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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#47826
llbountyhunter

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Rifneno wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

I'm sure that if all races actually coordinated and were willing to do whatever's necessary to win, they'd have a fair chance of winning against the Reapers. Detonating mass relays, or at least the Earth one, would be a place to start. And didn't Thessia put up a pretty good fight because they used hit-and-run attacks instead of the standard "stay in one place and shoot" that we see in cutscenes? There are some possible methods of winning without the Crucible, but they'd be pretty difficult and would cost many lives.


I'm not saying the Crucible is the answer. In fact I'm fairly sure the damned thing is a Reaper trap. I posted my theory on means of defeating the Reapers a week or so ago, but it didn't seem too popular.

I'm not sure detonating mass relays would even kill the Reapers. It killed 300,000 batarians in a colony but batarians can't detect an explosion incoming and get the hell out of dodge at 500 times the speed of light. When characters in-game suggested destroying the relays, they merely suggested it as a means to slow down the Reapers' travel rather than to actually kill them in the blast. It's unlikely that the explosion would expand faster than Reapers can move at FTL. There's also the logistics of it. Ramming a plantoid into a relay takes a lot of set up and would be easy for the Reapers to stop. Honestly I think they'd be better off just building very high yield thermonuclear weapons. Reapers' best defenses are their kinetic barriers, which is why heat based weapons are the most effective against them. So there's a good reason Udina said that the Reapers' first targets on Earth were nuclear missile silos: nuclear weapons can kill Reapers.

llbountyhunter wrote...

to an extent. it wasnt so much about my anology as the idea behind it.

i mean why do the reapers seam so powerfull? because thats how they project themselvs, they WANT you to think theres no hope, that your facing an unstoppable enemy, to cause fractures from within. and while the reapers ARE very powerfull they do have there limits. the battle of swords proves that if you remaind organised and united the possiblity of a conveional win doesnt seem so remote anymore.

to sum up: to reapers seem unstoppable only because thats what they want you to think.


They use a myriad of tactics. Psychological warfare is just one of them. They really are overwhelmingly powerful on top of it. Sword proved nothing. Go watch it again. Even with the best setup, you see one capital ship lose a few tentacles. That's it. Hackett said himself that they cannot beat the Reapers in conventional warfare. It's simply not going to happen. Sword is only buying time to get the Crucible going. That's it. The task of holding an enemy off is very different than actually destroying that enemy. Also note that the bulk of the Reapers' forces are not at Earth. I don't know where that came from. Hell, we saw far more than that just in the shot at the end of ME2. The bulk of the galactic community's forces, however, may indeed be there. And just buying time is all they hope to do.

it is also the only battle were we see that the majority of the causalties being on the reaper side.


One capital ship losing a couple arms counts as a majority of casualties?!


no, when the normandy is flying low,(like the last 5 sec of the scene) you can see more dead reaper bodies  than alliance ships (the opposite is true of you have low ems)

also when talking to the star kid, you see many more alliance ships in the backgroung than reaper ships.... again if you have low ems you see more reaper ships.

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 01 mai 2012 - 03:29 .


#47827
balance5050

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LOL at people who think control and synthesis are good ideas (in the context of the Mass Effect ending).

#47828
HellishFiend

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IsaacShep wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Wait, so you think that what Bioware has said so far about the EC means theyre actually going to change the existing endings, but discounts the possibility of IT? *scratches head*

None of the things I mentioned change the 3 existing endings (and their variations like Earth destroyed, devastated, intact etc)


Almost everything you mentioned change the 3 existing endings. "fixing the plot hole" of the Normandy's escape/crash landing requires changing existing events. Adding dialog to the starchild scene requires changing existing dialogs. Those are both things that Bioware has outright said they will not do. 

#47829
Allaiya

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Yeah synthesis is the worst imo, and I will be so disappointed if the EC makes it out to look like the best option :-/

#47830
llbountyhunter

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HellishFiend wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

can I try one last time? ok this is based on in-game evidence.

not unified= reapers win battle
unfied= we win battle
indoctrination= nobody gets unified.

this is all stuff we see with our own eyes- not making anything up here,


I think that unification gives the allied forces a chance to find *a way* to beat the Reapers. I will never be convinced that conventional warfare can become that means to total victory. Again you're using the word battle in a context where the only word that applies is "war". The allied forces are absolutely capable of winning battles, but I simply dont think that conventional victory in the war is a possibility, given all the circumstances. 


a war is the cumilation many battles- the battle of the sword is a critical one, the majority of the reapers are there (I think the prothean VI said this... not 100% sure though). in this case this battle=war... (although this doesnt mean I still dont see the bigger picture)

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 01 mai 2012 - 03:28 .


