57139 réponses à ce sujet

[HellishFiend]

This is gonna be a long one because I've been meaning to catch up for awhile. Hopefully you guys can sift through it. 

[quote]Simon_Says wrote...


Dante, you're right. The Starbrat's reasoning could be sound. But its logic is obviously framed around a value system incompatible with our own. 
[/quote]

I said it before and I'll say it again: "value systems" have no business in a logical analysis. Logic is a mathematical process that determines if an argument is valid or invalid. Values are opinions and do not affect whether or not logic is well formed or poorly formed. Starbrat's logic can be picked apart and destroyed regardless of the value system or objectivity of the analyst. 

[quote]SS2Dante wrote...


Because we've had this argument like 10 times and it always escalates and goes on for like 12 pages. I think the starchilds reasoning is perfectly sound BUT I will NOT go into it again

Anyway, either way I don't think his reasoning is a super solid argument one way or the other, so *shrug*

[/quote] 

It honestly doesnt matter whether you go into it again or not; both you and the starchild are wrong, and there is no room for interpretation or opinion as to whether they are wrong or not. The starchild uses fallacious logic in support of his conclusion and you use fallacious logic in support of him. Perhaps you missed the following post I made:

http://social.biowar...3/1797#11704335 

Here is the key part:

Assumption:
The created will always rebel against their creators
(assumption based on historical precedent) 
Organics will always develop Synthetics
 (a near statistical certainty) 
Therefore, Synthetics will eventually wipe out all organics
(assumption/unverifiable conclusion. not sufficiently supported by premises. additional contributing factors not present in the logical process)  


Assumption:
Human Boys will always have sex with Human Girls to produce Human offspring
(assumption based on historical precedent)  
Humanity will always consist of both Boys and Girls
(a near statistical certainty)
Therefore, Humanity will always exist and will never die out or otherwise go extinct 
(assumption/unverifiable conclusion. not sufficiently supported by premises. additional contributing factors not present in the logical process)   

Do you see how the logic falls apart there? There are too many variables for either of those to be a logical conclusion. A logical assumption? Sure, in both cases, if you ALSO assume that the premises are true (note that the premises are NOT facts, they are other assumptions and statistical probabilities!), and that the other contributing factors that are absent from the logical process are conducive towards your conclusion.

As this applies to starbrats fail logic, his assumption relies on too many other assumptions (and even relying on ONE assumption invalidates his logic), such as the supposed malicious synthetics even being interested in wiping out any further organics aside from their creators in the first place. There are too many variables and unverifiable assumptions for it to be sound logic. Sound assumption? Debatable. Sound logic. NO.  

We already know that the conclusion that it is not possible for Humanity to ever go extinct is wrong, and considering that I used the SAME EXACT LOGIC to arrive at that conclusion that the Starbrat uses to come to his is definitive, unequivocal, inarguable proof that his logic is flawed. If you've ever studied logic or taken a logic course or even just know a thing or two about logic then you know without a doubt that I just proved both you and the Starbrat wrong. Seriously. Go read up on logic if you dont believe me. 

[quote]pro5 wrote...

I've conjured a video presentation of my new interpretation of the ending:  

It kinda fits with the indoctrination theory, although I approach it from a slightly different angle.

Let me know what you think guys. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie][/quote] 


Awesome video! Loved it. 

[quote]liggy002 wrote...

[quote]Hawk227 wrote...

[quote]HellishFiend wrote...

Changing the subject a bit, I've actually decided to alter my interpretation of the ending a bit. I used to think the entire thing from the get-go (harbinger's beam) was reaper influence/indoctrination, but now I'm convinced that the major reaper influence/indoctrination attempt doesnt start until the elevator. 

I came to that conclusion because I'm starting to think that the second of the two grunts you hear when you shoot Anderson is actually TIM. It would explain why its the same grunt even when you're playing femshep. That would indicate to me that both Anderson and TIM are equally a part of Shepard, as opposed to TIM being all or mostly controlled by outside forces. 

