57139 réponses à ce sujet

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

byne wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

byne wrote...

I dont care how advanced the tech is, a green light that makes everyone half robot is and always will be bull**** space magic.

And you are therefore creating an arbitrary line between "space magic" and advanced technology

Nope. Cybernetic implants are things that have been established in the series.

Space magic is not.

Its like if randomly during a fight, a Marauder pulled out a wand, yelled "Expelliarmus!" and suddenly our guns were flying out of our hands.

You can try passing the wand off as a hyper-advanced Reaper technology stick, but that doesnt change the fact that its just a wooden stick that should be incapable of doing what it does.

We are not talking cybernetic implants, we are talking complete reconstruction from a totally devastated body that to a modern sensibility has no hope in hell of happening. It is, therefore, using your definition, space magic

His brain and torso were still intact. It was explained through science fiction there for it was believable. I can't believe the ending for some reason.

Modifié par balance5050, 30 avril 2012 - 07:46 .

[byne]

I just read the Crucible codex:

What is clear is that the Crucible's construction is a massive effort, drawing resources from throughout explored space. Staggering financial costs have been disregarded in the common effort to create something, anything, that can stop the Reapers.

What if the Crucible actually doesnt do anything at all?

I find it hard to believe that not a single indoctrinated agent was included among the thousands of people working on the Crucible.

Even if there wasnt, with all the resources being shipped out to the Crucible, locating it should have been fairly simple for the Reapers, yet they never once found it. Maybe the Reapers knew where it was all along, and just left it alone.

No one seems to know who first started building the Crucible. What if its just a piece of junk that the Reapers have tricked countless cycles into pouring their resources into, so that they arent building super advanced dreadnoughts to take down the Reapers instead?

Reminds me of something Ash said after Sanctuary:

"That whole place was so... calculated. Lure the refugees there with false hope, and then kill them."

Something along those lines, dont recall the exact quote.

Modifié par byne, 30 avril 2012 - 07:49 .

[balance5050]

byne wrote...

I just read the Crucible codex:

What is clear is that the Crucible's construction is a massive effort, drawing resources from throughout explored space. Staggering financial costs have been disregarded in the common effort to create something, anything, that can stop the Reapers.

What if the Crucible actually doesnt do anything at all?

I find it hard to believe that not a single indoctrinated agent was included among the thousands of people working on the Crucible.

Even if there wasnt, with all the resources being shipped out to the Crucible, locating it should have been fairly simple for the Reapers, yet they never once found it. Maybe the Reapers knew where it was all along, and just left it alone.

No one seems to know who first started building the Crucible. What if its just a piece of junk that the Reapers have tricked countless cycles into pouring their resources into, so that they arent building super advanced dreadnoughts to take down the Reapers instead?

I just don't like the idea of the crucible in general. The end should have been a RTS using your assets. 

[NotAnotherDisplayName]

HellishFiend wrote...

I think the problem here is that SubAstris truly wishes that he could also have luminescent lines of code flowing all over his body and have a synthorganic squeeze. We're ruining his ability to daydream about it by suggesting that it's too far beyond the suspension of disbelief by calling it space magic.

Or because a lot of things in Mass are "Space Magic" before they get explained.  The problem with the ending sequence is we get no such explanation and it's not preestablished fiction they're going off of, which pisses off hard sci fi fans.

[HellishFiend]

I've said before a couple of times that I still find the concept that the Crucible could be some form of Reaper trap to be a very plausible possibility. Does that mean it doesnt do anything? Not necessarily, but I find it just as reasonable that the Reapers have planted it as a means of some sort of contingency compared to the idea that its something that countless cycles have been working on, adding to, and keeping hidden from the reapers this whole time.

[BatmanTurian]

ExtendedCut wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

It wasn't successful for a certain group of people. The fact that this thread is almost 2000 pages strong is indicative that it was successful on some level.

Yeah.  That's my point exactly.  If the ending is actually literal (i.e. IT does not exist), and the closure we are supposed to feel is a more "artistic" metaphorical/emotional ending, rather than being spelled-out for us, then it failed because nobody agrees that is the case.

Alright, I'm trying to understand. You're saying that it can't be literal because it doesn't make sense without applying metaphors, right?

[byne]

balance5050 wrote...

I just don't like the idea of the crucible in general. The end should have been a RTS using your assets. 

You literally have no clue how much I would have hated that. I suck super hard at RTS games.

An RTS game would have sucked super hard, and relying on an RTS game to defeat the Reapers would have meant I'd literally never beat the game, let alone get my insanity achievement.

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

byne wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

byne wrote...

