since the beginning what were their intentions in creating organics in

the first place, and yes they said they were afraid that the created would turn on their creators but

the creators had no clue how pleasant being an organic was! and who was the star child since the

last 15 minutes of that story ending was so irrelevant to 99.9% of the Mass Effect story prior!

8. why didn't we find out how many times exactly the reapers harvested us or how many cycles

there was,,,,what were the aliens before us like with details and cultures presented, and why

couldn't Javik had known more about the ilos planet and tell us ME 1 stuff, what was the sphere all

about, the shiny one where the protheans had left behind?

9. ME 3 also seemed short, it normally takes me 80 hours to play ME 1 but ME 3 took like 45

hours, which means less of everything for some reason,,,,

10. Lastly, Bioware regardless of how much effort you made to complete ME  trilogy,,,,over the last

3 years i have lost faith in expecting the right story telling and rudimentary ME 1 play style , i

mean the FPS experience is great, the music is great, the graphics was great, but something was

missing, where it feels like you guys didn't hit the nail right on the head for Hardcore MASS EFFECT fans!:mellow:

                   SO now when i play ME 1 again, I feel like working hard is point less because at the end, the

difference in the decisions in a,b,c is i get 3 different colors on how the mass relays are self

destroyed, one video scene of joker with EDI versus the other 2 that look the same, and one video

shot of the Citidel not being destroyed but closed permanently, and all the alien races stuck in the

sol system who wil be cramped I would think! and the Quarians won their home world for nothing

because their stuck in the sol system and Joker with your crew are stuck on some unknown

planet, and why was Joker fleeing the sol system, I thought he had Shepard's back?

THERE ARE SO MANY LOOSE ENDS! I DON'T FEEL CLOSURE AT ALL SORRY :(

                    P.S. i HAVE READ EVERY MASS EFFECT NOVEL, COMIC, OWN OVER 20 MASS EFFECT

LITHOGRAPHS, I'VE SPENT 100s OF DOLLARS ON MASS EFFECT SWAG AND I LOVE THE

STORY BUT THE FINALE HAS REALLY SOLIDIFIED THE ASSUMPTION BIOWARE STORY

TELLING IS WHAT IT USED TO NOT TO BE! I BEAT ME 3 6 HOURS AGO AND IM FEELING

HEARTBROKEN ABOUT THE STORY'S ENDING! OVERALL I REALLY DON'T

WANT TO GET HOOKED ON Another  BIOWARE game EVER AGAIN! :(

I petition that Bioware divorces EA  !

#4690
noobcannon

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Syokhan wrote...

Guys, I'd love for this theory to be true (believe me, I really would - I was deeply dissatisfied with the endings), but if it were, wouldn't it cheapen Anderson's death scene? It was so wonderfully done, with the music, dialogue, expressions and all, that I really don't want it to be retconned. How can you go back to Shep in the rubble after the charge without losing that beautiful scene?


what death scene? he's not dead. that was part of the hallucination.

#4691
madtotheskills

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really nice thread, the best i ve seen about hallucination / indoctrination posibility, and i hope its true

#4692
PrivateFrost

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http://arkis.deviant...ILERS-289902125

I consider this my canon ending.

#4693
holyshock18

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The scene with Anderson dying while talking to Shepard is perfect. But it would still make sence in a Indoctrination kinda way. Since that kinda destroys the last part of Shepards hope to sucseed. He lost his Absolutly best friend. The one you almost could call a father figure. It was the last thing the reapers try to push shepard the last inch over the edge to become fully indoctrinated.

#4694
BlackDragonBane

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njfluffy19 wrote...

LenabotSE wrote...


When you wake up near the beam, if your assets are low, you also see your dead teammates -- highly demoralizing sight just before you go up.


Is there any proof of this? I wanted to see, but I don't have the heart to do a half-assed playthrough to witness it. :P


I saw someone's playthrough of that part and noticed Ashley was dead on the ground where Shepard falls on their knees. I dunno what that person's asset level is but in my playthrough, it was up in the 5000s and I saw no squadmates, so maybe it's true?

#4695
humes spork

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BlackDragonBane wrote...

The point about the Protheans is valid. It operated on its own network and was on a need to know basis. Basically, it was an isolated colony of scientists that no one off planet knew about. The Vigil even explains that, it's why the Reapers didn't find the planet nor knew about the Conduit or modification to the Keepers until Saren got ahold of the beacons.


