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[HellishFiend]

BatmanTurian wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Nekroso22 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

If we can ignore lore, then anything is possible.

You're making the argument that because the lore of Mass Effect says something could happen it is automatically valid and is fact.

This is directed at neither of you in particular, but I feel compelled to point out that Mass Effect "lore" as we know it is almost always presented from an in-character perspective rather than a narrative perspective. That is why we have "mistakes" in the codex like "The Citadel was built by the Protheans" and such. Even "established lore" becomes questionable when you realize it's context. 

Right but we can come to a "consensual" lore on what lore is constant. Indoctrination is a constant. Mass Effect technoloy is a constant. Reapers are a constant. Etc.

Yeah, but you have to be careful how you cite the lore because of the implications I mentioned. For example, at a certain narrative point in the story, it would have been reasonable to conclude that the Reapers are trapped in darkspace because established lore dictates that FTL drives would be physically unable to make the trip. 

Again, I'm not saying either of you are right or wrong (I'm not even 100% sure what points you are debating at this stage), just reminding you that context is important when citing lore.

[TheConstantOne]

Alright, I'm off for now ladies and gents. I'll check back later and see if there's been any good ideas

[BatmanTurian]

Nekroso22 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
I'm making the argument that it has already happened, therefore it could happen, therefore it is valid. Whether it is a fact or not is up to Bioware. The evidence is in its favor of being a fact, however, since it's as much a cornerstone of the series as The Force and Lightsabres are for Star Wars.

There is no evidence to suggest that it is fact outside of the fan conjecture in this thread. You're making the argument that you think it happened, therefore you think it could happen, therefore you think it is valid.

And again I must stress that I'm not trying to disprove the IT. It works very well by itself and could be the subject of another story set in the Mass Effect universe, but not as the ending of Shepard's story.

Did you even READ what I wrote? I said whether it was a fact or not was up to BIOWARE. It can happen because of evidence that it has already happened to other characters in the same universe, therefore it is possible. Whether it actually happened is up to BIOWARE to tell US.

Please use your reading comprehension responsibly.

[NeoDobby]

BatmanTurian wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Nekroso22 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

If we can ignore lore, then anything is possible.

You're making the argument that because the lore of Mass Effect says something could happen it is automatically valid and is fact.

This is directed at neither of you in particular, but I feel compelled to point out that Mass Effect "lore" as we know it is almost always presented from an in-character perspective rather than a narrative perspective. That is why we have "mistakes" in the codex like "The Citadel was built by the Protheans" and such. Even "established lore" becomes questionable when you realize it's context. 

Right but we can come to a "consensual" lore on what lore is constant. Indoctrination is a constant. Mass Effect technoloy is a constant. Reapers are a constant. Etc.

Exactly. Just wanted to add: "The Citadel was built by the Protheans" is not lore of Mass Effect. Though one can say that "The Citadel was built by the Protheans" is information that is commonly believed and taught in the Mass Effect Universe. In total, the lore would say: "The Citadel was built by the Reapers, though it is not yet commonly known in Citadel Space, where most people believe it was built by the Protheans."

[SS2Dante]

SubAstris wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Still no literal guys want to explain to me what the importance of London is? Or at least how humanity knew it was important before the Citadel was moved there?

There doesn't seem to be any intrinsic point to it before the Citadel moves there, just happens to be an important place on Earth. I wonder you think about it

http://www.youtube.c...C70xrwE#t=1039s

"It's time we started focussing our efforts"

"Where?"

"London. Something big is happening there. Our networks in the UK say the Reapers have arrived in huge numbers"

"I don't like the sound of that. Any more details?"

"No, and that scares the hell outta me."


This conversation happens way BEFORE the Reapers move the citadel, or learn of the Crucible being made. 
Not 100% on this but I'm pretty sure he mentions London several more times. They were setting up SOMETHING in London.

[BatmanTurian]

HellishFiend wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Nekroso22 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

If we can ignore lore, then anything is possible.

