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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#49376
Simon_Says

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balance5050 wrote...

Casey Hudson -

 "As things progress in the high-level storyline, we’re constantly trying to do redirects. You think you win the war by doing one thing, and then you realize it’s something else."


"What we’re doing with Mass Effect 3 that’s a little bit different than what we’ve done before is exploring the idea of getting the player to understand and feel what Commander Shepard is experiencing versus just reacting to other characters."


"We end up exploring some spaces that maybe have never been done before. Because interactive storytelling is still kind of new, there are neat things to try. One of the things we’re trying in Mass Effect 3 is the idea that we can let you feel something that is part of that character’s experience versus strictly getting you to react to things that you see and experience. We’re trying to tell a little bit of the story Shepard would feel and seeing if the player feels that as well. "

http://www.gameinfor...PostPageIndex=1 

Very nice catch!

TheConstantOne wrote...

I was hoping for something on par with the Coates theory from yesterday. That was a spectacular read and would fit well with IT


Oh that was a brilliant bit of thinking on that guys part. Really shows that there are still things to find and think about, and that the more we search, the stronger our little fanfiction becomes.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 03 mai 2012 - 02:58 .


#49377
Arian Dynas

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balance5050 wrote...

Casey Hudson -


 "As things progress in the high-level storyline, we’re constantly trying to do redirects. You think you win the war by doing one thing, and then you realize it’s something else."


"What we’re doing with Mass Effect 3 that’s a little bit different than what we’ve done before is exploring the idea of getting the player to understand and feel what Commander Shepard is experiencing versus just reacting to other characters."


"We end up exploring some spaces that maybe have never been done before. Because interactive storytelling is still kind of new, there are neat things to try. One of the things we’re trying in Mass Effect 3 is the idea that we can let you feel something that is part of that character’s experience versus strictly getting you to react to things that you see and experience. We’re trying to tell a little bit of the story Shepard would feel and seeing if the player feels that as well. "

http://www.gameinfor...PostPageIndex=1 


Holy ****. Consider me sold.

#49378
gunslinger_ruiz

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Arian Dynas wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Casey Hudson -


 "As things progress in the high-level storyline, we’re constantly trying to do redirects. You think you win the war by doing one thing, and then you realize it’s something else."


"What we’re doing with Mass Effect 3 that’s a little bit different than what we’ve done before is exploring the idea of getting the player to understand and feel what Commander Shepard is experiencing versus just reacting to other characters."


"We end up exploring some spaces that maybe have never been done before. Because interactive storytelling is still kind of new, there are neat things to try. One of the things we’re trying in Mass Effect 3 is the idea that we can let you feel something that is part of that character’s experience versus strictly getting you to react to things that you see and experience. We’re trying to tell a little bit of the story Shepard would feel and seeing if the player feels that as well. "

http://www.gameinfor...PostPageIndex=1 


Holy ****. Consider me sold.


This is very telling, why haven't we seen it before? Or maybe it's here just burried. Either way, thanks for the link!

#49379
TheConstantOne

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NotAnotherDisplayName wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

I can probably be considered a casual in regards to the ending though I am passionate about the game.  Personally  my view is this: I've rationalized a literalist (more or less) ending so that the story has closure while I wait for EC verification.  Once EC comes out, I will be extremely pleased if Bioware goes with IT because of how incredible the story becomes


Not trolling, or trying to be a dick here- how did you rationalize the breath?  Just as a 'oooh what if?' scene?  That's the one part in the ending that absolutely drives me nuts.  I can live with many other bits of it, but I keep coming back to the secret ending.

I'm with you though, I'll be super happy if it turns out to be IT, but I'm not going to boycott them regardless.


A perfectly fair question.  And this was the most difficult thing to rationalize.  I will give you some quick context so you see where I'm coming from.

Remember how Shep says to Hackett that he doesn't know how to use the control panel?  I think that the magical elevator that carries Shepard away could be seen as Shep passing out and beginning to hallucinate.  In the next scene, it is *the Crucible that speaks to him.* The Crucible does seem to be based somewhat on Reaper tech so to me it isn't out of the question that some benign mental communication can occur here.  The Crucible connects to both Shepard and the Reapers and creates Reaper Bieber to explain "what the Reapers think" and...blah blah blah. You know all this.

