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[HellishFiend]

There is little doubt in my mind that there is a flipped mako/transport in the breath scene, so yeah, I do think that. Not sure if we can actually derive whether it is the same one we see earlier in the ending though.

What really confuses me about the breath scene is the staggering amount of debris and concrete surrounding Shepard. During the run, Shepard gets hit (or nearly hit, rather) by the beam in an area surrounded mostly by dirt.

[ZIPO396]

iggy1eco wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

I think he is just trying to bring some levity into the topic. No reason to get on his case, IMO.

"Your levity is good, it relieves tension and the fear of death."

Terminator quote? =p

EDIT:Ignore this. Internet glitch made me post twice =/

It might be.

Why ignore it. The first signs of Skynet take over have begun.

[Arian Dynas]

Arian Dynas wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

It seems I am older in treachery than I thought.

I think I have found what may have been my first post here on the IDT thread...

on page 299.

Damn I feel like an old man.

Arian Dynas wrote...

Jesus H Christ...

It just occurred to me.

What if this theory is absolutely correct...

And Bioware, not wanting to risk another leak of their ending has chosen instead to make it to where the ending is not part of the original game... until a patch comes in when it is available in every region?

Think about it, they radically changed the game from the leaked scripts, why didn't they change things when THE ENDING VIDEOS themselves were leaked? Why did they give a statement saying "yup, those are pretty much it."

Otherwise, why the silence, if they aren't planning something? Why the fact that they have barely let out any info, beyond cryptic hints of "Just wait and see, can't comment yet."

It might be wishful thinking, but right now, I believe that Bioware has the entire ending all set up and ready... to be released in a patch when the game itself has reached maximum saturation.

It's like a magic show, the magician seems competent up until the end, when suddenly he starts failing, badly, and then, at the last moment, to the entire audience's suprise, he pulls off his biggest trick yet, to roaring applause.

It certainly makes sense. A lot more sense than that far fetched conspiracy theory that Bioware is stupid

Lol, this is one of my FAAAAAAR older theories, I've got a better one sitting around here somewhere, when I'm done with this take home test I'll find it for you.

Here, far newer and more relevant theory for you Spotless,

Arian Dynas wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...


The ANN is running off it's own timeline, concurrent with real world time, theing is in their timeline we have yet to reach the point of the Seige of Earth. I'm willing to bet there'll be more multiplayer events between now and then, more multiplayer expansion packs, both free and paid, representing major turning points in the war, until finally, things culminate with the release of the EC, revealing Indoctrination and the final seige of Earth, with DLC released between then and now being major battles and plot points, like the retaking of Omega.

Basically, I am saying Bioware developed their entire DLC release schedule around a story plot, so they could drag out the game over the course of the year, making sure no one forgot it, but the problem is that the ending that was supposed to keep us happy and content for a few months didn't leaving their plans entirely ****ed up, and them a bit upset and insulted that we weren't happy, so they have to move up the EC, either moving up the Seige of Earth DLC, or giving us the EC to make things more obvious so we're more content to wait for the war to run it's course.

I dont think Bioware will ever charge for the multiplayer expansion packs. They make their money off people buying the reinforcement packs. When new free expansion packs are released, people spend more money buying reinforcement packs to have chances to unlock the new content. 

Hmm, thinking about it, I agree,

And considering this is Bioware, whom is all about the story, and ALL about doing awesome things with big gambles, (see what I did there?) and considering they actually WORKED story into the Multiplayer itself, via the N7 missions and Resurgence, and already happen to be doing the whole ANN thing, And really, it would have been an awesome, incredible stunt had it worked from the get go.

 

[Arian Dynas]

HellishFiend wrote...

There is little doubt in my mind that there is a flipped mako/transport in the breath scene, so yeah, I do think that. Not sure if we can actually derive whether it is the same one we see earlier in the ending though.

What really confuses me about the breath scene is the staggering amount of debris and concrete surrounding Shepard. During the run, Shepard gets hit (or nearly hit, rather) by the beam in an area surrounded mostly by dirt.

Look at the promotional image, there's Reaper cables and concrete aplenty.

And also consider, Hallucination does not necessarily preclude movement (read my recent re-write of the ending script for an example.)

[HellishFiend]

Arian Dynas wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

There is little doubt in my mind that there is a flipped mako/transport in the breath scene, so yeah, I do think that. Not sure if we can actually derive whether it is the same one we see earlier in the ending though.

What really confuses me about the breath scene is the staggering amount of debris and concrete surrounding Shepard. During the run, Shepard gets hit (or nearly hit, rather) by the beam in an area surrounded mostly by dirt.