Obviously there is some indoctrination that is taking place throughout the entire game, and I think everything in between harbinger's beam and the elevator is just a continuation of that. It's the "slow, patient indoctrination" mentioned in the codex. When that fails (or is taking too long to work), Harbinger decides to step in and begin a "rapid indoctrination" attempt, starting with the elevator scene. I think that when Shepard passes out at the control panel, he is actually about to wake up from his dream, but instead Harbinger steps in and begins the starbrat sequence.

Thoughts?[/quote]

The only real problem with that, is the breath scene. How does shepard then wake up in rubble? He would be waking up next to the console.

[/quote]

Also, Shep's squad abandoning him doesn't make any sense either.  Where are thier bodies?  I don't see them anywhere.
[/quote]

You guys seem to be misunderstanding me.... I'm not suggesting that anything after harby's beam is to be taken at face value, just that everything between harby's beam and the elevator scene is a hallucination mostly without reaper influence, as opposed to being directly controlled by Harbinger. (slow, patient indoc vs rapid indoc)


[quote]Rifneno wrote...


[quote]byne wrote...

Last I looked on IMDB I couldnt find Major Coates on the ME3 cast list, which I thought was odd[/quote]

It definitely is odd. A lot of much more minor characters are listed. Henry Lawson, Kahlee Sanders, Brynn Cole... Coates isn't listed, but Templeton does have "Additional Voices" by his name.

Oh, as I recall someone pondered a while back the possibility of Anderson being indoctrinated. I want to note there's either a plot hole or something up there. When Emily Wong was doing her final story on Twitter, the Reapers got her because they could track QEC transmissions coming from her equipment. That's the same way Anderson is keeping in touch with Shepard. The Reapers can't block QEC but they can apparently track it. So why is Anderson alive?[/quote] 

Interesting possibilities. If IT is true, its definitely possible that something else is going on behind the scenes at Earth, and Coates is a likely suspect. I cant decide if it's likely that Anderson could be in on it too though. The QEC thing could have just been a disconnect between the writers and the PR folks behind the real-life Twitter stuff, but I also wouldnt put it past bioware to have that planned out.

[quote]gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Because of this, his ONLY two options are Control and Synthesis, he didn't even get the destroy cutscene showing Anderson, the Destroy tube was empty on that side. I theorize that, if Anderson represents your willpower in this hallucination, and you fail to stop his outright execution you lack the necessary willpower to overcome Indoctrination, having no option to Destroy the attempt whatsoever. Whereas if you save Anderson, he dies anyway, but not by TIMs/The Reapers hand, and he's able to offer words of encouragement which gives you the boost in willpower that makes the Destroy option available.
[/quote] 

Wait, let me get this straight. Are you saying it's possible to actually get just two choices, one of which is Synthesis? Or are you just theorizing?


[quote]byne wrote...

Anyone find it odd that the ending TIM wanted (control) is also the only ending in which we dont actually see the relays completely blow up?
[/quote] 

Actually I think the relays do blow up in the Control ending, we just dont see it in detail because they had to trim down some of the scenes due to them being limited by the length of the musical score. The bit where Shepard is grabbing the control pedestal and getting huskified is much longer than the equivalent scenes in Synthesis or Destroy.


[quote]paxxton wrote...

There is another scene besides ME3 ending in the series where TIM appears without his theme music playing in the background. When he tries to convince Shepard to spare the Collector base.[/quote] 

Good find. That does somewhat diminish the significance of the fact that his theme doesnt play during the Citadel Return. 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 03 mai 2012 - 09:06 .

[MaximizedAction]

Vahilor wrote...

Somthing new the last two days ?

Major Coats and Anderson might not be who they seem.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 03 mai 2012 - 09:05 .

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Alright then, so here we are with some Shepard screens. Image below, I couldn't figure out what the circled area was and why it looked that way on Shepard. Looked as if Shepard has  super stretched neck and some kind of blue stripes in a circle on his/her shoulder (if that was a shoulder).



But, after analyzing the scene until my eyes bled and looking back at some screensshots I took, I can say with some degree of certainty that is Shepard's neck and his/her head is facing back and to the left shoulder.
A shot of the fangled armor segment, left side:



A shot of the stripes in a circle:



A shot of Shepard's neck when she stretched it to the left:



How does this relate to IDT? I have no idea, and I know the scene is pre-rendered but they put some serious detail into that thing.

