57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Hihoshi101]

MintyCool wrote...


You guys are still discussing these issues?


It's sunny. Step outside. Obtain a little perspective....

Checkmate.

I am stuck at my desk at work with nothing to do but be here...

[HellishFiend]

polor89 wrote...

Kyzee wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Also, I should add that even if the universe was infinite in the ME universe, the starbrat's logic would still be wrong for other reasons (it relies on far too many assumptions and very few facts). I really would appreciate it if you guys, to some extent, would just take my word for this. I am somewhat formally educated in logic and also consider it to be a hobby of mine, and I can look very deeply into this and promise you that the starbrat's logic is wrong on so many levels that it would blow my mind if it wasn't intentional on Bioware' part.

Heck, you don't even have to take your word for it. If you made peace between the Geth and the Quarians, when the StarChild states that synthetics and organics will always fight each other, all Shepard has to do is point out the flippin' window (so to speak) at that point. Right there, StarChild's argument falls apart. It was one of the reasons the whole scene drove me made--I couldn't challenge this obvious flawed assertion.

Well if the IT is true then the starchild is part of the dream and ...you cant really argue with someone on dream you just go with it and that is what shepard did -_--_--_-

Exactly. That is my point in a nutshell (the being intentional on Bioware's part). 

[EpyonX3]

RedDeadRemix wrote...

Final push to page 2000

Hammer squads, go go go!!

*Harbinger shows up at page 1999*

"I WILL DIRECT THIS PERSONALLY"

[Boradam]

polor89 wrote...

Well if the IT is true then the starchild is part of the dream and ...you cant really argue with someone on dream you just go with it and that is what shepard did -_--_--_-

The Starchild is a reaper in touching his mind according to IT, at least that's how I understand it.

[Simon_Says]

HellishFiend wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

Dante, you're right. The Starbrat's reasoning could be sound valid. But its logic is obviously framed around a value system incompatible with our own. 

I said it before and I'll say it again: "value systems" have no business in a logical analysis. Logic is a mathematical process that determines if an argument is valid or invalid. Values are opinions and do not affect whether or not logic is well formed or poorly formed. Starbrat's logic can be picked apart and destroyed regardless of the value system or objectivity of the analyst.

But this isn't strictly logical analysis. We're analyzing the Catalyst's/Reapers' reasoning and judgment calls.

Think of it more this way.

1. Organics will create synthetics.
2. Synthetics and organics will go into conflict.
3. A singularity with unchecked growth and aggression will threaten all organic life.
4. Preserving organic life is important.
5. Reaperizing a species preserves what is important about that species and provides a better form of existence.
6. The needs of the galaxy outweigh the needs of its current inhabitants.
7. The reapers know better than anyone else and have a responsibility/authority over all other life.

Therefore the reapers must implement a plan that prevents hard-takeoff singularities from forming.

And they judgement call they decided upon was to reaperize civilizations at a certain technological level. Yes, there are numerous premises that aren’t strictly factual.

#1 and #2 are verified truths
#3 is something they don’t want to risk verifying. It’s like assuming that human civilization will not endure a global nuclear exchange. You have plenty reason to believe it and not test it out.*
#4, #5, #6, and #7 are all based on the reapers’ value system.

Obviously #5, #6, and #7 clash with our own value systems. But without further information to examine them these remain fundamentally subjective premises. They could appear correct to the reapers and incorrect to us. So from our perspective the argument isn’t sound. But it is valid. (There are strict definitions of these terms.)

Validity: A property of arguments. An argument is valid if the conclusion must be true in any circumstance in which the premises are true.
Soundness:  An argument is sound if it is valid and all of its premises are true.

I of course still don't buy it. But the possibility is open that the Catalyst was laying down the genuine reaper agenda and that it does make sense, from their point of view. And this doesn't contradict IT, since remember that indoctrination is all about altering the subject's values and perspective to align with those of the reapers.

* It actually got pretty close to being confirmed, if you remember Project Overlord.

Sorry Simon but a lot of that is just wrong. 