Look at the promotional image, there's Reaper cables and concrete aplenty.

And also consider, Hallucination does not necessarily preclude movement (read my recent re-write of the ending script for an example.)

Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying that it is nearly questionable enough for me to doubt the breath scene being a strong indicator towards IT. I'm just saying that's what I find most questionable about it.

[Arian Dynas]

HellishFiend wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

There is little doubt in my mind that there is a flipped mako/transport in the breath scene, so yeah, I do think that. Not sure if we can actually derive whether it is the same one we see earlier in the ending though.

What really confuses me about the breath scene is the staggering amount of debris and concrete surrounding Shepard. During the run, Shepard gets hit (or nearly hit, rather) by the beam in an area surrounded mostly by dirt.

Look at the promotional image, there's Reaper cables and concrete aplenty.

And also consider, Hallucination does not necessarily preclude movement (read my recent re-write of the ending script for an example.)

Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying that it is nearly questionable enough for me to doubt the breath scene being a strong indicator towards IT. I'm just saying that's what I find most questionable about it.

And I'm saying, no need to bother, we got it worked out.

[Hawk227]

HellishFiend wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

There is little doubt in my mind that there is a flipped mako/transport in the breath scene, so yeah, I do think that. Not sure if we can actually derive whether it is the same one we see earlier in the ending though.

What really confuses me about the breath scene is the staggering amount of debris and concrete surrounding Shepard. During the run, Shepard gets hit (or nearly hit, rather) by the beam in an area surrounded mostly by dirt.

Look at the promotional image, there's Reaper cables and concrete aplenty.

And also consider, Hallucination does not necessarily preclude movement (read my recent re-write of the ending script for an example.)

Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying that it is nearly questionable enough for me to doubt the breath scene being a strong indicator towards IT. I'm just saying that's what I find most questionable about it.

I think if we're shown a flipped transport in the vicinity of shepard in that scene, it helps a lot.

The reapers bulldozed that entire area. It's flattened rubble. I imagine Harbinger's beam kicking up a lot of lightly buried debris and partially burying shepard in it with the mako just out of view. But that shiny arched piece in the background doesn't quite fit with that. It doesn't preclude it, but it's questionable, as you say.

EDIT: which promotional image?

Modifié par Hawk227, 01 mai 2012 - 08:47 .

[Dude_in_the_Room]

Changed my mind.

Modifié par Dude_in_the_Room, 01 mai 2012 - 09:12 .

[HellishFiend]

Changing the subject a bit, I've actually decided to alter my interpretation of the ending a bit. I used to think the entire thing from the get-go (harbinger's beam) was reaper influence/indoctrination, but now I'm convinced that the major reaper influence/indoctrination attempt doesnt start until the elevator.

I came to that conclusion because I'm starting to think that the second of the two grunts you hear when you shoot Anderson is actually TIM. It would explain why its the same grunt even when you're playing femshep. That would indicate to me that both Anderson and TIM are equally a part of Shepard, as opposed to TIM being all or mostly controlled by outside forces.

Obviously there is some indoctrination that is taking place throughout the entire game, and I think everything in between harbinger's beam and the elevator is just a continuation of that. It's the "slow, patient indoctrination" mentioned in the codex. When that fails (or is taking too long to work), Harbinger decides to step in and begin a "rapid indoctrination" attempt, starting with the elevator scene. I think that when Shepard passes out at the control panel, he is actually about to wake up from his dream, but instead Harbinger steps in and begins the starbrat sequence.

Thoughts?

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Arian Dynas wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

There is little doubt in my mind that there is a flipped mako/transport in the breath scene, so yeah, I do think that. Not sure if we can actually derive whether it is the same one we see earlier in the ending though.

What really confuses me about the breath scene is the staggering amount of debris and concrete surrounding Shepard. During the run, Shepard gets hit (or nearly hit, rather) by the beam in an area surrounded mostly by dirt.

Look at the promotional image, there's Reaper cables and concrete aplenty.

And also consider, Hallucination does not necessarily preclude movement (read my recent re-write of the ending script for an example.)

Ok, question, where in the beam run do can you  see Reaper cables? (I'm positive it's Reaper cable and NOT rebar, it's too tech-like, in the breath scene). I haven't been able to remember any before the Citadel dark corridor....are there cables on the beam itself? Must be, it's Reaper tech and that's like their thing they do with tech they throw cables about it.

[Hawk227]

HellishFiend wrote...

