57139 réponses à ce sujet

[liggy002]

Hawk227 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Changing the subject a bit, I've actually decided to alter my interpretation of the ending a bit. I used to think the entire thing from the get-go (harbinger's beam) was reaper influence/indoctrination, but now I'm convinced that the major reaper influence/indoctrination attempt doesnt start until the elevator.

I came to that conclusion because I'm starting to think that the second of the two grunts you hear when you shoot Anderson is actually TIM. It would explain why its the same grunt even when you're playing femshep. That would indicate to me that both Anderson and TIM are equally a part of Shepard, as opposed to TIM being all or mostly controlled by outside forces.

Obviously there is some indoctrination that is taking place throughout the entire game, and I think everything in between harbinger's beam and the elevator is just a continuation of that. It's the "slow, patient indoctrination" mentioned in the codex. When that fails (or is taking too long to work), Harbinger decides to step in and begin a "rapid indoctrination" attempt, starting with the elevator scene. I think that when Shepard passes out at the control panel, he is actually about to wake up from his dream, but instead Harbinger steps in and begins the starbrat sequence.

Thoughts?

The only real problem with that, is the breath scene. How does shepard then wake up in rubble? He would be waking up next to the console.

Also, Shep's squad abandoning him doesn't make any sense either.  Where are thier bodies?  I don't see them anywhere.

[SS2Dante]

So I actually decided to be mature and stay away from this thread to prep for an exam, did I miss anything?

[Kyzee]

liggy002 wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Changing the subject a bit, I've actually decided to alter my interpretation of the ending a bit. I used to think the entire thing from the get-go (harbinger's beam) was reaper influence/indoctrination, but now I'm convinced that the major reaper influence/indoctrination attempt doesnt start until the elevator.

I came to that conclusion because I'm starting to think that the second of the two grunts you hear when you shoot Anderson is actually TIM. It would explain why its the same grunt even when you're playing femshep. That would indicate to me that both Anderson and TIM are equally a part of Shepard, as opposed to TIM being all or mostly controlled by outside forces.

Obviously there is some indoctrination that is taking place throughout the entire game, and I think everything in between harbinger's beam and the elevator is just a continuation of that. It's the "slow, patient indoctrination" mentioned in the codex. When that fails (or is taking too long to work), Harbinger decides to step in and begin a "rapid indoctrination" attempt, starting with the elevator scene. I think that when Shepard passes out at the control panel, he is actually about to wake up from his dream, but instead Harbinger steps in and begins the starbrat sequence.

Thoughts?

The only real problem with that, is the breath scene. How does shepard then wake up in rubble? He would be waking up next to the console.

Also, Shep's squad abandoning him doesn't make any sense either.  Where are thier bodies?  I don't see them anywhere.

Their bodies could be buried under rubble as well. Keep in mind that the point of the breath scene is just to show that Shepard's alive and leave the circumstances mysterious. If your squadmates bodies were shown, then it'd be obvious that the entire previous sequence was all in Shepard's mind, thus no "speculation for all!"

@Arian Dynas: Hm . . . I consider myself an Indoctrinationist, but given my love of debate and picking apart evidence will probably get me labeled a Indoctrinationist Cynic. Oh well, it's your list; I'll see what you decide.

In the meantime, I'll just go with "Resident Mother." 

[lex0r11]

Resident Mom Kyzee, knocking heads together in here since ME3 release.

[liggy002]

Kyzee wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Changing the subject a bit, I've actually decided to alter my interpretation of the ending a bit. I used to think the entire thing from the get-go (harbinger's beam) was reaper influence/indoctrination, but now I'm convinced that the major reaper influence/indoctrination attempt doesnt start until the elevator.

I came to that conclusion because I'm starting to think that the second of the two grunts you hear when you shoot Anderson is actually TIM. It would explain why its the same grunt even when you're playing femshep. That would indicate to me that both Anderson and TIM are equally a part of Shepard, as opposed to TIM being all or mostly controlled by outside forces.

Obviously there is some indoctrination that is taking place throughout the entire game, and I think everything in between harbinger's beam and the elevator is just a continuation of that. It's the "slow, patient indoctrination" mentioned in the codex. When that fails (or is taking too long to work), Harbinger decides to step in and begin a "rapid indoctrination" attempt, starting with the elevator scene. I think that when Shepard passes out at the control panel, he is actually about to wake up from his dream, but instead Harbinger steps in and begins the starbrat sequence.

