57139 réponses à ce sujet

[HellishFiend]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with Sten on the allied forces' chances of winning the war conventionally. His trademark eloquent elaboration is highly appropriate in this case.

[HellishFiend]

Arian Dynas wrote...



Unfortunately, Bioware built up too big a foe to NOT need to work in a superweapon.

Not true. Have you ever seen Babylon 5? Someone made a thread about it just yesterday in fact. Yes, this is a different situation from B5 considering we are up against just one group of super ancient insurmountable forces instead of two that happen to be at odds with each other, but the fact of the matter is that in sci fi there are ways to overcome insurmountable forces that dont involve superweapons or some other type of brute force. B5 is highly regarded as one of the best examples of well-written science fiction, in no small part due to the fact that the plot rarely, if ever, relies on plot twists or using simple, cheesy plot devices in order to resolve or tie up storylines. 

In the end, I think Bioware will come through in similar fashion. 

[gunslinger_ruiz]

@Arian Dynas
I didn't want to go into such detail but I've seen that breath scene too many times to believe that its rebar. It's too.... too...Reaper? I guess. Honestly, I could be wrong, we could both be wrong, we really won't know until Bioware throws it at our faces.

As for fighting the Reapers conventionally, I think it's possible but chances are slim to none. You'd have to be really lucky on top of having a perfect strategy. Unless of course someone figures out how to stun the Reapers like they did Sovereign, then they've got the war won.

[Arian Dynas]

HellishFiend wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...



Unfortunately, Bioware built up too big a foe to NOT need to work in a superweapon.

Not true. Have you ever seen Babylon 5? Someone made a thread about it just yesterday in fact. Yes, this is a different situation from B5 considering we are up against just one group of super ancient insurmountable forces instead of two that happen to be at odds with each other, but the fact of the matter is that in sci fi there are ways to overcome insurmountable forces that dont involve superweapons or some other type of brute force. B5 is highly regarded as one of the best examples of well-written science fiction, in no small part due to the fact that the plot rarely, if ever, relies on plot twists or using simple, cheesy plot devices in order to resolve or tie up storylines. 

In the end, I think Bioware will come through in similar fashion. 

To be honest, I (and I will likely be hung for this) have no real intention of watching Babylon 5, so inform me, how could they have won in such a dire suitation, without the benefit of numbers, superior tactics, technology or a doomsday weapon?


Aso, I have decided on one possibiity that the Crucible may have. It doesn't directly kill the reapers, but it does drop their shields, without which, they;re sitting ducks. We'd end up inflicting a telling loss, nearly wiping them out, due to the fact that the largest part of the force is on Earth. War would be far from over, but we'd have survival all sewn up at least.

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 03 mai 2012 - 11:52 .

[lex0r11]

Arian Dynas wrote...


To be honest, I (and I will likely be hung for this) have no real intention of watching Babylon 5, so inform me, how could they have won in such a dire suitation, without the benefit of numbers, superior tactics, technology or a doomsday weapon?


Aso, I have decided on one possibiity that the Crucible may have. It doesn't directly kill the reapers, but it does drop their shields, without which, they;re sitting ducks. We'd end up inflicting a telling loss, nearly wiping them out, due to the fact that the largest part of the force is on Earth. War would be far from over, but we'd have survival all sewn up at least.

Uh oh, spoiler alert! Never watched it either, sounds interesting.

And I like the idea to pull a "Independence Day" on their reaper asses. That would explain why the Synthesis ending doesn't really destroy the relays, which are reaper tech too.


Oh, hai guys. Anything interesting besides this?

Edit
Scratch synthesis, it was the control ending

Modifié par lex0r11, 03 mai 2012 - 12:22 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

BladyMZ wrote...

BladyMZ wrote...

It's all fine and
dandy, we can look at rubble all day long and speculate, but, how having
low EMS fits into IT? I may have been answered before, but I really
don't want to read 1982 pages.

Here is a link to a clip showing what happens if your EMS is low -

www.youtube.com/watch

so
Starchild gives Shepard no choice, lets him destroy the Reapers - whait
what, IT states, that the Reapers are trying to make Shepard choose
Synthesis or Control?

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
First of you get Control at low EMS if you did not destroy the collector base.

Secondly
popular opinion is that on low EMS the Reapers/Harbinger is simply not
bothering that much with getting Shepard Indoctrinated due to the sole
fact that the Reapers have practically already won.