The choices Shepard gets are within the ability of the Crucible machine based on how it was built (your EMS) and the Crucible guides Shepard through this hallucination on how to carry out your choice with the control panel.  

Reaper Bieber claims that Shepard dies in the control and synthesis endings, so this happens (the toll they take on his/her mind and body must be high.)  For destroy, this is not so. With a high enough EMS, Shepard has enough willpower to keep living. Hence the breath scene.

I can't explain the Normandy scene at all unless I consider that as Shepard's dream about his squad finding piece.  If there is one clarification I want from the EC, it is what the hell happened with Normandy haha

#49380
Arian Dynas

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Arbalor4 wrote...

We cant stop so close to 2000 were almost there


Absolutely, we're still in the 70's! I mean, DISCO IS POPULAR! GOLD MEDALS, AFROS! LEISURE SUITS! GET ME THE HELL OUT OF HERE!

#49381
TheConstantOne

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Simon_Says wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

I was hoping for something on par with the Coates theory from yesterday. That was a spectacular read and would fit well with IT


Oh that was a brilliant bit of thinking on that guys part. Really shows that there are still things to find and think about, and that the more we search, the stronger our little fanfiction becomes.


For all the vagueness surrounding the ending, whether it be real or indoctrination, I honestly think it was worth it solely for this kind of meaningful discussion from us fans.  This level of discussion and passion would likely not have shown itself had the ending gone differently.  Not to mention the effect that this will have on the entire gaming industry... ME 3 left its mark.  That is undeniable

#49382
byne

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Arian Dynas wrote...

Arbalor4 wrote...

We cant stop so close to 2000 were almost there


Absolutely, we're still in the 70's! I mean, DISCO IS POPULAR! GOLD MEDALS, AFROS! LEISURE SUITS! GET ME THE HELL OUT OF HERE!


Its currently 1976. Star Wars comes out next page!

#49383
slyko227

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Arian Dynas wrote...

Arbalor4 wrote...

We cant stop so close to 2000 were almost there


Absolutely, we're still in the 70's! I mean, DISCO IS POPULAR! GOLD MEDALS, AFROS! LEISURE SUITS! GET ME THE HELL OUT OF HERE!

lol funniest thing i've seen today:D

#49384
slyko227

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byne wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Arbalor4 wrote...

We cant stop so close to 2000 were almost there


Absolutely, we're still in the 70's! I mean, DISCO IS POPULAR! GOLD MEDALS, AFROS! LEISURE SUITS! GET ME THE HELL OUT OF HERE!


Its currently 1976. Star Wars comes out next page!

best thing i've read today :D
i hope this dosent trend, dont want to read a worst:unsure:

#49385
Simon_Says

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Arian Dynas wrote...

Arbalor4 wrote...

We cant stop so close to 2000 were almost there


Absolutely, we're still in the 70's! I mean, DISCO IS POPULAR! GOLD MEDALS, AFROS! LEISURE SUITS! GET ME THE HELL OUT OF HERE!


Shut up. This is the decade of the greatest music. It only goes downhill from here for the most part.

Also we need a plan in place for 2001: An Indoctrination Odyssey and 2010: The Page Bioware Makes Contact.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 03 mai 2012 - 03:15 .


#49386
Athlonis1

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TheConstantOne wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

I was hoping for something on par with the Coates theory from yesterday. That was a spectacular read and would fit well with IT


Oh that was a brilliant bit of thinking on that guys part. Really shows that there are still things to find and think about, and that the more we search, the stronger our little fanfiction becomes.


For all the vagueness surrounding the ending, whether it be real or indoctrination, I honestly think it was worth it solely for this kind of meaningful discussion from us fans.  This level of discussion and passion would likely not have shown itself had the ending gone differently.  Not to mention the effect that this will have on the entire gaming industry... ME 3 left its mark.  That is undeniable


This is true, but I'd like to argue that you have to take this with a grain a salt. You must understand that Indoc essentially boils down to "the ending was so bad we'd rather believe it was a(n indoctrination) dream/nightmare rather than the real ending". That frankly isn't a good thing. I believe that the future of the Mass Effect universe would have been discussed with an actual ending. 