Changing the subject a bit, I've actually decided to alter my interpretation of the ending a bit. I used to think the entire thing from the get-go (harbinger's beam) was reaper influence/indoctrination, but now I'm convinced that the major reaper influence/indoctrination attempt doesnt start until the elevator.

I came to that conclusion because I'm starting to think that the second of the two grunts you hear when you shoot Anderson is actually TIM. It would explain why its the same grunt even when you're playing femshep. That would indicate to me that both Anderson and TIM are equally a part of Shepard, as opposed to TIM being all or mostly controlled by outside forces.

Obviously there is some indoctrination that is taking place throughout the entire game, and I think everything in between harbinger's beam and the elevator is just a continuation of that. It's the "slow, patient indoctrination" mentioned in the codex. When that fails (or is taking too long to work), Harbinger decides to step in and begin a "rapid indoctrination" attempt, starting with the elevator scene. I think that when Shepard passes out at the control panel, he is actually about to wake up from his dream, but instead Harbinger steps in and begins the starbrat sequence.

Thoughts?

The only real problem with that, is the breath scene. How does shepard then wake up in rubble? He would be waking up next to the console.

[Arian Dynas]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

There is little doubt in my mind that there is a flipped mako/transport in the breath scene, so yeah, I do think that. Not sure if we can actually derive whether it is the same one we see earlier in the ending though.

What really confuses me about the breath scene is the staggering amount of debris and concrete surrounding Shepard. During the run, Shepard gets hit (or nearly hit, rather) by the beam in an area surrounded mostly by dirt.

Look at the promotional image, there's Reaper cables and concrete aplenty.

And also consider, Hallucination does not necessarily preclude movement (read my recent re-write of the ending script for an example.)

Ok, question, where in the beam run do can you  see Reaper cables? (I'm positive it's Reaper cable and NOT rebar, it's too tech-like, in the breath scene). I haven't been able to remember any before the Citadel dark corridor....are there cables on the beam itself? Must be, it's Reaper tech and that's like their thing they do with tech they throw cables about it.

Never said in the beam run, it's shown in a peice of promotional art.

[ZIPO396]

Hawk227 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Changing the subject a bit, I've actually decided to alter my interpretation of the ending a bit. I used to think the entire thing from the get-go (harbinger's beam) was reaper influence/indoctrination, but now I'm convinced that the major reaper influence/indoctrination attempt doesnt start until the elevator.

I came to that conclusion because I'm starting to think that the second of the two grunts you hear when you shoot Anderson is actually TIM. It would explain why its the same grunt even when you're playing femshep. That would indicate to me that both Anderson and TIM are equally a part of Shepard, as opposed to TIM being all or mostly controlled by outside forces.

Obviously there is some indoctrination that is taking place throughout the entire game, and I think everything in between harbinger's beam and the elevator is just a continuation of that. It's the "slow, patient indoctrination" mentioned in the codex. When that fails (or is taking too long to work), Harbinger decides to step in and begin a "rapid indoctrination" attempt, starting with the elevator scene. I think that when Shepard passes out at the control panel, he is actually about to wake up from his dream, but instead Harbinger steps in and begins the starbrat sequence.

Thoughts?

The only real problem with that, is the breath scene. How does shepard then wake up in rubble? He would be waking up next to the console.

Because the place exploded now it's looser bit are rubble?

[Hawk227]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Ok, question, where in the beam run do can you  see Reaper cables? (I'm positive it's Reaper cable and NOT rebar, it's too tech-like, in the breath scene). I haven't been able to remember any before the Citadel dark corridor....are there cables on the beam itself? Must be, it's Reaper tech and that's like their thing they do with tech they throw cables about it.

I don't think you do see them.

My interpretation (others seem resistant to it) is that the cables are symbolic. Shepard never had his N7 tags either. The breath scene is the "tell" to the player about what happened. You see rubble and a mako, you know its london. You see N7 tags you know its Shepard. The next most conspicous object (read: therefore significant) is that cable. We've seen those cables repeatedly in situations associated with Indoctrination. The rachni queen is surrounded by them. Legion is hooked up to a bunch of them. We're supposed to associate those cables with indoctrination the way we associate those dog tags with shepard.

So the scene is telling us that Shepard woke up in london after overcoming an indoctrination attempt.

[Arian Dynas]

Hawk227 wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Ok, question, where in the beam run do can you  see Reaper cables? (I'm positive it's Reaper cable and NOT rebar, it's too tech-like, in the breath scene). I haven't been able to remember any before the Citadel dark corridor....are there cables on the beam itself? Must be, it's Reaper tech and that's like their thing they do with tech they throw cables about it.