You're making the argument that because the lore of Mass Effect says something could happen it is automatically valid and is fact.

This is directed at neither of you in particular, but I feel compelled to point out that Mass Effect "lore" as we know it is almost always presented from an in-character perspective rather than a narrative perspective. That is why we have "mistakes" in the codex like "The Citadel was built by the Protheans" and such. Even "established lore" becomes questionable when you realize it's context. 

Right but we can come to a "consensual" lore on what lore is constant. Indoctrination is a constant. Mass Effect technoloy is a constant. Reapers are a constant. Etc.

Yeah, but you have to be careful how you cite the lore because of the implications I mentioned. For example, at a certain narrative point in the story, it would have been reasonable to conclude that the Reapers are trapped in darkspace because established lore dictates that FTL drives would be physically unable to make the trip. 

Again, I'm not saying either of you are right or wrong (I'm not even 100% sure what points you are debating at this stage), just reminding you that context is important when citing lore.

*sigh* yes, it goes without saying that we have to refer to ME3's version of lore since it is the most updated and what is revealed to us in-game from all three games and that it is not objective. However, certain plot elements are a constant and can't be just waved away because they are inconvenient to one's argument. That is intellectually dishonest.

[arc_gabriel_]

O_O Holly!

-checks time then looks at thread page number-
Was this thread like rushed to 2006?! It wasn't that long ago I posted in 1986 well damn.

Gonna be going back to baking cookies hey I might have them done by 2012? LOL!!

[BatmanTurian]

SS2Dante wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Still no literal guys want to explain to me what the importance of London is? Or at least how humanity knew it was important before the Citadel was moved there?

There doesn't seem to be any intrinsic point to it before the Citadel moves there, just happens to be an important place on Earth. I wonder you think about it

http://www.youtube.c...C70xrwE#t=1039s

"It's time we started focussing our efforts"

"Where?"

"London. Something big is happening there. Our networks in the UK say the Reapers have arrived in huge numbers"

"I don't like the sound of that. Any more details?"

"No, and that scares the hell outta me."


This conversation happens way BEFORE the Reapers move the citadel, or learn of the Crucible being made. 
Not 100% on this but I'm pretty sure he mentions London several more times. They were setting up SOMETHING in London.

Which could lead to Coates being a traitor because he is the lynchpin in their plan and he's holed up in *gasp* London.

[NeoDobby]

SS2Dante wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Still no literal guys want to explain to me what the importance of London is? Or at least how humanity knew it was important before the Citadel was moved there?

There doesn't seem to be any intrinsic point to it before the Citadel moves there, just happens to be an important place on Earth. I wonder you think about it

http://www.youtube.c...C70xrwE#t=1039s

"It's time we started focussing our efforts"

"Where?"

"London. Something big is happening there. Our networks in the UK say the Reapers have arrived in huge numbers"

"I don't like the sound of that. Any more details?"

"No, and that scares the hell outta me."


This conversation happens way BEFORE the Reapers move the citadel, or learn of the Crucible being made. 
Not 100% on this but I'm pretty sure he mentions London several more times. They were setting up SOMETHING in London.

The way I understood it, they started building the beam then and used it to transport people to the Citadel to be processed (or whatever the beam is used for in reality and not in Shepard's dream). No one said that the Citadel must orbit earth to do that.

[HellishFiend]

NeoDobby wrote...

Exactly. Just wanted to add: "The Citadel was built by the Protheans" is not lore of Mass Effect. Though one can say that "The Citadel was built by the Protheans" is information that is commonly believed and taught in the Mass Effect Universe. In total, the lore would say: "The Citadel was built by the Reapers, though it is not yet commonly known in Citadel Space, where most people believe it was built by the Protheans."

Actually, at a certain narrative stage in the story, "The Citadel was built by the Protheans" was established lore. It was presented as fact and we, as the player, had no option but to accept it as canonical lore. 

