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[Beast919]

Alocormin wrote...

 The ending effectively portrays Shepard being near death, and encountering TIM who is indoctrinated.  

It also captures the unfathomable scale in that what happens is not a 'conventional' win over the Reapers.  That Shepard was in a place where technology took on the quality of magic, and he met an 'ascended' being.  Trying to explain these things in detail would fall short for the simple fact that these are unexplainable events.  

Not to say your concerns about the ending aren't justified, I share them.. sort of.  I just know its hard to end a series like this.  It's a massive undertaking and they had limited resources.  Belive it or not.

My beef with this ending isn't that its out of left field (which it is, pretty much undeniably), but that even discounting the massive list of crap we've discovered wrong with it, there's just *so* much lacking.

Let's assume you chose to destroy the reapers at the cost of Synthetic life.  Any other bioware game, any other *GAME* would have shown you the destruction of the entire Geth species as a result, and a scene with EDI being torn to shreds in front of Joker's eyes.  You would have witnessed the carnage and pain that your chocie brought you, not some lights show on the galatic map.

On pretty much every level of storytelling, *unless its a dream sequence*, this ending is worse than what a 5 year old could tell you about his dream with dinosaurs.

[AnttiV]

Beast919 wrote...
...
There are even obvious parallels between ME1 & ME3.  You are rushing, downhill, towards a beam of light taking you to the Citadel (Uh...yeah, that one is pretty obvious).  You get to the Citadel where you come to a central platform, and face down your Nemesis (In this case, TIM, obviously).  You have a chance to talk your opponent into Suicide to re-take his honor, just like Saren.  But there's no followthrough.
...

Towards a beam of light.. That is called Conduit. Really. The blue target rectangle really has "Conduit" written on top of it. It actually made me laugh. "Oh god, it's Ilos all over again!"

[Beast919]

AnttiV wrote...

Beast919 wrote...
...
There are even obvious parallels between ME1 & ME3.  You are rushing, downhill, towards a beam of light taking you to the Citadel (Uh...yeah, that one is pretty obvious).  You get to the Citadel where you come to a central platform, and face down your Nemesis (In this case, TIM, obviously).  You have a chance to talk your opponent into Suicide to re-take his honor, just like Saren.  But there's no followthrough.
...

Towards a beam of light.. That is called Conduit. Really. The blue target rectangle really has "Conduit" written on top of it. It actually made me laugh. "Oh god, it's Ilos all over again!"

LOL I did not notice that.  That's grand.

[k8ee]

Whether they planned it or not, the ending as a dream sequence testing Shepard's resolve is BW's salvation, not their destruction. Take all that random, weird dreamy stuff, have Shep wake up and hit that kill switch.

[lookingglassmind]

Beast919 wrote...

Let's assume you chose to destroy the reapers at the cost of Synthetic life.  Any other bioware game, any other *GAME* would have shown you the destruction of the entire Geth species as a result, and a scene with EDI being torn to shreds in front of Joker's eyes.  You would have witnessed the carnage and pain that your chocie brought you, not some lights show on the galatic map.

Agreed with this point.

[humes spork]

lookingglassmind wrote...

Synthesis, although being the most appealing as an option, seemed suspect to me simply because it seemed to serve the Reapers' indoctrination.

But, as a higher concept and theory, Synthesis appeals. I just can't get over the insidious potential of indoctrination that it implies.

At face value, this is true, but consider that merge is mechanically the most difficult ending to achieve. If merge was an indication of Shepard's ultimate submission to Indoctrination and the Reapers, then would it not be the easiest ending to achieve or at the very least forced upon players with the worst playthroughs as destroy is now? That's a lot of hoops to jump through just for Shepard to psychologically keel over at the very end.

Additionally, control would technically best serve Reaper interests given the Reapers continue to exist and are no longer under the control of the Catalyst, and Shepard (their greatest threat) ends up dead or assimilated into the Reapers.

[k8ee]

What it comes down to, for me, is that the only true victory is achieved when the reapers are all dead and Shepard is alive because that is the only way to insure they are truly gone. In my mind if Shepard dies, the reapers win. That's not entirely true I suppose, but that's how I feel. Any option that allows the reapers to exist seems to be indoctrination. For three games we fought to destroy the reapers, why would we let them exist?

And what's to say any of these options even really exist if harby is the one giving you the choices... in your MIND.

[omgBAMF]

Here's an idea for a new ending...

Shepard realizes the Citadel is controlling the reapers and orders the fleets to destroy it. There's no telling what reapers would so once they are no longer being controlled, but at least Bioware still gets their Shepard sacrifice without screwing over the galaxy or your squadmates.

[mupp3tz]

Another thing about the child/dream sequences... in going with this theory, we can maybe suggest that the dream sequences and the constant reminder that "You can't help me." might be an attempt to show Shepard that resistance is futile, thus breaking his determination.