#49387
TheConstantOne

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Athlonis1 wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

I was hoping for something on par with the Coates theory from yesterday. That was a spectacular read and would fit well with IT


Oh that was a brilliant bit of thinking on that guys part. Really shows that there are still things to find and think about, and that the more we search, the stronger our little fanfiction becomes.


For all the vagueness surrounding the ending, whether it be real or indoctrination, I honestly think it was worth it solely for this kind of meaningful discussion from us fans.  This level of discussion and passion would likely not have shown itself had the ending gone differently.  Not to mention the effect that this will have on the entire gaming industry... ME 3 left its mark.  That is undeniable


This is true, but I'd like to argue that you have to take this with a grain a salt. You must understand that Indoc essentially boils down to "the ending was so bad we'd rather believe it was a(n indoctrination) dream/nightmare rather than the real ending". That frankly isn't a good thing. I believe that the future of the Mass Effect universe would have been discussed with an actual ending. 


I'm not saying this situation was a flowery meadow to walk through haha.  My point was that given how badly handled the ending was, this level of fan commitment has helped make up for the considerable setback

#49388
blooregard

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Athlonis1 wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

I was hoping for something on par with the Coates theory from yesterday. That was a spectacular read and would fit well with IT


Oh that was a brilliant bit of thinking on that guys part. Really shows that there are still things to find and think about, and that the more we search, the stronger our little fanfiction becomes.


For all the vagueness surrounding the ending, whether it be real or indoctrination, I honestly think it was worth it solely for this kind of meaningful discussion from us fans.  This level of discussion and passion would likely not have shown itself had the ending gone differently.  Not to mention the effect that this will have on the entire gaming industry... ME 3 left its mark.  That is undeniable


This is true, but I'd like to argue that you have to take this with a grain a salt. You must understand that Indoc essentially boils down to "the ending was so bad we'd rather believe it was a(n indoctrination) dream/nightmare rather than the real ending". That frankly isn't a good thing. I believe that the future of the Mass Effect universe would have been discussed with an actual ending. 




Yeah this is the only time I'm willing to accept the "it was all a dream" plot device because what we got is infinately worse then that.

#49389
NotAnotherDisplayName

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TheConstantOne wrote...

<snip>
For destroy, this is not so. With a high enough EMS, Shepard has enough willpower to keep living. Hence the breath scene.
<snip>


Your explanation makes some sense to me, it just makes it harder for me to swallow the writing. Posted Image

#49390
Salient Archer

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So as I often do when I have a break during my teaching schedule, I think about the Indoctrination theory and today I figured out How I feel the EMS rating relates to Shepard’s indoctrination. I’m sure this has been posted somewhere before and I know it’s quite lengthy but I just felt the need to finally get it down and see what the forum dwellers thought.

What is the EMS system really about?
So from what I’ve worked out so far, I believe that the EMS rating relates directly to Shepard’s resolve and hence willpower. I feel this is most evident in how the crucible presents new options with slightly improved outcomes as the EMS rating starts to increase. Not only increasing Shepard’s hope or desire to survive but also the Reapers desire to indoctrinate Shepard due to his military, political and social influence on others.

The Crucible
Considering the crucibles construction is independent to Shepard’s military strength and regardless of most choices, is always built the same way (even if you did or didn’t take the options of having the Rachni or Geth working on it). 

Not only this but the options the crucible presents to you are always tied directly into your EMS, for example with a low EMS (and a destroyed collector base) Shepard’s only option is ‘Destroy the reapers’ (more on this later).

The Choices
But how would a construct suddenly present you with less or more options because of your effective military strength? How would it logically be able to determine this? Did the StarChild take a gander outside, do a quick head count, checked to see how the N7 spec op teams are doing and then based on this information decided to turn a few options off just because he felt Shep did a pretty crap job of rallying the galaxy together!?

