57139 réponses à ce sujet

[SubAstris]

SS2Dante wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Ok, a lot of this boils down to the inevitable truth behind all the debates, a lot of your answers say that Bioware simply didn't think much about what they were doing. You think this is likely, we do not. So um...yeah. Will try to avoid the ones that are like that, aside from the whispers one.

Taken literally, If the whispers are meant to show TIMS new powers/the indoctrination attempt by the Reapers through TIM then this implies a connection between the whispers and indoctrination. This implies a connection between the dreams and indoctrination, UNLESS (as I began with) you simply decide Bioware were lazy. I consider this unlikely, since it's very basic theming and audio design and they don't slip up like this anywhere else.

TIMS research is all stated to be about controlling Reapers/husks. Not humans with no  synthetic parts whatsoever.

Ok, the bullet wound. Here
http://www.youtube.c...czhHtqgY#t=468s

Shep shoots Anderson in the lower left stomach (I could go on about how Sheps reaction is very odd but anyway). 

And look. The second Anderson dies...
http://www.youtube.c...YwBsUgK4#t=518s

The camera makes a point to show us Shepard suddenly has the wound. Her hands are covered in blood. Shepard herself seems surprised. The whole framing of that shot is bizarre, and in IT is almost laughably obvious. Keep in mind also that Marauder Shields shot Shepard in the upper right shoulder (they made a specific animation to show this).

EDIT - snipped a bit and also, SubAstris, what's your take on the ending save information? The plotID thing?

Well I believe that IT holds BW to unbelievable levels of infalliabilty when it comes to plot which they haven't exactly shown before, esp with ME2. Yes, their characters are great, but the plot itself really came off the wheels after ME1 IMO. Most of the alternative answers for evidence put forward IT is very plausible because they take into account, much more than IT does, how games are actually designed and the limits on developers. Also, I have this impression that some IT theorists actually believe that everyone who disagrees with them only replies with saying "BW are lazy". I don't doubt they sometimes took the easier option (which is what all developers in all games do, in fact, all professionals in all professions do as well) but others can be attributed to coincidence, misinterpretation, and outright falsities and genuine mistakes etc

I believe that something like that was deliberate, the whispers were intentionally linked to TIM gaining power over Shepard using Reaper tech. Reaper tech is often associated with whispers and so it comes off as unsurprising.

True, however TIM has been studying indoc, he has implants for what purpose it is not explicitly stated, we have to go to the end to find out.

I have tried to manipulate the video to see any blood coming from one spot or the other, but can't find any. It is far from clear where the bullet actually hits. A case could be made either way. IMO it seems more logical that it hits his right- side because Anderson leans into that after being shot (you don't lean against your weaker side). But regardless, there is a 50-50 of it being hit either side, so it is far from conclusive.

When Anderson dies, if he is part of Shepard, why doesn't he himself get hurt aswell?

I know they did, but it is logical to assume that from Harbinger's beam he is hurt. He seems to be holding his left side the whole way through the entire final mission, so there's no wonder why there is a wound. Furthermore, the specific shot reminds us of Shepard's severe injuries, which become important a few seconds later when he passes out in front of the console; he is losing a lot of blood.

I'm not sure what you are getting at with your final point, "save information"?

Ok, again leaving out as much of the parts that will go circular as I can-

Anderson clutches his left side after being shot, not his right (it's OUR right, his left. Ooh deja vu, I had this exact same conversation with someone before )

Anderson always dies in this cutscene and Shepard always recieves the wound that (s)he inflicted on her/himself, so you do get hurt. Unless you mean TIM shooting Anderson? Since the TIM part of yourself is out of your control when it shoots Anderson you aren't culpable. Of course this is symbolic justification and admittedly up for debate.

The save information.Here, this is the post as quoted on parabolees blog
 

"I was looking through some save game editing plot flags and noticed that the line for End001 (Destroy) is different than End002 and End003. Destroy Sets 3 PlotIDs for the future.Not only do Synth and Control not set 3Ids. They do not even set 1.