The point I'm trying to make is that we dont have a Star Trek-style technical manual or Canon Lore Guidebook. The only lore we have is what is presented to us from our narrative perspective. As such, it is our decision whether to accept it or question it. If it were presented as a non-narrative technical manual or canon guidebook, then we wouldnt be able to question it or offer contrary speculation. 

[Nekroso22]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Please use your reading comprehension responsibly.

Certainly,

The evidence is in its favor of being a fact

That's what I was referring to.

[BatmanTurian]

NeoDobby wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Still no literal guys want to explain to me what the importance of London is? Or at least how humanity knew it was important before the Citadel was moved there?

There doesn't seem to be any intrinsic point to it before the Citadel moves there, just happens to be an important place on Earth. I wonder you think about it

http://www.youtube.c...C70xrwE#t=1039s

"It's time we started focussing our efforts"

"Where?"

"London. Something big is happening there. Our networks in the UK say the Reapers have arrived in huge numbers"

"I don't like the sound of that. Any more details?"

"No, and that scares the hell outta me."


This conversation happens way BEFORE the Reapers move the citadel, or learn of the Crucible being made. 
Not 100% on this but I'm pretty sure he mentions London several more times. They were setting up SOMETHING in London.

The way I understood it, they started building the beam then and used it to transport people to the Citadel to be processed (or whatever the beam is used for in reality and not in Shepard's dream). No one said that the Citadel must orbit earth to do that.

Yes but logically, the beam could be some kind of mass effect space elevator, which means the Citadel would have to be in geosynchronous orbit over London for it to be effective or at least within range of the island of the United Kingdom.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 03 mai 2012 - 11:33 .

[HellishFiend]

BatmanTurian wrote...

*sigh* yes, it goes without saying that we have to refer to ME3's version of lore since it is the most updated and what is revealed to us in-game from all three games and that it is not objective. However, certain plot elements are a constant and can't be just waved away because they are inconvenient to one's argument. That is intellectually dishonest.

No need to get exasperated. I went out of my way to say that I wasnt directing anything at anybody....

[BatmanTurian]

Nekroso22 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Please use your reading comprehension responsibly.

Certainly,

The evidence is in its favor of being a fact

That's what I was referring to.

That is an opinion. I never said my opinion was fact. I implied it is what end result I prefer based on how I view the evidence filtered through logic. However, Bioware is the storyteller and, as such, is the arbiter of facts concerning the story. These statements are so obvious that I'm not sure why I have to tell it to you.

[BatmanTurian]

HellishFiend wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

*sigh* yes, it goes without saying that we have to refer to ME3's version of lore since it is the most updated and what is revealed to us in-game from all three games and that it is not objective. However, certain plot elements are a constant and can't be just waved away because they are inconvenient to one's argument. That is intellectually dishonest.

No need to get exasperated. I went out of my way to say that I wasnt directing anything at anybody....

I'm not upset with you. I'm exasperated at myself that I did not make what you said clear in the first place.

[NeoDobby]

BatmanTurian wrote...

NeoDobby wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Still no literal guys want to explain to me what the importance of London is? Or at least how humanity knew it was important before the Citadel was moved there?

There doesn't seem to be any intrinsic point to it before the Citadel moves there, just happens to be an important place on Earth. I wonder you think about it

http://www.youtube.c...C70xrwE#t=1039s

"It's time we started focussing our efforts"

"Where?"

"London. Something big is happening there. Our networks in the UK say the Reapers have arrived in huge numbers"

"I don't like the sound of that. Any more details?"

"No, and that scares the hell outta me."


This conversation happens way BEFORE the Reapers move the citadel, or learn of the Crucible being made. 
Not 100% on this but I'm pretty sure he mentions London several more times. They were setting up SOMETHING in London.

The way I understood it, they started building the beam then and used it to transport people to the Citadel to be processed (or whatever the beam is used for in reality and not in Shepard's dream). No one said that the Citadel must orbit earth to do that.

Yes but logically, the beam could be some kind of mass effect space elevator, which means the Citadel would have to be in geosynchronus orbit over London for it to be effective or at least within range of the island of the United Kingdom.

