57139 réponses à ce sujet

[k8ee]

You know what would have been awesome? If you chose to destroy the reapers, which is what you were trying to do for the entire 3 games, then the world around you sort of dissolved, revealing some completely different location on the Citadel. You realize you haven't been holding a gun at all, and all the other choices were harby trying to convince you to spare the reapers because it knows you're about to destroy them (both those choices involve you dying btw, which is what harby would want because you'd stop fighting). When you snap out of it you hit the kill switch, destroying the reapers, and if your war assets are high enough the Normandy pulls you to safety.

[Hellfire257]

Regarding EDI and the destroy ending, I think she would take regular back-ups of herself on a redundant system. She wouldn't be much good at electronic warfare if she didn't!

That way if the hardware is fried, all that needs to be done is repair/rebuild it and then restore the latest backup.

[SandTrout]

Hellfire257 wrote...

Regarding EDI and the destroy ending, I think she would take regular back-ups of herself on a redundant system. She wouldn't be much good at electronic warfare if she didn't!

That way if the hardware is fried, all that needs to be done is repair/rebuild it and then restore the latest backup.

nice thought, but her AI design necessarily negates the actual transfer of EDI's "soul", which is inherently tied to the quantum blue-box at the center of her processing.

[krystalevenstar]

A couple more things I thought of;

Whenever Shepard was in a dream throughout the game, his/her movement was considerably slowed while chasing the phantom child. The movement after being hit by Harbinger is at the same pace, we're just supposed to attribute it to Shepard being injured.

When Shepard reaches the child in the dreams, the child goes up in flames. The last dream also shows Shepard with the child and both of them going up in flames. This makes me feel it's foreshadowing that 'If you choose to go with the child, you will fail'. You have to stick to your guns about destroying The Reapers once and for all, even if it means sacrificing the synthetic life for the good of the galaxy as a whole. A conversation with Garrus shortly after The Citadel attack also references this, he basically asks if you would have been able to shoot VS or not. Sacrificing few to save the many.

Everything I keep reading points more and more to the fact this is an internal test of Shepard's personal resolve/attempted indoctrination by Harbinger and that we haven't fought the real final battle yet.

Modifié par krystalevenstar, 10 mars 2012 - 09:53 .

[Auresta]

krystalevenstar wrote...

A couple more things I thought of;

Whenever Shepard was in a dream throughout the game, his/her movement was considerably slowed while chasing the phantom child. The movement after being hit by Harbinger is at the same pace, we're just supposed to attribute it to Shepard being injured.

When Shepard reaches the child in the dreams, the child goes up in flames. The last dream also shows Shepard with the child and both of them going up in flames. This makes me feel it's foreshadowing that 'If you choose to go with the child, you will fail'. You have to stick to your guns about destroying The Reapers once and for all, even if it means sacrificing the synthetic life for the good of the galaxy as a whole. A conversation with Garrus shortly after The Citadel attack also references this, he basically asks if you would have been able to shoot VS or not.

Everything I keep reading points more and more to the fact this is an internal test of Shepard's personal resolve/attempted indoctrination by Harbinger and that we haven't fought the real final battle yet.

I like this. The dreams, other than serving as a reminder of Shepard's psychological trauma, seem to have more meaning with the direction you're going. 

[Hellfire257]

Depends what part was fried though. I would imagine that the energy pulse would be EM based. Dunno if EM could wreck a quantum box though.

[DocStone]

I f&@#ing hope so.

[k8ee]

krystalevenstar wrote...

A couple more things I thought of;

Whenever
Shepard was in a dream throughout the game, his/her movement was
considerably slowed while chasing the phantom child. The movement after
being hit by Harbinger is at the same pace, we're just supposed to
attribute it to Shepard being injured.

When Shepard reaches the child in the dreams, the child goes up in flames. The
last dream also shows Shepard with the child and both of them going up
in flames. This makes me feel it's foreshadowing that 'If you choose to
go with the child, you will fail'. You have to stick to your guns
about destroying The Reapers once and for all, even if it means
sacrificing the synthetic life for the good of the galaxy as a whole. A
conversation with Garrus shortly after The Citadel attack also
references this, he basically asks if you would have been able to shoot
VS or not. Sacrificing few to save the many.

Everything I keep
reading points more and more to the fact this is an internal test of
Shepard's personal resolve/attempted indoctrination by Harbinger and
that we haven't fought the real final battle yet.