EDIT NOTE: make sure to right click view image to see the full size, and the Shepard's breath screenshot is heavily brightened.

Modifié par gunslinger_ruiz, 03 mai 2012 - 09:12 .

[gunslinger_ruiz]

@Hellishfiend According to my friend (I wasn't there to personally witness it) his only two options were Control and Synthesis. He had 6000 or more EMS, 100% readiness rating, less than max Reputation (I wanna say around 90%), and did Not import from ME2 so he had default history. Since his reputation was too low he wasn't able to stop The Illusive Man from killing Anderson, but I think he mentioned he skipped a renegade interrupt.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Watching the return of the fleets to the sol relay, we do see a reaper's arms ripped off in that battle; I think we can defeat the reapers conventionally provided we have a large enough fleet.

Large enough fleet is the problem here. We need 3 Dreadnoughts to every Sovreign class Reaper (supporting crafts not counted) we are gonna need a hell of alot of Dreadnoughts...

Hell I think someone mentioned there has been at least 170 cycles before this one and if assume the Reapers made just one Sovreign class in each cycle we would have at least 167 Sovreign class Reapers to deal with (Sovreigns allready out along with the Derelict reaper and the Leviathan of Dis ) that would mean we need 501 dreadnoughts.

Off course this is not certain as I think it was mentioned that we think no Sovreign class Reaper was made from the Protheans but it still gives us a rought number and it is not a pretty one.

So yes it is possible to defeat the Reapers conventionally, but it is not logically possible in this cycle at least the way i see it.

We would need 501... to take them on in a fair fight with traditional Kinetic weapons. Remember, the Asari had a near perfect sucuess rate before they were forced into a ground war, they could hit a few capital ships and Destroyers and be gone before they could retaliate. Also recall that Thanix series weapons are considerably more effective.

Yeah off course, but we are still talking about needing Dreadnoughts in the hundreds, but at the moment we got...

39 turian, 20 asari, 16 salarian, and 9 human, 1 volus, probably around 35 Geth (if they survived) as they were mentioned of beeing second only to the Turians in terms of fleet. To that we can add the 3 refitted Quarian liveships. Then we might be able to add 1 or 2 Batarian Dreadnoughts if they were lucky enough that the remainder of their fleet saved that much (cant remember teh war asset escribtion for them)

All in all we end up with a good estimate of 125 Dreadnought class ships and that is not adjusting for those who have allready been lost, meaning the dreadnought count probably does not even match the Reaper Sovreign class count...

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 03 mai 2012 - 09:31 .

[gunslinger_ruiz]

The more I look at the reaper-like oval plate shapes in the Breath scene the more they look like they're squared on the base. So they'd be half ovals on top of a rectangle....still no #$!#ing clue where I've seen them before in game, not definitively anyway.

[spotlessvoid]

MaximizedAction wrote...

Vahilor wrote...

Somthing new the last two days ?

Major Coats and Anderson might not be who they seem.

Took me two days to catch up. Coates being indoctrinated is a lot more likely than Anderson. Coates being essentially an after thought in the game when he starred in his own pre launch trailer, his actions during the entire ending, and disposition relative to the tone of most ME characters make him a prime suspect for betraying Shepard.

It's a little hard to think that Bioware, supposedly pressed for time and cutting corners due to laziness and incompetence, put time into developing Coates as a character and made an expensive trailer for him only to not use him for anything.

[HellishFiend]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

@Hellishfiend According to my friend (I wasn't there to personally witness it) his only two options were Control and Synthesis. He had 6000 or more EMS, 100% readiness rating, less than max Reputation (I wanna say around 90%), and did Not import from ME2 so he had default history. Since his reputation was too low he wasn't able to stop The Illusive Man from killing Anderson, but I think he mentioned he skipped a renegade interrupt.

Very interesting. It could imply that if certain conditions are not met, you simply cannot break indoctrination even if you would otherwise be able to. 

