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[Simon_Says]

balance5050 wrote...

Dark energy plot was so much better.

Except if ME tech generated this terrible dark energy, then what's the deal with the relays? (ie titanic ME engines with energy equivalents similar to stars)

@HYR 2.0

You obviously haven't even read the OP, seen Acavayos' video, or read Parabolee's article. Please do the research before discussing IT with us. Some of the info in those sources are either incomplete or outdated, but please, know what you're arguing against.

And quit arguing that it's ****ty writing. Either present your comprehensive evidence that this is the case or just accept that it's an assumption. One that IT explicitly does not accept.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 02 mai 2012 - 07:35 .

[Rosewind]

He He you to guys

[Drift Avalii]

Wow, 24 hours without Internet and I miss nearly 70 pages O.o

I had gotten as far as DJBare's excellent catch on the sounds of gunfire on the way up to the panel - I listened to that by the way and agree it sounds like vocals - and some arguing of semantics about the world 'literalist'... Have I missed anything else?

Also Arian, the rewrite of the endings is fantastic! I bow to your skills, good sir.

[byne]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

byne wrote...

So are you yet another 'Reapers cant be defeated conventionally' person?

 

Hell no they can't be defeated conventionally. In fact, the narrative foreshadows (there's those two words again!) this very clearly. That I can remember, Hackett and Liara say it straight-up.

Sovereign required the Citadel fleets, Alliance, and DA to successfully take it down (and they were just about decimiated afterward,). Estimates on total Reapers go in the thousands. So do you really believe that between the four council races and non-council support, you have enough strength to multiply the Citadel Fleet/Alliance/DA a thousand-fold??

Also remember, you don't even have the full strength of many of those fleets. Thessia fell and the asari lost a lot of their military, you can only get full krogan/salarian support in one circumstance and even then, the krogan have no warships in the battle and the salarians' full support is pretty laughable.

A conventional-victory ending would've made the Reapers a complete joke. It was never the plan, anyway. Hackett says from the beginning, the fleets are just an armada to defend the Crucible, which is the real key to stopping the Reapers. Conventionally, I think the strongest possible fleet will take out 10 Sovereign-class Reapers, AT BEST!

The codex flat out says four dreadnoughts - less if they have Thanix cannons installed - can take down a sovereign class Reaper, and a single cruiser, or even just a group of single person fighters can take down a destroyer.

The codex also says the asari were doing a fairly good job of killing the Reapers until they switched tactics and started bombarding Thessia, which was when the asari switched from offensively fighting them, to defending Thessia. That is when the asari fleet started to lose.

Earth is already basically complete rubble, no need to defend it from bombardment.

Why Sovereign was like a million times more powerful than the actual Reapers fought in ME3, and as described in the Codex, I dont know, but it was. Hell, even in the space battle, you see a Reaper get destroyed by like two ships.

The Reapers could be defeated conventionally, it really isnt as hard as people would have you believe. Your idea that the amassed fleet could only take out 10 Sovereign-class reapers at best is just silly.

[llbountyhunter]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

OR, there can be a good reason to leave it that does not mean bad writing. such as IT. either one is plausible.

If the Catalyst is lying, that just reinforces the notion that it's bad writing, because as an explanation it doesn't make sense. Because what does the Catalyst have to gain from lying about something so petty? (The answer is: nothing). It's a writer-fail, an even worse one if the explanation is "he's lying." 

THE CATALYST IS NOT REAL. the reapers are liying to make the other option sound more appealing. they have EVERYTHING to gain by lying to you.

[SubAstris]

Arian Dynas wrote...

 [

SubAstris wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...


6)      The Star-Kid says the Citadel is part of it. Well, if that’s the case, then how were the Protheans able to sabotage the Citadel so the reapers couldn’t jump directly there from Dark Space. The Star-Kid should have been able to correct for that which totally invalidates ME1. 

This. So much. 

If that wasn't a tip off, I don't know what is. If that hole was unintentionally created, that's a case of monumental unfathomable stupidity by the writers. I refuse to accept that the ME writers could be blind enough to miss something like this, which is something I wouldn't even expect from a grade school fanfic writer. 

Was it his nap time? Why wouldn't catalyst kid "wake up" and dial R-E-A-P-E-R-S on his proverbial phone when some meddling organics started molesting the keepers? Does he really sleep that soundly?

Unfathomable. 

We don't know the exact qualities of the Catalyst, its capabilities. It could be that he is shackled somewhat and unable to change the signal. That is what happens when you introduce a new important character very late in the game.

And don't forget BW have made mistakes... What's the actual point of ME2 in terms of plot?

Umm... EVERYTHING!?!

ME2 (which up until ME3 was my favorite so I may be baised) established new characters, new concepts, new locations, it established what had changed over the course of two years, as well as setting the timeline two years forward, It answered longstanding questions like "What happenend to the Protheans" you took out a major enemy base and cost them a huge quantity of resources, you killed the Human Form Reaper.and recovered the Reaper IFF, you had questions ABOUT the Reapers answered. They became considerably more terrifying.