^ Playing off this would be a good way to make an acceptable ending DLC

Modifié par k8ee, 10 mars 2012 - 09:56 .

[k8ee]

The other two endings are fails. Reapers survive by convincing you to compromise.

[humes spork]

lookingglassmind wrote...

Hmm. Thank you for your elaboration. I need to think about how this connects to Synthesis.

Oh. Yeah. AI. Sorry. I had to get that dark energy rant out of my system, considering it's been building for a couple weeks or so once people started flocking to it in droves after hearing about the endings we have.

In ME1 you run into an assignment starting in Flux regarding someone using wireless signals to steal credits. The suspicious gambling machine assignment -- you know the one. You trace the signal and come to find out it's an AI that's stealing credits to build itself a ship and mainframe to escape the Citadel. You end up with a nice little conversation with it and find out it believes organic/synthetic coexistence is impossible, since organics don't acknowledge the validity of artificial existence; and to that end, organics attempt to enslave synthetics and destroy those which rebel against their creators. It has a self-destruct mechanism/bomb and threatens to blow up the Presidium markets if you don't let it go, so Shepard's forced to either disarm the self-destruct or destroy the AI.

My point with the whole thing is that technological singularity is very credible, given the conflicts between organics and synthetics and the themes of the game. Especially from synthetic perspectives, which hold that as sapient beings they have rights and deserve fair treatment despite being artificial. As evidenced through the whole quarian/geth thing, the organic response to this is fear and prejudice, and lashing out against the life organics created. And, in a more objective analysis it's organics' unpredictable behavior towards synthetics that makes technological singularity an inevitability.

Which is why I said what I initially did, there. Given the "victory conditions" for merge, it makes me wonder, if indeed the ending is Harbinger head-frakking Shepard, it's because Shepard's treatment towards the geth and finding a peaceful solution in that conflict made Harbinger question the inevitability of the singularity. Because organics cannot always be counted upon to react violently to synthetics, and it took finding the right circumstances under which peace could truly flourish. And if Shepard is willing to put his or her very existence on the line to allow synthetics to at least self-determinate, then perhaps the Reapers are wrong.

[Carmin_Steele]

krystalevenstar wrote...

A couple more things I thought of;

Whenever Shepard was in a dream throughout the game, his/her movement was considerably slowed while chasing the phantom child. The movement after being hit by Harbinger is at the same pace, we're just supposed to attribute it to Shepard being injured.

When Shepard reaches the child in the dreams, the child goes up in flames. The last dream also shows Shepard with the child and both of them going up in flames. This makes me feel it's foreshadowing that 'If you choose to go with the child, you will fail'. You have to stick to your guns about destroying The Reapers once and for all, even if it means sacrificing the synthetic life for the good of the galaxy as a whole. A conversation with Garrus shortly after The Citadel attack also references this, he basically asks if you would have been able to shoot VS or not. Sacrificing few to save the many.

Everything I keep reading points more and more to the fact this is an internal test of Shepard's personal resolve/attempted indoctrination by Harbinger and that we haven't fought the real final battle yet.

I thought the SAME THING. I felt the same way, and have wondered. The whole ending just... makes no sense and doesn't fit within the rest of ME's themes.

[comrade gando]

Indeed, I refuse to accept the game going out with a whimper like this, it had everything set up to be an epic boss battle, freakin' harbinger was there! I got a feeling they didn't have time to finish the true final boss harbinger, so what we get is placeholder endings....I HOPE.

[krystalevenstar]

I might check later and correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the dream even go so far as to show Shepard embracing the child before we get the scene with the both of them burning?

[k8ee]

And... is the burning child representational of the infant like state of the galaxy's AIs? That you have to let them burn so that the galaxy as it is can continue?

Edit, yes, if Shepard embraces the child, they both burn. These have to be foreshadowing... it can't possibly be coincidence.

Modifié par k8ee, 10 mars 2012 - 10:02 .

[krystalevenstar]

I'm going to go back and watch that dream scene again, luckily I think it's in the midst of Kaiden's love scene :3 I'm also going to check out some more codex entries.

[Beast919]

k8ee wrote...

FugitiveMind wrote...

Page 5, Beast919's post... pretty much covers it all

Yes, that list and there are a few more important points, like the codex about indoctrination, etc, etc. I'm heading out too, but if I return and it isn't done, perhaps I will piece it all together.