• If you are to judge the values/morals of a logical conclusion, first the conclusion must be logically sound. If it were strictly an opinion, that would be another matter. But what is being put up for ethical judgement is a CONCLUSION, not an opinion.
• 1 is not a proven fact. It is a statistical probability. That can be used in the formation of assumptions, but not factual conclusions
• 2, same as above
• 3  is an assumption that is derived from statistical probabilities and historical trends.
• 4-7 is all subjective, which is fine, but it needs to be PRESENTED as being subjective. Starbrat presents it as irrefutable fact, which is flat out wrong

I think that by the time the starchild's logic gets into your head for analysis, you put it in the context of an opinion, when the Starchild is most definitely not presenting it as such. He is presenting it as fact. If it were to be reworded in the manner you guys are interpreting it, that would be fine. Loosely, it would look something like this:

Starbrat: "Based on our experience and analysis, we find it likely that the created will always rebel against their creators. We have also analyzed the development trends of purely Synthetic life, and given those trends, we've concluded if a patricidal synthetic race were to reach the point of Technological Singularity, Synthetic lifeforms would supplant Organic development indefinitely. We've concluded that the safest course of action is to prevent that irreversible scenario from ever having a chance to develop."

Wording it in that fashion changes it from a fallacious conclusion to a logical one, which is then subject to ethical debate. I believe you guys are interpreting the starbrat's drivel as if it were properly worded like above, but it is not. It is worded as a factual conclusion (Like, dogs are mammals, Brian is a dog, therefore Brian is a mammal), which is inarguably fallacious since the premises are NOT FACTS.

Again, we aren't judging the values/morals of the Catalyst's conclusion. We're analyzing its reasoning process.

First off I didn't state the first two premises to be "all organic civilizations will create synthetics" and "all synthetics and organics will go into conflict". I just said that there are, have been and will be organics who will make synthetics, and that there will be conflicts between them. This has happened, many times. (Metacon War, Morning War, etc.)

And in any case, assumptions and opinions can be taken as premises for an argument. No it will not neccesarily make for a sound argument (premises are true therefore conclusion must be true), but it's prefectly fine for making a valid one (if if the premises are true then the conclusion must be true), as I had already explained. i.e. The Catalyst's arguments do make sense, if you accept it's premises as true, even if they are just opinion.

Yes, the Catalyst presents opinon and assumption as fact; opinions and assumptions that throughout the series have been demonstrated to be false. That's why it's argument is unsound, and from there we can go on to argue that it's conclusions and therefore judgement calls are wrong. But I think we can accept that it could have believed its premises, reached its conclusion, judged it's entire argument to be sound, and then acted from there.

Basically, it's not right, but it does make sense... from a certain point of view. (i.e. the reapers')

Modifié par Simon_Says, 03 mai 2012 - 10:00 .

[EpyonX3]

Double post

Modifié par EpyonX3, 03 mai 2012 - 09:59 .

[Sammuthegreat]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

really, guys, I feel kind of lost here please just tell me whether or not there has been anything new, an interview, a suspicious tweet, new evidence, stuff like that...

I get the feeling this is a no. It is a bit confusing jumping into a thread with 3 or 4 different conversations going on at once.

Anyways I'm jumping straight back out again because I'm sleepy, so I'll get my "HAPPY PAGE 2000" over and done with a bit early. Well done people, keep holding that line.

[HellishFiend]

EpyonX3 wrote...

RedDeadRemix wrote...

Final push to page 2000

Hammer squads, go go go!!

*Harbinger shows up at page 1999*

"I WILL DIRECT THIS PERSONALLY"

WE GOTTA MOVE!

[estebanus]

MintyCool wrote...


You guys are still discussing these issues?


It's sunny. Step outside. Obtain a little perspective....

Checkmate.

You do know this is a multinational forum, right?

It may be sunny where you are, but it's late in the evening where I am.

[Boradam]

EpyonX3 wrote...

RedDeadRemix wrote...

Final push to page 2000

Hammer squads, go go go!!

*Harbinger shows up at page 1999*

"I WILL DIRECT THIS PERSONALLY"

"Posts is everywhere!"

"Posting limit disabled!"

"Hold the thread!"

[Kyzee]

polor89 wrote...