When does reality become fantasy?

Now, if we chose to believe that everything from Harbingers beam onward is just happening in Shepard’s head and that he’s actually heading down the slippery slopes of indoctrination, than we can assume that everything that takes places in the citadel onwards; from the arguments with Anderson and TIM to the choices Shepard can make, are just illusionary fictions.

A different interpretation of EMS

Now for arguments sake lets stop thinking of EMS as Effective Military Strength and start thinking of it as Shepard’s Will Power and to help illustrate this point I will break down each level. 
With a Destroyed Collector Base from ME2 (I’ll talk about the opposite later)

0-1749
So with the lowest EMS Shepard can only choose this option to destroy the reapers. Not only this, but the StarChild treats Shepard with more indifference than usual. So why the one option? and why is it destroy? Simply put the Reapers feel that Shepard has no worth, influence or value. He couldn’t rally the galaxy to defend earth and hence his death or indoctrination doesn’t carry a consequence for them. Essentially they just don’t give a frak and although Shepard’s resolve is high his will power is too low and doesn’t have the strength to survive the journey back from indoctrination.

1750-2049

The Reapers treat Shepard are little more seriously this time. He might not have rallied the Galaxy to the full potential he could have, but he was still more successful than any organic before him. The Reapers now offer him an additional choice: Control (become indoctrinated) because as a servant to the Reaper cause; Shepard could now potentially influence the amassed galaxy forces.

Notes: Codex clearly states that the Reapers chose to indoctrinate those in key positions of power and influence, Who fits this bill better than Commander Shepard?

The the two handles Shepard holds in the control option are labeled BadEnding in the game design map.

Shepard’s eyes not only glow bright blue in the control ending but his iris’ also have identical patterns to those of the illusive man.

2050-2799
These present increasingly better versions of the above two options, each improvement representing both Shepard’s increase in will power (Destroy option) or the Reaper’s desire for Shepard as an asset (Control option) hence why he starts to envision better outcomes due to the Reaper’s trying to solidify their hold on him or Shepard being closer to breaking free of the indoctrination process.

The notable improvements happen at these stages.
2050 - Earth is only ravaged and the Normandy crew now survives in Destroy ending.
2350 - Earth now survives opposed to being ravaged in the control ending
2650 - Earth now survives opposed to being ravaged in the destroy ending

2800 - 3999

Shepard by this stage has proven how valuable he really is as an asset to the Reapers, not only this but by this stage the Reapers realize how powerful Shepard’s will is becoming and hence they fear he might break free of the indoctrination process.

Fearful of loosing their best potential asset, the Reapers pull out their big guns and present another tempting choice: The synthesis of Organics and Synthetics. This choice is not only the moral high-ground but also seems incredibly amazing due to implications it has of galactic peace for both Synthetics and Organics for all eternity. It represents the hope of a permanent end to the  cycle of destruction and the dawn of the next evolutionary step for galactic life. To bad it’s a big fat lie.
Notes: When picking this option Shepard seems to morph into an almost husk like appearance complete with glowing blue eyes which also share the same iris pattern as the Illusive man.

4000
The only notable difference with an EMS of 4000+ is that Shepard now survives after the Destroy ending. Hence alluding to the fact that his will power is now strong enough to overcome the indoctrination process.

The indoctrination alternative
So if the events on the Crucible are real than Shepard can apparently survive coping a face full of explosion, than the complete destruction of the crucible/catalyst/citadel, he also hurtles through space (without a breathing mask?) at around 50,000kph (31068mph), resists temperatures of up to 1480 degrees C (2700 F) and then magically comes to a slow gentle stop in a neat little pile of rubble, and despite all this he takes a deep breath?.
Or, the events all took place in his mind, and because his will is strong enough and has the desire to keep fighting he breaks free of the indoctrination process, takes a deep breath and wakes up in the rubble of London where Harbinger’s beam struck him.

I know which I feel is more likely and sticks much more tightly to the lore of the ME universe.

So, what if you kept the collector base in ME2?
Well, nothing, seriously...  It’s been said that the control option is available first when you have a really low EMS and chose to save the base; and many use this as an argument against the indoctrination theory. 