If the Normandy had run and gone dark to find a planet to colonize, they would have been necessarily found by what means, then?

#4696
GBGriffin

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holyshock18 wrote...

The scene with Anderson dying while talking to Shepard is perfect. But it would still make sence in a Indoctrination kinda way. Since that kinda destroys the last part of Shepards hope to sucseed. He lost his Absolutly best friend. The one you almost could call a father figure. It was the last thing the reapers try to push shepard the last inch over the edge to become fully indoctrinated.


Agreed. I think it would make Shep even more vulnerable, and just less likely to question the decision.

Why does this thread make more sense than anything I predict BioWare will say? ;_:

#4697
PrivateFrost

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orionshield wrote...

Was Multiplayer really worth it??? :?

I mean ME 3 was supposed to be released around early Oct/November last year but was pushed

back because of EA/Bioware needed to reach First Person Shooters, by making multiplayer,

(hence Battlefield 3 fans could get early access) that's my wild guess, and because of the delay, a

few weeks later in later 2011, a leaked script of ME 3 was accidentally released, meaning ME 3

was re written to counter the leak in the story and still be able to surprise the fans. (Imagine if

Bioware had just released the game prior to that event, ME 3 would have been a perfect story. than

provide Multiplayer to those FPS months later like in march and make them pay for it as DLC)  the

bottom line is the ending of Mass Effect 3 was bad ending SAID by 1000s of LEGION

hardcore fans like me! .....THATS OUR CONCENSUS!...........My advice,,, Greed shouldn't mix

with passionate game making,,,,,just look at Star Wars Episode 1, 2, 3,,,,George Lucas wanted to

make big money and out do James Cameron who out did everyone with Titanic! I researched this

and its true according to many!....To Bioware...I want to express deeply that the game played well

of course BUT the last 15 minutes of the story was very terrible & disappointing ,,,,,,story telling,,,

(notice i didn't say say sad?),it was exactly like Dues ex ending which was weird,moreover, no

planet exploration like ME 1,,,,what ever hard work we did in the last 5 years mounted to 3

decisions at the end of ME 3 that didn't change the ending outcome either way! That was not fair

to Hardcore Fans! Also the story I expected in ME 3 was not what i had hope to see, now I

thought Mac Walters did a fine job in the Story Telling and Casey Hudson was protecting Mass

Effect game from being ruined so I thank them a lot, Im Thankful that Bioware made MASS

EFFECT but im just confused about important things,,Like I really think you should hire fans who

know the story well and who could have input to make the game and story have more continuity :

For example: if you hired a hardcore fan=

-One would say that they would expect the Finale of Mass Effect 3 would progress to these end results!

1. would if you had written the story where shepard and his crew had to discover the origin of the

reapers was from another galaxy, that we travel there in the end just to find their home and run with

for at least one or two missions. to take them out! That would be a surprise and blow fans minds if

so! thats a surprise right? how did we take back earth if shepard says to the prothean that to have

the people around and their relation is worth living or fighting for! but we not only took back earth

we, lost everything that made earth great to the galaxy, its economy, love in the vids that other

aliens seek, so shepard dies any ways and the prothean lives who has no friends left and hes the

only prothean alive?...and since the mass relays are gone what happened to everybody else, what

was the point for war assets, i mean i didn't even play multiplayer, since i was so into the story for

ME 3 and was eager to discover the ending to this saga! but my heart for the story was crushed! :(

2. Why couldn't we explore just a few planets in order to find some ancient alien tech that was

crucial to building the crucible,. like land on the actual planet and explore with a vehicle and find

the parts or pieces that are hidden from the reapers. the vistas and the feeling of actual planet

exploration would feel right? i would like to see big vistas and enter another plant's forest or rift

valley!!!
3. why couldn't we say that dark energy like from the star of haestrom had a significant role in

taking down the reapers.

4. if the reapers are in dark space, why could we have a story that included and had a function in

the reasoning why the reapers had to reside there and just made exploration and outer galaxy

travel kinda interesting,

5. it would make since to me that reapers harvest organics because they needed also as energy

to fuel their machine bodies and to build more reapers.

6. if reapers were to take advance races and be built to look like that race why did every reaper

look the same?  what was the point of the human reaper in ME 2, why didn't we see collectors,

since they were reported on Paloven?