I don't think you do see them.

My interpretation (others seem resistant to it) is that the cables are symbolic. Shepard never had his N7 tags either. The breath scene is the "tell" to the player about what happened. You see rubble and a mako, you know its london. You see N7 tags you know its Shepard. The next most conspicous object (read: therefore significant) is that cable. We've seen those cables repeatedly in situations associated with Indoctrination. The rachni queen is surrounded by them. Legion is hooked up to a bunch of them. We're supposed to associate those cables with indoctrination the way we associate those dog tags with shepard.

So the scene is telling us that Shepard woke up in london after overcoming an indoctrination attempt.

Actually, the breath scene could be one of two things.

Literal and meant to be as is, which there are no porblems with, because going by the promotional art of Hammer looked down the valley into the beam, you see Reaper Cables and broken concrete. And it's a not unreasonable assumption to make that Shepard, being a soldier and therefore required to, wearing his tags.

Or symbolic, and meant to be a placeholder until the final battle DLC that swaps it for an in engine cutscene where we see Shep wake up.

[HellishFiend]

Hawk227 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Changing the subject a bit, I've actually decided to alter my interpretation of the ending a bit. I used to think the entire thing from the get-go (harbinger's beam) was reaper influence/indoctrination, but now I'm convinced that the major reaper influence/indoctrination attempt doesnt start until the elevator.

I came to that conclusion because I'm starting to think that the second of the two grunts you hear when you shoot Anderson is actually TIM. It would explain why its the same grunt even when you're playing femshep. That would indicate to me that both Anderson and TIM are equally a part of Shepard, as opposed to TIM being all or mostly controlled by outside forces.

Obviously there is some indoctrination that is taking place throughout the entire game, and I think everything in between harbinger's beam and the elevator is just a continuation of that. It's the "slow, patient indoctrination" mentioned in the codex. When that fails (or is taking too long to work), Harbinger decides to step in and begin a "rapid indoctrination" attempt, starting with the elevator scene. I think that when Shepard passes out at the control panel, he is actually about to wake up from his dream, but instead Harbinger steps in and begins the starbrat sequence.

Thoughts?

The only real problem with that, is the breath scene. How does shepard then wake up in rubble? He would be waking up next to the console.

Sorry, to clarify, I didnt mean to imply that the part between harby's beam and the elevator was actually happening in reality, but rather that it was happening in Shepard's head but without direct intervention from Harbinger. 

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Adjustment: Where between seeing the Beam as Harbinger arrives and before you walk into the beam do you see Reaper cable? Just name a spot I'll believe and double check.

[Arian Dynas]

Hmm... question. Whom here agrees that the EC will likely be just a number of cutscenes to improve closure on a few things now, making indoctrination more obvious for those who missed it, and then capping off with a "To be continued in the Siege of Earth DLC, Follow the War effort on the ANN and join your recruiter today! Fight the good fight, the Galaxy is at War."

And if so, what do you think the fallout would be? Would you be satisfied to wait if IDT was confirmed and it meant a DLC that is basically an expansion pack worth of gameplay? Would you still play and buy single player DLC?

I would, but I'm curious to some of the reactions.

[gunslinger_ruiz]

HellishFiend wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Changing the subject a bit, I've actually decided to alter my interpretation of the ending a bit. I used to think the entire thing from the get-go (harbinger's beam) was reaper influence/indoctrination, but now I'm convinced that the major reaper influence/indoctrination attempt doesnt start until the elevator.

I came to that conclusion because I'm starting to think that the second of the two grunts you hear when you shoot Anderson is actually TIM. It would explain why its the same grunt even when you're playing femshep. That would indicate to me that both Anderson and TIM are equally a part of Shepard, as opposed to TIM being all or mostly controlled by outside forces.

Obviously there is some indoctrination that is taking place throughout the entire game, and I think everything in between harbinger's beam and the elevator is just a continuation of that. It's the "slow, patient indoctrination" mentioned in the codex. When that fails (or is taking too long to work), Harbinger decides to step in and begin a "rapid indoctrination" attempt, starting with the elevator scene. I think that when Shepard passes out at the control panel, he is actually about to wake up from his dream, but instead Harbinger steps in and begins the starbrat sequence.

Thoughts?

The only real problem with that, is the breath scene. How does shepard then wake up in rubble? He would be waking up next to the console.

Sorry, to clarify, I didnt mean to imply that the part between harby's beam and the elevator was actually happening in reality, but rather that it was happening in Shepard's head but without direct intervention from Harbinger. 