Bioware ONLY makes mistakes about gameplay and rarely story, usually sacrificing gameplay for story. DA2 was a decent game that merely ended up being rushed, and they still sacrificed gameplay (copy and paste areas) for story.

I was talking specfically about plot. It did very little in terms of progressing it. You basically spent the whole going after a proxy enemy. I liked ME2 as a game, its plot though is poor

[Tirian Thorn]

SubAstris wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

It seems to be clear. The Catalyst's argument has good logical structure, the problem is that some of his premises, such as "synthetics will destroy all organics" are unsupported and contradict what has been established in the lore

Sovereign and other Reapers have asserted on numerous occasions that Shepard could not possibly comprehend the Reapers' existence and purpose.

Yet the Star-Child easily explains this supposedly difficult concept to Shepard in a matter of lines in a very simple and straight-forward manner.

Were the Reapers programmed to just spew nonsense if anyone ever spoke to them?
 
If so, why? It seems more likely that the explanation offered by the Child is not true.

I would like to say two things in response to that. Given the arrogance of the Reapers, the way in which they see organics as incapable beings, it is not surprising that Sovereign would say such a thing and it not being true. Just like most villains, he is committing hubris.

Secondly, it is difficult to pinpoint in what regards the concept is hard to understand. The fact that there is so much debate about this shows that the concept was difficult to get one's head around! But being serious, you might be able to understand what happens, but the scale of genocide throughout the ages and the time it has gone on for...
I don't think any human can really understand what that entails

Sub, that was great. Well thought-out and insightful. 

I will say this. The Star-Kid is still part of the” reaper faction” if you will.   I do not trust anything that kid says. 

Which is why I likewise I do not trust the Control or Synthesis options as they are ideas postulated by individuals known to be indoctrinated. 

From a roleplaying aspect I have characters that would accept those ideas. 

[Arian Dynas]

Ok, I've had QUITE enough of you.

@HYR 2.0 RESPECT MOTHER****ER, LEARN THE MEANING OF IT.

[estebanus]

balance5050 wrote...

Dark energy plot was so much better.

I don't think that the dark energy plot made much sense.
According to the plot, reapers harvest advanced species to make them into reapers in order to stop the flow of dark energy, because it could potentially destroy the universe.

That is the crux.

Our universe contains millions, if not trllions of different galaxies. It is incomprehensibly huge. How would stopping the production in one galaxy save the universe? Are we just to assume that there is no other advanced spacefaring life somewhere else in the galaxy? Saving one galaxy doesn't mean you save the universe!

That's just my thoughts on it, however.

[Simon_Says]

byne wrote...

Why Sovereign was like a million times more powerful than the actual Reapers fought in ME3, and as described in the Codex, I dont know, but it was. Hell, even in the space battle, you see a Reaper get destroyed by like two ships.

I recall someone in Bioware actually coming out and saying this was a mistake. Either that or maybe Sovereign was tougher than other reapers, and hence why it was chosen to be vanguard.

And remember that Sovy came with its own geth fleet to play with. That probably divided attention and firepower.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 02 mai 2012 - 07:42 .

[Rosewind]

I think the re-write needs a human husk in a lab coat and glasses giving reaper implant consultations ....... well that is what I see in my head every time I think of Saren getting reaper implants.

[Arian Dynas]

Drift Avalii wrote...

Wow, 24 hours without Internet and I miss nearly 70 pages O.o

I had gotten as far as DJBare's excellent catch on the sounds of gunfire on the way up to the panel - I listened to that by the way and agree it sounds like vocals - and some arguing of semantics about the world 'literalist'... Have I missed anything else?

Also Arian, the rewrite of the endings is fantastic! I bow to your skills, good sir.

Why thank you. May need to do it again soon though.


Also @Rosewind. Of course! We love our leading lady. Well leading when Ines isn't around, then you two have to share.

[llbountyhunter]

Simon_Says wrote...

byne wrote...

Why Sovereign was like a million times more powerful than the actual Reapers fought in ME3, and as described in the Codex, I dont know, but it was. Hell, even in the space battle, you see a Reaper get destroyed by like two ships.

I recall someone in Bioware actually coming out and saying this was a mistake. Either that or maybe Sovereign was tougher than other reapers, and hence why it was chosen to be vanguard.

actually the thanix missiles (or some other weapons, not sure which) were made by reverse enginering the sovering gun. so it makes sense.

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 02 mai 2012 - 07:43 .

[byne]

Simon_Says wrote...

byne wrote...

Why Sovereign was like a million times more powerful than the actual Reapers fought in ME3, and as described in the Codex, I dont know, but it was. Hell, even in the space battle, you see a Reaper get destroyed by like two ships.

