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[Rosewind]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

What I don't understand about Arrival, where was the Normandy during that time you think after 2 days of radio silence they think something is wrong?

Probably trying to get in contact with Shepard, but without knowing wher he was it might be a little hard to find him.

But they knew ruffly where they where you dont hear about them leaving the system.

[NoSpin]

Arian Dynas wrote...



I see them as underestimating our anger, and overestimating the majority of fans both. Someone said it themselves a page or two back, "we're the only group doing what Bioware wants, speculating." They expected us to be happy with the ending as it stands, or at least satisfied, haveing us going "meh, it's not great, it's kind of a let down, and definately a Deus Ex ripoff, but meh, I got mostly what I wanted out of it. Now I'll go play some Multiplayer until I get bore..oooooh... new free multiplayer expansion pack for me? ****in, now I level up my Batarian soldier, and my Kro...oohhh! New Single Player DLC? COOL! I'm gonna start a new game for that, try another run thro...oooh! I finished my single player game in time for YET MORE MULTIPLAYER DLC!" And it would go like that, the people most interested in the story getting involved with stuff like ANN, seeing more of the war unfold via twitter, over a month or two, when suddenly, BIG NEWS! YOU GUYS WERE INDOCTRINATED THE WHOLE TIME! Unfortunately,  people got pissed, and one of two things happened, they are either making the EC to make indoctrination more obvious, so they can wrap up the game in an expansion pack/final Seige of Earth DLC, or they moved that DLC forward in the schedule.

So in short, that is what I think the plan WAS, now they're either sticking to the plan, playing Reapers to our Shepard, and pretending to be defending a facce value ending, "indoctrinating" more of us and waiting for more people to finish the game, maybe even answer some questions at PAX, announcing that the war continues on all fronts, but the backlash took them off guard. so either the plan has been scrapped and they are trying to adjust (less likely) or they chose to stick to the plan, despite the odds, giving vauge, cryptic hints about more planned, and generally trying to keep people's interest, because one thing we know, they wanted the ending memorable, and Mass Effect 3 would not be going out with a whimper if they stuck by this.

Quoted for complete truth. Bioware expected us to be somewhat satisfied by their ending, with indoctrination to be revealed as a shock/intro to ME4/Expansion Pack later. They didn't forsee the anger. They didn't forsee the demand for answers immediately. People see Bioware being caught off guard as evidence against IT, I disagree. It may show that Casey and Mac can't make a believable "false" ending, but it doesn't dampen IT hopes.

Of course we all do need to prepare for the situation where Bioware scrapped Indoctrination COMPLETELY. They may have left the hints we found and it was originally the plan, but due to budget or time issues they scrapped their grand plan in favor of ending everything. Mac and Casey pulled the ending out left field and their poor understanding of what ME is lead us here. I don't find this situation likely, but it is possible.

[MegumiAzusa]

I wouldn't say poor understanding. The possibility that it could be indoctrination is quite intriguing by itself. I am fine with both possibilities.

[MaximizedAction]

@NoSpin:
Casey and Mac are two of the creators of the ME franchise. Yes, that doesn't mean, they can't screw up their own creation (see Lucas) but they practically 'just' created it, ME is very young, so that the two of them prob know every aspect by heart.

So while a complete screw is not impossible, neither is IT as an ultimate twist.

[Legion109]

I haven't posted anything in a couple days, I wanted to say something witty but I got nothing so how bout a quick song instead.

Jingle bells, Quarians fail
Salarians lay eggs
Asari wh*res, Krogan wars
and Turians are just lame ... Cough

- I am the Legion of 109 and I am the disturber of the disturbed -

[Rosewind]

Legion109 wrote...

I haven't posted anything in a couple days, I wanted to say something witty but I got nothing so how bout a quick song instead.

Jingle bells, Quarians fail
Salarians lay eggs
Asari wh*res, Krogan wars
and Turians are just lame ... Cough

- I am the Legion of 109 and I am the disturber of the disturbed -

Lol nice Dare you to incorporate humans and protheans and maybe Vorcha

[EpyonX3]

Legion109 wrote...

I haven't posted anything in a couple days, I wanted to say something witty but I got nothing so how bout a quick song instead.

Jingle bells, Quarians fail
Salarians lay eggs
Asari wh*res, Krogan wars
and Turians are just lame ... Cough

- I am the Legion of 109 and I am the disturber of the disturbed -

How come no one like Turians? Is it because of that Council member?

[BatmanTurian]

I posted this in Makrys's thread about their fascination with IT. Wanted to repost it here.