I'm a believer in various points of Indoctrination and potential points where the hallucination actually begins. Since Shepard wakes up in London rubble I'm inclined to believe the hallucination either starts After you kill Maurauder Shields and stumble towards the beam OR immediatley after being Harbinger'd.

To Clarify: Shot by Marauder > Kill Marauder > Hallucination begins before stepping into the beam
OR
Shot by Harbinger > Hallucination begins.

As for varying stages of Indoctrination, I think it's possible that The Illusive Man is initially indoctrinating you and the hallucination is begun by him, but regardless of your reputation level and your dialogue choices you fight it off (killing him/making him kill himself) with your will damaged but alive, however the Reapers take over the attempt from that point, and the Catalyst scene begins.

[HellishFiend]

I'll be quite perturbed if the EC doesnt contain the full ending. Several months is quite long enough to wait for a "complete" start-to-finish single player experience, thank you very much....

[HellishFiend]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

I'm a believer in various points of Indoctrination and potential points where the hallucination actually begins. Since Shepard wakes up in London rubble I'm inclined to believe the hallucination either starts After you kill Maurauder Shields and stumble towards the beam OR immediatley after being Harbinger'd.

To Clarify: Shot by Marauder > Kill Marauder > Hallucination begins before stepping into the beam
OR
Shot by Harbinger > Hallucination begins.

As for varying stages of Indoctrination, I think it's possible that The Illusive Man is initially indoctrinating you and the hallucination is begun by him, but regardless of your reputation level and your dialogue choices you fight it off (killing him/making him kill himself) with your will damaged but alive, however the Reapers take over the attempt from that point, and the Catalyst scene begins.

Using your method of outlining, my thinking is this:

Shot by Harbinger > Hallucinaation/dream begins (all in Shepard's head/subtle indoc) > Elevator scene > Rapid Indoctrination begins (controlled by Harbinger)

[Arian Dynas]

HellishFiend wrote...

I'll be quite perturbed if the EC doesnt contain the full ending. Several months is quite long enough to wait for a "complete" start-to-finish single player experience, thank you very much....

And what if it comes out within the month and they promise gameplay in a DLC?

Or would not having a conclusive ending in the EC be a dealbreaker?

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Hmm... question. Whom here agrees that the EC will likely be just a number of cutscenes to improve closure on a few things now, making indoctrination more obvious for those who missed it, and then capping off with a "To be continued in the Siege of Earth DLC, Follow the War effort on the ANN and join your recruiter today! Fight the good fight, the Galaxy is at War."

And if so, what do you think the fallout would be? Would you be satisfied to wait if IDT was confirmed and it meant a DLC that is basically an expansion pack worth of gameplay? Would you still play and buy single player DLC?

I would, but I'm curious to some of the reactions.

Honestly I think they should have just added "TO BE CONCLUDED" in a patch spelled out across the screen after the breath scene if that's the case. The fallout's probably going to be the same in any event, fans asking "WTF HAPPENS NEXT? IS IT FREE?!?" others shouting "I knew it!" into their monitors. I'm sure there will be pockets of disgruntled fans that will either wait until Bioware sends them an "I'm sorry" card or they'll continue "giving up on Bioware games forever." I'm hopeful that some of those fans/ex-fans will come back into the Bioware fold though, we probably won't hear much from them if they do but at least they'll be back gaming.

Of course it could end horribly with gamers hanging Bioware up as an example of what not to do for future generations of developers. But here's to being optimistic!

[HellishFiend]

Arian Dynas wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

I'll be quite perturbed if the EC doesnt contain the full ending. Several months is quite long enough to wait for a "complete" start-to-finish single player experience, thank you very much....

And what if it comes out within the month and they promise gameplay in a DLC?

Or would not having a conclusive ending in the EC be a dealbreaker?

Well, right now I am OK with the fact that we have an incomplete game because of this unique experience we have going on here. Getting to investigate and figure things out as if it were a mystery is a meta-game in and of itself. However, if the EC comes out (3+ months after the game was released) and still does not wrap up the experience to make it into a complete game, that is going too far. 

Where do you draw the line after that? That could be a slippery slope towards something along the lines of "You pay $60 for a partial game and entitlement to x years/months of follow up content through DLC"

[BleedingUranium]

Sorry for asking something completely unrelated, but since this is the place where people who pay attention are, does anyone know where else the following theme plays?


From 1:22 specifically, I know I've heard it somewhere that wasn't that room in the Cerberus Base, but I don't even know which game I heard it in. Anyone know?