Thoughts?

The only real problem with that, is the breath scene. How does shepard then wake up in rubble? He would be waking up next to the console.

Also, Shep's squad abandoning him doesn't make any sense either.  Where are thier bodies?  I don't see them anywhere.

Their bodies could be buried under rubble as well. Keep in mind that the point of the breath scene is just to show that Shepard's alive and leave the circumstances mysterious. If your squadmates bodies were shown, then it'd be obvious that the entire previous sequence was all in Shepard's mind, thus no "speculation for all!"

@Arian Dynas: Hm . . . I consider myself an Indoctrinationist, but given my love of debate and picking apart evidence will probably get me labeled a Indoctrinationist Cynic. Oh well, it's your list; I'll see what you decide.

In the meantime, I'll just go with "Resident Mother." 

No, I mean right after you get hit by the beam and Shepard is limping around.  You don't see his squadmates bodies.  That is really odd. 

Also, somebody pointed this out, supposedly when you are talking to Garrus about the boy on the Normandy... we see another Danger sign pop up (the one on the ship gun or battery apparently).  Could anyone confirm this with a picture?

[Rosewind]

liggy002 wrote...

Kyzee wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Changing the subject a bit, I've actually decided to alter my interpretation of the ending a bit. I used to think the entire thing from the get-go (harbinger's beam) was reaper influence/indoctrination, but now I'm convinced that the major reaper influence/indoctrination attempt doesnt start until the elevator.

I came to that conclusion because I'm starting to think that the second of the two grunts you hear when you shoot Anderson is actually TIM. It would explain why its the same grunt even when you're playing femshep. That would indicate to me that both Anderson and TIM are equally a part of Shepard, as opposed to TIM being all or mostly controlled by outside forces.

Obviously there is some indoctrination that is taking place throughout the entire game, and I think everything in between harbinger's beam and the elevator is just a continuation of that. It's the "slow, patient indoctrination" mentioned in the codex. When that fails (or is taking too long to work), Harbinger decides to step in and begin a "rapid indoctrination" attempt, starting with the elevator scene. I think that when Shepard passes out at the control panel, he is actually about to wake up from his dream, but instead Harbinger steps in and begins the starbrat sequence.

Thoughts?

The only real problem with that, is the breath scene. How does shepard then wake up in rubble? He would be waking up next to the console.

Also, Shep's squad abandoning him doesn't make any sense either.  Where are thier bodies?  I don't see them anywhere.

Their bodies could be buried under rubble as well. Keep in mind that the point of the breath scene is just to show that Shepard's alive and leave the circumstances mysterious. If your squadmates bodies were shown, then it'd be obvious that the entire previous sequence was all in Shepard's mind, thus no "speculation for all!"

@Arian Dynas: Hm . . . I consider myself an Indoctrinationist, but given my love of debate and picking apart evidence will probably get me labeled a Indoctrinationist Cynic. Oh well, it's your list; I'll see what you decide.

In the meantime, I'll just go with "Resident Mother." 

No, I mean right after you get hit by the beam and Shepard is limping around.  You don't see his squadmates bodies.  That is really odd. 

Also, somebody pointed this out, supposedly when you are talking to Garrus about the boy on the Normandy... we see another Danger sign pop up (the one on the ship gun or battery apparently).  Could anyone confirm this with a picture?

Apprantly you see their bodies with low ems, not to sure about ths though.

[Kyzee]

liggy002 wrote...

Kyzee wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Changing the subject a bit, I've actually decided to alter my interpretation of the ending a bit. I used to think the entire thing from the get-go (harbinger's beam) was reaper influence/indoctrination, but now I'm convinced that the major reaper influence/indoctrination attempt doesnt start until the elevator.

I came to that conclusion because I'm starting to think that the second of the two grunts you hear when you shoot Anderson is actually TIM. It would explain why its the same grunt even when you're playing femshep. That would indicate to me that both Anderson and TIM are equally a part of Shepard, as opposed to TIM being all or mostly controlled by outside forces.