But, I look at this way; if Shepard made the immoral choice of retaining a technology that is that perverse and than decides to freely handed it over to the most sinister man in the whole galaxy, it’s pretty clear that Shepard had lost the will to do the right thing long before ME3 even started. 

It also demonstrates how easily manipulated Shepard can be, considering the illusive man (an agent of the Reapers) manipulated him into keeping the base in ME2 and the Reapers easily manipulate him into only being able to chose indoctrination at the end of ME3 ... essentially he doesn’t even have the will power or moral stance to do anything other than become a husk.

So, that’s my rant out of the way! I’d love to hear thought and opinions from either side of the IT camps

Modifié par Salient Archer, 03 mai 2012 - 03:33 .


#49391
Arian Dynas

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blooregard wrote...

Yeah this is the only time I'm willing to accept the "it was all a dream" plot device because what we got is infinately worse then that.


It's not a "It was all a dream" twist. Because it has real world consequences for one, for two it suits the lore of the setting, and for three, as I keep reminding people, this is a hallucinatory battle for Shepard's Soul, not a bad dream.

#49392
Arian Dynas

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Simon_Says wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Arbalor4 wrote...

We cant stop so close to 2000 were almost there


Absolutely, we're still in the 70's! I mean, DISCO IS POPULAR! GOLD MEDALS, AFROS! LEISURE SUITS! GET ME THE HELL OUT OF HERE!


Shut up. This is the decade of the greatest music. It only goes downhill from here for the most part.

Also we need a plan in place for 2001: An Indoctrination Odyssey and 2010: The Page Bioware Makes Contact.


 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ESdn0MuJWQ 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPAEFnVZVOs&feature=related 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BR31L-79sM 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqldwoDXHKg 

Your argument is invalid. :happy:

#49393
Simon_Says

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Salient Archer wrote...

DING DING DING I R WINNRAR


In other news, literalists still can't explain how Anderson getting shot by TIM raises the EMS limit required for Shepard to survive by a thousand.

#49394
TheConstantOne

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NotAnotherDisplayName wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

<snip>
For destroy, this is not so. With a high enough EMS, Shepard has enough willpower to keep living. Hence the breath scene.
<snip>


Your explanation makes some sense to me, it just makes it harder for me to swallow the writing. Posted Image


I never said it was pleasant.  I'm not alone in saying that the ending was badly executed haha

But as far as literalist theories go, I haven't seen anyone put anything forward besides myself so far so...that's all I have to refer you to haha

#49395
Simon_Says

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Arian Dynas wrote...
Your argument is invalid. :happy:


Nope.avi

#49396
Arian Dynas

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Salient, you have lived up to your name. I tip my hat to you. Very well written and reasoned.

But a few things you did forget. In addition to the temperature from an explosion, as well as the kinetic impact from Shepard's velocity, there is the problem with pressure waves from the explosion (if there is air where the choice takes place) in which case his lungs would burst like waterballons. Or if there is no air there, that presents entirely different problems.

And also the fact that the explosion, to rend quantum shielded material would need to be measured in excess of GIGATONS of TNT, which is to say, more than enough to make the Tsar Bomba look like a firecracker by comparison.

And personally I would argue that maintaining the Collector base is less "Lost the will to do the right thing" and more "Is capable of seeing the other side of the issue and is coming around to their thinking." He's starting to think like the enemy, and is basically slowly turning against that iron hard core of anathema that he held for the Reapers for more than 3 years, meaning his resolve to see them destroyed was weakened.

#49397
Arian Dynas

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Simon_Says wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...
Your argument is invalid. :happy:


Nope.avi


IF YOU DON'T EAT YOUR MEAT, YOU CAN'T HAVE ANY PUDDING!

#49398
The Spamming Troll

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i love you indoctrination theory!!!

#49399
Arian Dynas

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The Spamming Troll wrote...

i love you indoctrination theory!!!


:wub:...


...:kissing:

#49400
Simon_Says

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The Spamming Troll wrote...

i love you indoctrination theory!!!

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