7. if the reapers were around since the beginning what were their intentions in creating organics in

the first place, and yes they said they were afraid that the created would turn on their creators but

the creators had no clue how pleasant being an organic was! and who was the star child since the

last 15 minutes of that story ending was so irrelevant to 99.9% of the Mass Effect story prior!

8. why didn't we find out how many times exactly the reapers harvested us or how many cycles

there was,,,,what were the aliens before us like with details and cultures presented, and why

couldn't Javik had known more about the ilos planet and tell us ME 1 stuff, what was the sphere all

about, the shiny one where the protheans had left behind?

9. ME 3 also seemed short, it normally takes me 80 hours to play ME 1 but ME 3 took like 45

hours, which means less of everything for some reason,,,,

10. Lastly, Bioware regardless of how much effort you made to complete ME  trilogy,,,,over the last

3 years i have lost faith in expecting the right story telling and rudimentary ME 1 play style , i

mean the FPS experience is great, the music is great, the graphics was great, but something was

missing, where it feels like you guys didn't hit the nail right on the head for Hardcore MASS EFFECT fans!:mellow:

                   SO now when i play ME 1 again, I feel like working hard is point less because at the end, the

difference in the decisions in a,b,c is i get 3 different colors on how the mass relays are self

destroyed, one video scene of joker with EDI versus the other 2 that look the same, and one video

shot of the Citidel not being destroyed but closed permanently, and all the alien races stuck in the

sol system who wil be cramped I would think! and the Quarians won their home world for nothing

because their stuck in the sol system and Joker with your crew are stuck on some unknown

planet, and why was Joker fleeing the sol system, I thought he had Shepard's back?

THERE ARE SO MANY LOOSE ENDS! I DON'T FEEL CLOSURE AT ALL SORRY :(

                    P.S. i HAVE READ EVERY MASS EFFECT NOVEL, COMIC, OWN OVER 20 MASS EFFECT

LITHOGRAPHS, I'VE SPENT 100s OF DOLLARS ON MASS EFFECT SWAG AND I LOVE THE

STORY BUT THE FINALE HAS REALLY SOLIDIFIED THE ASSUMPTION BIOWARE STORY

TELLING IS WHAT IT USED TO NOT TO BE! I BEAT ME 3 6 HOURS AGO AND IM FEELING

HEARTBROKEN ABOUT THE STORY'S ENDING! OVERALL I REALLY DON'T

WANT TO GET HOOKED ON Another  BIOWARE game EVER AGAIN! :(

I petition that Bioware divorces EA  !


Like, it's just my opinion, but I really liked the multiplayer. The endings totally destroyed the replay value of the singleplayer for me.  And I find it really fun getting packs, new characters, trying to make a perfect build.

Modifié par PrivateFrost, 12 mars 2012 - 06:16 .


#4698
EXMugamy

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Damn. I wrote wrong. It was all an illusion. DLC will have the final certainty.

#4699
balance5050

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Madkipz wrote...

"Choosing Destroy will kill EDI and the Geth."

Shepard is also partly synthetic as revealed in the Cerberus base. Later it is revealed that Shepard is the only synthetic mix worthy of using to form the basis for galactic DNA

Yet if you Destroy the reapers Shepard will wake up back in London ruins alive, and we have no proof of Geth or EDI dying other than the god child saying it will happen..

It's all bull**** and lies with that reaper. You can't trust a single damn word it says because it wants to use you to serve its own goals.


This guy gets it... lets just assume that catalyst isn't completly full of **** and lets take the other options into account real quick.

If you choose to control, the reapers just leave forever? they go back out into darkspaceand just die? They are living as well, even if they are mostly synthetic, they have shown that this is done for self preservation, I'm sure that atleast a few would rebel and go feed again, the control ending is full of holes.

If you choose synthesis, what would stop living synthesized people from eventually creating fully synthetic AI's again? Eventually (according to catalyst logic) the half synthesized and fully synthetic would start yet another war, starting the cycle over again.

The catalyst logic is flawed, because IT'S NOT A GOD, it's a reaper, and it's trying to fool you.

Modifié par balance5050, 12 mars 2012 - 06:18 .


#4700
Pedpickle

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njfluffy19 wrote...

LenabotSE wrote...


When you wake up near the beam, if your assets are low, you also see your dead teammates -- highly demoralizing sight just before you go up.


Is there any proof of this? I wanted to see, but I don't have the heart to do a half-assed playthrough to witness it. :P


I only have this one picture someone took from a yt vid.

http://i44.tinypic.com/6emb9i.jpg