[Kitten Tactics]

To me, Synthesis seems like the easiest solution for the Reapers to win, if we're going with the hallucination theory. Reapers have shown time and time again that they can insert reaper code into synthetics to make them do their will. If EVERYONE, including organics, now have synthetic symbiosis, that makes it possible to insert reaper code in to all of them.

[lookingglassmind]

humes spork wrote...

At face value, this is true, but consider that merge is mechanically the most difficult ending to achieve. If merge was an indication of Shepard's ultimate submission to Indoctrination and the Reapers, then would it not be the easiest ending to achieve or at the very least forced upon players with the worst playthroughs as destroy is now? That's a lot of hoops to jump through just for Shepard to psychologically keel over at the very end.

Additionally, control would technically best serve Reaper interests given the Reapers continue to exist and are no longer under the control of the Catalyst, and Shepard (their greatest threat) ends up dead or assimilated into the Reapers.

Yup, there you go. So, canonically, I think you've provided sound theory-based evidence that Synthesis would be the philosophically most... sound option. But, again. Not sure about BW's adherence to the importance of that lore. I'm not certain that they've allowed this philosophy into the ending.

(On a side note, my brain trips me up again -- about Synthesis actually being canonically sound -- I wonder about how it resonantes in lieu of our experiences with the geth, Heretics, Legion, Project Overlord, and EDI. Is rewriting an entire galaxy really in-line with the self-determinism and actualization that (paragon) Shepard has fought for the entire series? Allowing species to live and make choices, regardless of what those choices might mean? Synthesis forces a choice on an entire galaxy -- being re-written. Is this sound?

I mean, either way, the endings force us to make a decision on behalf of an entire galaxy, so it's really moot point, but still...)

Modifié par lookingglassmind, 10 mars 2012 - 10:45 .

[Slashout]

This being an hallucination would be great.
Because the endings are just messed up and not satisfying AT ALL. Well I'm not saying anything new here.

But a free dlc down the line with real endings? That would be sweet, but it's doubtful. To release a simple update on x360 Bioware has to pay 40 000$ to microsoft. And microsoft has a policy against free additional content, you've got to charge the player for extra stuff.

So PC players can get it for free, same on Playstation 3, but the biggest user base is on x360 right? And x360 users will have to pay for it.
So if this is ever done (and it should be) it will be free on PC/PS3 and not free on x360. Which will make half the userbase cry in outrage. Or it's not free for everyone, and the whole userbase will cry in outrage.

I don't see any good way out of this for Bioware. Unless they magically make it so it's also free on x360...

Modifié par Slashout, 10 mars 2012 - 10:46 .

[Greed1914]

Beast919 wrote...

AnttiV wrote...

Beast919 wrote...
...
There are even obvious parallels between ME1 & ME3.  You are rushing, downhill, towards a beam of light taking you to the Citadel (Uh...yeah, that one is pretty obvious).  You get to the Citadel where you come to a central platform, and face down your Nemesis (In this case, TIM, obviously).  You have a chance to talk your opponent into Suicide to re-take his honor, just like Saren.  But there's no followthrough.
...

Towards a beam of light.. That is called Conduit. Really. The blue target rectangle really has "Conduit" written on top of it. It actually made me laugh. "Oh god, it's Ilos all over again!"

LOL I did not notice that.  That's grand.

Didn't consider that but it is spot on.  And it fits exactly with how TIM was essentially Saren 2 at the end, right down to me convincing him to kill himself.

[mupp3tz]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Citadel the sole way/link for the Reapers to come to the ME galaxies? Without it, they are stuck in some black hole or something. I believe something like this was mentioned in ME2. Why couldn't we have just destroyed the Citadel, preventing them from coming back?

Someone help me out with this.

[k8ee]

The problem is, if they don't fix it they lose too much money on other planned DLC. Who's going to play that? I sure won't. Not if I have no desire to play the game again.

[k8ee]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Citadel the sole way/link for the Reapers to come to the ME galaxies? Without it, they are stuck in some black hole or something. I believe something like this was mentioned in ME2. Why couldn't we have just destroyed the Citadel, preventing them from coming back?

Someone help me out with this.

The citadel was in a sense deactivated to prevent this, but the reapers just started travelling the hard way from dark space. Took them longer, but they made it.

[lookingglassmind]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Citadel the sole way/link for the Reapers to come to the ME galaxies? Without it, they are stuck in some black hole or something. I believe something like this was mentioned in ME2. Why couldn't we have just destroyed the Citadel, preventing them from coming back?

Someone help me out with this.