[gunslinger_ruiz]

HellishFiend wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

@Hellishfiend According to my friend (I wasn't there to personally witness it) his only two options were Control and Synthesis. He had 6000 or more EMS, 100% readiness rating, less than max Reputation (I wanna say around 90%), and did Not import from ME2 so he had default history. Since his reputation was too low he wasn't able to stop The Illusive Man from killing Anderson, but I think he mentioned he skipped a renegade interrupt.

Very interesting. It could imply that if certain conditions are not met, you simply cannot break indoctrination even if you would otherwise be able to. 

Another one of the reasons I believe Anderson is a manifistation of your willpower. He dies no matter what you do, but the manner of his death effects your morale.

[HellishFiend]

Yep, I've felt that ever since I watched the ACAVYOS IT video (which was my first exposure to IT) 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 03 mai 2012 - 10:22 .

[HellishFiend]

You know, the more I think about it, the more I think we need to verify your friend's claim and post a video of it if we can. There is no way I can think of that face-value context can hold up if that turns out to be the case.

You mentioned he had the default history. What about the Virmire Survivor? Or did he pick the "heavy losses" one? 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 03 mai 2012 - 10:27 .

[gunslinger_ruiz]

I'll talk with him about it, since 1.2 hit he's been glued to SWTOR so I'll see what I can do.

[Arian Dynas]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Watching the return of the fleets to the sol relay, we do see a reaper's arms ripped off in that battle; I think we can defeat the reapers conventionally provided we have a large enough fleet.

Large enough fleet is the problem here. We need 3 Dreadnoughts to every Sovreign class Reaper (supporting crafts not counted) we are gonna need a hell of alot of Dreadnoughts...

Hell I think someone mentioned there has been at least 170 cycles before this one and if assume the Reapers made just one Sovreign class in each cycle we would have at least 167 Sovreign class Reapers to deal with (Sovreigns allready out along with the Derelict reaper and the Leviathan of Dis ) that would mean we need 501 dreadnoughts.

Off course this is not certain as I think it was mentioned that we think no Sovreign class Reaper was made from the Protheans but it still gives us a rought number and it is not a pretty one.

So yes it is possible to defeat the Reapers conventionally, but it is not logically possible in this cycle at least the way i see it.

We would need 501... to take them on in a fair fight with traditional Kinetic weapons. Remember, the Asari had a near perfect sucuess rate before they were forced into a ground war, they could hit a few capital ships and Destroyers and be gone before they could retaliate. Also recall that Thanix series weapons are considerably more effective.

Yeah off course, but we are still talking about needing Dreadnoughts in the hundreds, but at the moment we got...

39 turian, 20 asari, 16 salarian, and 9 human, 1 volus, probably around 35 Geth (if they survived) as they were mentioned of beeing second only to the Turians in terms of fleet. To that we can add the 3 refitted Quarian liveships. Then we might be able to add 1 or 2 Batarian Dreadnoughts if they were lucky enough that the remainder of their fleet saved that much (cant remember teh war asset escribtion for them)

All in all we end up with a good estimate of 125 Dreadnought class ships and that is not adjusting for those who have allready been lost, meaning the dreadnought count probably does not even match the Reaper Sovreign class count...

Gonna stop you right there because I can most def prove you wrong on THAT count. According to the quarians, with the Heavy Fleet factored in, they RIVAL the Turian Fleet, As in somewhere around 30+. And this is all forgetting that A). I beleive the Elcor have one or two. and . The Terminus Fleet is filled with God only knows how many ships, both large and small, and any single one of them could be an illegal dreadnought. And even if it's not, support ships win wars just as much as Dreadnoughts.

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Alright then, so here we are with some Shepard screens. Image below, I couldn't figure out what the circled area was and why it looked that way on Shepard. Looked as if Shepard has  super stretched neck and some kind of blue stripes in a circle on his/her shoulder (if that was a shoulder).



But, after analyzing the scene until my eyes bled and looking back at some screensshots I took, I can say with some degree of certainty that is Shepard's neck and his/her head is facing back and to the left shoulder.
A shot of the fangled armor segment, left side:



A shot of the stripes in a circle: 


A shot of Shepard's neck when she stretched it to the left:



How does this relate to IDT? I have no idea, and I know the scene is pre-rendered but they put some serious detail into that thing.