"OP sounds like me three minutes after the credits rolled. ' That little pipsqueek is lying his pants off. '

People who don't get I.T., don't like it, or just won't believe it have their reasons and I'm not going to excoriate them for it. I can respect their opinion and still think their out of their minds in denial.

Both camps think the other is in denial. This is the "SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE" that Bioware wanted, but obviously we will find out what the true interpretation is eventually. Unlike the argument between atheists and religion (which Anti-IT like to compare this argument to), we really can find out who is right and who is wrong. In fact, we've already been promised an explanation by a third party who we might as well compare to God or the Universe, since they are the creators of the fictional Mass Effect universe.

We can get answers (eventually) because we can question the creators directly. However, the difference is that in our universe (unless something universe-changing happens) the jury will always be out on the meaning of life and whether there is a God. It will always be about faith, unlike the IDT which is built on evidence. Not only that, but much of the evidence is actually so damning that you have to do mental gymnastics to ignore it. I won't even go into the active denial of literary elements.

At any rate, excellent post, OP. The problem is that many people don't think that deeply about things in media like you and I do. The more you explain to them, the more it seems to infuriate and confuse them. I thought gamers wanted games to be accepted as a medium of art and this interpretation of the ending (if true) would cement that or at least give it a nod. Why deny a storytelling technique possibility in a story-driven game where our choices are supposed to matter, especially at the part where it matters the most? I just don't understand the disconnect, honestly. "

Then someone named Mobius-Silent posted below me and said this in response to Makyrs's statement that " Whether you believe in it or not, you have to admit, its pretty neat. " :

"Not at all. all of the "evidence" I see is either deliberate misunderstanding, outright falehoods or denial.
I.T. consists of the same mental tricks that start religions, it's not "compelling" its not "neat" its _really_ forced fanfic. Fine and dandy for "I like to think of the ending like this" but really _really_ annoying when it's presented as "OMG BIoware are geniuses look at all the PROOF why can't you see its brilliant! you just don't get .I.T, lol you're just in denial!"

Oh hell, looks like I've just posted directly under one of them... great"

To which I replied:

"Again, both camps say the other is in denial. Neither of us have a claim to say we're completely right. We have to wait for Bioware to say. In that way, it is nothing like a religion, conspiracy, or anything like that. It is literalists taking the story for what it is and others looking at the story to see if there is something deeper. Thank you for proving my point."

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 30 avril 2012 - 03:07 .

[BatmanTurian]

Uncle Jo wrote...

Someone pointed out that the Citadel was an indoc hub and I liked the idea... Do you think that's the reason the Council (aside from the human) has never undertaken some serious measures (on galactical scale) to prevent or at leat to prepare themselves against the Reapers.invasion, despite of the the attack of Sovereign and the multiple proofs (ME1 and 2) that something big is going to occur ?
I mean they're the leaders of the most powerful/advanced civilizations in the galaxy, who dealt well with the Rachni wars and the Krogan rebellion and yet are totally divided/clueless about how to counter the Reaper invasion ? I can't see them that useless...
Udina freaking out at the worst possible moment and trying to take control of the Citadel for Cerberus (I don't think it was clearly stated if he was indoctrinated or not), could be for me another hint

I've already asked about it without getting feedback though (or didn't find it), that's why I'm posting my question again..

I agree with everything you say. The Citadel itself is an indoctrination platform that might make the races that settle there lethargic and less prone to considering any kind of threat. It gives the Reapers an edge because the population is brainwashed into sheep collected in a pen waiting to be sheared and slaughtered.

[spotlessvoid]

MaximizedAction wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

I agree with IDT lol, just saying if you do ignore it there is still something not right.

Yep!

Now I started wondering about another thing:
If Shepard is or was on the verge of Indoctrination, how come none of the Normandy crew or others seem to be?
How about them? If there is a story twist that would cause a dramatical emotion from us players, then the unexpected indoctrination of, say, your LI? Like the-next-level-of-the-Collector-Normandy-ambush in ME2 kind of surprise
That one would've been so much easier to achieve than the huge effort of indoctrinating the players themselves.

So, could it be - or even, how could it NOT be, that some of your sqad must become slowly indoc'd?

I guess that's why Arrival was done as a solo mission

[Arashi08]

Big G13 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Also, a theory. What if the way that Bioware is acting is nothing more than an alternate reality game?

claiming Synthesis as the best ending, the multiplayer events, Alliance News Network, the seperate timelines,

Acting like the bad guy?

