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[MegumiAzusa]

MaximizedAction wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

The shadow also points towards where the beam was with respect to Shepard on Earth...hmmm

No, for that being true it would have be parallel to the other two lines that I draw in to represent some of the floor texture.

The direction of the shadow doesn't really matter. It's rather the length, however, indicates a main light source which is far away.

So? It still doesn't point towards where the beam was. If something points towards something it's a direction. Note I only quoted that last sentence.

[estebanus]

BatmanTurian wrote...

I posted this in Makrys's thread about their fascination with IT. Wanted to repost it here.

"OP sounds like me three minutes after the credits rolled. ' That little pipsqueek is lying his pants off. '

People who don't get I.T., don't like it, or just won't believe it have their reasons and I'm not going to excoriate them for it. I can respect their opinion and still think their out of their minds in denial.

Both camps think the other is in denial. This is the "SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE" that Bioware wanted, but obviously we will find out what the true interpretation is eventually. Unlike the argument between atheists and religion (which Anti-IT like to compare this argument to), we really can find out who is right and who is wrong. In fact, we've already been promised an explanation by a third party who we might as well compare to God or the Universe, since they are the creators of the fictional Mass Effect universe.

We can get answers (eventually) because we can question the creators directly. However, the difference is that in our universe (unless something universe-changing happens) the jury will always be out on the meaning of life and whether there is a God. It will always be about faith, unlike the IDT which is built on evidence. Not only that, but much of the evidence is actually so damning that you have to do mental gymnastics to ignore it. I won't even go into the active denial of literary elements.

At any rate, excellent post, OP. The problem is that many people don't think that deeply about things in media like you and I do. The more you explain to them, the more it seems to infuriate and confuse them. I thought gamers wanted games to be accepted as a medium of art and this interpretation of the ending (if true) would cement that or at least give it a nod. Why deny a storytelling technique possibility in a story-driven game where our choices are supposed to matter, especially at the part where it matters the most? I just don't understand the disconnect, honestly. "

Then someone named Mobius-Silent posted below me and said this in response to Makyrs's statement that " Whether you believe in it or not, you have to admit, its pretty neat. " :

"Not at all. all of the "evidence" I see is either deliberate misunderstanding, outright falehoods or denial.
I.T. consists of the same mental tricks that start religions, it's not "compelling" its not "neat" its _really_ forced fanfic. Fine and dandy for "I like to think of the ending like this" but really _really_ annoying when it's presented as "OMG BIoware are geniuses look at all the PROOF why can't you see its brilliant! you just don't get .I.T, lol you're just in denial!"

Oh hell, looks like I've just posted directly under one of them... great"

To which I replied:

"Again, both camps say the other is in denial. Neither of us have a claim to say we're completely right. We have to wait for Bioware to say. In that way, it is nothing like a religion, conspiracy, or anything like that. It is literalists taking the story for what it is and others looking at the story to see if there is something deeper. Thank you for proving my point."

damn, that was a smart reply!
Well done!

[Kyzee]

 Hey, everyone! I'm back! Not that I expect the thread to come to a halt in celebration or anything, but hi! 
(Scandinavia is awesome, btw. If you get the chance, GO!)

So I left around page 1530, and I come back to page 1892--damn, you guys are prolific! So I've seen something about shadows in the scene with Shepard, Anderson, and TIM. I've seen people handing out cookies (*yoink*) Anything else happen in the time I've been away? Dare I hope that the insane flame wars have been to a minimum? 

[MaximizedAction]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

The shadow also points towards where the beam was with respect to Shepard on Earth...hmmm

No, for that being true it would have be parallel to the other two lines that I draw in to represent some of the floor texture.

The direction of the shadow doesn't really matter. It's rather the length, however, indicates a main light source which is far away.

So? It still doesn't point towards where the beam was. If something points towards something it's a direction. Note I only quoted that last sentence.

Ok, sorry. You're right, of course.

[ExtendedCut]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

ExtendedCut wrote...

marcelo_sdk wrote...

An idea came to mind just now: the Catalyst says that he created the Reapers to "save" the organics from the destruction by the synthetics. But, if what Sovereign says is true, that by using the relays the organics races evolve in the way the Reapers want, it means that the Reapers created the problem they want to solve?

I think that knowing why the first cycle happened would enlight a lot of things.