EDIT NOTE: make sure to right click view image to see the full size, and the Shepard's breath screenshot is heavily brightened.

I'll tell you what it DOES do.

It proves the stuff in that scene is rebar.

Geth and Reaper cables are shown, in game to be made up of thousands of smaller cables, bundle together and wrapped with a spiral covering. If they put in that much detail into the prerendered cutscene, and one can see the tiny cables even OUTSIDE of the prerenders, they why would they not show them in the cutscene? I'll tell you, because it's not cabling.

Also @ Hellishfiend good to see ya man! It seems my walls of text have become contagious.

Anywho, I decided to follow your guys endorsement and bought The Witcher Enhanced Edition, I'm not far into it, but it feels very... meh. The Advanced medicine in the middle ages thing bugs me, and I do feel confusing coming in since I keep seeing references to things that go right over my head. Even amnesiac, Geralt knows more than I do.

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 03 mai 2012 - 10:38 .

[HellishFiend]

Arian Dynas wrote...


Also @ Hellishfiend good to see ya man! It seems my walls of text have become contagious.

Thanks. I've actually been here the whole time, but haven't been posting because I fell behind and was trying to catch up! When I finally did, I had several things I wanted to reply to, so I adopted your wall of text strategy. 

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Arian Dynas I respect you more than Anyone else on this forum and trust in your logic BUT if you say the phrase "that's rebar" referring to Shepard's breath scene without being sarcastic I am going to have to find some Reaper cable and beat someone to death with it. BRB with screenshots.

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Fun fact: view #200 of Shepard's Breath has been achieved.
Screenshots incoming, eta 5-8 minutes.

[Arian Dynas]

Tellin ya. It's rebar, for three reasons. One it's about as thick as Shepard's dog tags, Geth cables are far thicker, roughly a human arm in size. Reaper cables are comparable, but the fact is they still are closer to the width of a human hand by comparison. We know the scene takes place on earth, the concrete comparison shows that much, and to be honest, though I have said otherwise, I saw no Reaper cables on the approach, going back through again. And finally, the reason you cited, the textures are extremely detailed and high res. Even on medium texture wuality, one can clearly see smaller cables wrapped with a covering, in the breath scene we see no such smaller cables.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Watching the return of the fleets to the sol relay, we do see a reaper's arms ripped off in that battle; I think we can defeat the reapers conventionally provided we have a large enough fleet.

Large enough fleet is the problem here. We need 3 Dreadnoughts to every Sovreign class Reaper (supporting crafts not counted) we are gonna need a hell of alot of Dreadnoughts...

Hell I think someone mentioned there has been at least 170 cycles before this one and if assume the Reapers made just one Sovreign class in each cycle we would have at least 167 Sovreign class Reapers to deal with (Sovreigns allready out along with the Derelict reaper and the Leviathan of Dis ) that would mean we need 501 dreadnoughts.

Off course this is not certain as I think it was mentioned that we think no Sovreign class Reaper was made from the Protheans but it still gives us a rought number and it is not a pretty one.

So yes it is possible to defeat the Reapers conventionally, but it is not logically possible in this cycle at least the way i see it.

We would need 501... to take them on in a fair fight with traditional Kinetic weapons. Remember, the Asari had a near perfect sucuess rate before they were forced into a ground war, they could hit a few capital ships and Destroyers and be gone before they could retaliate. Also recall that Thanix series weapons are considerably more effective.

Yeah off course, but we are still talking about needing Dreadnoughts in the hundreds, but at the moment we got...

39 turian, 20 asari, 16 salarian, and 9 human, 1 volus, probably around 35 Geth (if they survived) as they were mentioned of beeing second only to the Turians in terms of fleet. To that we can add the 3 refitted Quarian liveships. Then we might be able to add 1 or 2 Batarian Dreadnoughts if they were lucky enough that the remainder of their fleet saved that much (cant remember teh war asset escribtion for them)

All in all we end up with a good estimate of 125 Dreadnought class ships and that is not adjusting for those who have allready been lost, meaning the dreadnought count probably does not even match the Reaper Sovreign class count...