Obviously there is some indoctrination that is taking place throughout the entire game, and I think everything in between harbinger's beam and the elevator is just a continuation of that. It's the "slow, patient indoctrination" mentioned in the codex. When that fails (or is taking too long to work), Harbinger decides to step in and begin a "rapid indoctrination" attempt, starting with the elevator scene. I think that when Shepard passes out at the control panel, he is actually about to wake up from his dream, but instead Harbinger steps in and begins the starbrat sequence.

Thoughts?

The only real problem with that, is the breath scene. How does shepard then wake up in rubble? He would be waking up next to the console.

Also, Shep's squad abandoning him doesn't make any sense either.  Where are thier bodies?  I don't see them anywhere.

Their bodies could be buried under rubble as well. Keep in mind that the point of the breath scene is just to show that Shepard's alive and leave the circumstances mysterious. If your squadmates bodies were shown, then it'd be obvious that the entire previous sequence was all in Shepard's mind, thus no "speculation for all!"

@Arian Dynas: Hm . . . I consider myself an Indoctrinationist, but given my love of debate and picking apart evidence will probably get me labeled a Indoctrinationist Cynic. Oh well, it's your list; I'll see what you decide.

In the meantime, I'll just go with "Resident Mother." 

No, I mean right after you get hit by the beam and Shepard is limping around.  You don't see his squadmates bodies.  That is really odd. 

Also, somebody pointed this out, supposedly when you are talking to Garrus about the boy on the Normandy... we see another Danger sign pop up (the one on the ship gun or battery apparently).  Could anyone confirm this with a picture?

Ah, gotcha. Well, that just lends credence to IDT, doesn't it? 

[Kyzee]

lex0r11 wrote...

Resident Mom Kyzee, knocking heads together in here since ME3 release.

LOL! Love it! Oh, if I had Photoshop, I'd so have fun with that! 

[blooregard]

Rosewind wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

Kyzee wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Changing the subject a bit, I've actually decided to alter my interpretation of the ending a bit. I used to think the entire thing from the get-go (harbinger's beam) was reaper influence/indoctrination, but now I'm convinced that the major reaper influence/indoctrination attempt doesnt start until the elevator.

I came to that conclusion because I'm starting to think that the second of the two grunts you hear when you shoot Anderson is actually TIM. It would explain why its the same grunt even when you're playing femshep. That would indicate to me that both Anderson and TIM are equally a part of Shepard, as opposed to TIM being all or mostly controlled by outside forces.

Obviously there is some indoctrination that is taking place throughout the entire game, and I think everything in between harbinger's beam and the elevator is just a continuation of that. It's the "slow, patient indoctrination" mentioned in the codex. When that fails (or is taking too long to work), Harbinger decides to step in and begin a "rapid indoctrination" attempt, starting with the elevator scene. I think that when Shepard passes out at the control panel, he is actually about to wake up from his dream, but instead Harbinger steps in and begins the starbrat sequence.

Thoughts?

The only real problem with that, is the breath scene. How does shepard then wake up in rubble? He would be waking up next to the console.

Also, Shep's squad abandoning him doesn't make any sense either.  Where are thier bodies?  I don't see them anywhere.

Their bodies could be buried under rubble as well. Keep in mind that the point of the breath scene is just to show that Shepard's alive and leave the circumstances mysterious. If your squadmates bodies were shown, then it'd be obvious that the entire previous sequence was all in Shepard's mind, thus no "speculation for all!"

@Arian Dynas: Hm . . . I consider myself an Indoctrinationist, but given my love of debate and picking apart evidence will probably get me labeled a Indoctrinationist Cynic. Oh well, it's your list; I'll see what you decide.

In the meantime, I'll just go with "Resident Mother." 

No, I mean right after you get hit by the beam and Shepard is limping around.  You don't see his squadmates bodies.  That is really odd. 

Also, somebody pointed this out, supposedly when you are talking to Garrus about the boy on the Normandy... we see another Danger sign pop up (the one on the ship gun or battery apparently).  Could anyone confirm this with a picture?

Apprantly you see their bodies with low ems, not to sure about ths though.