End001,
PlotIDSet=(20894,19290,19286),
PlotIDClear=(),
PlotInts=((ID=10185,V=26),(ID=10303,V=25)),
PlotCond=())

End002,
PlotIDSet=(),
PlotIDClear=(),
PlotInts=((ID=10202,V=21)),
PlotCond=())

End003,
PlotIDSet=(),
PlotIDClear=(),
PlotInts=((ID=10203,V=22)),
PlotCond=())

I don't understand exactly how the game engine uses these PlotIDs, but from a layman’s point of view it looks like it's either;
Pick destroy, and have a future, or Synth/Control and not have a future.
Bioware does not even bother to track which one you picked if it wasn't destroy.
As far as they are concerned synthesis & control are the same thing. = Indoctrinated. "


I did a check on what plotID's are and they are markers for decisions you made (things like "KaidenAlive" etc). Flags that say what you have and have not done. So why oh why would they set two new markers that say you picked "Destroy" if this was the end of the game?

(here's a list of all the plotID's)

http://pastebin.com/zv8mxcxs 

DIT - may have misunderstood your point about Anderson leaning. It'd argue that the side he clutches is far more likely to be the side he was shot on but ok.

You will see that he is stilted somewhat by TIM's powers, it seems like he reaches for his left hand side but he never touches it, merely hovers above it and even moves his hand slightly over to the right. I'm arguing that because he falls on his right hand side, the bullet must have been there because you will always fall on your weakest side (basic physics, but I just noticed you made an amendment, so don't bother about this)

TBH, I don't really fully understand the plotID things. What I suppose is that the reason there are more options for Destroy is that in Synthesis and Control is doesn't really matter about your EMS, the cutscene is exactly the same as long as you have unlocked it, while with the Destroy option, depending on your EMS, Shep survives or not.

[balance5050]

Unschuld wrote...

marcelo_sdk wrote...

That's my point. It's not about the Geth turning to the "good" side, it's about showing that synthetics will not necessarily, as the Catalyst says, turn agains their creators.

In fact, in the Quarian-Geth case, it's more like the creators turned against their creations.

If I had a 6 foot tall toaster that suddenly asked me one day if it had a soul, I'd be pretty freaked out too. Oh, and apparently thinking toasters are not only dangerous, but illegal.

In the future:

"THAT MAN'S EATING TOAST!"

"GUN HIM DOWN!! WE CAN'T TAKE ANY CHANCES!!"

[EpyonX3]

Tirian Thorn wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

blooregard wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

blooregard wrote...


GREAT SCOTT! You've uncovered the mysteries of the universe by managing to discover that the beam in London WASN'T Prothean made like the Ilos conduit! your Nobel prize, money factory will be waiting in the parking lot with your new transformer (I  hope you like autobots because we got you both) 

Seriously though I imagine there is alot of Reaper toys we haven't seen yet like the stuff they use to make people into into bugs or most of their propulsion and power sources...What does the London conduit have to do with anything anyway? Aside from leading us to one of the most anti climatic endings of the 21st century.

ALL relays have the same design, and ALL relays need a partner relay. Why not the final conduit? It's unidetified tech but it still goes against the esablished rules of the ME universe.

(sorry for double post)

so where was the Omega 4 relay's partner again? As I've said there are probably Reaper toys we haven't seen I imagine the London conduit is a short range mass relay (like within the same system if that) and besides traditional mass relays work when the thing hitting the relay has a mass effect engine (like the mako and the Normandy) the London conduit is meant to send people up to be processed...last I checked most people don't have mass effect engines in them so the London conduit is probably just a Reaper toy that they don't show organcs before they harvest them simply because organics don't need that kind of technology.

If there was no relay in the galactic core how would the normandy have returned?

I suppose this question boils down to - what is the citadel connected to? Either the Reapers have a relay in dark space (probable given what we know) or they don't. It's an nteresting idea.

If the Collectors were coming out of the Omega relay then we can assume there was a relay at the collector base. There most likely is a relay in dark space that was paired with the Citadel.

I disagree with that - sort of. 


If there is a relay in dark space, why can’t the Reapers just jump through that?

The reason for ME1 was because normally the reaper vanguard (Soverign) activates a signal and the Reapers jump to the Citadel. This causes panic and from the Citadel they can control the relay network and keep fleets from linking up, etc.  But the Protheans sabotaged this. So instead the Reapers had to fly from Dark Space using only FTL drives. When they reached the Batarian system they were delayed again when that relay was destroyed. 