Gonna stop you right there because I can most def prove you wrong on THAT count. According to the quarians, with the Heavy Fleet factored in, they RIVAL the Turian Fleet, As in somewhere around 30+. And this is all forgetting that A). I beleive the Elcor have one or two. and . The Terminus Fleet is filled with God only knows how many ships, both large and small, and any single one of them could be an illegal dreadnought. And even if it's not, support ships win wars just as much as Dreadnoughts.

Okay i was wrong on the Quarian count and you are absolutely right on the support ships, but on that matter it has only been Sovreign class reapers I factored into it as opposed to the Dreadnoughts, there are still the Destroyer class reapers of which there are probably far more as well as the Occulus fighter drones both of which would be in direct opposition to the support ships.

But we dont the exact factors in the support ships neither in the Reaper side or Alliance, it is really only on the Dreadnoughts we can make a rough estimate on based on our knowledge on how many cycles has at least passed opposed to the Alliance.

Even by factoring in the things you mentioned, we still also have to substract losses up to that point (on both sides, but considering the Reapers have been winning those numbers are probably not in Allaince favor) then going by the 3 to 1 ratio of Dreadnoughts vs Sovreign class Reapers the numbers are again not in Alliance favor in a conventional fight.

Also I am well aware of the Thanix cannons effectiveness, but even if they make it more like a 2 to 1 ratio (a optimistic view if you ask me) on the Dreadnought count, the numbers while better are still not in Alliance favor.

(Note I use "Alliance" simply to denote all the races allied, I know it is really the term solely for the humans)

[BladyMZ]

It's all fine and dandy, we can look at rubble all day long and speculate, but how having low EMS fits into IT? It may have been answered before, but I really don't want to read 1982 pages.

Here is a link to a clip showing what happens if your EMS is low -

www.youtube.com/watch

so Starchild gives Shepard no choice, lets him destroy the Reapers - whait what, IT states, that the Reapers are trying to make Shepard choose Synthesis or Control?

Modifié par BladyMZ, 03 mai 2012 - 11:02 .

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Alright, lots of images, sorry for long post, make sure you right click view full size if needed. Just to make sure I don't make a Complete ass of myself I looked up some rebar images for comparison sake:





The rebar you see in London is much darker and probably rustier yes but still the same contrustion method of rebar... I think.

Arian, exhibit A:



B:



You can see these are wires held closley together by bands of a metallic material. Not only that it's very Reaper-like coloring (brightened or not),

C:



D:



To your point of Geth and Reaper cables being much thicker than the ones we see in Shepard's Breath, the Reaper cables shown on the Citadel can be seen at various thickness and scale, there is other Reaper cable in the game but these are the only screenshots I managed to take. On Earth I beleive there is some Reaper cable in parts of the Beam structure, but I'd have to play through again to be sure.

I 99% believe the Breath scene takes place on Earth in a pile of London rubble with bits of Reaper tech thrown about, Reaper Cables included. The 1% will be cleared up with EC I hope and not another 200 views of Shepard's breath my eyes can't take it.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

BladyMZ wrote...

It's all fine and dandy, we can look at rubble all day long and speculate, but, how having low EMS fits into IT? I may have been answered before, but I really don't want to read 1982 pages.

Here is a link to a clip showing what happens if your EMS is low -

www.youtube.com/watch

so Starchild gives Shepard no choice, lets him destroy the Reapers - whait what, IT states, that the Reapers are trying to make Shepard choose Synthesis or Control?

First of you get Control at low EMS if you did not destroy the collector base.

Secondly popular opinion is that on low EMS the Reapers/Harbinger is simply not bothering that much with getting Shepard Indoctrinated due to the sole fact that the Reapers have practically already won.

[Rifneno]

iggy1eco wrote...

It seems even EDI confirms the theory or the likeness of multiple possible universes. The ocasional space-time travel shouldn't surprise me, however I'm glad they used it just once or twice in the games. Maybe hundreds of thousands of years ago someone unleashed the reapers from another dimension and that's why they ocasionaly are 'traped' in dark space because they can't even reach another galaxy to settle for good, so they come milking the milky way over and over for some "excuse that we can't comprehend".