Already won? He picked Destroy, every Reaper is DEAD. How is that them "not bothering that much with Shepard"? I enjoyed reading IT when it sprung to life, watched that Angry Joe movie about it two times, watched the "Official" clip about IT three times, and yet, it just doesn't stick anymore. Grasping at straws/rebars is just illlogical at that point. I don't want to be a Messiah, it's just I've been a fan of Metal Gears Solid 2, I've read a ton of great theories and watched people analyze the game in a million ways. Sadly, it was all worthless, because the series retconned-ignored-changed canon so many times it never ever mattered. IT is a great way to speculate, but come on, it is like a religion at this point - you either believe it or not, don't need to post screenshots of rubble and rebars.

If it is all Indoctrination aka in Shepards head from the moment he is knocked down then picking Destroy will do nothing to the Reapers, it is simply Shepard holding on to his beliefs and breaking free of Indoctrination.

Essentially the battle is still raging while Shepard lies in the rubble and Destroy means you get up and finish the fight while the two others means you rise Indoctrinated (it is a bit more complicated, but that is the gist of it)

At low EMS when Sheaprd is knocked down by Harby´s beam Harbinger dont put to much effort into the visions or similar because Shepard and by extensions all the races ahve allready lost. It dosent ma:pinched:tter if Shepard gets up again or not, the Reapers, the fleet and probably the Crucible is obliterated by the vastly superior Reaper force. Even if Shepard gets up all he would pobably see is Harbinger looming over him and then remak "Shepard you disappoint me" before blasting Shepard dead.

[Rifneno]

BladyMZ wrote...

Already won? He picked Destroy, every Reaper is DEAD. How is that them "not bothering that much with Shepard"? I enjoyed reading IT when it sprung to life, watched that Angry Joe movie about it two times, watched the "Official" clip about IT three times, and yet, it just doesn't stick anymore. Grasping at straws/rebars is just illlogical at that point. I don't want to be a Messiah, it's just I've been a fan of Metal Gears Solid 2, I've read a ton of great theories and watched people analyze the game in a million ways. Sadly, it was all worthless, because the series retconned-ignored-changed canon so many times it never ever mattered. IT is a great way to speculate, but come on, it is like a religion at this point - you either believe it or not, don't need to post screenshots of rubble and rebars.

I'm not sure what's more ridiculous, the tired stereotype that fans theorizing on a piece of fiction is like a religion, or the "logic" that you can dismiss the writing as bad based on bad writing from different writers at a different company. "I got food poisoning when I ate at Denny's, so this celery from the supermarket will give me e'coli. It's so obvious! I mean all food is exactly the same."

Arian Dynas wrote...

To be honest, I (and I will likely be hung for this) have no real intention of watching Babylon 5, so inform me, how could they have won in such a dire suitation, without the benefit of numbers, superior tactics, technology or a doomsday weapon?

Aso, I have decided on one possibiity that the Crucible may have. It doesn't directly kill the reapers, but it does drop their shields, without which, they;re sitting ducks. We'd end up inflicting a telling loss, nearly wiping them out, due to the fact that the largest part of the force is on Earth. War would be far from over, but we'd have survival all sewn up at least.

Just let it be known when it comes to pass that I so called it.

[HellishFiend]

Yeah, I cant go into the details of B5's ending, because there may be some readers that haven't watched it that will yet watch it some day. I can say this though, the target audience for the ME trilogy is very similar to the target audience for B5, meaning a fan of one would likely also be a fan of the other. Both display a mastery of storytelling and character development within their medium.

[Rosewind]

Never watched a episode of it in my life.

[Salient Archer]

BladyMZ wrote...

BladyMZ wrote...

It's all fine and
dandy, we can look at rubble all day long and speculate, but, how having
low EMS fits into IT? I may have been answered before, but I really
don't want to read 1982 pages.

Here is a link to a clip showing what happens if your EMS is low -

www.youtube.com/watch

so
Starchild gives Shepard no choice, lets him destroy the Reapers - whait
what, IT states, that the Reapers are trying to make Shepard choose
Synthesis or Control?

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
First of you get Control at low EMS if you did not destroy the collector base.

Secondly
popular opinion is that on low EMS the Reapers/Harbinger is simply not
bothering that much with getting Shepard Indoctrinated due to the sole
fact that the Reapers have practically already won.