I've said this before. It's possbile that Sovereign would have emmited a blast similar to the blast we saw go through all of the relays. Only his shot wouldn't have overloaded them. This energy would have gathered enough eezo from the relays to shoot out into the dark space relay, activating it and allowing travel.

The result of this would have left the relays off since they didn't have enough eezo to operate, which is why the relays worked during their attack in this cycle. Each relay would be restored by the reapers as they crush everything from out to in, like the pattern in Vendetta's map when describing the cycle.

Modifié par EpyonX3, 03 mai 2012 - 07:01 .

[SS2Dante]

Boradam wrote...

UrgedDuke wrote...
how do we know that ending 001 is destroy?

Game files for the destroy object and file, the fact that it's the only ending where Shepard doesn't get disintergrated/indoctrinated.

Well, to be fair the second point there is speculation. 

[NeoDobby]

SubAstris wrote...

Why would he want implants if it weren't for control? He wants to control the Reapers, but general indoctrination would also be very useful

But when Anderson gets shot, it is just Shepard's psyche breaking down?

He doesn't regain any blood, he loses consciousness partly because of his injuries before waking up again

1. The basic problem we have with TIM's implants is that this kind of control is never established in the game. Yes, there is the "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL"-possibility that Harbinger uses, but at this point, the control goes completely over to Harbinger. When TIM controls Shepard and Anderson, they can still say what they want and even try to fight against TIM's control of their movement. There are only a few people who have been "direct controlled" before, the collectors and Saren (after his death), who both have been implanted by the Reapers. I think there were some people in Arrival, but I haven't played that, so I don't know how much they have been implanted or just indoctrinated. Now, you could argue that TIM doesn't have complete control, because his implants are still experimental. But at least Anderson doesn't have any implants and is free of Indoctrination.

The other possibility, which supports IT, is that it is a fight in Shepard's mind (I won't go into too much detail here because I think you have read the basic concepts of IT. If you have questions, feel free to ask). Basically, the part of his mind that has been indoctrinated in the process of the game(s), is trying to seize control of the free part. Which I think is far more likely than the face value thing.

2. I can see where you'd have a problem with this: First Anderson's wound is directly transferred to Shepard. But why doesn't he die then when Anderson dies? Let me explain it the way I understand it: Anderson says: "It feels like years since I just sat down." (Don't have the exact words right now) - The free part of Shepards mind is letting its guard down because it thinks the fight is over (in truth, it is not over, but that's explained further in the IT-sources, too).
Now I'll try to explain why you need more EMS to survive to control ending if TIM managed to shoot Anderson before: The indoctrinated part basically gains more power, Shepard's own will is weakened (I think you even mentioned that yourself before). The EMS-rating translates into the mind-fight as Shepard's will and his danger to the reapers (if you managed to collect more assets, it shows that you are more strong-willed and dangerous as when you show up with a small army).

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Why would he want implants if it weren't for control? He wants to control the Reapers, but general indoctrination would also be very useful

But when Anderson gets shot, it is just Shepard's psyche breaking down?

He doesn't regain any blood, he loses consciousness partly because of his injuries before waking up again

The implants are to control Reaper forces. The only organic that would be "useful" to control is Shepard, but all he does is try to convince Shepard that he can control the reapers. Why would controlling organics be useful against reapers? Why didn't he study the Thorian then?

Yes.

He passed out from blood loss. I wouldn't try to refute that but you can if you really want to.

Don't put it past BW, they seemed to have forgetten the plot of ME1. Such as, why not use the Conduit on Ilos, a sure-fire way to get to the Citadel rather than barging through a ton of Reaper forces?

I think it is important to make the distinction that he is not personally saying, "Shepard, go control the Reapers", but rather is saying "they can be controlled"

[DJBare]

balance5050 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

I understand that, it also gives me pause for thought, but in my opinion Shepard never made it to the transport beam, everything that occurs after the laser is inside Shepards mind that's being influenced by the reapers, choose anything but destroy and his/her indoctrination is complete.

The dreams started with black, not white, which is why I think we're still at the Mako crash.

If you are speaking about the dream border, that is there throughout the fight in the streets in my play throughs, it's visible at all times.