Ok, now that's my head calling for some sleep I guess.

Eh...Milking the Milky Way. See what I did there? Naaah....forget it.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the Reapers turned out to be from another dimension. I've never bought the excuse that they need to go way out into intergalactic space. They could hide just as well within the Milky Way. Bioware even acknowledges that with the heretic geth station. Anyway, I'll digress before I do my usual 4 page tangent on that topic... the only reason I doubt they come from another dimension is because that's the kind of trope that they've been trying to avoid using in Mass Effect.

balance5050 wrote...

No, you are just being propelled at insanely fast speeds inside a space/time corridor. By teleporting I mean dissapearing from one spot and reappearing in another, ala Star Trek's teleportation deck. Relays ALWAYS need a partner relay, to open these corridors. Mass Effect Wiki:

"There are two kinds of mass relay, primary and secondary. Primary relays can propel a ship thousands of light years but only link to one other relay, its "partner". Secondary relays can link to any other relay over shorter distances, only a few hundred light years."

There is NO receiving relay in the ending scene.

It's kind of amusing that such a massive plot hole went unnoticed by the community for so long. I guess there's just so damn much wrong with the "ending" that we just glossed over that.

As for the Conduit in ME1, I suppose it's possible it worked within what we've told about the relays. What it really comes down to is that there can't be any solid object between the two points. The Conduit on Ilos was outdoors and the one on the Citadel... *sigh* honestly, I can't remember if the Presidium is encapsulated by anything solid. But I'll give it the benefit of the doubt.

BleedingUranium wrote...

They were never really trapped in dark space, the just didn't have a relay to take them back into the galaxy after ME1.

This bit of lore bears repeating. The reason we assumed they were trapped out there is because regular FTL travel causes a static electricity build up. If not discharged on a planet, it eventually fries the ship. So we assumed they couldn't fly back with FTL because they'd reach critical charge before they got here. Turns out the joke was on us: that static electricity thing is a design flaw they purposely left in the technology they leave behind for organics to find and reverse engineer. Reapers themselves use a more advanced version that doesn't have that flaw. Whoops!

balance5050 wrote...

Ok get this:

"The relays are made of an unknown but incredibly resilient material, the same material that the Citadel is built from, and are protected by a quantum shield that renders them nearly impervious to damage by locking their structure in place at the subatomic level. They are even capable of surviving a supernova's wake without being damaged."

So if the Citadel is made from the same stuff that can withstand the wake of a super nova, it sure does crumble easily if we are to believe the "Shepard Alive" scene is actually on the Citadel.

Christ, I'm really lore nerding it up today. <sigh> Whoever wrote that part of the article either misunderstood the information, or used poor wording in their explanation. They're refering to the Mu Relay, which got tossed a number of light years by a supernova. And while quantum shielding can withstand a ****ton of damage, the Mu Relay did not withstand a supernova and it's unlikely it could. It was only somewhat near the star that went supernova. It wasn't hit by the direct blast but rather the shockwave.

Though yes, from what we know about quantum shielding, the Citadel was taking a lot more damage than it should have.

That we know of. The Reapers have been reaping for about at least 37 million years. That's about 740 cycles. Imagine everything in the ME universe (in our cycle) now imagine about 740 unique cycles before us, maybe more advanced, maybe less, but all with spaceflight. Now imagine they all died. That's pretty depressing.

Ready for it to get more depressing? Replace 37 million with 1 billion.

pirate1802 wrote...

Watching the return of the fleets to the sol relay, we do see a reaper's arms ripped off in that battle; I think we can defeat the reapers conventionally provided we have a large enough fleet.

If by "large enough" you mean hundreds of thousands of times larger than the combined force of every species' militia, then yeah. Probably millions of times larger, but I'll be optimistic.

As mentioned above, the Reapers have been at it for at least a billion or so years. That's 20,000 cycles. Add to that one of the writers said that the Reapers don't usually lose even one capital ship per cycle. Now we're at a lowball number of approx. 10,000 capital ships and that's assuming they only make one capital ship out of the species they pick per cycle. Now factor in that there's also destroyers, which "make up the bulk of the Reaper horde." So there's way the hell more of those than there are capital ships, which we've already lowballed at 10,000.