You know, I had never considered that.  You're right - if the Reapers are "designed" to stop the organics from getting to the point of technological advancement that they can create their own synthetics, and therefore those synthetics will eventually destroy them (i.e. Starbrat's logic), then WHY would the Reapers give organics advanced technology (mass relays) that would only serve to increase and/or speed up the process of technological advancement?

Makes no sense.  Good find.

They give them technology so they don't have to research it for themselves thus stopping them to research a technology that the Reapers could not handle.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here.  "They" meaning humans and other advanced civs?  Or "they" meaning the Reapers?

[BatmanTurian]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Welcome back man, I've met Moebius-Silent, man's a superior little dick****ter, don't worry about the scum. Make yourself comfortable again, I wrote a new script, feel free to check it out.

Thanks for the welcome back. I've been busy with RT stuff ( haven't played MP in a week) but I try to keep up with this thread.  It's wierd, but the longer Bioware goes on not saying anything about IT, the more convinced I am that they intended it but fouled it up somehow, such as when you said that they may have underestimated the consumer response..

[Uncle Jo]

MegumiAzusa wrote...


Also the choice to increase the population on the citadel (allowing more refugees) and giving arms to civilians both result in negative EMS? (Not much and by the text you get not much related but it's suspicious.)

Allowing more would make the Cit run short on food and medical supplies much faster and could be problematic for docking all the ships. That's why I didn't authorize it. 
Giving weapons to the civilians without putting under the strict control of the C-sec would have generated only chaos, hence my support for the creation for the milicia.
Or did you mean that creating a milicia would also decrease your EMS ? If that's the case that's odd...

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 30 avril 2012 - 05:43 .

[BatmanTurian]

estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
*snip*

damn, that was a smart reply!
Well done!

Thanks, but to be honest, Mobius beat me into an "agree to disagree" stance after that. I'm not fond of confrontations.

[BatmanTurian]

MegumiAzusa wrote...
@MegumiAzusa and MaximizedAction

Absolutely true. The atmosphere in the Citadel was the thing that bugged me the most... They were really living in pure denial which can not be only related to fear and will to forget...
Also the choice to increase the population on the citadel (allowing more refugees) and giving arms to civilians both result in negative EMS? (Not much and by the text you get not much related but it's suspicious.)

Their in-game explanation after the fact is that increasing refugees means less food supplies for the Alliance military and that giving arms to civilians makes the criminal element take advantage of that kindness and crime increases on the Citadel.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 30 avril 2012 - 05:53 .

[BatmanTurian]

Uncle Jo wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...


Also the choice to increase the population on the citadel (allowing more refugees) and giving arms to civilians both result in negative EMS? (Not much and by the text you get not much related but it's suspicious.)

Allowing more would make the Cit run short on food and medical supplies much faster and could be problematic for docking all the ships. That's why I didn't authorize it. 
Giving weapons to the civilians without putting under the strict control of the C-sec would have generated only chaos, hence my support for the creation for the milicia.
Or did you mean that creating a milicia would also decrease your EMS ? If that's the case that's odd...

I wasn't aware you could make a militia. I'll have to see about that my next play through.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 30 avril 2012 - 05:52 .

[MegumiAzusa]

ExtendedCut wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

ExtendedCut wrote...

marcelo_sdk wrote...

An idea came to mind just now: the Catalyst says that he created the Reapers to "save" the organics from the destruction by the synthetics. But, if what Sovereign says is true, that by using the relays the organics races evolve in the way the Reapers want, it means that the Reapers created the problem they want to solve?

I think that knowing why the first cycle happened would enlight a lot of things.

You know, I had never considered that.  You're right - if the Reapers are "designed" to stop the organics from getting to the point of technological advancement that they can create their own synthetics, and therefore those synthetics will eventually destroy them (i.e. Starbrat's logic), then WHY would the Reapers give organics advanced technology (mass relays) that would only serve to increase and/or speed up the process of technological advancement?

Makes no sense.  Good find.

They give them technology so they don't have to research it for themselves thus stopping them to research a technology that the Reapers could not handle.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here.  "They" meaning humans and other advanced civs?  Or "they" meaning the Reapers?

The Reapers giving a technology to prevent the organics to research into another area that might result in a superior technology. Prevent in the sense of there is no need to and 50k years isn't enough to create that need.

[ExtendedCut]

Uncle Jo wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...


Also the choice to increase the population on the citadel (allowing more refugees) and giving arms to civilians both result in negative EMS? (Not much and by the text you get not much related but it's suspicious.)