Discuss!

Bioware certainly could be playing games. Their post release behavior has been almost as crazy as starchilds logic. Question: What do you mean separate timelines?

The ANN is running off it's own timeline, concurrent with real world time, theing is in their timeline we have yet to reach the point of the Seige of Earth. I'm willing to bet there'll be more multiplayer events between now and then, more multiplayer expansion packs, both free and paid, representing major turning points in the war, until finally, things culminate with the release of the EC, revealing Indoctrination and the final seige of Earth, with DLC released between then and now being major battles and plot points, like the retaking of Omega.

Basically, I am saying Bioware developed their entire DLC release schedule around a story plot, so they could drag out the game over the course of the year, making sure no one forgot it, but the problem is that the ending that was supposed to keep us happy and content for a few months didn't leaving their plans entirely ****ed up, and them a bit upset and insulted that we weren't happy, so they have to move up the EC, either moving up the Seige of Earth DLC, or giving us the EC to make things more obvious so we're more content to wait for the war to run it's course.

You know, reading this, the movie 'eXistenZ' suddenly popped into my mind. Maybe playing games with their fan base is the closest thing Bioware could get to an 'eXistenZ' style game with current technology. Sounds crazy to me and I thought of it, but .....

almost reminds me of the Spartan Ops co-op events Halo 4 is planning to have.  where they will release new content for the co-op every week.  what BioWare may be doing seems less structured and more meta i suppose.

[Rosewind]

Man it's quiet in here.

[marcelo_sdk]

An idea came to mind just now: the Catalyst says that he created the Reapers to "save" the organics from the destruction by the synthetics. But, if what Sovereign says is true, that by using the relays the organics races evolve in the way the Reapers want, it means that the Reapers created the problem they want to solve?

I think that knowing why the first cycle happened would enlight a lot of things.

[MegumiAzusa]

Okay the shadows in TIM scene are REALLY weird. I will draw some pictures (yay 4 MS Paint) that shows them shifting.

[MegumiAzusa]

spotlessvoid wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

I agree with IDT lol, just saying if you do ignore it there is still something not right.

Yep!

Now I started wondering about another thing:
If Shepard is or was on the verge of Indoctrination, how come none of the Normandy crew or others seem to be?
How about them? If there is a story twist that would cause a dramatical emotion from us players, then the unexpected indoctrination of, say, your LI? Like the-next-level-of-the-Collector-Normandy-ambush in ME2 kind of surprise
That one would've been so much easier to achieve than the huge effort of indoctrinating the players themselves.

So, could it be - or even, how could it NOT be, that some of your sqad must become slowly indoc'd?

I guess that's why Arrival was done as a solo mission

Actually any character you take with you on the assault of the Cerberus base say something in the room with the human proto reaper that reeks of indoctrination.

[paxxton]

marcelo_sdk wrote...

An idea came to mind just now: the Catalyst says that he created the Reapers to "save" the organics from the destruction by the synthetics. But, if what Sovereign says is true, that by using the relays the organics races evolve in the way the Reapers want, it means that the Reapers created the problem they want to solve?

I think that knowing why the first cycle happened would enlight a lot of things.

Very interesting finding. Fuels IT.

[marcelo_sdk]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Okay the shadows in TIM scene are REALLY weird. I will draw some pictures (yay 4 MS Paint) that shows them shifting.

Also strange is the Reapers growls we can hear when the shadows appear. I think it's clear in that part that TIM was controling us, what means the Reapers were controlling us.

[MarkasLin]

spotlessvoid wrote...

WinterCrow wrote...

Just throwing some ideas in here...

What if the Reaper's motivation is actually what the Star Bieber tells you? They don't want synthetics to destroy all life in the galaxy... BUT it's not organic life they're concerned about, it's reaper life.

They have a lot of ways to mess with organics. They can indoctrinate organics, use the Citadel as an utopic place to forget about war, divide them and isolate every world and their communications, etc. But what about synthetics? The geth initially joined the reapers voluntarily, and not all of them did. In ME 3 they (again) voluntarily accept to get Reaper upgrades to fight the quarians.

What if it's synthetics that they're scared of, but no concerning organic life, but themselves? They don't harvest advanced civilizations so they don't oppose them, but to prevent their synthetic creations to do so.

But somehow, this time it was an organic being who really got to challenge them, the crucible "changed" things, created new possibilities. They are in danger now. Would this make sense?