Kyzee wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Also, I should add that even if the universe was infinite in the ME universe, the starbrat's logic would still be wrong for other reasons (it relies on far too many assumptions and very few facts). I really would appreciate it if you guys, to some extent, would just take my word for this. I am somewhat formally educated in logic and also consider it to be a hobby of mine, and I can look very deeply into this and promise you that the starbrat's logic is wrong on so many levels that it would blow my mind if it wasn't intentional on Bioware' part.

Heck, you don't even have to take your word for it. If you made peace between the Geth and the Quarians, when the StarChild states that synthetics and organics will always fight each other, all Shepard has to do is point out the flippin' window (so to speak) at that point. Right there, StarChild's argument falls apart. It was one of the reasons the whole scene drove me made--I couldn't challenge this obvious flawed assertion.

Well if the IT is true then the starchild is part of the dream and ...you cant really argue with someone on dream you just go with it and that is what shepard did -_--_--_-

Oh, I know. I meant during my first playthrough, when they totally got me and I chose Control. Still rather embarrassed about that. 

[BluSoldier]

polor89 wrote...

Kyzee wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Also, I should add that even if the universe was infinite in the ME universe, the starbrat's logic would still be wrong for other reasons (it relies on far too many assumptions and very few facts). I really would appreciate it if you guys, to some extent, would just take my word for this. I am somewhat formally educated in logic and also consider it to be a hobby of mine, and I can look very deeply into this and promise you that the starbrat's logic is wrong on so many levels that it would blow my mind if it wasn't intentional on Bioware' part.

Heck, you don't even have to take your word for it. If you made peace between the Geth and the Quarians, when the StarChild states that synthetics and organics will always fight each other, all Shepard has to do is point out the flippin' window (so to speak) at that point. Right there, StarChild's argument falls apart. It was one of the reasons the whole scene drove me made--I couldn't challenge this obvious flawed assertion.

Well if the IT is true then the starchild is part of the dream and ...you cant really argue with someone on dream you just go with it and that is what shepard did -_--_--_-

Exactly.  
With all the evidence in support of IT, we must defeat the anti-IT'ers.  We destroy them, or the destory us.  There's no other way!

[Earthborn_Shepard]

Ah. Ok then, thanks.

[EpyonX3]

Posts for everyone!

[Rifneno]

EpyonX3 wrote...

RedDeadRemix wrote...

Final push to page 2000

Hammer squads, go go go!!

*Harbinger shows up at page 1999*

"I WILL DIRECT THIS PERSONALLY"

Nonsense.  Harby is busy waiting in the bushes outside Shepard's place with a camera.

[estebanus]

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

RedDeadRemix wrote...

Final push to page 2000

Hammer squads, go go go!!

*Harbinger shows up at page 1999*

"I WILL DIRECT THIS PERSONALLY"

WE GOTTA MOVE!

EVERYONE!! CHARGE TO THE NEXT PAGE!!!

[paxxton]

Boradam wrote...

RedDeadRemix wrote...

Final push to page 2000

Hammer squads, go go go!!

HOLD THE LINE, HOLD THE LINE!

WATCH OUT, THAT INCOMING LOCK IS TARGETING OUR POSTING SYSTEMS!

A: God, they're all gone.
B: Did we get anyone to the beam?
A: Negative. Our entire forces decimated.
B: Retreat to the Extended Cut. I repeat...Extended Cut.

[HellishFiend]

Simon_Says wrote...

Basically, it's not right, but it does make sense... from a certain point of view. (i.e. the reapers')

It would make sense if his conclusion was properly worded. It is not. 

[Big Bad]

The fact that making peace between the quarians and the geth is so thematically at odds with what starbrat says leads me conclude that he cannot be trusted. That huge thematic discrepancy simply has to be intentional IMHO.

[EpyonX3]

paxxton wrote...

Boradam wrote...

RedDeadRemix wrote...

Final push to page 2000

Hammer squads, go go go!!

HOLD THE LINE, HOLD THE LINE!

WATCH OUT, THAT INCOMING LOCK IS TARGETING OUR POSTING SYSTEMS!

A: God, they're all gone.
B: Did we get anyone to the beam?
A: Negative. Our entire forces decimated.
B: Retreat to the Extended Cut. I repeat...Extended Cut.

Negative.