Hmm, true. Would that mean the Reapers planned all along to move the Citadel there? While Shepard is attacking the Cerberus Base, TIM is going to the Citadel and telling the Reapers. The Citadel is moved to London. Right afterwards, we start the mission on earth. How much time passed between that? Admitted, we don't know anything about the beam, but the fact that it's already there and working when we arrive could mean the Reapers started building it beforehand. Ok, lots of speculation on that one.

[ThisOneIsPunny]

SS2Dante wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Still no literal guys want to explain to me what the importance of London is? Or at least how humanity knew it was important before the Citadel was moved there?

There doesn't seem to be any intrinsic point to it before the Citadel moves there, just happens to be an important place on Earth. I wonder you think about it

http://www.youtube.c...C70xrwE#t=1039s

"It's time we started focussing our efforts"

"Where?"

"London. Something big is happening there. Our networks in the UK say the Reapers have arrived in huge numbers"

"I don't like the sound of that. Any more details?"

"No, and that scares the hell outta me."


This conversation happens way BEFORE the Reapers move the citadel, or learn of the Crucible being made. 
Not 100% on this but I'm pretty sure he mentions London several more times. They were setting up SOMETHING in London.

Something clearly being the Olympics.
Go gold or go home.

[BatmanTurian]

NeoDobby wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

NeoDobby wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Still no literal guys want to explain to me what the importance of London is? Or at least how humanity knew it was important before the Citadel was moved there?

There doesn't seem to be any intrinsic point to it before the Citadel moves there, just happens to be an important place on Earth. I wonder you think about it

http://www.youtube.c...C70xrwE#t=1039s

"It's time we started focussing our efforts"

"Where?"

"London. Something big is happening there. Our networks in the UK say the Reapers have arrived in huge numbers"

"I don't like the sound of that. Any more details?"

"No, and that scares the hell outta me."


This conversation happens way BEFORE the Reapers move the citadel, or learn of the Crucible being made. 
Not 100% on this but I'm pretty sure he mentions London several more times. They were setting up SOMETHING in London.

The way I understood it, they started building the beam then and used it to transport people to the Citadel to be processed (or whatever the beam is used for in reality and not in Shepard's dream). No one said that the Citadel must orbit earth to do that.

Yes but logically, the beam could be some kind of mass effect space elevator, which means the Citadel would have to be in geosynchronus orbit over London for it to be effective or at least within range of the island of the United Kingdom.

Hmm, true. Would that mean the Reapers planned all along to move the Citadel there? While Shepard is attacking the Cerberus Base, TIM is going to the Citadel and telling the Reapers. The Citadel is moved to London. Right afterwards, we start the mission on earth. How much time passed between that? Admitted, we don't know anything about the beam, but the fact that it's already there and working when we arrive could mean the Reapers started building it beforehand. Ok, lots of speculation on that one.

It's hard to tell how much time has passed because FTL is not instantaneous and can take hours-to-days.

[NeoDobby]

BatmanTurian wrote...

NeoDobby wrote...

Hmm, true. Would that mean the Reapers planned all along to move the Citadel there? While Shepard is attacking the Cerberus Base, TIM is going to the Citadel and telling the Reapers. The Citadel is moved to London. Right afterwards, we start the mission on earth. How much time passed between that? Admitted, we don't know anything about the beam, but the fact that it's already there and working when we arrive could mean the Reapers started building it beforehand. Ok, lots of speculation on that one.

It's hard to tell how much time has passed because FTL is not instantaneous and can take hours-to-days.

End of story: We still don't have a frakin' idea why London.

[HellishFiend]

While we're on the subject, if it wasnt for the fact that the Reapers are actually taking losses, the fact that they take the Citadel to Earth would convince me that they have some kind of grand design conspiracy going on. Earth is far, far from the safest possible location they could take the Citadel. Darkspace anyone? What about simply deactivating the mass relays? Unless Bioware is really just having the Reapers "conveniently" make mistakes for the sake of being able to wrap up the story (which is possible, I admit), there is a lot more going on than we are being led to believe.