I think I saw a picture of this where your squadmates are dead on the ground I can't think if it was way earlier on in this thread or somewhere in "So we can't get the ending we want after all?" but I recall seeing a picture where a Turian (Garrus) was dead near Ashley/Tali but I haven't seen that picture or anything like that one in a long time.

[MadRabbit999]

I am glad this thread has returned to be a bit more civil and with a bit more "stability", a few hundreds pages back it was totally out of control, like something out of the Life of Brian.. people would go nuts at the most dumb of signs...

Just change the words "The Messiah!" with "Indoctrination!"

[Tirian Thorn]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

I am glad this thread has returned to be a bit more civil and with a bit more "stability", a few hundreds pages back it was totally out of control, like something out of the Life of Brian.. people would go nuts at the most dumb of signs...

Just change the words "The Messiah!" with "Indoctrination!"

It's the Judean People's Front! 

[MegumiAzusa]

Hmm just tested the "The Crucible has been destroyed." thing... time doesn't matter at all, I had the game running all the time I was sleeping and nothing happened, then walked up to a choice, turned around, walked a bit and bam, destroyed.

[SS2Dante]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Hmm just tested the "The Crucible has been destroyed." thing... time doesn't matter at all, I had the game running all the time I was sleeping and nothing happened, then walked up to a choice, turned around, walked a bit and bam, destroyed.

Yeah, it's really bizarre, the only thing that causes it is reaching the top of one of the platforms then turning back.

[MegumiAzusa]

xsdob wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Why would the Reapers close the Citadel, which is virtually impossible to get into, but then connect a transport beam to it, and only defend it with a single Destroyer? And Harbinger gets there so late that at least Shepard survives, maybe more. Seems a lot like a trap to me

Wasn't that the whole point of the mission, go to a beam to get the Citadel? Or is that a figment of your imagination due to indoctrination? Is the whole Earth mission fiction then?

How does one preclude the other?

Your still in the rubble of alliance command in canada. Anderson's calling your name and your choice will dictate whether object rho has succesfully indoctrinated you or not.

You do black out there, no one knows how long.

[Icinix]

SS2Dante wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Hmm just tested the "The Crucible has been destroyed." thing... time doesn't matter at all, I had the game running all the time I was sleeping and nothing happened, then walked up to a choice, turned around, walked a bit and bam, destroyed.

Yeah, it's really bizarre, the only thing that causes it is reaching the top of one of the platforms then turning back.

Its just a trigger after you move. Once you take your first step the game has a timer. Until then the timer doesn't start.
Although it is interesting when you reload after letting it blow up, the starchild is gone.

[blooregard]

xsdob wrote...

Your still in the rubble of alliance command in canada. Anderson's calling your name and your choice will dictate whether object rho has succesfully indoctrinated you or not.

So you black out in Canada in the beginning and the ENTIRE thing is a hallucination? Even the times where you're sleeping and dream...inception.

[Big G13]

Well apparently, all of this good conversation isn't going to help me much. I just turned on my xbox after two weeks and now it won't read my USB stick. Spent an hour trying all the basic tricks to no avail. Two years + of ME game play is just gone. No response necessary, just wanted to vent to people who would understand. Thanks.

[Icinix]

Big G13 wrote...

Well apparently, all of this good conversation isn't going to help me much. I just turned on my xbox after two weeks and now it won't read my USB stick. Spent an hour trying all the basic tricks to no avail. Two years + of ME game play is just gone. No response necessary, just wanted to vent to people who would understand. Thanks.

I've lost the occasional save game before through system upgrades and the like, but never lost the lot of them That sucks big time.

[MegumiAzusa]

Yay for cloud storage.

[llbountyhunter]

when does IT start? Before or after the run?

I mentioned before that I now think it happens before- right after the shuttle crash. That scene is so abrupt, one moment there driving normally, the next there running down a blurry incline toward a beam. (This could also explain the pesense of the trees before getting hit) it is also the first time we see Anderson's gun.

Also I think we mentally envisioned harby, although he was somewhere nearby. Like maybe Shepard knew something was wrong and mentally added harby to give him a solid enemy. Opinions? I really recommend watching that scene again.

[Icinix]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Yay for cloud storage.

I'd rather burn my own hard-drives and USB's than use cloud storage <_<

Personal opinion mind you, I can get why some people would like it.