I dont care how advanced the tech is, a green light that makes everyone half robot is and always will be bull**** space magic.

And you are therefore creating an arbitrary line between "space magic" and advanced technology

Nope. Cybernetic implants are things that have been established in the series.

Space magic is not.

Its like if randomly during a fight, a Marauder pulled out a wand, yelled "Expelliarmus!" and suddenly our guns were flying out of our hands.

You can try passing the wand off as a hyper-advanced Reaper technology stick, but that doesnt change the fact that its just a wooden stick that should be incapable of doing what it does.

We are not talking cybernetic implants, we are talking complete reconstruction from a totally devastated body that to a modern sensibility has no hope in hell of happening. It is, therefore, using your definition, space magic

His brain and torso were still intact. It was explained through science fiction there for it was believable. I can't believe the ending for some reason.

Yet he crashed into a planet...What is that reason you can't believe it?

[ExtendedCut]

byne wrote...

I just read the Crucible codex:

What is clear is that the Crucible's construction is a massive effort, drawing resources from throughout explored space. Staggering financial costs have been disregarded in the common effort to create something, anything, that can stop the Reapers.

What if the Crucible actually doesnt do anything at all?

I find it hard to believe that not a single indoctrinated agent was included among the thousands of people working on the Crucible.

Even if there wasnt, with all the resources being shipped out to the Crucible, locating it should have been fairly simple for the Reapers, yet they never once found it. Maybe the Reapers knew where it was all along, and just left it alone.

No one seems to know who first started building the Crucible. What if its just a piece of junk that the Reapers have tricked countless cycles into pouring their resources into, so that they arent building super advanced dreadnoughts to take down the Reapers instead?

Reminds me of something Ash said after Sanctuary:

"That whole place was so... calculated. Lure the refugees there with false hope, and then kill them."

Something along those lines, dont recall the exact quote.

So maybe the EC will actually consist of Bioware saying "Psyche! Shepard really was indoctinated and all of the end sequence was in his mind!  But we got the last laugh because after Shepard's vision, everyone dies anyway, because the Crucible didn't do anything and the Reapers won!"

[NotAnotherDisplayName]

byne wrote...

<snip>
"That whole place was so... calculated. Lure the refugees there with false hope, and then kill them."

Something along those lines, dont recall the exact quote.

I suspect the same thing, I've got a hunch the crucible was either a trap or a test.  100s of 1000s of years and the Reapers didn't know enough about it to stop civs from making it? 

The thing is, if it was a test (and the word itself implies) what was it a test for?

[balance5050]

NotAnotherDisplayName wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

I think the problem here is that SubAstris truly wishes that he could also have luminescent lines of code flowing all over his body and have a synthorganic squeeze. We're ruining his ability to daydream about it by suggesting that it's too far beyond the suspension of disbelief by calling it space magic.

Or because a lot of things in Mass are "Space Magic" before they get explained.  The problem with the ending sequence is we get no such explanation and it's not preestablished fiction they're going off of, which pisses off hard sci fi fans.

Problem with that is things are usually explained up front so they never have a chance to be space magic.

The only one explaining what the crucible will do is a vision clearly stolen from your own thoughts, an untrustworthy narrator.

[DJBare]

Here is one to try out, stand at the top of the ramp that leads to where Anderson is, turn to face left or right, then take your eyes off the screen and just listen, listen to the electrical arching, I'm not going to tell you what I hear, I'm going to leave it up to you.

[ExtendedCut]

NotAnotherDisplayName wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

I think the problem here is that SubAstris truly wishes that he could also have luminescent lines of code flowing all over his body and have a synthorganic squeeze. We're ruining his ability to daydream about it by suggesting that it's too far beyond the suspension of disbelief by calling it space magic.

Or because a lot of things in Mass are "Space Magic" before they get explained.  The problem with the ending sequence is we get no such explanation and it's not preestablished fiction they're going off of, which pisses off hard sci fi fans.

Good point.  This is very true, but the introduction of an "all knowing, all seeing, deus ex machina-type character to conveniently wrap things up" in the final sequence is just poor story-telling, even if there was an after-the-fact explanation.  It doesn't matter what genre it is.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

byne wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

byne wrote...

I dont care how advanced the tech is, a green light that makes everyone half robot is and always will be bull**** space magic.

And you are therefore creating an arbitrary line between "space magic" and advanced technology

Nope. Cybernetic implants are things that have been established in the series.

Space magic is not.

Its like if randomly during a fight, a Marauder pulled out a wand, yelled "Expelliarmus!" and suddenly our guns were flying out of our hands.

You can try passing the wand off as a hyper-advanced Reaper technology stick, but that doesnt change the fact that its just a wooden stick that should be incapable of doing what it does.