[Nekroso22]

BatmanTurian wrote...

That is an opinion.

As was my original statement, yet you seemed content to argue it with me all this time.

I never said my opinion was fact.

You're right that you didn't but that's not what I was arguing.

Filtered through logic.

Pass.

These statements are so obvious that I'm not sure why I have to tell it to you.

At no point in this conversation have you ever approached my statements or the statements of others (even those who were just clarifying information) without petty insults and denigrating remarks.

[BatmanTurian]

HellishFiend wrote...

While we're on the subject, if it wasnt for the fact that the Reapers are actually taking losses, the fact that they take the Citadel to Earth would convince me that they have some kind of grand design conspiracy going on. Earth is far, far from the safest possible location they could take the Citadel. Darkspace anyone? What about simply deactivating the mass relays? Unless Bioware is really just having the Reapers "conveniently" make mistakes for the sake of being able to wrap up the story (which is possible, I admit), there is a lot more going on than we are being led to believe.

Presumably, they have brought the Citadel to Earth because they have chosen Humans to be the predominant species they wish to Reaperize and since the Collector base is gone or under Cerberus control and the equipment built to create a Human Reaper was damaged, the Citadel is plan B since it is likely a Reaper factory/nursery.

[Rifneno]

HellishFiend wrote...

While we're on the subject, if it wasnt for the fact that the Reapers are actually taking losses, the fact that they take the Citadel to Earth would convince me that they have some kind of grand design conspiracy going on. Earth is far, far from the safest possible location they could take the Citadel. Darkspace anyone? What about simply deactivating the mass relays? Unless Bioware is really just having the Reapers "conveniently" make mistakes for the sake of being able to wrap up the story (which is possible, I admit), there is a lot more going on than we are being led to believe.

Hide it behind the Omega-4 relay.  "But the Normandy/Cerberus could follow" some would say.  Well not if the Reapers did for the first time in 37,000,000 years what IT professionals tell you to do every month and CHANGE THE GODDAMN PASSWORD.

[BatmanTurian]

Nekroso22 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

That is an opinion.

As was my original statement, yet you seemed content to argue it with me all this time.

I never said my opinion was fact.

You're right that you didn't but that's not what I was arguing.

Filtered through logic.

Pass.

These statements are so obvious that I'm not sure why I have to tell it to you.

At no point in this conversation have you ever approached my statements or the statements of others (even those who were just clarifying information) without petty insults and denigrating remarks.

Because I had been as clear as I can be that it was my opinion that IT had evidence to back it up but that I was open to being wrong because I stated Bioware is the one who chooses what is fact. It annoys me that I have to explain to you this basic difference because it was already inferred. Hence my passive-aggressive tone. If you are not a native-english speaker, then maybe I can understand why you might have problems understanding the nuances of my statements.

[HellishFiend]

BatmanTurian wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

While we're on the subject, if it wasnt for the fact that the Reapers are actually taking losses, the fact that they take the Citadel to Earth would convince me that they have some kind of grand design conspiracy going on. Earth is far, far from the safest possible location they could take the Citadel. Darkspace anyone? What about simply deactivating the mass relays? Unless Bioware is really just having the Reapers "conveniently" make mistakes for the sake of being able to wrap up the story (which is possible, I admit), there is a lot more going on than we are being led to believe.

Presumably, they have brought the Citadel to Earth because they have chosen Humans to be the predominant species they wish to Reaperize and since the Collector base is gone or under Cerberus control and the equipment built to create a Human Reaper was damaged, the Citadel is plan B since it is likely a Reaper factory/nursery.

Well, their primary goal is ostensibly to protect the Citadel from being used alongside the Crucible. Whatever they are doing with the beam is a secondary objective. If it were a primary objective, they would not have waited until being informed about the Crucible to retake it and move it to "protect it".