I recall someone in Bioware actually coming out and saying this was a mistake. Either that or maybe Sovereign was tougher than other reapers, and hence why it was chosen to be vanguard.

What was a mistake? Sovereign being super strong or the entire ME3 codex?

[balance5050]

Simon_Says wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Dark energy plot was so much better.

Except if ME tech generated this terrible dark energy, then what's the deal with the relays? (ie titanic ME engines with energy equivalents similar to stars)

@HYR 2.0

You obviously haven't even read the OP, seen Acavayos' video, or read Parabolee's article. Please do the research before discussing IT with us. Some of the info in those sources are either incomplete or outdated, but please, know what you're arguing against.

And quit arguing that it's ****ty writing. Either present your comprehensive evidence that this is the case or just accept that it's an assumption. One that IT explicitly does not accept.

It doen't generate dark energy it manipulates it, dark energy is a real theory and scientist believe that in billions of years it will destroy the entire known universe.

The dark energy plot had the reapers essentially as a network of computers that attempted to solve the dark energy problem. Sheps choice would involve sacrificing humanity to try and save the universe or going with short term survival of humanity.

[His Name was HYR!!]

So hold on, where exactly does Shepard start becoming indoctrinated anyway?

[Arian Dynas]

Rosewind wrote...

I think the re-write needs a human husk in a lab coat and glasses giving reaper implant consultations ....... well that is what I see in my head every time I think of Saren getting reaper implants.

Lol, no I don't think so, but I'll see what I can do.

[Rosewind]

Simon_Says wrote...

byne wrote...

Why Sovereign was like a million times more powerful than the actual Reapers fought in ME3, and as described in the Codex, I dont know, but it was. Hell, even in the space battle, you see a Reaper get destroyed by like two ships.

I recall someone in Bioware actually coming out and saying this was a mistake. Either that or maybe Sovereign was tougher than other reapers, and hence why it was chosen to be vanguard.

Thought Sovereign was a type of Reaper, cause they say some the reapers were sovereign class ships at the ending events?

[Arian Dynas]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

So hold on, where exactly does Shepard start becoming indoctrinated anyway?

Derelict Reaper (HENCE WHY ME2 IS A NECESSARY PART OF THE PLOT SUBASTRIS.)

Reaper IFF doesn't help.

Object Rho acts as a booster.

[SS2Dante]

Simon_Says wrote...

byne wrote...

Why Sovereign was like a million times more powerful than the actual Reapers fought in ME3, and as described in the Codex, I dont know, but it was. Hell, even in the space battle, you see a Reaper get destroyed by like two ships.

I recall someone in Bioware actually coming out and saying this was a mistake. Either that or maybe Sovereign was tougher than other reapers, and hence why it was chosen to be vanguard.

And remember that Sovy came with its own geth fleet to play with. That probably divided attention and firepower.

Leading neatly to this

[byne]

Rosewind wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

byne wrote...

Why Sovereign was like a million times more powerful than the actual Reapers fought in ME3, and as described in the Codex, I dont know, but it was. Hell, even in the space battle, you see a Reaper get destroyed by like two ships.

I recall someone in Bioware actually coming out and saying this was a mistake. Either that or maybe Sovereign was tougher than other reapers, and hence why it was chosen to be vanguard.

Thought Sovereign was a type of Reaper, cause they say some the reapers were sovereign class ships at the ending events?

Thats just what they call the bigger non-Destroyer Reapers. Even Harby is technically Sovereign-class.

Just like they call every Alliance stealth frigate a Normandy-class ship.

[Rosewind]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

I think the re-write needs a human husk in a lab coat and glasses giving reaper implant consultations ....... well that is what I see in my head every time I think of Saren getting reaper implants.

Lol, no I don't think so, but I'll see what I can do.

He he dont have to but it's a really funny image in my head trust me, wish I could draw it would be the first Fan art I ever done for mass effect.

[Iconoclaste]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Ok, I've had QUITE enough of you.

@HYR 2.0 RESPECT MOTHER****ER, LEARN THE MEANING OF IT.

Where will this lead you?

[Arian Dynas]

Rosewind wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

byne wrote...

Why Sovereign was like a million times more powerful than the actual Reapers fought in ME3, and as described in the Codex, I dont know, but it was. Hell, even in the space battle, you see a Reaper get destroyed by like two ships.

I recall someone in Bioware actually coming out and saying this was a mistake. Either that or maybe Sovereign was tougher than other reapers, and hence why it was chosen to be vanguard.

Thought Sovereign was a type of Reaper, cause they say some the reapers were sovereign class ships at the ending events?

Because they resemble Soverign physically

[balance5050]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Ok, I've had QUITE enough of you.

@HYR 2.0 RESPECT MOTHER****ER, LEARN THE MEANING OF IT.

Where will this lead you?

He wasn't talking to you dude.