57139 réponses à ce sujet

[lex0r11]

Zertz wrote...

What happens when this thread reaches 2012?

Hm, nothing really..




but the thread will have cought up to the present.

BOOM.

[MaximizedAction]

HellishFiend wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

I remember being quite the philosophic whit. Then I started studying physics and math...well, after that I didn't feel the need for philosophy, anymore.

It all ended after a prof told me how some philosoph needed 200 pages to argue why the formula for classical kinetic energy had a 1/2 in it...

It's all components in the vast equation of life. Without philosophy, mathematics would just be a universal language with no purpose. 

Well, modern mathematics is entirely build from only 12 axioms. Per definition they cannot be proven. You can say, they stem from 'logic'...

But it is a very interesting (but metaphysical) question why the universe seems to follow 'logical' rules.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 03 mai 2012 - 10:54 .

[TheConstantOne]

BatmanTurian wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

I could go on further about why Arrival actually does quite a lot to discredit IT, but it is getting late so that is all for now

It actually does nothing to discredit IT as I pointed out earler to you. Object Rho is not the first indoctrination rodeo Shepard has been in.

I'd be interested to hear your reasoning SubAstris.  I think Arrival is one of the strongest cases for IT, given Object Rho's interaction with Shepard

He just means not everyone did it so it isn't canon for every Shepard. He convienantly ignores all of the other Reaper and Reapertech interaction Shepard has experienced from Eden Prime onward.

" Tell them about that noise, (blahblah)! That awful noise!"
" It came from the ship. It was like it was drilling into my skull."
" It was probably trying to block communications."

Sure it was, Shep. Sure it was.

Ah, I see where he's coming from.  He's logging off soon apparently, so I'll wait to refute this point until he's ready. You and I are of the same mind here, no point in typing it out

[Salient Archer]

BluSoldier wrote...

polor89 wrote...

Kyzee wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Also, I should add that even if the universe was infinite in the ME universe, the starbrat's logic would still be wrong for other reasons (it relies on far too many assumptions and very few facts). I really would appreciate it if you guys, to some extent, would just take my word for this. I am somewhat formally educated in logic and also consider it to be a hobby of mine, and I can look very deeply into this and promise you that the starbrat's logic is wrong on so many levels that it would blow my mind if it wasn't intentional on Bioware' part.

Heck, you don't even have to take your word for it. If you made peace between the Geth and the Quarians, when the StarChild states that synthetics and organics will always fight each other, all Shepard has to do is point out the flippin' window (so to speak) at that point. Right there, StarChild's argument falls apart. It was one of the reasons the whole scene drove me made--I couldn't challenge this obvious flawed assertion.

Well if the IT is true then the starchild is part of the dream and ...you cant really argue with someone on dream you just go with it and that is what shepard did -_--_--_-

Exactly.  
With all the evidence in support of IT, we must defeat the anti-IT'ers.  We destroy them, or the destory us.  There's no other way!

Personally I'd like to control them or maybe even synthesise with them.

[BatmanTurian]

SubAstris wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

I could go on further about why Arrival actually does quite a lot to discredit IT, but it is getting late so that is all for now

It actually does nothing to discredit IT as I pointed out earlier to you. Object Rho is not the first indoctrination rodeo Shepard has been in.

So you think... I would like to explain why it can't really be used as evidence IMO

It's not what I think. It's what I know according to the lore of the universe the story is set in.

If we can ignore lore, then anything is possible. Reapers are made of ice cream. Krogans and Salarians are actually friends. Turians can eat human food. Asari believe in a male god. The Quarians and Geth aren't fighting a war, they're just playing dodgeball and Quarians are losing. Protheans weren't actually d*cks. The Shadowbroker was an elcor.

" With secrecy. Tell the Asari Ambassador that she will get her supplies when the payment is paid in full. Doubtfully. She will probably turn it down. Bada**fully. Nevermind, just get her d*mn credits."

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 03 mai 2012 - 11:02 .

[TheConstantOne]

MaximizedAction wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


I studied business management and information technology. If I recall correctly, Logic wasnt a requirement for either, but I was interested in the course and was able to apply it as an elective. 

I enjoyed it as well. 