[HellishFiend]

DJBare wrote...

Created a comparison video to go with my echo's video, listen to this one first..

www.youtube.com/watch

Then this one...

www.youtube.com/watch

Nice work. I do think it is entirely possibile that the "echos" are actually Shepard's dream interpretation of the real-world sounds going on around him. I hesitate to site the "echos" as evidence for IT, but if IT does turn out to be true, I think it would be safe to say that is how it was intended. 

[balance5050]

blooregard wrote...

If the Reaper IFF works in the way that MyChemicalBromance thinks then the Reaper vanguard would signal the citadel to open the relay and the Reapers in dark space would have their IFF's sending a signal telling them where to open the corridor that way the Reapers can jump right to the Citadel

Besides we see the Normandy jump to FTL speeds at the end of ME2 while still in the galactic core.meaning either they used the relay in the way MyChemicalBromance suggests or they have the most badass FTL in the galaxy.

I prefer to use the Codex, the wiki, and the actual game for info personally.

The Normandy does have one of the best FTL's in the Galaxy.

If the collectors were coming back out through the Omega relay we can assume that there is one at the collector base.

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

marcelo_sdk wrote...

That's my point. It's not about the Geth turning to the "good" side, it's about showing that synthetics will not necessarily, as the Catalyst says, turn agains their creators.

In fact, in the Quarian-Geth case, it's more like the creators turned against their creations.

If I had a 6 foot tall toaster that suddenly asked me one day if it had a soul, I'd be pretty freaked out too. Oh, and apparently thinking toasters are not only dangerous, but illegal.

In the future:

"THAT MAN'S EATING TOAST!"

"GUN HIM DOWN!! WE CAN'T TAKE ANY CHANCES!!"

"But I used a toaster "oven" not a Toast...."

*Punch to the gut*

[Tirian Thorn]

My guess is that the relay in Dark Space only works when activated by “special” control from the citadel to prevent anyone from accidently jumping to dark space and discovering the reaper prematurely. 

Seth Green had a problem with possible premature evacuation once... 

[Boradam]

SS2Dante wrote...

Boradam wrote...

UrgedDuke wrote...
how do we know that ending 001 is destroy?

Game files for the destroy object and file, the fact that it's the only ending where Shepard doesn't get disintergrated/indoctrinated.

Well, to be fair the second point there is speculation. 

I was basing the second point off the cutscenes for the endings.

In both endings (Control, Synthesis) Shepard gets either vaporized or disintigrated from the controls or jumping in the beam; but in the Destroy ending Shepard blows it up and in the final cutscene if EMS is high enough he can be seen still alive.

Not speculation, it's an observation.

EDIT: Shepard is seen to be either vaporized or disintigrated from the controls or jumping in the beam.*

Modifié par Boradam, 03 mai 2012 - 07:08 .

[byne]

DJBare wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

I understand that, it also gives me pause for thought, but in my opinion Shepard never made it to the transport beam, everything that occurs after the laser is inside Shepards mind that's being influenced by the reapers, choose anything but destroy and his/her indoctrination is complete.

The dreams started with black, not white, which is why I think we're still at the Mako crash.

If you are speaking about the dream border, that is there throughout the fight in the streets in my play throughs, it's visible at all times.

If you're talking about the black at the corners, thats there throughout my entire game.

[marcelo_sdk]

Unschuld wrote...

marcelo_sdk wrote...

That's my point. It's not about the Geth turning to the "good" side, it's about showing that synthetics will not necessarily, as the Catalyst says, turn agains their creators.

In fact, in the Quarian-Geth case, it's more like the creators turned against their creations.

If I had a 6 foot tall toaster that suddenly asked me one day if it had a soul, I'd be pretty freaked out too. Oh, and apparently thinking toasters are not only dangerous, but illegal.

How can I argue with a guy that compares the Geth with "giant toasters".

Anyway, to answer your question: I understand the Quarians were scared, but I don't see that as reason to wipe out the Geth.

[SubAstris]

NeoDobby wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Why would he want implants if it weren't for control? He wants to control the Reapers, but general indoctrination would also be very useful

But when Anderson gets shot, it is just Shepard's psyche breaking down?