No stepping back,
No stepping forward and no defeating reaper forces!

[estebanus]

INCOMING TROLLS CLOSING IN!!!

[lex0r11]

TWO THOUSAAAAAAAAAND
*cough*



Credit for THE WALL goes to Arian Dynas.

Arian Dynas wrote...



byne - Indoctrinationist 

lex0r11 - Indoctrinationist 

GBGriffin - Literalist Apologist

Ilbountyhunter - Indoctrinationist

estebanus - Indoctrinationist 

Earthborn_Shepard - Indoctrinationist

ExtendedCut - Indoctrinationist

Golferguy758 - Indoctrinationist

Simon_Says - Indoctrinationist

HellishFiend - Indoctrinationist

spotlessvoid - Indoctrinationist

Tirian Thorn - Indoctrinationist

Emperor_Ike - Indoctrinationist

Sero303 - Indoctrinationist

IronSabbath88 - Indoctrinationist

BatmanTurian - Indoctrinationist

Uncle Jo - Indoctrinationist Cynic

Rastlin Majare 1992 - Indoctrinationist

Dwailing - Indoctrinationist

MaximizedAction - Indoctrinationist

Balance5050 - Indoctrinationist

JadeBaby88 - Indoctrinationist

DJBare - Indoctrinationist Cynic

gunslinger_ruiz - Indoctrinationist

n00bsauce2012 - Indoctrinationist

Unschuld - Indoctrinationist

Big G13 - Indoctrinationist

Hawk227 - Indoctrinationist

protognosis - Indoctrinationist

Domanese - Indoctrinationist

schneeland - Indoctrinationist

Bleeding Uranium - Indoctrinationist

Rifneno - Indoctrinationist

Nauks - Indoctrinationist Cynic

Asharad Hett - Indoctrinationist

Megumi Azusa - Indoctrinationist Cynic

NotAnotherDisplayName - Indoctrinationist Cynic

EpyonX3 - Indoctrinationist Cynic

Sammuthegreat - Indoctrinationist 

Vahilor - Indoctrinationist Cynic

Lokanaiya - Indoctrinationist

marcelo_sdk - Nonpartisan

kyg_20X6 - Literalist

Arbalor4 - Indoctrinationist

bigstig - Indoctrinationist

Big Bad - Indoctrinationist

Auralius Carolus - Indoctrinationist

TheConstantOne - Indoctrinationist

Gormane01 - Indoctrinationist

liggy002 - Indoctrinationist

Beast919 - Indoctrinationist

iggy1eco - Indoctrinationist

pirate1802 - Indoctrinationist

NeoDobby - Indoctrinationist

SubAstris - Literalist (get over it you hippie)