Already won? He picked Destroy, every Reaper is DEAD. How is that them "not bothering that much with Shepard"? I enjoyed reading IT when it sprung to life, watched that Angry Joe movie about it two times, watched the "Official" clip about IT three times, and yet, it just doesn't stick anymore. Grasping at straws/rebars is just illlogical at that point. I don't want to be a Messiah, it's just I've been a fan of Metal Gears Solid 2, I've read a ton of great theories and watched people analyze the game in a million ways. Sadly, it was all worthless, because the series retconned-ignored-changed canon so many times it never ever mattered. IT is a great way to speculate, but come on, it is like a religion at this point - you either believe it or not, don't need to post screenshots of rubble and rebars.

Here's a link to my rather hefty post from page 1976 social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9727423/1976#11828525, maybe it will give you a deeper insight (or just waste more of your time)

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Rifneno wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

To be honest, I (and I will likely be hung for this) have no real intention of watching Babylon 5, so inform me, how could they have won in such a dire suitation, without the benefit of numbers, superior tactics, technology or a doomsday weapon?

Aso, I have decided on one possibiity that the Crucible may have. It doesn't directly kill the reapers, but it does drop their shields, without which, they;re sitting ducks. We'd end up inflicting a telling loss, nearly wiping them out, due to the fact that the largest part of the force is on Earth. War would be far from over, but we'd have survival all sewn up at least.

Just let it be known when it comes to pass that I so called it.

Hehe I personally go for a bit of middle ground between those two.

Knowing the Citadel is a Mass Relay of epic propotions I theorize that the Crucible might turn the Citadel into a giant mass accelerator cannon capable of propelling ship wreckages and maybe even Reaper destroyers at high speed into the other Reapers for devastating effect.

[Rifneno]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Hehe I personally go for a bit of middle ground between those two.

Knowing the Citadel is a Mass Relay of epic propotions I theorize that the Crucible might turn the Citadel into a giant mass accelerator cannon capable of propelling ship wreckages and maybe even Reaper destroyers at high speed into the other Reapers for devastating effect.

I think the most fun way would be somehow reprogramming the Omega 4 relay so it tosses them into the supermassive black hole. That damn thing is always there in the background at the end of ME2, mocking me with its supermassiveness.

[Salient Archer]

Simon_Says wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

DING DING DING I R WINNRAR

In other news, literalists still can't explain how Anderson getting shot by TIM raises the EMS limit required for Shepard to survive by a thousand.

Holy crap, I just though this was some crazy notion a friend of mine came up with. So it has been confirmed that TIM shotting Anderson actually raise the limit that Shepard must reach to unlock "the breath" scene?

[Rosewind]

Rifneno wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Hehe I personally go for a bit of middle ground between those two.

Knowing the Citadel is a Mass Relay of epic propotions I theorize that the Crucible might turn the Citadel into a giant mass accelerator cannon capable of propelling ship wreckages and maybe even Reaper destroyers at high speed into the other Reapers for devastating effect.

I think the most fun way would be somehow reprogramming the Omega 4 relay so it tosses them into the supermassive black hole. That damn thing is always there in the background at the end of ME2, mocking me with its supermassiveness.

Was thinking that as well, but you probly need to reprogram more then the O4 relay.

[Rosewind]

Salient Archer wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

DING DING DING I R WINNRAR

In other news, literalists still can't explain how Anderson getting shot by TIM raises the EMS limit required for Shepard to survive by a thousand.

Holy crap, I just though this was some crazy notion a friend of mine came up with. So it has been confirmed that TIM shotting Anderson actually raise the limit that Shepard must reach to unlock "the breath" scene?

If you let TIM shoot him it bumps it up from 4k to 5k

[Salient Archer]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Salient, you have lived up to your name. I tip my hat to you. Very well written and reasoned.

But a few things you did forget. In addition to the temperature from an explosion, as well as the kinetic impact from Shepard's velocity, there is the problem with pressure waves from the explosion (if there is air where the choice takes place) in which case his lungs would burst like waterballons. Or if there is no air there, that presents entirely different problems.

And also the fact that the explosion, to rend quantum shielded material would need to be measured in excess of GIGATONS of TNT, which is to say, more than enough to make the Tsar Bomba look like a firecracker by comparison.

And personally I would argue that maintaining the Collector base is less "Lost the will to do the right thing" and more "Is capable of seeing the other side of the issue and is coming around to their thinking." He's starting to think like the enemy, and is basically slowly turning against that iron hard core of anathema that he held for the Reapers for more than 3 years, meaning his resolve to see them destroyed was weakened.

Thanks Arian, I knew there must have been a few things I had let slip, damn those pesky pressure waves messing up the literalists and their theories. 