He doesn't regain any blood, he loses consciousness partly because of his injuries before waking up again

1. The basic problem we have with TIM's implants is that this kind of control is never established in the game. Yes, there is the "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL"-possibility that Harbinger uses, but at this point, the control goes completely over to Harbinger. When TIM controls Shepard and Anderson, they can still say what they want and even try to fight against TIM's control of their movement. There are only a few people who have been "direct controlled" before, the collectors and Saren (after his death), who both have been implanted by the Reapers. I think there were some people in Arrival, but I haven't played that, so I don't know how much they have been implanted or just indoctrinated. Now, you could argue that TIM doesn't have complete control, because his implants are still experimental. But at least Anderson doesn't have any implants and is free of Indoctrination.

The other possibility, which supports IT, is that it is a fight in Shepard's mind (I won't go into too much detail here because I think you have read the basic concepts of IT. If you have questions, feel free to ask). Basically, the part of his mind that has been indoctrinated in the process of the game(s), is trying to seize control of the free part. Which I think is far more likely than the face value thing.

2. I can see where you'd have a problem with this: First Anderson's wound is directly transferred to Shepard. But why doesn't he die then when Anderson dies? Let me explain it the way I understand it: Anderson says: "It feels like years since I just sat down." (Don't have the exact words right now) - The free part of Shepards mind is letting its guard down because it thinks the fight is over (in truth, it is not over, but that's explained further in the IT-sources, too).
Now I'll try to explain why you need more EMS to survive to control ending if TIM managed to shoot Anderson before: The indoctrinated part basically gains more power, Shepard's own will is weakened (I think you even mentioned that yourself before). The EMS-rating translates into the mind-fight as Shepard's will and his danger to the reapers (if you managed to collect more assets, it shows that you are more strong-willed and dangerous as when you show up with a small army).

Some valid points, I have answered some of them in other posts as well if you care to look

[SS2Dante]

SubAstris wrote...

TBH, I don't really fully understand the plotID things. What I suppose is that the reason there are more options for Destroy is that in Synthesis and Control is doesn't really matter about your EMS, the cutscene is exactly the same as long as you have unlocked it, while with the Destroy option, depending on your EMS, Shep survives or not.

EDIT - see Epyons comment

Modifié par SS2Dante, 03 mai 2012 - 07:10 .

[Boradam]

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Why would he want implants if it weren't for control? He wants to control the Reapers, but general indoctrination would also be very useful

But when Anderson gets shot, it is just Shepard's psyche breaking down?

He doesn't regain any blood, he loses consciousness partly because of his injuries before waking up again

The implants are to control Reaper forces. The only organic that would be "useful" to control is Shepard, but all he does is try to convince Shepard that he can control the reapers. Why would controlling organics be useful against reapers? Why didn't he study the Thorian then?

Yes.

He passed out from blood loss. I wouldn't try to refute that but you can if you really want to.

Don't put it past BW, they seemed to have forgetten the plot of ME1. Such as, why not use the Conduit on Ilos, a sure-fire way to get to the Citadel rather than barging through a ton of Reaper forces?

I think it is important to make the distinction that he is not personally saying, "Shepard, go control the Reapers", but rather is saying "they can be controlled"

I thought it was said that the Conduit was going to be deactivated prior to reaching it.

[EpyonX3]

SS2Dante wrote...

Boradam wrote...

UrgedDuke wrote...
how do we know that ending 001 is destroy?

Game files for the destroy object and file, the fact that it's the only ending where Shepard doesn't get disintergrated/indoctrinated.

Well, to be fair the second point there is speculation. 

Ending001 referes to the first part of the mission before getting to the citadel.

Ending002 is the citadel part including the decision chamber.

Ending003 is the planet that you're crew lands on.

[EpyonX3]

marcelo_sdk wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

marcelo_sdk wrote...

That's my point. It's not about the Geth turning to the "good" side, it's about showing that synthetics will not necessarily, as the Catalyst says, turn agains their creators.

In fact, in the Quarian-Geth case, it's more like the creators turned against their creations.

If I had a 6 foot tall toaster that suddenly asked me one day if it had a soul, I'd be pretty freaked out too. Oh, and apparently thinking toasters are not only dangerous, but illegal.