[fr33stylez]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

The problem I'll always have with the IT is the weakest part of the theory involves WHEN Shepard tactually became indoctrinated. I'm in the belief that there's nothing really in the game to suggest he's ever in close proximity with a Reaper long enough to become indoctrinated. Even if he were, he wouldn't be the only one indoctrinated.

There is a lot of speculation and information on this topic. One of the most prevalent theories is that Shepard's indoctrionation started during his exposure to Object Rho in Arrival. This is supported by the fact that the Arrival DLC was made in the same time frame that Bioware was putting together Mass Effect 3. If they felt they needed a more tangible story element to suggest that Shepard was about to undergo some form of indoctrination attempt, they sure managed to work a strong one into Arrival. 

If a player didn't do the Arrival DLC, then all of the time spent in the Collector Base and the time spent on the derelict reaper, all of the times spent around Harbinger-possessed Collectors, and all of the times Shepard interacted with Sovereign (all the way back to Eden Prime) counts as a gentle 3-year indoctrination similar to what Seren experienced before he caved to Synthesis.

But morever, it doesn't make as much sense as Rho, and to be honest, that jives pretty well with their track record of explaining certain things for n00bs

Oh, I agree. It's just that n00bs may not have played Arrival so you have to satisfy those inevitable nitpickers who will say " Well, my shepard didn't do Arrival. So my Shepard can't be in the process of being indoctrinated" *sigh*

First I'd like to say I find the Indoctrination Theory very intriguing. I also think pople who have developed the IT have spent more time than BW bother to with their endings. Bottom line, my opinion is that the IT tries its best to make sense of a garbled and poor communicated ending.

My understanding of Indoctrinaion throughout the trilogy is that there is evidence of a progression in the individual being indoctrinated. It is true we must reject Object Rho from Arrival (BW's fault), beause this 'indoctrination' occurs in ME3 even if Shepard never came into contact with Object Rho. I also haven't seen any characters in ME that were indoctrinated due to 'acute' exposure to Reaper/Reaper artifacts. Shepard talking to the VI in Vimire, or fighting Collectors wouldn't qualify in my opinon as constant exposure, as I don't even see how these two things can lead to indoctrination. 

1) If Shepard is the only member of his crew that was expericing indoctrination, one would expect there would be clues in the things Shepard says in the course of the game which would suggest Shepard having

1a) If the argument is we couldn't see these subtle changes in Shepard's beliefs because we are in his perspective (technically that's not true, it's third-person) one could still wonder why none of the dozen people on your ship that familiar with indoctrination since ME1 didn'tnotice anything.

2) If fighting Collectors, being in a Collector base, talking to Soverign on Vimire, going on the Derelict Reaper is enough to cause Indoctrination, there is no reason why others on your team (Tali, Garrus, etc.) wouldn't have suffered the same fate.

So my problem lies that there is no evidence of the progression of indoctrination in Shepard's thoughts and beliefs in the trilogy preceding the ending. If anything, they get stronger during the course of the series.

Modifié par fr33stylez, 01 mai 2012 - 02:53 .

[Tirian Thorn]

Big G13 wrote...

Well apparently, all of this good conversation isn't going to help me much. I just turned on my xbox after two weeks and now it won't read my USB stick. Spent an hour trying all the basic tricks to no avail. Two years + of ME game play is just gone. No response necessary, just wanted to vent to people who would understand. Thanks.

On the PS2 I once had an entire storage cartridge erased because of a faulty demo disk.    Infuriating to say the least! 

Now I do 99% of my gaming on my PC.  I still play a few games on the PS1 or PS2 with my kids, but that's really it.  Or if I'm at a friend's house who has a console system. 

[Tirian Thorn]

Icinix wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Yay for cloud storage.

I'd rather burn my own hard-drives and USB's than use cloud storage <_<

Personal opinion mind you, I can get why some people would like it.

Yeah.  I too like to keep my data stored on disks, externals or USB drives.  I have a 1TB external, a 16GB flash and a 32GB flash. 

And my computer has 2 320GB hard drives. 

[MegumiAzusa]

Oh and for the ones not knowing where the hydra missile launcher can be found at the "last" objective: