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[Tirian Thorn]

UrgedDuke wrote...

no comments in over an hour? wow we aren't holding the line

[DJBare]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Speaking of the Virmire survivor, I had had a theory once about that after playing through ME2. If you recall during the attack on Horizon, Kaiden/Ashely is stung by one of the drones and put in some kind of stasis. But despite this they somehow avoided capture. I thought at first the Collectors didn't have enough time with Shepard arriving but the Collector General walked over them or at least near them, I can't remember at the moment, but I kept on thinking "If they didn't escape, why would the Collector's leave them behind?"

I'd almost forgetten about that, the VS are prime candidates for infiltration if indoctrinated.

Just a thought, but does anyone know when Vega heard the hum, was it before or after the VS rejoined the Normandy? and does Vega mention the hum if you don't allow the VS to join you?

[Tirian Thorn]

NoSpin wrote...

UrgedDuke wrote...

no comments in over an hour? wow we aren't holding the line

You can only speculate so much with the limited things we have. It's basically a waiting game now.

That and the constant having to shoot down Merizan tweets every 20 pages.

That got old really fast. 

Jessica is great and all, but I do not put any stock in her tweets - regardless if they seem in favor of IT or against. 

[Tirian Thorn]

DJBare wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Speaking of the Virmire survivor, I had had a theory once about that after playing through ME2. If you recall during the attack on Horizon, Kaiden/Ashely is stung by one of the drones and put in some kind of stasis. But despite this they somehow avoided capture. I thought at first the Collectors didn't have enough time with Shepard arriving but the Collector General walked over them or at least near them, I can't remember at the moment, but I kept on thinking "If they didn't escape, why would the Collector's leave them behind?"

I'd almost forgetten about that, the VS are prime candidates for infiltration if indoctrinated.

Just a thought, but does anyone know when Vega heard the hum, was it before or after the VS rejoined the Normandy? and does Vega mention the hum if you don't allow the VS to join you?

That is pretty interesting.
I would discount solely based on the prothean VI on Thessia. Kai Leng was fully indoctrinated and VI recognized that. If anyone else were to be that far along I would think the VI could detect that. 
Of course, nothing is certain with the VI as we know so little about it, but it is a program and should behave consistently and scan everyone. 

[DJBare]

Tirian Thorn wrote...

DJBare wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Speaking of the Virmire survivor, I had had a theory once about that after playing through ME2. If you recall during the attack on Horizon, Kaiden/Ashely is stung by one of the drones and put in some kind of stasis. But despite this they somehow avoided capture. I thought at first the Collectors didn't have enough time with Shepard arriving but the Collector General walked over them or at least near them, I can't remember at the moment, but I kept on thinking "If they didn't escape, why would the Collector's leave them behind?"

I'd almost forgetten about that, the VS are prime candidates for infiltration if indoctrinated.

Just a thought, but does anyone know when Vega heard the hum, was it before or after the VS rejoined the Normandy? and does Vega mention the hum if you don't allow the VS to join you?

That is pretty interesting.
I would discount solely based on the prothean VI on Thessia. Kai Leng was fully indoctrinated and VI recognized that. If anyone else were to be that far along I would think the VI could detect that. 
Of course, nothing is certain with the VI as we know so little about it, but it is a program and should behave consistently and scan everyone. 

True the VI does pose a problem with the idea, but I'd question the sensitivity of it's detection software, the VI on Ilos could hardly miss Saren's indoctrination and Kai Leng is heavily modified with Reaper tech.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

DJBare wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...

DJBare wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Speaking of the Virmire survivor, I had had a theory once about that after playing through ME2. If you recall during the attack on Horizon, Kaiden/Ashely is stung by one of the drones and put in some kind of stasis. But despite this they somehow avoided capture. I thought at first the Collectors didn't have enough time with Shepard arriving but the Collector General walked over them or at least near them, I can't remember at the moment, but I kept on thinking "If they didn't escape, why would the Collector's leave them behind?"

I'd almost forgetten about that, the VS are prime candidates for infiltration if indoctrinated.

Just a thought, but does anyone know when Vega heard the hum, was it before or after the VS rejoined the Normandy? and does Vega mention the hum if you don't allow the VS to join you?

That is pretty interesting.
I would discount solely based on the prothean VI on Thessia. Kai Leng was fully indoctrinated and VI recognized that. If anyone else were to be that far along I would think the VI could detect that. 
Of course, nothing is certain with the VI as we know so little about it, but it is a program and should behave consistently and scan everyone. 

True the VI does pose a problem with the idea, but I'd question the sensitivity of it's detection software, the VI on Ilos could hardly miss Saren's indoctrination and Kai Leng is heavily modified with Reaper tech.

By the time of Ilos Saren had also recieved extensive Reaper implants.

And has been said a billion times allready there is difference between in the process of beeing indoctrinated and actually Indoctrinated...and unless the Protheans were stupid and dident have widespread use of the Indoctrination detection software in the middle fo a reaper invasion, those VI could not even detect indoctrinated sleeper agents <_<

What then even makes us consider the possibility that it could detect someone who is only in the process of the Indoctrination?

[Rosewind]

Every time I hear about Saren;s reaper implants I always imagine a human husk in a lab coat as the doctor lol.

[Tirian Thorn]

DJBare wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...

DJBare wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Speaking of the Virmire survivor, I had had a theory once about that after playing through ME2. If you recall during the attack on Horizon, Kaiden/Ashely is stung by one of the drones and put in some kind of stasis. But despite this they somehow avoided capture. I thought at first the Collectors didn't have enough time with Shepard arriving but the Collector General walked over them or at least near them, I can't remember at the moment, but I kept on thinking "If they didn't escape, why would the Collector's leave them behind?"

I'd almost forgetten about that, the VS are prime candidates for infiltration if indoctrinated.

Just a thought, but does anyone know when Vega heard the hum, was it before or after the VS rejoined the Normandy? and does Vega mention the hum if you don't allow the VS to join you?

That is pretty interesting.
I would discount solely based on the prothean VI on Thessia. Kai Leng was fully indoctrinated and VI recognized that. If anyone else were to be that far along I would think the VI could detect that. 
Of course, nothing is certain with the VI as we know so little about it, but it is a program and should behave consistently and scan everyone. 

True the VI does pose a problem with the idea, but I'd question the sensitivity of it's detection software, the VI on Ilos could hardly miss Saren's indoctrination and Kai Leng is heavily modified with Reaper tech.

Ultimately with IT; if proven true, it is going to come down to less than 10 major plot points. There isn’t going to be a 5 minute explanation of how it all fit together. If memory serves, in KOTOR, Bastilla summed up the plot twist in less than 1 min and highlighted about 5 different sentences/instances that confirmed what she said. 

This would be a much larger plot twist than Bioware did in KOTOR, but I think they’re going to keep it simple. I don’t think the trees, or the music, or sound effects would be part of their explanation.  

I think they would highlight the following:

1)       Control & Synthesis were ideas put forth by indoctrinated antagonists. (TIM & Saren) Why would you believe they were ever right?


2)      Anderson gets shot, while Shepard is the one clutching and grabbing his side


3)      Harbinger can easily target others and instantly vaporizes them, but the blast hits in front of Shepard – which only wounds, instead of killing. 


4)      The Reapers has said time and time again that their purpose is unfathomable to organics. They said they have no beginning and no end. Yet the Star Kid sums up their purpose simply and says it’s his plan, making the reapers part of his plan. Plus the idiocy of the plan. We don’t want organics whipped out by synthetics, so we’re going to use synthetics to kill you, but not all of you. Why not just kill the other synthetics instead? 


5)      TIM is able to control both Shepard and Anderson? How? The reapers have never shown that kind of influence over someone who wasn’t indoctrinated. How could TIM use reaper-tech better than the reapers?


6)      The Star-Kid says the Citadel is part of it. Well, if that’s the case, then how were the Protheans able to sabotage the Citadel so the reapers couldn’t jump directly there from Dark Space. The Star-Kid should have been able to correct for that which totally invalidates ME1. 


7)      When Shepard chooses Control or Synthesis his/her eyes change to become like TIM’s. 

Modifié par Tirian Thorn, 02 mai 2012 - 02:02 .