#47831
lex0r11

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Arian Dynas wrote...

[...]

No worries man, you deserve it. Going back form page 1911 I put every poster, as well as everyone from 1-5. I need help to do more of course.

Also, placement on the list (with the exception of byne.) does not indicate importance, but higher on the list DOES mean you are more regular here. And no, if you are above someone on the list it probably means I randomly shoved you into a roughly corresponding area to your regularity, not that you actually visit more often than the people on the list.

Oh, and the only poster whom I haven't added from those pages I listed, is me. I leave it to all of you to decide where I fit in.


I shouldn't have written that, came out wrong. Naturally, everything should be in a random order after Byne.

Oh, unless someone would've won my bet I had with some of our more tough adversaries and I had to fulfill my promised "reward", which I hope people have no memories of.

Posted Image

Oh, and you clearly belong on that list AND I will totally used it on page 2000, no one can stop me!

Modifié par lex0r11, 01 mai 2012 - 03:33 .


#47832
shepskisaac

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HellishFiend wrote...
Almost everything you mentioned change the 3 existing endings.

No it doesn't.

HellishFiend wrote...
"fixing the plot hole" of the Normandy's escape/crash landing requires changing existing events.

Such as adding a scene where squadmates get told to go to Normandy and do domething somwhere which is why it's where we see it and most of the problem gets fixed?

HellishFiend wrote...
Adding dialog to the starchild scene requires changing existing dialogs.

But not changing the intention.

HellishFiend wrote...
Those are both things that Bioware has outright said they will not do. 

Bioware never said they won't change/modify dialogues to add new ones. They said "no new endings", as in no new pink-coloured option during Catalyst conversation to turn Reapers into ice-creams

#47833
HellishFiend

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llbountyhunter wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

can I try one last time? ok this is based on in-game evidence.

not unified= reapers win battle
unfied= we win battle
indoctrination= nobody gets unified.

this is all stuff we see with our own eyes- not making anything up here,


I think that unification gives the allied forces a chance to find *a way* to beat the Reapers. I will never be convinced that conventional warfare can become that means to total victory. Again you're using the word battle in a context where the only word that applies is "war". The allied forces are absolutely capable of winning battles, but I simply dont think that conventional victory in the war is a possibility, given all the circumstances. 


a war is the cumilation many battles- the battle of the sword is a critical one, the majority of the reapers are there (I think the prothean VI said this... not 100% sure though). in this case this battle=war... (although this doesnt mean I still dont see the bigger picture)




In any case, we're definitely going to have to agree to disagree. I take issue with the very fundamentals and premises behind your argument, so there is no way you can use those fundamentals and premises to form a logical process that will convince me. 

I dont think there is sufficient evidence or precedent portrayed in any existing mass effect content that suggests winning a war against the Reapers conventionally is a viable possibility. You do. It's simply a difference of opinion at this point...

#47834
Arian Dynas

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lex0r11 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

[...]

No worries man, you deserve it. Going back form page 1911 I put every poster, as well as everyone from 1-5. I need help to do more of course.

Also, placement on the list (with the exception of byne.) does not indicate importance, but higher on the list DOES mean you are more regular here. And no, if you are above someone on the list it probably means I randomly shoved you into a roughly corresponding area to your regularity, not that you actually visit more often than the people on the list.

Oh, and the only poster whom I haven't added from those pages I listed, is me. I leave it to all of you to decide where I fit in.


I shouldn't have written that, came out wrong. Naturally, everything should be in a random order after Byne.

Oh, unless someone would've won my bet I had with some of our more tough adversaries and I had to fulfill my promised "reward", which I hope people have no memories of.

Posted Image



YOUR ETERNAL REWARD!

Nah, but you do deserve the spot, for all you do.