Which makes me wonder also, if Shepard could withstand the blast of something around ... hmm, I don’t know somewhere between 1,000,000,000 and 5,000,000,000 tons of trinitrotoluene ... than how did he also survive his rather lengthy 380,000 kilometer ( 236,121 miles) trip through space? Considering that even traveling the whole journey at a safe atmospheric reentry speed of 27,358kph (17,000mph) it would still take Shepard 13 hours to reach earth.

This might be a slight issue for someone without a high quality breathing apparatus and pressurized suit and considering trying to breath in a vacuum is impossible and exposure to a vacuum for longer than 10 seconds generally causes the individual to pass out, I don’t see how Shepard will be able to maintain his self propelled space flight. 

I’m of course not mentioning the fact that prolonged exposure to a vacuum (anything longer than 10 seconds) normally leads to paralysis, convulsions, some more paralysis and heart murmurs. I definitely haven’t mentioned that after 50 more seconds or so no actual circulation of blood is possible anymore, which is a real bother for anyone who would like to take a deep breath once they’ve magically survived a 388km (240 mile) drop to the ground.

As for what you've said about the collector base; I must admit having someone articulate it the way you have (Ok, you had me at 'anathema') I must say that I now do agree with what you're saying.

Edit: Fixed formatting.

Modifié par Salient Archer, 03 mai 2012 - 01:07 .

[Salient Archer]

TheConstantOne wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

*snip*

So, that’s my rant out of the way! I’d love to hear thought and opinions from either side of the IT camps

Pretty well reasoned.  A lot of thoughts of this variety were going around WAAAAAYYYYYYY back in the beginning.  I think greywardencommander had a pretty similar interpretation as you.

My problem with conventional IT's take on the control ending is this: as you said, it IS a possible low EMS choice for those who kept the collector base.  I have a different take on it then you do. What if Shepard figured that whatever evil the illusive man would cause with the tech was better than outright extinction?  Fight the Reapers first and then worry about Cerberus? Shepard's resolve to destroy the Reapers was so great that s/he was willing to sacrifice lives to make sure that they could be stopped.  That suggests a *higher* default resolve to me, not lower.  So why make the default choice control=complete indoctrination?

So I have two counter arguments for you to think about.  They come from both my literalist side and my IT side

Literalist: The biggest difference the base makes in the game is whether the Reaper Heart or Brain is in the Crucible.  Since those different components lead to different default choices, is it not logical to assume that the Crucible's construction plays a role in the order the choices are presented?

IT alternative: What if the Illusive Man/Anderson scene was really the indoctrination scene?  Once Reaper Bieber's scene comes up, Shepard WILL escape indoctrination.  Perhaps the 3 choices offer 3 different ways out of indoctrination, each having different end consequences: a good/bad flavor for control and destroy and one single variety for synthesis?

Let me know what you think 

Hi TheConstantOne, thanks heaps for your reply, insight and input. I will get back with a response tomorrow, I'm just too tired to give you an answer with the deliberation it deserves... but I will write one soon.

[ZerebusPrime]

HA!  I knew there was something about Coates' face that was bugging me.  It just looked so strangely treacherous.

Auralius Carolus wrote...

^^^ Can't Escape a Gun Nut's eye ^^^

Oh, and if the voice actors/plot roles are the same then...

    

Loghain got a hair cut...

[SS2Dante]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

So here's a fun fact I might have already mentioned. Figured this out thanks to a friend playing through ME3, non-import, 6000+ EMS, 100% readiness, less than 100% reputation. I had beaten the game a week prior, got the secret ending (shepard's breath), wasn't sure if you needed import or NG+ to get it, but kept telling him to pick the red ending once he got there anyway, without spoiling it for him. So he gets to the TIM confrontation and doesn't have the reputation to "paragon the ****" out of him," Anderson dies.

Because of this, his ONLY two options are Control and Synthesis, he didn't even get the destroy cutscene showing Anderson, the Destroy tube was empty on that side. I theorize that, if Anderson represents your willpower in this hallucination, and you fail to stop his outright execution you lack the necessary willpower to overcome Indoctrination, having no option to Destroy the attempt whatsoever. Whereas if you save Anderson, he dies anyway, but not by TIMs/The Reapers hand, and he's able to offer words of encouragement which gives you the boost in willpower that makes the Destroy option available.

OR

According to the choice system/mechanics you just don't have enough reputation points to have all 3 options available. My friend's playing through again with a fully imported character soon (still working on ME2) so we'll see how that goes.