Maybe because it doesn't directly answer the whole Deus Ex Machina/chaos vs. order/organics will always destroy synthetics philosophy that the ending seems to revolve around? If you destroy the Citadel, you'll still have synthetic life remaining in the galaxy. The core question will not have been dealt with. Also, it may not have been helpful to the carnage, as a general option. If you destroy the Citadel, theoretically you destroy the Catalyst as well, but does this mean that the Reapers stop their assault? I'm not certain. And, also -- an explosion that destoys the Citadel would totally f*ck Earth up.

[comrade gando]

the DLC should be free, all that money they got from sales, and use it to patch in decent endings...dammit!

[Arlind Webb]

krystalevenstar wrote...

A couple more things I thought of;

Whenever Shepard was in a dream throughout the game, his/her movement was considerably slowed while chasing the phantom child. The movement after being hit by Harbinger is at the same pace, we're just supposed to attribute it to Shepard being injured.

When Shepard reaches the child in the dreams, the child goes up in flames. The last dream also shows Shepard with the child and both of them going up in flames. This makes me feel it's foreshadowing that 'If you choose to go with the child, you will fail'. You have to stick to your guns about destroying The Reapers once and for all, even if it means sacrificing the synthetic life for the good of the galaxy as a whole. A conversation with Garrus shortly after The Citadel attack also references this, he basically asks if you would have been able to shoot VS or not. Sacrificing few to save the many.

Everything I keep reading points more and more to the fact this is an internal test of Shepard's personal resolve/attempted indoctrination by Harbinger and that we haven't fought the real final battle yet.

Very good points and finds. It does seem to me that he is fighting a battle in his mind as he chose to use the child who died in the very beginning throughout all of his dreams.

[Beast919]

k8ee wrote...

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Citadel the sole way/link for the Reapers to come to the ME galaxies? Without it, they are stuck in some black hole or something. I believe something like this was mentioned in ME2. Why couldn't we have just destroyed the Citadel, preventing them from coming back?

Someone help me out with this.

The citadel was in a sense deactivated to prevent this, but the reapers just started travelling the hard way from dark space. Took them longer, but they made it.

This - I only vaguely remember ME1's explanation of that but I remember it being on those lines - Just like the Conduit was a way for Saren to instantly travel to the Citadel and take it by storm, the Citadel itself was a way for the Reapers to launch their assault while the Galaxy was clueless.  But it wasn't  the *only* way for the reapers to get there.

Imagine though, how ugly things would have been had you not stopped Sovereign from calling the rest in.  The council would be gone, the entire alliance fleet would be gone, the Citadel would be gone - that would have been game over (and quite fittingly it is game over if you don't beat RoboSaren )

[Beast919]

Slashout wrote...

This being an hallucination would be great.
Because the endings are just messed up and not satisfying AT ALL. Well I'm not saying anything new here.

But a free dlc down the line with real endings? That would be sweet, but it's doubtful. To release a simple update on x360 Bioware has to pay 40 000$ to microsoft. And microsoft has a policy against free additional content, you've got to charge the player for extra stuff.

So PC players can get it for free, same on Playstation 3, but the biggest user base is on x360 right? And x360 users will have to pay for it.
So if this is ever done (and it should be) it will be free on PC/PS3 and not free on x360. Which will make half the userbase cry in outrage. Or it's not free for everyone, and the whole userbase will cry in outrage.

I don't see any good way out of this for Bioware. Unless they magically make it so it's also free on x360...

They've dodged that with a loophole on xbox, dodged it back in ME2.  Their "Cerberus Network" and now in ME3 "Alliance Network" are paid-for DLCs that grant access to non-paid for DLCs.  And if you bought ME2 new, or buy ME3 new now, you get a free code to activate the network.  So they're still "charging" for it, but for the majority of current customers, they get it for "free."

TLDR - If they intend to make the DLC ending free, it will be free for Xbox users who bought ME3 new.

[Xellith]

One thing that I dont know has been brought up. He goes from having hands covered in lots of blood to being next to the AI kid thing with no blood. I think it was all a dream - in which case what a total waste of time but still better than the actual implimented ending.

[mupp3tz]

Ah, thanks for the clarification, guys! Also, if the DLC problem is a money issue (i.e. Why should we have to pay more for the game ending? How much does Bioware have to pay Microsoft/EA to allow them to release it, etc.)... they could just make the download very cheap. Say... one dolla make it holla? That wouldn't be too bad. We would get the ending we wanted/deserve & Bioware is able to pay for the costs of publishing it.

ME3 sales easily reached into the millions. I don't think there'd be many who wouldn't be willing to part with a dollar to appease the situation.

[Beast919]

scyphozoa wrote...

I think this sounds like the most realistic explanation. I think after Shep and Anderson's final moments, when Shep collapses, that is when the hallucinations and indoctrination takes hold.

If its going to be a dream sequence, it better damn well start before Shep wakes up post-laser.  Nothing else fits.