Logic is a good skill to have.  I was a fan of philosophy and had friends who majored in that particular study.  So I've seen my share of elaborate arguments... sometimes over the most miniscule of matters haha

I remember being quite the philosophic whit. Then I started studying physics and math...well, after that I didn't feel the need for philosophy, anymore.

It all ended after a prof told me how some philosoph needed 200 pages to argue why the formula for classical kinetic energy had a 1/2 in it...

Hahaha the metaphysics debates are either very insightful or just.... ??????????

Arguing about what energy is-----> fair game

Arguing about why a constant shows up-----> look at the math and note the integral symbol 

[TheConstantOne]

MaximizedAction wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

I remember being quite the philosophic whit. Then I started studying physics and math...well, after that I didn't feel the need for philosophy, anymore.

It all ended after a prof told me how some philosoph needed 200 pages to argue why the formula for classical kinetic energy had a 1/2 in it...

It's all components in the vast equation of life. Without philosophy, mathematics would just be a universal language with no purpose. 

Well, modern mathematics is entirely build from only 12 axioms. Per definition they cannot be proven. You can say, they stem from 'logic'...

But it is a very interesting (but metaphysical) question why the universe seems to follow 'logical' rules.

Oh did we just open up this question?

I may have to order out dinner because I may not leave my computer for another 12 hours haha

[HellishFiend]

MaximizedAction wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

I remember being quite the philosophic whit. Then I started studying physics and math...well, after that I didn't feel the need for philosophy, anymore.

It all ended after a prof told me how some philosoph needed 200 pages to argue why the formula for classical kinetic energy had a 1/2 in it...

It's all components in the vast equation of life. Without philosophy, mathematics would just be a universal language with no purpose. 

Well, modern mathematics is entirely build from only 12 axioms. Per definition they cannot be proven. You can say, they stem from 'logic'...

But it is a very interesting (but metaphysical) question why the universe seems to follow 'logical' rules.

I'm no mathematician, but I think I know what you're getting at. Since we discovered that the nature of existence isnt at cut and dry as we once thought (gravity, time, et al), all advanced mathematics (and the sciences based upon them) can really do is operate based on assumptions that have not been disproven. 

[Nekroso22]

BatmanTurian wrote...

If we can ignore lore, then anything is possible.

You're making the argument that because the lore of Mass Effect says something could happen it is automatically valid and is fact.

[Big G13]

@Lex0r11 - Very nice page 2000 tribute.

[Rifneno]

BatmanTurian wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

I could go on further about why Arrival actually does quite a lot to discredit IT, but it is getting late so that is all for now

It actually does nothing to discredit IT as I pointed out earlier to you. Object Rho is not the first indoctrination rodeo Shepard has been in.

ROFL! Wow! I stopped even reading SubAstris' posts, I'm glad you quoted that bit. That's seriously funny as hell. Arrival discrediting IT, oh my God. Yeah, the DLC they made at the same time as ME3, in which they firmly establish indoctrination symptoms manifesting in dreams and using guilt of past "failures" to weaken the subject's will. Frickin' incredible what the literalists will convince themselves of.

Speaking of people who refuse to accept they didn't pick up on something, apparently there's fans who insist the mind**** at the end of Witcher was just people reading too much into it. I won't say what the mind**** is for those that haven't played it yet but might in the future, but wow, there's seriously no reasonable doubt as to what happened. As strong as I think IT is, the evidence for that was stronger and the counterpoints... well, they didn't exist. But apparently some people just can't accept that a writer slipped one past them. I guess that explains some literalists for ME3.

[TheConstantOne]

Salient Archer wrote...


Personally I'd like to control them or maybe even synthesise with them.

By synthesize, you want to...establish a democracy? haha

Actually, I want to remark on something my friend noticed.  He saw the ending choices a bit differently.  In his view, you aren't just choosing synthetics, organics or fusion.  You are choosing what each of these groups represent.

Destroy----> chaos rules the galaxy

Control-----> order rules

Synthesis----> chaos and order coexist

I thought it was an insightful opinion

[BatmanTurian]

Nekroso22 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

If we can ignore lore, then anything is possible.

You're making the argument that because the lore of Mass Effect says something could happen it is automatically valid and is fact.

I'm making the argument that it has already happened, therefore it could happen, therefore it is valid. Whether it is a fact or not is up to Bioware. The evidence is in its favor of being a fact, however, since it's as much a cornerstone of the series as The Force and Lightsabres are for Star Wars.