We are not talking cybernetic implants, we are talking complete reconstruction from a totally devastated body that to a modern sensibility has no hope in hell of happening. It is, therefore, using your definition, space magic

His brain and torso were still intact. It was explained through science fiction there for it was believable. I can't believe the ending for some reason.

Yet he crashed into a planet...What is that reason you can't believe it?

He crashed into a planet wearing a futuristic armor with his kinetic barriers up. The impact still killed him and devastated his body, but his helmet remained relatively intact preserving his brain. As such he could be revived by reviviong the brain in a body created mostly from cybernetics and cloned tissue. Oh and this procedure took 2 years and more money than most see in an entire life.

In light of many other survival explanations, this one is feasible within a Sci-Fi universe such as Mass Effect. Synthesis in mere moments through a wave of energy covering the entire galaxy...not so much.

[Kyzee]

[quote]lex0r11 wrote...

[...]


[/quote]

Reposting because very applicable.


Also, hey Kyzee, welcome back! *wave*

[/quote]

HI!! ::waves back::

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...


Yet he crashed into a planet...What is that reason you can't believe it?

The only reason he wasn't burned in the atmosphere is because he had on full space gear complete with electronic shields, and it is stated that that planet had a very thin atmosphere which further contributed to his body being some what intact. He landed as a chunk of meat, which is actually MUCH more realistic compared to another sci-fi game (Halo, Master Chief falls through the atmosphere and get up like nothing happened.) TIM and Miranda give you insight to how they did it through out the length of ME2.

All the science and everything is explained, not so much for the ending.

Modifié par balance5050, 30 avril 2012 - 08:06 .

[byne]

SubAstris wrote...


Yet he crashed into a planet...What is that reason you can't believe it?

Crashed into a planet, but with the brain fully intact. I can believe in restoring the rest of the body using cloning tech to regrow body parts combined with cybernetic implants, because that is standard sci-fi stuff, and even in modern times we've been able to grow certain body parts in a lab, and we have some small measure of implants to help deaf and blind people, so over 150 years in the future its easy to believe we'd have made great leaps forward in those fields.

We cant believe the ending because it somehow fuses organic and robotic DNA (or as my friend Bender would call it 'RNA') together, and makes organic synthetic hybrids.

Now, lets just forget for a second that synthetics dont freaking HAVE DNA, and just focus on the stupidity of a green light somehow being capable of turning everyone into half-synthetic hybrids.

My major question is this: The Reapers are more advanced than any of the galaxy's current sapient species. Why couldnt THEY just build the Crucible on their own? It accomplishes their goal for them instantaneously without the need for the slow harvesting.

Are you telling me the current cycle out-teched the Reapers? We built something they couldnt?

Why would the Reapers constantly stop previous cycles from completing the Crucible? Godchild controls them, and clearly wants to use the Crucible. Why not let the Protheans or any other cycle finish it?

I'm fairly sure I've drifted away from making any single concrete point here, but thats how retarded the idea of the Crucible is. It defies attempts to concisely explain its level of stupidity and requires long winded rants.

[byne]

ExtendedCut wrote...


So maybe the EC will actually consist of Bioware saying "Psyche! Shepard really was indoctinated and all of the end sequence was in his mind!  But we got the last laugh because after Shepard's vision, everyone dies anyway, because the Crucible didn't do anything and the Reapers won!"

Well I still dont buy the idea that the Reapers cant be defeated conventionally. That just seems like faulty reasoning people are employing to justify the need for the Crucible.

The codex on the Reapers and the Reaper War show quite a few places where we were victorious, or at least holding our ground against the Reaper forces.

[SubAstris]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

byne wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

byne wrote...

I dont care how advanced the tech is, a green light that makes everyone half robot is and always will be bull**** space magic.

And you are therefore creating an arbitrary line between "space magic" and advanced technology

Nope. Cybernetic implants are things that have been established in the series.

Space magic is not.

Its like if randomly during a fight, a Marauder pulled out a wand, yelled "Expelliarmus!" and suddenly our guns were flying out of our hands.

You can try passing the wand off as a hyper-advanced Reaper technology stick, but that doesnt change the fact that its just a wooden stick that should be incapable of doing what it does.

We are not talking cybernetic implants, we are talking complete reconstruction from a totally devastated body that to a modern sensibility has no hope in hell of happening. It is, therefore, using your definition, space magic

His brain and torso were still intact. It was explained through science fiction there for it was believable. I can't believe the ending for some reason.

Yet he crashed into a planet...What is that reason you can't believe it?

He crashed into a planet wearing a futuristic armor with his kinetic barriers up. The impact still killed him and devastated his body, but his helmet remained relatively intact preserving his brain. As such he could be revived by reviviong the brain in a body created mostly from cybernetics and cloned tissue. Oh and this procedure took 2 years and more money than most see in an entire life.

In light of many other survival explanations, this one is feasible within a Sci-Fi universe such as Mass Effect. Synthesis in mere moments through a wave of energy covering the entire galaxy...not so much.

The amount of money is irrelevant, it requires a lot of handwaving to explain what happened. It might have been a pseudo-explanation but don't let that fool you, it is nonetheless space magic (if you take the same definition many use for Synthesis)

[balance5050]

byne wrote...

ExtendedCut wrote...


So maybe the EC will actually consist of Bioware saying "Psyche! Shepard really was indoctinated and all of the end sequence was in his mind!  But we got the last laugh because after Shepard's vision, everyone dies anyway, because the Crucible didn't do anything and the Reapers won!"

Well I still dont buy the idea that the Reapers cant be defeated conventionally. That just seems like faulty reasoning people are employing to justify the need for the Crucible.

The codex on the Reapers and the Reaper War show quite a few places where we were victorious, or at least holding our ground against the Reaper forces.

They only needed to have Shepard kill Harbinger, they could have left the other reapers for ME4, and I would have been more satisfied. Heck the next 3 games could have taken place during the reaper war and I would have been happy.

The idea of Shepard uniting the galaxy to conventionally beat the reapers is attractive to me. No need for a crucible, we could have had some giant space mechs by now if it weren't for the crucible.

Modifié par balance5050, 30 avril 2012 - 08:13 .

[BatmanTurian]

Anyway, back to my original point (which is an anecdotal opinion, I guess), it just seems to me like Anti-IT people have to base their argument on taking the endings at face value (which make no sense) and claim that a storytelling element (Battle In The Center Of The Mind) can't be happening in a storytelling game. Therefore, they should be defined as Literalists. SubAstris disagrees for whatever nebulous reason besides " I don't like the connotations of that name". He hasn't made a very good case against it.

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

Or, in short: If it's not in the codex, it's bullsh*t.

I even like what the codex says the crucible will do more than what the kid says.

The codex makes it sound like we were just creating a gigantic laser sniper rifle, I thought the ending was going to be a simple turret sequence of grand proportions.

I expected this before the game was released. I would've never dreamed that the ending would be so tame and uneventful.

The reapers are here for crying out loud. Whe're the Epic reaper battle to end all reaper battles?

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

The amount of money is irrelevant, it requires a lot of handwaving to explain what happened. It might have been a pseudo-explanation but don't let that fool you, it is nonetheless space magic (if you take the same definition many use for Synthesis)

Wut? So all sci fi is space magic by your logic then.

It makes sense to be able to preserve a brain and put it in an artificial body, which isn't exactly what happens in ME 2 but its a common sci-fi occurence.

SCI-FI CONSISTS OF  "PSEUDO-EXPLANATIONS" YOU FOOL!

[Kyzee]

Oh, lord, how I wish I could get into this debate properly. I have thoughts, it's just . . . cohesion. Curse you, jet lag!

I'll just say that I'm on the "Shepard's reconstruction not equal Space Magic" side, not the "Laser Beam = new DNA/explosion that somehow don't destroy all life in systems with mass relays despite canon" side.

That's as sophisticated as I can get right now. <_<

[byne]

balance5050 wrote...

byne wrote...

ExtendedCut wrote...


So maybe the EC will actually consist of Bioware saying "Psyche! Shepard really was indoctinated and all of the end sequence was in his mind!  But we got the last laugh because after Shepard's vision, everyone dies anyway, because the Crucible didn't do anything and the Reapers won!"

Well I still dont buy the idea that the Reapers cant be defeated conventionally. That just seems like faulty reasoning people are employing to justify the need for the Crucible.

The codex on the Reapers and the Reaper War show quite a few places where we were victorious, or at least holding our ground against the Reaper forces.

They only needed to have Shepard kill Harbinger, they could have left the other reapers for ME4, and I would have been more satisfied. Heck the next 3 games could have taken place during the reaper war and I would have been happy.

The idea of Shepard uniting the galaxy to conventionally beat the reapers is attractive to me. No need for a crucible, we could have had some giant space mechs by now if it weren't for the crucible.

They straight up say in the codex that four dreadnoughts can take town one Sovereign-class Reaper (less if they are equipped with Thanix cannons), and a cruiser or even a group of fighters can take down a Reaper Destroyer.

The Reapers are way less powerful than people think they are.