Allowing more would make the Cit run short on food and medical supplies much faster and could be problematic for docking all the ships. That's why I didn't authorize it. 
Giving weapons to the civilians without putting under the strict control of the C-sec would have generated only chaos, hence my support for the creation for the milicia.
Or did you mean that creating a milicia would also decrease your EMS ? If that's the case that's odd...

Personally, I think the question about whether or not to arm the citizens of the Citadel is akin to a fairly super-charged political question (at least in the USA) and is actually a little surprising that they had the balls to put a question like that into a video game.

[BatmanTurian]

Kyzee wrote...

 Hey, everyone! I'm back! Not that I expect the thread to come to a halt in celebration or anything, but hi! 
(Scandinavia is awesome, btw. If you get the chance, GO!)

So I left around page 1530, and I come back to page 1892--damn, you guys are prolific! So I've seen something about shadows in the scene with Shepard, Anderson, and TIM. I've seen people handing out cookies (*yoink*) Anything else happen in the time I've been away? Dare I hope that the insane flame wars have been to a minimum? 

welcome back. I've been away for about half that time myself. It's hard to keep up after even just a couple days.

[BatmanTurian]

ExtendedCut wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...


Also the choice to increase the population on the citadel (allowing more refugees) and giving arms to civilians both result in negative EMS? (Not much and by the text you get not much related but it's suspicious.)

Allowing more would make the Cit run short on food and medical supplies much faster and could be problematic for docking all the ships. That's why I didn't authorize it. 
Giving weapons to the civilians without putting under the strict control of the C-sec would have generated only chaos, hence my support for the creation for the milicia.
Or did you mean that creating a milicia would also decrease your EMS ? If that's the case that's odd...

Personally, I think the question about whether or not to arm the citizens of the Citadel is akin to a fairly super-charged political question (at least in the USA) and is actually a little surprising that they had the balls to put a question like that into a video game.

Agreed. That was one of the moments in the game when it took me more than ten minutes to decide. It was kind of agonizing.

[Rksmithers]

.............. how do i get the battlefield 3 character? .................

[llbountyhunter]

Rksmithers wrote...

.............. how do i get the battlefield 3 character? .................

luck

[llbountyhunter]

ExtendedCut wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...


Also the choice to increase the population on the citadel (allowing more refugees) and giving arms to civilians both result in negative EMS? (Not much and by the text you get not much related but it's suspicious.)

Allowing more would make the Cit run short on food and medical supplies much faster and could be problematic for docking all the ships. That's why I didn't authorize it. 
Giving weapons to the civilians without putting under the strict control of the C-sec would have generated only chaos, hence my support for the creation for the milicia.
Or did you mean that creating a milicia would also decrease your EMS ? If that's the case that's odd...

Personally, I think the question about whether or not to arm the citizens of the Citadel is akin to a fairly super-charged political question (at least in the USA) and is actually a little surprising that they had the balls to put a question like that into a video game.

yeah I think they game was designed to make you hate politics. (which is a good thing).

[BatmanTurian]

Rksmithers wrote...

.............. how do i get the battlefield 3 character? .................

I got it by getting the pre-order edition of Battlefield 3.

[Uncle Jo]

ExtendedCut wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...


Also the choice to increase the population on the citadel (allowing more refugees) and giving arms to civilians both result in negative EMS? (Not much and by the text you get not much related but it's suspicious.)

Allowing more would make the Cit run short on food and medical supplies much faster and could be problematic for docking all the ships. That's why I didn't authorize it. 
Giving weapons to the civilians without putting under the strict control of the C-sec would have generated only chaos, hence my support for the creation for the milicia.
Or did you mean that creating a milicia would also decrease your EMS ? If that's the case that's odd...

Personally, I think the question about whether or not to arm the citizens of the Citadel is akin to a fairly super-charged political question (at least in the USA) and is actually a little surprising that they had the balls to put a question like that into a video game.

I never thought about this from the north-american point of view and the control (or not) of the firearms... Very interesting...Thanks for bringing that point!

@BatmanTurian
In the dispute about selling/giving arms to the civilians you have to side with the clerk not the customer (this option comes after the Cerberus Coup). Listen to the argument of the clerc he'll sy at some point that he rather prefers a militia to be created than armed civilians going on rampage....

[Rksmithers]

llbountyhunter wrote...

Rksmithers wrote...