Interesting. Did your friend save or destroy the collector base? And can we get the specific numbers of EMS and stuff? 

Did anyone else lose Anderson so we can compare this?

[HellishFiend]

SS2Dante wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

So here's a fun fact I might have already mentioned. Figured this out thanks to a friend playing through ME3, non-import, 6000+ EMS, 100% readiness, less than 100% reputation. I had beaten the game a week prior, got the secret ending (shepard's breath), wasn't sure if you needed import or NG+ to get it, but kept telling him to pick the red ending once he got there anyway, without spoiling it for him. So he gets to the TIM confrontation and doesn't have the reputation to "paragon the ****" out of him," Anderson dies.

Because of this, his ONLY two options are Control and Synthesis, he didn't even get the destroy cutscene showing Anderson, the Destroy tube was empty on that side. I theorize that, if Anderson represents your willpower in this hallucination, and you fail to stop his outright execution you lack the necessary willpower to overcome Indoctrination, having no option to Destroy the attempt whatsoever. Whereas if you save Anderson, he dies anyway, but not by TIMs/The Reapers hand, and he's able to offer words of encouragement which gives you the boost in willpower that makes the Destroy option available.

OR

According to the choice system/mechanics you just don't have enough reputation points to have all 3 options available. My friend's playing through again with a fully imported character soon (still working on ME2) so we'll see how that goes.

Interesting. Did your friend save or destroy the collector base? And can we get the specific numbers of EMS and stuff? 

Did anyone else lose Anderson so we can compare this?

He says his friend didnt import, so he had no opportunity to choose between saving or destroying the base. 

Also, I did a run through with my main save and tried letting Anderson get shot by TIM, and I still received all 3 choices. 

My current hypothesis right now is that a playthrough with poor choices and poor "tangible" assets but with a high EMS due to multiplayer could yield this scenario. I'm planning on trying it out over the next couple of days. 

[Big Bad]

Anybody else unable to access the EA servers right now?

[SS2Dante]

HellishFiend wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

So here's a fun fact I might have already mentioned. Figured this out thanks to a friend playing through ME3, non-import, 6000+ EMS, 100% readiness, less than 100% reputation. I had beaten the game a week prior, got the secret ending (shepard's breath), wasn't sure if you needed import or NG+ to get it, but kept telling him to pick the red ending once he got there anyway, without spoiling it for him. So he gets to the TIM confrontation and doesn't have the reputation to "paragon the ****" out of him," Anderson dies.

Because of this, his ONLY two options are Control and Synthesis, he didn't even get the destroy cutscene showing Anderson, the Destroy tube was empty on that side. I theorize that, if Anderson represents your willpower in this hallucination, and you fail to stop his outright execution you lack the necessary willpower to overcome Indoctrination, having no option to Destroy the attempt whatsoever. Whereas if you save Anderson, he dies anyway, but not by TIMs/The Reapers hand, and he's able to offer words of encouragement which gives you the boost in willpower that makes the Destroy option available.

OR

According to the choice system/mechanics you just don't have enough reputation points to have all 3 options available. My friend's playing through again with a fully imported character soon (still working on ME2) so we'll see how that goes.

Interesting. Did your friend save or destroy the collector base? And can we get the specific numbers of EMS and stuff? 

Did anyone else lose Anderson so we can compare this?

He says his friend didnt import, so he had no opportunity to choose between saving or destroying the base. 

Also, I did a run through with my main save and tried letting Anderson get shot by TIM, and I still received all 3 choices. 

My current hypothesis right now is that a playthrough with poor choices and poor "tangible" assets but with a high EMS due to multiplayer could yield this scenario. I'm planning on trying it out over the next couple of days. 

D'oh. Well spotted. Hmm the default option appears to be that the collector base is destroyed. 

...looking at the default choices...man. The default Shepard sucked. It would seem that, given that gunslinger is telling the truth (I trust ya ) then their must be other variables effecting the final choice aside from EMS and the collector base decision? Current understanding doesn't explain the given scenario.

Perhaps the number of squadmates alive or something. Maybe Shepard needs a reason to keep fighting? Need more data!

Modifié par SS2Dante, 03 mai 2012 - 01:23 .

[Rosewind]

No data available

[polor89]

anybody knows the what are the default choices of shepard in ME3 who lives who dies?

[lex0r11]

Rosewind wrote...

No data available

Hellooooo? Anyone? You guys still out there?