[SS2Dante]

HellishFiend wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

I remember being quite the philosophic whit. Then I started studying physics and math...well, after that I didn't feel the need for philosophy, anymore.

It all ended after a prof told me how some philosoph needed 200 pages to argue why the formula for classical kinetic energy had a 1/2 in it...

It's all components in the vast equation of life. Without philosophy, mathematics would just be a universal language with no purpose. 

Well, modern mathematics is entirely build from only 12 axioms. Per definition they cannot be proven. You can say, they stem from 'logic'...

But it is a very interesting (but metaphysical) question why the universe seems to follow 'logical' rules.

I'm no mathematician, but I think I know what you're getting at. Since we discovered that the nature of existence isnt at cut and dry as we once thought (gravity, time, et al), all advanced mathematics (and the sciences based upon them) can really do is operate based on assumptions that have not been disproven. 

Just waiting for someone to mention Russels' barber paradox...

[lex0r11]

Guys, I'm not really in a place to call for a restrain in sidetracking but you know..

Mathematics? 
Someone already calculated how long it would take with FTL to travel from earth to the nearest relay.

[HellishFiend]

Nekroso22 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

If we can ignore lore, then anything is possible.

You're making the argument that because the lore of Mass Effect says something could happen it is automatically valid and is fact.

This is directed at neither of you in particular, but I feel compelled to point out that Mass Effect "lore" as we know it is almost always presented from an in-character perspective rather than a narrative perspective. That is why we have "mistakes" in the codex like "The Citadel was built by the Protheans" and such. Even "established lore" becomes questionable when you realize it's context. 

[MaximizedAction]

HellishFiend wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

I remember being quite the philosophic whit. Then I started studying physics and math...well, after that I didn't feel the need for philosophy, anymore.

It all ended after a prof told me how some philosoph needed 200 pages to argue why the formula for classical kinetic energy had a 1/2 in it...

It's all components in the vast equation of life. Without philosophy, mathematics would just be a universal language with no purpose. 

Well, modern mathematics is entirely build from only 12 axioms. Per definition they cannot be proven. You can say, they stem from 'logic'...

But it is a very interesting (but metaphysical) question why the universe seems to follow 'logical' rules.

I'm no mathematician, but I think I know what you're getting at. Since we discovered that the nature of existence isnt at cut and dry as we once thought (gravity, time, et al), all advanced mathematics (and the sciences based upon them) can really do is operate based on assumptions that have not been disproven. 

Exactly. As does every other theory in natural sciences. It's simply not possible to prove that this is exactly how nature works. As Feynman said, when physicists study the nature, it's like we watch a giant chessboard without knowing the rules of chess. Scientists just observe...

[lex0r11]

Big G13 wrote...

@Lex0r11 - Very nice page 2000 tribute.

[BatmanTurian]

HellishFiend wrote...

Nekroso22 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

If we can ignore lore, then anything is possible.

You're making the argument that because the lore of Mass Effect says something could happen it is automatically valid and is fact.

This is directed at neither of you in particular, but I feel compelled to point out that Mass Effect "lore" as we know it is almost always presented from an in-character perspective rather than a narrative perspective. That is why we have "mistakes" in the codex like "The Citadel was built by the Protheans" and such. Even "established lore" becomes questionable when you realize it's context. 

Right but we can come to a "consensual" lore on what lore is constant. Indoctrination is a constant. Mass Effect technoloy is a constant. Reapers are a constant. Etc.

[TheConstantOne]

HellishFiend wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

I remember being quite the philosophic whit. Then I started studying physics and math...well, after that I didn't feel the need for philosophy, anymore.

It all ended after a prof told me how some philosoph needed 200 pages to argue why the formula for classical kinetic energy had a 1/2 in it...

It's all components in the vast equation of life. Without philosophy, mathematics would just be a universal language with no purpose. 

Well, modern mathematics is entirely build from only 12 axioms. Per definition they cannot be proven. You can say, they stem from 'logic'...

But it is a very interesting (but metaphysical) question why the universe seems to follow 'logical' rules.

I'm no mathematician, but I think I know what you're getting at. Since we discovered that the nature of existence isnt at cut and dry as we once thought (gravity, time, et al), all advanced mathematics (and the sciences based upon them) can really do is operate based on assumptions that have not been disproven. 