Sten, what do your estimate their chances at?



Thanks, Sten.

[BladyMZ]

BladyMZ wrote...

It's all fine and
dandy, we can look at rubble all day long and speculate, but, how having
low EMS fits into IT? I may have been answered before, but I really
don't want to read 1982 pages.

Here is a link to a clip showing what happens if your EMS is low -

www.youtube.com/watch

so
Starchild gives Shepard no choice, lets him destroy the Reapers - whait
what, IT states, that the Reapers are trying to make Shepard choose
Synthesis or Control?

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
First of you get Control at low EMS if you did not destroy the collector base.

Secondly
popular opinion is that on low EMS the Reapers/Harbinger is simply not
bothering that much with getting Shepard Indoctrinated due to the sole
fact that the Reapers have practically already won.

Already won? He picked Destroy, every Reaper is DEAD. How is that them "not bothering that much with Shepard"? I enjoyed reading IT when it sprung to life, watched that Angry Joe movie about it two times, watched the "Official" clip about IT three times, and yet, it just doesn't stick anymore. Grasping at straws/rebars is just illlogical at that point. I don't want to be a Messiah, it's just I've been a fan of Metal Gears Solid 2, I've read a ton of great theories and watched people analyze the game in a million ways. Sadly, it was all worthless, because the series retconned-ignored-changed canon so many times it never ever mattered. IT is a great way to speculate, but come on, it is like a religion at this point - you either believe it or not, don't need to post screenshots of rubble and rebars.

Modifié par BladyMZ, 03 mai 2012 - 11:20 .

[DJBare]

Wyatt Shepard wrote...

Except there is. The Conduit from ME 1 is essentially teleportation. It sent a tank with three crew men inside froma  planet on the other side of the galaxy into the station. And the Mass Relays are essentially teleportation devices, instantly moving ships from one start system to the next. I took the "beam" in London to be no different from the Conduit.

Teleportation is the disassembling of matter at the sub atomic level and transmitting to a receiver to be reassembled, the conduit/relays reduce the mass of a craft and sling shots the craft, it only looks like teleportation because the travel time is "almost" instantaneous, there is still a finite travel time, there can be nothing in the path, if I remember correctly there is codex entry that states a relay will not activate if any object is within the corridor and only one craft at a time can enter the corridor, it will not allow another craft to enter the corridor until the first has reached it's destination and moved out of the way.

[Arian Dynas]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Alright, lots of images, sorry for long post, make sure you right click view full size if needed. Just to make sure I don't make a Complete ass of myself I looked up some rebar images for comparison sake:





The rebar you see in London is much darker and probably rustier yes but still the same contrustion method of rebar... I think.

Arian, exhibit A:



B:



You can see these are wires held closley together by bands of a metallic material. Not only that it's very Reaper-like coloring (brightened or not),

C:



D:



To your point of Geth and Reaper cables being much thicker than the ones we see in Shepard's Breath, the Reaper cables shown on the Citadel can be seen at various thickness and scale, there is other Reaper cable in the game but these are the only screenshots I managed to take. On Earth I beleive there is some Reaper cable in parts of the Beam structure, but I'd have to play through again to be sure.

I 99% believe the Breath scene takes place on Earth in a pile of London rubble with bits of Reaper tech thrown about, Reaper Cables included. The 1% will be cleared up with EC I hope and not another 200 views of Shepard's breath my eyes can't take it.

Ok.. ok, you've made your point, no need to go Perry Mason on me. I do see the smaller cables within the cable in that shot.

As for the subject of destroying the war, I will agree with Rifneno. Our chances of winning a conventional war are not good. Conventionally speaking, our only hope would be geurilla warfare at best, which admittedly was shown to be effective, being able to zip rings around the reaper forces.

Unfortunately, Bioware built up too big a foe to NOT need to work in a superweapon.

And as for the teleportation thing, one thing I do recall is that the majority of Mass Relays will not activate if something is in the way of the corridor, unless it is occupying said corridor. Hmm... now why would that be... oh yea, right, so we can't use them as a weapon.

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 03 mai 2012 - 11:32 .