#47835
Aethgeir

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Sorry guys, but Indoctrination Theory fails for one very simple reason:

If people can’t tell a key element of the plot from bad writing, then guess what? IT’S BAD WRITING!

#47836
balance5050

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Such stupid posts concerning "bad writing", must... resist... reply...

#47837
HellishFiend

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balance5050 wrote...

Such stupid posts concerning "bad writing", must... resist... reply...


You are betraying your own sig, sir. 

#47838
lex0r11

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Arian Dynas wrote...

YOUR ETERNAL REWARD!

Nah, but you do deserve the spot, for all you do.


Oh, and you clearly belong on that list AND I will so used it on page 2000, no one can stop me!

*diabolic laughter*

#47839
llbountyhunter

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HellishFiend wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

can I try one last time? ok this is based on in-game evidence.

not unified= reapers win battle
unfied= we win battle
indoctrination= nobody gets unified.

this is all stuff we see with our own eyes- not making anything up here,


I think that unification gives the allied forces a chance to find *a way* to beat the Reapers. I will never be convinced that conventional warfare can become that means to total victory. Again you're using the word battle in a context where the only word that applies is "war". The allied forces are absolutely capable of winning battles, but I simply dont think that conventional victory in the war is a possibility, given all the circumstances. 


a war is the cumilation many battles- the battle of the sword is a critical one, the majority of the reapers are there (I think the prothean VI said this... not 100% sure though). in this case this battle=war... (although this doesnt mean I still dont see the bigger picture)




In any case, we're definitely going to have to agree to disagree. I take issue with the very fundamentals and premises behind your argument, so there is no way you can use those fundamentals and premises to form a logical process that will convince me. 

I dont think there is sufficient evidence or precedent portrayed in any existing mass effect content that suggests winning a war against the Reapers conventionally is a viable possibility. You do. It's simply a difference of opinion at this point...



way to sound so condecending..... not even true..... i present facts, you present beliefs.

geeze just admit that you cant grasp my intellectual superiority. 

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 01 mai 2012 - 03:38 .


#47840
lex0r11

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Aethgeir wrote...

Sorry guys, but Indoctrination Theory fails for one very simple reason:

If people can’t tell a key element of the plot from bad writing, then guess what? IT’S BAD WRITING!


For visual support.

Posted Image

#47841
balance5050

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HellishFiend wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Such stupid posts concerning "bad writing", must... resist... reply...


You are betraying your own sig, sir. 


You're very right, I've always been better at giving advice than following it.

#47842
balance5050

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llbountyhunter wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

can I try one last time? ok this is based on in-game evidence.

not unified= reapers win battle
unfied= we win battle
indoctrination= nobody gets unified.

this is all stuff we see with our own eyes- not making anything up here,


I think that unification gives the allied forces a chance to find *a way* to beat the Reapers. I will never be convinced that conventional warfare can become that means to total victory. Again you're using the word battle in a context where the only word that applies is "war". The allied forces are absolutely capable of winning battles, but I simply dont think that conventional victory in the war is a possibility, given all the circumstances. 


a war is the cumilation many battles- the battle of the sword is a critical one, the majority of the reapers are there (I think the prothean VI said this... not 100% sure though). in this case this battle=war... (although this doesnt mean I still dont see the bigger picture)




In any case, we're definitely going to have to agree to disagree. I take issue with the very fundamentals and premises behind your argument, so there is no way you can use those fundamentals and premises to form a logical process that will convince me. 

I dont think there is sufficient evidence or precedent portrayed in any existing mass effect content that suggests winning a war against the Reapers conventionally is a viable possibility. You do. It's simply a difference of opinion at this point...



way to sound so condecending..... geeze just admit that you cant grasp my intellectual superiority. 


C'mon guys, point that condescension at people who deserve it.

#47843
HellishFiend

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llbountyhunter wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

In any case, we're definitely going to have to agree to disagree. I take issue with the very fundamentals and premises behind your argument, so there is no way you can use those fundamentals and premises to form a logical process that will convince me. 

I dont think there is sufficient evidence or precedent portrayed in any existing mass effect content that suggests winning a war against the Reapers conventionally is a viable possibility. You do. It's simply a difference of opinion at this point...



way to sound so condecending..... geeze just admit that you cant grasp my intellectual superiority. 