Arashi08 - Indoctrinationist

IsaacShep - Literalist

McWhitey3 - Indoctrinationist

Icinix - Indoctrinationist

mrfinke - Indoctrinationist

Phydeaux314 - Nonpartisan

MrRiadon - Indoctrinationist

Teddie Sage - Indoctrinationist

Eumerin - Indoctrinationist Cynic

AxisEvolve - Indoctrinationist

galaxy366 - Indoctrinationist

Dranume - Indoctrinationist

ZIPO396  - Indoctrinationist

The Savage Nympth - Indoctrinationist

Makrys - Indoctrinationist

Revan67 - Nonpartisan

Sajuro - Nonpartisan

Luigitornado - Virtualist

Sereaph502 - Indoctrinationist

Nerana - Nonpartisan

Xellith - Nonpartisan

Foulpancake - Nonpartisan

Doomhams - Indoctrinationist

raeting - Literalist

Slappy Ya Face - Indoctrinationist

KingNothin125 - Indoctrinationist

Serp86 - Indoctrinationist

AgentB406 - Indoctrinationist

Kirkknight - Indoctrinationist

slyko227 - Indoctrinationist

Nobrandminda - Nonpartisan

AlCord - Nonpartisan

Aligalipe - Indoctrinationist

Gam3Ov3r - Indoctrinationist

ragewin - Indoctrinationist

movieguyabw - Literalist

Davnort - Indoctrinationist

Militarized - Literalist

FugitiveMind - Nonpartisan

Dr.Detective - Literalist

ibage - Literalist

killakidmb - Indoctrinationist

M U P P 3 T Z - Indoctrinationist

Asuka Bianchi - Indoctrinationist

Lord Nikon 001 - Indoctrinationist

SoulfulMiles - Indoctrinationist

Greed1914 - Indoctrinationist

Unender - Indoctrinationist

The Chosen Predator - Indoctrinationist

X-Frame - Indoctrinationist

kalamity116 - Nonpartisan

littleork - Indoctrinationist

XenoAlbedo - Indoctrinationist

John Locke N7 - Indoctrinationist

idunhaveaname - Nonpartisan

Adugan - Literalist

Ice Cold J - Literalist

krystalevenstar - Indoctrinationist

Odd Bet - Indoctrinationist

k8ee - Indoctrinationist

Stephanid98 - Indoctrinationist

CBGB - Indoctrinationist

RedDeadRemix - Indoctrinationist

Manou1 - Indoctrinationist

iSpitfireee - Indoctrinationist

MPSai - Nonpartisan

Madcat124 - Nonpartisan

Pasicrates - Indoctrinationist

Ariaya - Indoctrinationist

thavleifrim - Indoctrinationist

MrChowderClam - Nonpartisan

TheProfessor234 - Indoctrinationist

Doronamo - Nonpartisan

hector7rau - Nonpartisan

magnetite - Indoctrinationist

yummysoap - Literalist

Iavosslayer - Indoctrinationist

Arlind Webb - Indoctrinationist

Sovereign z - Indoctrinationist

Ebannaw1 - Indoctrinationist

xGhost4000x - Indoctrinationist

hatori1181 - Indoctrinationist

seli - Nonpartisan

overburning - Nonpartisan

Ifeus - Indoctrinationist

CARL_DF90 - Indoctrinationist

kj0600 - Indoctrinationist

GoblinSapper - Indoctrinationist

TryckSh0t - Indoctrinationist

xDarkspace - Indoctrinationist

VictorianTrash - Indoctrinationist Cynic

Auresta - Indoctrinationist

rolson00 - Indoctrinationist

Trisskit - Indoctrinationist

aderynbrea - Indoctrinationist

fr33stylez - Literalist

mynameisdanza - Indoctrinationist

SandTrout - Nonpartisan

Loliliana - Nonpartisan

Aethgeir - Literalist 

humes spork - Indoctrinationist

Merc3ast - Indoctrinationist

Ellythe - Indoctrinationist

FoxShadowblade - Indoctrinationist

jake21221 - Indoctrinationist

CajunRexShepard - Indoctrinationist 

Sundance31us - Indoctrinationist

Humanoid_Typhon - Literalist



And, in addition, heroes we've forgotten; Beast919, First compiler of evidence, Eumerin, first Cynic to present a solid argument, Dranume, first to add evidence to the argument, humes spork, first to sugguest the Shepard Alive scene contained concrete. k8ee, M U P P 3 T Z, Odd Bet, littleork, Beast919, the first regulars, now gone. Ariaya, creator of the "Destruction hallucinations are reapers trying to make Shepard despair" theory. Magnetite, who noticed the echo to be found in  the voices, as well as the whispers in the ambient music. Kyrstalevenstar, whom first dissected the Star Child's logic.



Pages 1-10, 1900-1915



I briefly considered having a seperate list for trolls, but in the end, so long as they aren't blatantly flaming and just either dumb or capable of putting up SOME kind of argument, then I'll leave 'em on. I know, my magnanimity knows no bounds.



Also, finding some old evidence, perhaps we should dig through our own past, a bit archaeology next time we're bored., like these little gems;



http://social.biowar...27423/9#9737069 

http://social.biowar...27423/9#9736659 

http://social.biowar...27423/9#9736802 

List is going to be updated.
























I salute all of you.

Feel free to post your own "salute" pictures.

And of course Marauder Shields would salute you, but he is dead..










If someone dares to quote this WITHOUT SNIPPING, OP is going to want some heads.

Modifié par lex0r11, 04 mai 2012 - 02:55 .

[paxxton]

Am I first on page 2000?

EDIT: Second place !!!

Modifié par paxxton, 03 mai 2012 - 10:03 .