[Mordred_Moridin]

Ok, I was playing through the original ME again and noticed something. I am sure this has already been brought up (I just can't read through over 1000 pages to find it), but the Thorian... First, we never actually see it die. Second, it kinda looks like an organic reaper. Third, the asari you talk to after that encounter says that the Thorian lived for "50k years, maybe more" which is about how long the cycle between reapings is. Also it absorbed the knowledge of the prothean people, doesn't that sound like what the reapers do? And there is the tie in to Cerberus earlier in the mission indicating that ExoGeni was there studying the Thorian at the behest of Cerberus.

Just some things I noticed and thought I would bring up/ask about while it was fresh in my mind.

[Unschuld]

DJBare wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Speaking of the Virmire survivor, I had had a theory once about that after playing through ME2. If you recall during the attack on Horizon, Kaiden/Ashely is stung by one of the drones and put in some kind of stasis. But despite this they somehow avoided capture. I thought at first the Collectors didn't have enough time with Shepard arriving but the Collector General walked over them or at least near them, I can't remember at the moment, but I kept on thinking "If they didn't escape, why would the Collector's leave them behind?"

I'd almost forgetten about that, the VS are prime candidates for infiltration if indoctrinated.

Just a thought, but does anyone know when Vega heard the hum, was it before or after the VS rejoined the Normandy? and does Vega mention the hum if you don't allow the VS to join you?

Interesting note: wasn't Virmire Survivor (same sex) flagged under "ME2 failure" parameters in one of the leaked scripts? Don't know if that means anything for IT, or if it even ended up being a valid inclusion to the final game but... Speculations?!?!? I mean, why would it be flagged as a bad thing for the ME3 ending?

[Unschuld]

Tirian Thorn wrote...


6)      The Star-Kid says the Citadel is part of it. Well, if that’s the case, then how were the Protheans able to sabotage the Citadel so the reapers couldn’t jump directly there from Dark Space. The Star-Kid should have been able to correct for that which totally invalidates ME1. 

This. So much. 

If that wasn't a tip off, I don't know what is. If that hole was unintentionally created, that's a case of monumental unfathomable stupidity by the writers. I refuse to accept that the ME writers could be blind enough to miss something like this, which is something I wouldn't even expect from a grade school fanfic writer. 

Was it his nap time? Why wouldn't catalyst kid "wake up" and dial R-E-A-P-E-R-S on his proverbial phone when some meddling organics started molesting the keepers? Does he really sleep that soundly?

Unfathomable. 

Modifié par Unschuld, 02 mai 2012 - 02:31 .

[Segameister]

Gernbuster wrote...

I am waiting as well ^^
I won't let this thread go down.
HOLD THE LINE!
IT for win

I'm NOT holding the line for the Indoctrination theory - it's as bad as what they did do.

[NeoDobby]

DJBare wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Speaking of the Virmire survivor, I had had a theory once about that after playing through ME2. If you recall during the attack on Horizon, Kaiden/Ashely is stung by one of the drones and put in some kind of stasis. But despite this they somehow avoided capture. I thought at first the Collectors didn't have enough time with Shepard arriving but the Collector General walked over them or at least near them, I can't remember at the moment, but I kept on thinking "If they didn't escape, why would the Collector's leave them behind?"

I'd almost forgetten about that, the VS are prime candidates for infiltration if indoctrinated.

Just a thought, but does anyone know when Vega heard the hum, was it before or after the VS rejoined the Normandy? and does Vega mention the hum if you don't allow the VS to join you?

I only had one playthrough, but as far as I remember, Vega heard the hum on multiple occasions during the game. Probably at least once between all of the (later?) priority missions. Don't know when exactly it started, but I think it was fairly early...

Mordred_Moridin wrote...

Ok, I was playing through the
original ME again and noticed something. I am sure this has already been
brought up (I just can't read through over 1000 pages to find it), but
the Thorian... First, we never actually see it die. Second, it kinda
looks like an organic reaper. Third, the asari you talk to after that
encounter says that the Thorian lived for "50k years, maybe more" which
is about how long the cycle between reapings is. Also it absorbed the
knowledge of the prothean people, doesn't that sound like what the
reapers do? And there is the tie in to Cerberus earlier in the mission
indicating that ExoGeni was there studying the Thorian at the behest of
Cerberus.

Just some things I noticed and thought I would bring up/ask about while it was fresh in my mind.

I always thought it was possible that the Thorian was one of the races the Reapers harvested, and that's how they learned indoctrination. I think Cerberus was interested in how indoctrination works - just as Saren was.