.............. how do i get the battlefield 3 character? .................

luck

what do you mean?

[Simon_Says]

Well it looks like my earlier statement of "what could be found was found" turned out incorrect. Noice.

Rifneno wrote...

Very minor nitpick: Saren was the one who said Sovereign was insulted by the heretic geth's "pitiful" devotion. Which is odd in retrospect since Legion said that Nazara (Sovereign) is the one who contacted the geth seeking allies. He was looking for their help and then felt insulted when he got it? ... Is it just me, or does anyone else get the impression that Sovereign was kind of a dick even for a Reaper? The rest of them go about their horrible crimes with apparently apathy. Sovereign was just hateful. To everyone. About everything. I wonder if that's why he got stuck with guard duty. "I'm not listening to Nazara's crap for another 50,000 years. Let him play vanguard, I'm going for a nap."

Gotta remember that by ME1 Sovereign was a complete and total screw-up. Not only did it not detect the prothean's sabotage of the keepers for 50 millenia, but its first attempt at invasion with the rachni fell flat on its face, and its second attempt revolves around finding a mass relay that somehow it lost. Not to mention that its new plan revolved around a single indoctrinated agent and due to being discovered on Eden Prime there's another organic on that agent's trail who could screw up the whole plan. Who did. Sure the reapers had backup plans in place but imagine how the conversation between Sovereign and Harbinger would go if Sovereign survived. "We left you 50 000 years with just one job to do, and you couldn't do it."

Also, Sovereign was looking for manpower/fodder, not allies. In that case, some eyerolling would seem natural on Sovereigns part.

[llbountyhunter]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Rksmithers wrote...

.............. how do i get the battlefield 3 character? .................

I got it by getting the pre-order edition of Battlefield 3.

is that how i got it? i never checked... I assumed I unlocked it ramdomly by  pack.  


eh, I dont know how it works. 

[MaximizedAction]

My ten cents on that Keeper at the end.

The only other Keeper I noticed in ME3 was the one on the Docking bay D24. As some point he starts walking on this already narrow corridor and you of course crash into him and then he stops.

Why have him walk THERE? Why not at the Presidium or the Embassies? Why somewhere where you will eventually crash into him. And boy was that a clipping.

[llbountyhunter]

Rksmithers wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

Rksmithers wrote...

.............. how do i get the battlefield 3 character? .................

luck

what do you mean?

well, when you buy a pack you  ramdomly get character and stuff. I always get to much of what I dont need and not enough of what I do.

[BatmanTurian]

Simon_Says wrote...

Well it looks like my earlier statement of "what could be found was found" turned out incorrect. Noice.

Rifneno wrote...

Very minor nitpick: Saren was the one who said Sovereign was insulted by the heretic geth's "pitiful" devotion. Which is odd in retrospect since Legion said that Nazara (Sovereign) is the one who contacted the geth seeking allies. He was looking for their help and then felt insulted when he got it? ... Is it just me, or does anyone else get the impression that Sovereign was kind of a dick even for a Reaper? The rest of them go about their horrible crimes with apparently apathy. Sovereign was just hateful. To everyone. About everything. I wonder if that's why he got stuck with guard duty. "I'm not listening to Nazara's crap for another 50,000 years. Let him play vanguard, I'm going for a nap."

Gotta remember that by ME1 Sovereign was a complete and total screw-up. Not only did it not detect the prothean's sabotage of the keepers for 50 millenia, but its first attempt at invasion with the rachni fell flat on its face, and its second attempt revolves around finding a mass relay that somehow it lost. Not to mention that its new plan revolved around a single indoctrinated agent and due to being discovered on Eden Prime there's another organic on that agent's trail who could screw up the whole plan. Who did. Sure the reapers had backup plans in place but imagine how the conversation between Sovereign and Harbinger would go if Sovereign survived. "We left you 50 000 years with just one job to do, and you couldn't do it."

Also, Sovereign was looking for manpower/fodder, not allies. In that case, some eyerolling would seem natural on Sovereigns part.

It's obvious why he was left behind. He's the Reaper the others don't like and because he would obviously be a screwup in the main invasion, so they put him out as a scout. But he couldn't even succeed at that. Sovereign must have been made of a race of "special" aliens or born losers.
He puffs himself up like he's super-awesome because of his insecurity but the fact that he fails superhard at almost everything he does means he's probably the joke/pariah of the Reaper community. The village idiot, if you will.