I'm going to assume you're joking with that one. But really, I said one or two pages ago already that we should just agree to disagree, and you wanted to keep going. So I felt I needed to clarify why I can't be convinced at this point. If you're offended by that, well, you essentially asked for it. I respect your opinion well enough, I just dont agree with it. 

#47844
llbountyhunter

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HellishFiend wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

In any case, we're definitely going to have to agree to disagree. I take issue with the very fundamentals and premises behind your argument, so there is no way you can use those fundamentals and premises to form a logical process that will convince me. 

I dont think there is sufficient evidence or precedent portrayed in any existing mass effect content that suggests winning a war against the Reapers conventionally is a viable possibility. You do. It's simply a difference of opinion at this point...



way to sound so condecending..... geeze just admit that you cant grasp my intellectual superiority. 


I'm going to assume you're joking with that one. But really, I said one or two pages ago already that we should just agree to disagree, and you wanted to keep going. So I felt I needed to clarify why I can't be convinced at this point. If you're offended by that, well, you essentially asked for it. I respect your opinion well enough, I just dont agree with it. 


I was half-joking, but c'mon in what region does "you just dont manage to look at the bigger picture like I do"(not true btw) NOT sound condesending? maybe its a cultural thing? I forgive you.

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 01 mai 2012 - 03:43 .


#47845
Arian Dynas

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balance5050 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Such stupid posts concerning "bad writing", must... resist... reply...


You are betraying your own sig, sir. 


You're very right, I've always been better at giving advice than following it.


Lol, that's what used to be in MY sig.

#47846
HellishFiend

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llbountyhunter wrote...


I was half-joking, but c'mon in what region does "you just dont manage to look at the bigger picture like I do" NOT sound condesending? maybe its a cultural thing? I forgive you.


I didnt say that! You're paraphrasing with the specific intent of making me look like a jerk. How else could I have worded it so as not to sound "condescending"? Jeez, I tried simply saying I disagree, but that wasnt enough for you. I tried explaining my position, and when it became apparent we couldnt convince each other, I tried to disengage. You didnt want to disengage, so I tried explaining why I wanted to disengage. What else am I supposed to do? Continue the argument even though I dont want to? Ignore you? How is either of those better?

#47847
Big Bad

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Hey, I'm on that list! When do we get our official IT badges and decoder rings?

Also, WRT the EC DLC - As far as I'm concerned, any ending that doesn't explain what happens to Shepard after she takes that breath is automatically classified as a Grade "A" ****ty ending, regardless of what else is included. If they don't pay off the "breath moment," then they might as well be spending their valuable time and resources doing something completely different.

#47848
llbountyhunter

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HellishFiend wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...


I was half-joking, but c'mon in what region does "you just dont manage to look at the bigger picture like I do" NOT sound condesending? maybe its a cultural thing? I forgive you.


I didnt say that! You're paraphrasing with the specific intent of making me look like a jerk. How else could I have worded it so as not to sound "condescending"? Jeez, I tried simply saying I disagree, but that wasnt enough for you. I tried explaining my position, and when it became apparent we couldnt convince each other, I tried to disengage. You didnt want to disengage, so I tried explaining why I wanted to disengage. What else am I supposed to do? Continue the argument even though I dont want to? Ignore you? How is either of those better?



something along the lines of, "well I disagree because I do not feel that enough evidence has been put forth in order for me to agree with your brilliant and well crafted theory.... " would of sufficed.

lol, jk, but yeah I shouldve stopped earlier...... my bad. 

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 01 mai 2012 - 03:52 .


#47849
HellishFiend

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llbountyhunter wrote...


something along the lines of, "well I disagree because I do not feel that enough evidence has been put forth in order for me to agree with your brilliant and well crafted theory.... " would of suficed.

lol, jk, but yeah I shouldve stopped earlier...... my bad. 


No worries. Even though we disagree, it's still good to be able to bounce ideas and concepts.

#47850
BatmanTurian

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Aethgeir wrote...

Sorry guys, but Indoctrination Theory fails for one very simple reason:

If people can’t tell a key element of the plot from bad writing, then guess what? IT’S BAD WRITING!


Not to feed the troll, but this, my friends, is a Literalist.