How can I argue with a guy that compares the Geth with "giant toasters".

Anyway, to answer your question: I understand the Quarians were scared, but I don't see that as reason to wipe out the Geth.

They refused to shut down when commanded. So they were forced off.

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Why would he want implants if it weren't for control? He wants to control the Reapers, but general indoctrination would also be very useful

But when Anderson gets shot, it is just Shepard's psyche breaking down?

He doesn't regain any blood, he loses consciousness partly because of his injuries before waking up again

The implants are to control Reaper forces. The only organic that would be "useful" to control is Shepard, but all he does is try to convince Shepard that he can control the reapers. Why would controlling organics be useful against reapers? Why didn't he study the Thorian then?

Yes.

He passed out from blood loss. I wouldn't try to refute that but you can if you really want to.

Don't put it past BW, they seemed to have forgetten the plot of ME1. Such as, why not use the Conduit on Ilos, a sure-fire way to get to the Citadel rather than barging through a ton of Reaper forces?

I think it is important to make the distinction that he is not personally saying, "Shepard, go control the Reapers", but rather is saying "they can be controlled"

Sigh, Bioware is lazy resonse huh?

It makes complete sense that they couldn't use the Ilos relay again because the place was on it's last legs anyway, the energy needed to power the conduit had all but been depleted, which is why the stasis pods failed and why Vigil was all glitchy.

TIM literally says "I need you to beleive."

"I need you to beleive."  - I see no other way to interpret that besides "I need you (Shepard) to beleive that I (TIM) can control them."

And then he doesn't even prove it.

[SS2Dante]

EpyonX3 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Boradam wrote...

UrgedDuke wrote...
how do we know that ending 001 is destroy?

Game files for the destroy object and file, the fact that it's the only ending where Shepard doesn't get disintergrated/indoctrinated.

Well, to be fair the second point there is speculation. 

Ending001 referes to the first part of the mission before getting to the citadel.

Ending002 is the citadel part including the decision chamber.

Ending003 is the planet that you're crew lands on.

*blinks*

Lol, brick wall. Ok, if you're sure of that I'll freely admit that my last few posts can be disregarded.

[UrgedDuke]

EpyonX3 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Boradam wrote...

UrgedDuke wrote...
how do we know that ending 001 is destroy?

Game files for the destroy object and file, the fact that it's the only ending where Shepard doesn't get disintergrated/indoctrinated.

Well, to be fair the second point there is speculation. 

Ending001 referes to the first part of the mission before getting to the citadel.

Ending002 is the citadel part including the decision chamber.

Ending003 is the planet that you're crew lands on.

??? how do you know that and what are you basing that on?

[Boradam]

EpyonX3 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Boradam wrote...

UrgedDuke wrote...
how do we know that ending 001 is destroy?

Game files for the destroy object and file, the fact that it's the only ending where Shepard doesn't get disintergrated/indoctrinated.

Well, to be fair the second point there is speculation. 

Ending001 referes to the first part of the mission before getting to the citadel.

Ending002 is the citadel part including the decision chamber.

Ending003 is the planet that you're crew lands on.

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, could you take some screenshots of it if you're looking at it?

[SubAstris]

spotlessvoid wrote...

@Subastris

Except this is the pro IDT forum and we have nowhere to discuss it on the bsn without getting flamed so that had made us defensive. Still, you are right that we deserve some blame. Also, never outright called you a troll. In fact, I acknowledged that you are trying to debate. Just pointing out you are not the voice of reason you seem to see yourself as, and that your constant position of IDT is impossible is getting old. Most of us are willing to concede the possibility of IDT being wrong. You however seem to refuse to entertain it even being conceivable that it's right. That's what has gotten old. It often (and i could be wrong, certainly) seems your intentions are to simply be contrarian and provocative.

The fact is, it's not a pro-IT forum just a lot of pro-ITers are here. I agree, I take back my accusation that you called me a troll, I just thought that was the implication. I realise that a lot of people here don't seem to accept extra-game evidence for one reason or another, so it is better to engage in-game evidence which is hard to refute

[estebanus]

Page 1992! Only 8 pages and we've hit 2000!

Modifié par estebanus, 03 mai 2012 - 07:11 .