It certainly could be part of their motivation

It is my own firm belief that the cycle is the reaper version of procreation.
They scan the universe for viable species, while simultaneously destroying everything that might be or become a threat to the Reapers. Protheans were not compatible enough with reaper tech to make a new reaper(i rememper reading somewhere), but were still destroyed. The Derelict Reapers "Heart" or w/e had a structure around it that looked alot like a thorian (you really have to look to see it) and the Human reaper larvae was probably going to form the core/heart of a new reaper (until shep killed).
So to my mind the cycle is like reaper menstruation

[llbountyhunter]

wow, I can actually follow the thread now that it slowed down... lol.

ok I this may be nothing but I found it interesting.

you know how Garrus tells Shepard to rest? to which shepard responds "ill sleep when im dead"

and in the end scene he says "I feel like death" maybe its a clue to tell us that shepard is not awake..

[Rifneno]

DJBare wrote...

Sovereign used their worship the same way cult leaders do, even Legion tells you the heretics were mislead and that Sovereign saw their worship as an insult.

Very minor nitpick: Saren was the one who said Sovereign was insulted by the heretic geth's "pitiful" devotion. Which is odd in retrospect since Legion said that Nazara (Sovereign) is the one who contacted the geth seeking allies. He was looking for their help and then felt insulted when he got it? ... Is it just me, or does anyone else get the impression that Sovereign was kind of a dick even for a Reaper? The rest of them go about their horrible crimes with apparently apathy. Sovereign was just hateful. To everyone. About everything. I wonder if that's why he got stuck with guard duty. "I'm not listening to Nazara's crap for another 50,000 years. Let him play vanguard, I'm going for a nap."

EpyonX3 wrote...

How come no one like Turians? Is it because of that Council member?

Can't speak for anybody else, but I'm a huge fan of turians. Only race I was more excited to play in Galaxy at War is geth (Legion > All).

[paxxton]

Rifneno wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

How come no one like Turians? Is it because of that Council member?

Can't speak for anybody else, but I'm a huge fan of turians. Only race I was more excited to play in Galaxy at War is geth (Legion > All).

I'm a fan of Turians too. They're honest. Everybody in their society knows his place and respects others.

Modifié par paxxton, 30 avril 2012 - 04:07 .

[llbountyhunter]

MarkasLin wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

WinterCrow wrote...

Just throwing some ideas in here...

What if the Reaper's motivation is actually what the Star Bieber tells you? They don't want synthetics to destroy all life in the galaxy... BUT it's not organic life they're concerned about, it's reaper life.

They have a lot of ways to mess with organics. They can indoctrinate organics, use the Citadel as an utopic place to forget about war, divide them and isolate every world and their communications, etc. But what about synthetics? The geth initially joined the reapers voluntarily, and not all of them did. In ME 3 they (again) voluntarily accept to get Reaper upgrades to fight the quarians.

What if it's synthetics that they're scared of, but no concerning organic life, but themselves? They don't harvest advanced civilizations so they don't oppose them, but to prevent their synthetic creations to do so.

But somehow, this time it was an organic being who really got to challenge them, the crucible "changed" things, created new possibilities. They are in danger now. Would this make sense?

It certainly could be part of their motivation

It is my own firm belief that the cycle is the reaper version of procreation.
They scan the universe for viable species, while simultaneously destroying everything that might be or become a threat to the Reapers. Protheans were not compatible enough with reaper tech to make a new reaper(i rememper reading somewhere), but were still destroyed. The Derelict Reapers "Heart" or w/e had a structure around it that looked alot like a thorian (you really have to look to see it) and the Human reaper larvae was probably going to form the core/heart of a new reaper (until shep killed).
So to my mind the cycle is like reaper menstruation

am I the only one who doesnt want the reapers motives explained?
the more you understand about a villain the less frightning it becomes. I would be ok if it stayed with "we are beyond your comprehension"....  it makes the reapers more powerful, frightning, and unstoppable- and it makes the victory much more gratifying because we defeated a enemy that was allmost god-like.

 

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 30 avril 2012 - 04:13 .

[MaximizedAction]

llbountyhunter wrote...

wow, I can actually follow the thread now that it slowed down... lol.

ok I this may be nothing but I found it interesting.

you know how Garrus tells Shepard to rest? to which shepard responds "ill sleep when im dead"

and in the end scene he says "I feel like death" maybe its a clue to tell us that shepard is not awake..

Nice one, lol!
Sounds more like an insider joke from the writers, rather than a hint. But it's funny if you assume IT.

[Rosewind]

I have a cookie

[MegumiAzusa]

Shadows move quite a bit.