I've been going back and adding in bits & pieces to the list (admittedly sloppily) as I come across them.  If you read it and see something you'd like to add just post it in a good format such as

Point we haven't though of ) Blah blah blah

I'll copy pasta it onto the list.

[Necroscope]

krystalevenstar wrote...

Okay, so I just played the ending 2 more times so I could have them as a basis to compare to my original ending. I'll break down all the notes I took as best I can

1. I believe the Starchild is either Harbinger, Sovereign, or it's own Reaper entity, Catalyst. Regardless, no question about it, the child is a reaper/ the reaper consciousness.
     - Why I think it's Sovereign;  We know from Mass Effect 1 that originally The Citadel was supposed to be used BY the Reapers to bring them all back from Dark Space.  Sovereign connects itself to that same antenna arm of The Citadel that the Crucible connects to and is waiting for Saren to use the same control panel to send the signal to let the Reapers through. If Sovereign managed to transfer it's AI consciousness into The Citadel before being destroyed in ME1, it could explain it's consciousness as the starchild, being there.
     - Why I think the child is a reaper; throughout your conversation with the star child, it constantly references itself as 'We' when talking about the reapers. There are multiple lines of dialoge to support this:

• "We know you want to destroy us"
• "You can control us"
• "He could never have controlled us, because we already controlled him"

    However, it does go on to say a line about how 'The Crucible changed Me', interesting when you think about EDI's revelations about Legion referring to himself as I instead of We earlier in the game.
     - Behind the child's voice, you can hear a much deeper resonating voice like when we spoke to Sovereign on Virmire.
     - When Shepard says the line about organics deserving freedom, she follows with 'otherwise we'd be machines just like you.'

2. When Shep thinks she's on The Citadel, she's really dreaming/ her consciousness is inside Harbinger.
      - Anderson points out that the area of 'The Citadel' that they're in reminds him of how Shep described the            collector base.  All the bodies on the floor are human, no other species. He asks if Shep thinks they're 'building a reaper', but if it's all left from bodies previously consumed by Harbinger it makes sense.
      - Shep says that she doesn't recognize this as any part of The Citadel she's ever been to, however, the area where the control panel is should be about exactly where we fought Saren in ME1, the council chambers. That's where that control panel is, because it's the same one Saren was trying to use in ME1; Shepard should be able to recognize it.
      - When you first arrive on The Citadel in the scary room with all the corpses and keepers, you have your gun. You can shoot at the keepers and nothing will happen. This is established to be something we -know- is untrue. During the endgame approach of ME1, during the cutscene, Saren shoots and kills a keeper in the council chambers on the way to the control panel.
      - Being inside of Harbinger could be why 'Anderson' and Shepard's consciousness feel the immediate indoctrination during the scene with TIM
      - There are 'reaper tech' looking things on your approach to the control panel. Giant bundles of cable hanging from the ceiling, large purple lights, the lightning going over the walls like it does on the outside of the reaper shells.
      - Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but if it IS The Citadel, didn't we learn that itself was reaper tech in the first game? Since they were going to use the citadel to bring the reapers back then?
     
Other interesting side notes,
- The first line of dialoge spoken by the starchild/reaper is 'Wake up'
- There is only one entrance to the control panel room inside 'the citadel', Shepard does not pass Anderson, or see him right in front, yet somehow Anderson gets to the control panel first.
- Anderson has a nice line about 'There's always another way'
- When Hackett first contacts you in the control room, he goes 'Shepard? Commander?' which immediately made me think of Legion and that I was still stuck in his damn VI XD That one's silly, but still.

>_>
.
.
.
Is it obvious I really badly want this to be true? XD

There is more to it I belive:
- Why Shep's squadmates did not follow him up to the beam if they survived?
IMO that's because they thought he was dead (he's lying under some debris) and were forced to withdrawn. Normady probably picked them up later on.
- What is Joker doing near the Relay?
He is escaping, because the situation on Earth become hopeless (earlier he saved the Earth team).
- Why Normady crashed on some planet?
They managed to escape and are safe from the Reapers, since they harvest only advanced civilizations. The cycle is over, but one day they may be able to return to stars once again.

Sry for my eng.

[lookingglassmind]

humes spork wrote...