But what are you trying to say? What could be the implications if the Thorian was still alive?

(unrelated: "Believe me I am still alive" *sing*)

[llbountyhunter]

Mordred_Moridin wrote...

Ok, I was playing through the original ME again and noticed something. I am sure this has already been brought up (I just can't read through over 1000 pages to find it), but the Thorian... First, we never actually see it die. Second, it kinda looks like an organic reaper. Third, the asari you talk to after that encounter says that the Thorian lived for "50k years, maybe more" which is about how long the cycle between reapings is. Also it absorbed the knowledge of the prothean people, doesn't that sound like what the reapers do? And there is the tie in to Cerberus earlier in the mission indicating that ExoGeni was there studying the Thorian at the behest of Cerberus.

Just some things I noticed and thought I would bring up/ask about while it was fresh in my mind.

im pretty sure it dead, the colonists pulled out its remains.
http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Thorian 

however its still pretty interesting, and I always thought there might be some sort of link between the thorian(s) and the reapers.

I like how the thorian refers to itself as "the old growth" and the reapers are "the old machines"


edit: what if???? (i know Ive said this before) the thorians created the reapers accidentally, like the quarinas and geth?

the reapers also follow a similar pattern of hidernating for thousands of years like the thorian...

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 02 mai 2012 - 02:50 .

[Mordred_Moridin]

It was just something I noticed and wondered if anyone else had brought up the similarities. Or if maybe it fit into the IT in some way and someone else could detail the connections better than I can right now.

[Arashi08]

xsdob wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Merizan also said the Normandy crashed on Earth so...

I'd be interested to see the tweet

I dont use tweeter, just saw it somewhere here. I'm sure someone else can dig it out

Ah, the old reliable 'I saw it somewhere' witness, always a good sign of validity.

All joking aside I do not belive merizan is truly the most trustworthy of sources for what is or is not continuity, espically where the ending is concerned.

I heard on this forum that the tweet actually said she believed the Normandy landed somewhere in the Sol System, not any specific planet.  But I haven't seen that tweet myself so don't take what I say at face value either.

[blooregard]

For those of us who haven't noticed this yet.

www.reddit.com/r/Indoctrinated/comments/t1rtj/a_major_it_breakthrough/

[Dwailing]

blooregard wrote...

For those of us who haven't noticed this yet.

www.reddit.com/r/Indoctrinated/comments/t1rtj/a_major_it_breakthrough/

I think I had looked at this before, but I didn't read it fully.  Now, I'm starting to think that he's right.  There are two major characters introduced in the end.  Star-Brat (ReaperBieber) and Coats.  And we already know not to trust one.  Maybe we shouldn't trust the other either.

[SubAstris]

Unschuld wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...


6)      The Star-Kid says the Citadel is part of it. Well, if that’s the case, then how were the Protheans able to sabotage the Citadel so the reapers couldn’t jump directly there from Dark Space. The Star-Kid should have been able to correct for that which totally invalidates ME1. 

This. So much. 

If that wasn't a tip off, I don't know what is. If that hole was unintentionally created, that's a case of monumental unfathomable stupidity by the writers. I refuse to accept that the ME writers could be blind enough to miss something like this, which is something I wouldn't even expect from a grade school fanfic writer. 

Was it his nap time? Why wouldn't catalyst kid "wake up" and dial R-E-A-P-E-R-S on his proverbial phone when some meddling organics started molesting the keepers? Does he really sleep that soundly?

Unfathomable. 

We don't know the exact qualities of the Catalyst, its capabilities. It could be that he is shackled somewhat and unable to change the signal. That is what happens when you introduce a new important character very late in the game.

And don't forget BW have made mistakes... What's the actual point of ME2 in terms of plot?

[Tirian Thorn]

blooregard wrote...

For those of us who haven't noticed this yet.

www.reddit.com/r/Indoctrinated/comments/t1rtj/a_major_it_breakthrough/

Saw it.  I definately enjoyed it. 

I didn't look at Coates in that light until reading that but I always thought his assessment of Shepard and his/her influence on the resistance, etc. as spot on. 