Yup, science is built off of axioms that can't be proven. Such as, "the universe has always follwed the same rules."  This seems to be the case from experiments. But it is an interesting point to take note of.  We don't really have a reason for *why* things are this way. All we can describe is the how

[NeoDobby]

SubAstris wrote...

I'm not saying there is no possibility, just that it is more likely in the context that the Rachni is talking about suffering and death rather than indoctrination. Just have a look again at the dialogue

It can be interpreted either way. The queen got signals from other Rachni which were first like oily shadows before they were hushed. Now wo don't know when they were hushed. We know that the Rachni were indoctrinated to attack, but we don't know if the voices were hushed when the Rachni were fully indoctrinated or when they died in the war.

The whole Geth consensus mission is to show how the Geth are actually peaceful beings and it was actually the Quarians' fault for their conflict . I think it is made pretty clear that it was actions of organics that led the synthetics to behave in such a way; if the Quarians had not treated them like s***, then there would be a very good chance that the two races would have lived in harmony. This is what that mission strongly implies.
ple primarily, and if they can't get the story without referring to a comic, then they have failed.

I could go on about how I think how it is not that clear, but you see my point: I think that explicit information was left out to give us something to discuss. And it worked 

I agree with the comics and books being allowed into evidence, just see what I said to someone else a few posts back about my feelings on them in relation to the main plot.

Yes, that's why I said that most of our arguments are taken from the game itself. The other info just makes it stronger.

I would take it with a great deal of skepticism. First, the fact is that DLC is meant to supplement the main plot of the game not carry it, which all the DLC (except Arrival if you support IT) does.The reasons for this are clear; not everyone wants to buy DLC because it can be ridiculously priced and others will not have access to the internet. I don't know how many people bought Arrival, but I know a lot didn't, and if Arrival is very important to IT, then you are essentially missing out on something massive, even key to understanding the plot. Now, many IT theorists might make the argument that the reason BW didn't include the actual ending was because of time restraints, however as far as I am aware, no such graet restraints existed for that DLC.

I could go on further about why Arrival actually does quite a lot to discredit IT, but it is getting late so that is all for now

As I said, I didn't play Arrival (yet?), but for the sake of the discussion, please say what it does to discredit IT as others have asked. And by that, I mean the info that can be taken from the DLC, not the fact that it as DLC shouldn't be given full attention.

[Fingertrip]

BluSoldier wrote...

Fingertrip wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Fingertrip wrote...

It makes sense

No, it really doesn't.

Wow. I'm convinced. Guys, he's convinced me IT is BS with 4 words and no argument or proof. It's amazing.

Feel free to point out where I said IT was BS. Maybe you should read where that quote was from next time.

I've actually been onboard with the IT before this thread even started fyi.

That's even more Impressive!
You managed to convince him that the IT was BS without even thinking so yourself.  Looks like we have a master debater here, folks!

What is this I dont even

[NeoDobby]

lex0r11 wrote...

Zertz wrote...

What happens when this thread reaches 2012?

Hm, nothing really..




but the thread will have cought up to the present.

BOOM.

Does that mean we will only make two posts/month from then? Or do we get to visit the future??

[Nekroso22]

BatmanTurian wrote...
I'm making the argument that it has already happened, therefore it could happen, therefore it is valid. Whether it is a fact or not is up to Bioware. The evidence is in its favor of being a fact, however, since it's as much a cornerstone of the series as The Force and Lightsabres are for Star Wars.

There is no evidence to suggest that it is fact outside of the fan conjecture in this thread. You're making the argument that you think it happened, therefore you think it could happen, therefore you think it is valid.

And again I must stress that I'm not trying to disprove the IT. It works very well by itself and could be the subject of another story set in the Mass Effect universe, but not as the ending of Shepard's story.

[TheConstantOne]

NeoDobby wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

Zertz wrote...

What happens when this thread reaches 2012?

Hm, nothing really..




but the thread will have cought up to the present.

BOOM.

Does that mean we will only make two posts/month from then? Or do we get to visit the future??

It means that we enter a paradoxical time stream that could fall apart at any moment.

Our holding the line is inadvertently destroying the fabric of space-time