...it's because Shepard's treatment towards the geth and finding a peaceful solution in that conflict made Harbinger question the inevitability of the singularity. Because organics cannot always be counted upon to react violently to synthetics, and it took finding the right circumstances under which peace could truly flourish. And if Shepard is willing to put his or her very existence on the line to allow synthetics to at least self-determinate, then perhaps the Reapers are wrong.

You really make a damn convincing argument for Synthesis. And it aligns with my instincts as to what the ending was attempting to achieve in Shepard. But, as a plot mechanism for the ME series? I don't know. The lore is one thing (and should be the dictating thing that determines the cannon, IMO), but the BioWare-celebrated self-determinism of the player through Shepard seems to take precedence over anything in-game.

I wondered if Destroy was (inadvertantly, not overtly, as I don't think it would be a sensible primary outcome) the lore's way of testing the player's own indoctrination. Do we, at the last moment, become overcome by the Catalyst? Because, like Shepard, we move through the series with a singular goal. And then, at the end, we are given options not hitherto considered, and we have to stop and think. We waver. Synthesis, although being the most appealing as an option, seemed suspect to me simply because it seemed to serve the Reapers' indoctrination.

But, as a higher concept and theory, Synthesis appeals. I just can't get over the insidious potential of indoctrination that it implies.

[Dranume]

I stuck with Destroy, because it seemed the most fitting if infact I was being indoctrinated and ones Will power comes into check to fight it.

[k8ee]

The problem with synthesis is that the reapers still remain. It just seems wrong - too fairy tale... how can they make something that rewrites everything.

Also, thanks Beast919, didn't realize you were updating =D

[Xellith]

The ending isnt canon. It cant be. Its too retarded.

[TuringPoint]

 The ending effectively portrays Shepard being near death, and encountering TIM who is indoctrinated.  

It also captures the unfathomable scale in that what happens is not a 'conventional' win over the Reapers.  That Shepard was in a place where technology took on the quality of magic, and he met an 'ascended' being.  Trying to explain these things in detail would fall short for the simple fact that these are unexplainable events.  

Not to say your concerns about the ending aren't justified, I share them.. sort of.  I just know its hard to end a series like this.  It's a massive undertaking and they had limited resources.  Belive it or not.

Modifié par Alocormin, 10 mars 2012 - 10:20 .

[Beast919]

Necroscope wrote...
[*]There is more to it I belive:
- Why Shep's squadmates did not follow him up to the beam if they survived?
IMO that's because they thought he was dead (he's lying under some debris) and were forced to withdrawn. Normady probably picked them up later on.
- What is Joker doing near the Relay?
He is escaping, because the situation on Earth become hopeless (earlier he saved the Earth team).
- Why Normady crashed on some planet?
They managed to escape and are safe from the Reapers, since they harvest only advanced civilizations. The cycle is over, but one day they may be able to return to stars once again.

Sry for my eng.

[*]First, the squad would not have withdrawn (even if in your playthrough they weren't lying dead on the floor) - They knew it was all or nothing, and they didn't even have an escape route planned (there were hundreds of reapers around, leaving would not have been easy, if even possible).  It would probably be just as dangerous to leave as it was to try and accomplish their mission.
[*]Second, you have to consider the timeline here.  From Shep's awakening after the blast to the point at which he decides on his God Kid choice is no more than 10-15 minutes.  To assume that Joker was in the area, able to dodge reapers, land, pick up the squad, take off, dodge reapers, and immediately abandon Earth and everyone fighting for it and head to the relay in 10-15 minutes is nonsense. 
[*]
[*]Third, even considering, in the farthest reaches of possibility and complete lack of developed character, the Squad retreated and was picked up by Joker with their diabolical plan to leave cause everything was lost.....5 minutes into the post-laser scene Shepard is talking with Hackett on the radio.  And Joker would hear this....and abandon the notion that Shepard was dead.  And probably try to communicate with Shepard to organize his escape.

Modifié par Beast919, 10 mars 2012 - 10:28 .

[k8ee]

Anything other than this theory is just bad story telling, and it's bad story telling because people who love mass effect are left feeling devastated and empty. If it were an acceptable, well done ending I would want to play it again, right now. In fact I would already be playing again.

It's just not the case.

[SandTrout]

Xellith wrote...

The ending isnt canon. It cant be. Its too retarded.

I find it difficult to argue against this point.