Harbinger clearly took a special interest in Shepard after Soverign's defeat.  Harbinger - through the Collectors) tried to acquire Shepard's body.  An indoctrinated Shepard would completely disrupt the alliance military as well as the galactic fleets. 

[Dwailing]

SubAstris wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...


6)      The Star-Kid says the Citadel is part of it. Well, if that’s the case, then how were the Protheans able to sabotage the Citadel so the reapers couldn’t jump directly there from Dark Space. The Star-Kid should have been able to correct for that which totally invalidates ME1. 

This. So much. 

If that wasn't a tip off, I don't know what is. If that hole was unintentionally created, that's a case of monumental unfathomable stupidity by the writers. I refuse to accept that the ME writers could be blind enough to miss something like this, which is something I wouldn't even expect from a grade school fanfic writer. 

Was it his nap time? Why wouldn't catalyst kid "wake up" and dial R-E-A-P-E-R-S on his proverbial phone when some meddling organics started molesting the keepers? Does he really sleep that soundly?

Unfathomable. 

We don't know the exact qualities of the Catalyst, its capabilities. It could be that he is shackled somewhat and unable to change the signal. That is what happens when you introduce a new important character very late in the game.

And don't forget BW have made mistakes... What's the actual point of ME2 in terms of plot?

Wait a minute, are you saying that you don't like ME2? 

Modifié par Dwailing, 02 mai 2012 - 03:46 .

[NeoDobby]

llbountyhunter wrote...

im pretty sure it dead, the colonists pulled out its remains.
http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Thorian 

however its still pretty interesting, and I always thought there might be some sort of link between the thorian(s) and the reapers.

I like how the thorian refers to itself as "the old growth" and the reapers are "the old machines"


edit: what if???? (i know Ive said this before) the thorians created the reapers accidentally, like the quarinas and geth?

the reapers also follow a similar pattern of hidernating for thousands of years like the thorian...

You know, I just looked at the screenshot of the Thorian there



and thought: "I've seen that face before." Yes, there is always a similarity to Dr. Zoidberg, but after a bit of thinking, I remembered...



The Ood are a race in Doctor Who. They communicate with telepathy and need some kind of extension to communicate with races that use sound. In this case, it's the orbs they are holding.

Then I thought about the Rachni...



What is it with face-tentacles and Telepathy/Mind control?

[blooregard]

Dwailing wrote...

blooregard wrote...

For those of us who haven't noticed this yet.

www.reddit.com/r/Indoctrinated/comments/t1rtj/a_major_it_breakthrough/

I think I had looked at this before, but I didn't read it fully.  Now, I'm starting to think that he's right.  There are two major characters introduced in the end.  Star-Brat (ReaperBieber) and Coats.  And we already know not to trust one.  Maybe we shouldn't trust the other either.

Oh my god...starbrat's new name is ReaperBieber. +5 to you.



My only problem with this theory is that it relies on shep actually getting to the citadel but if he gets to the citadel where he then passes out where's he lying in the destroy ending? 

Modifié par blooregard, 02 mai 2012 - 03:52 .

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

Here is the tweet by Jessica Merizan about the Citadel not being totally destroyed:




https://twitter.com/...036896298762241


She claims that they explained this at PAX which saddens me.  I will say, however, that this doesn't necessarily mean anything.

There are 2 possibilites:

1.  Bioware is lying to us about this.
2. The ending really is the real deal (hell no!)

It is a lie because they can't be "prescriptive" of the ending. Every thing they are talking about would give away what is in the EC. They have to explain the faux ending in order to not be prescriptive about the *real* ending.

So if she had come out and had said "Shep was on Earth all the time" and Weekes said that "no one whatsoever survived on the Citadel", are you genuinely saying that you would not believe this strong evidence for IT?

[Dwailing]

blooregard wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

blooregard wrote...

For those of us who haven't noticed this yet.

www.reddit.com/r/Indoctrinated/comments/t1rtj/a_major_it_breakthrough/

I think I had looked at this before, but I didn't read it fully.  Now, I'm starting to think that he's right.  There are two major characters introduced in the end.  Star-Brat (ReaperBieber) and Coats.  And we already know not to trust one.  Maybe we shouldn't trust the other either.

Oh my god...starbrat's new name is ReaperBieber. +5 to you.

Yeah, I heard that one a while back.  I think it actually came from a literalist, ironically enough.