57139 réponses à ce sujet

[polor89]

Rifneno wrote...

polor89 wrote...

There is no way that harbinger is originates from the protheans just the codex alone invalidates this .You probably take the codex way too realistically the alliance or any other species didnt wrote the codex bioware did

I bet you have an awesome explanation for why the codex says the Protheans built the mass relays.

No.  Whatever you're about to type, NO.  Stop.  Go check your facts before you say it.  Now go back and check them again because you're still wrong.

The mass relays were built by the reapers the codex from ME3 CONFIRMS THAT it says that the mass relays were built by reaper technology is that wrong too because the codex says it?Accept that you are wrong and move on 

[Salient Archer]

TheConstantOne wrote...

My problem with conventional IT's take on the control ending is this: as you said, it IS a possible low EMS choice for those who kept the collector base.  I have a different take on it then you do. What if Shepard figured that whatever evil the illusive man would cause with the tech was better than outright extinction? Fight the Reapers first and then worry about Cerberus!

Ok, sorry for the loooonnngggg delay, but I finally decided to wrap my brain around it. Anyway...

This I can definitely relate to instantly, especially as it is seen as a renegade option in ME2 and as by definition this aspect of Shepard’s mentality is “victory, no matter the cost, no matter the means” so this fits perfectly with what you are saying and hence I whole heartedly agree.

Shepard's resolve to destroy the Reapers was so great that s/he was willing to sacrifice lives to make sure that they could be stopped.  That suggests a *higher* default resolve to me, not lower.  So why make the default choice control=complete indoctrination?

I’d just like to say I don’t totally disagree with you, but am just trying to come up with a counter argument to keep things interesting and productive... anyhow:

It’s interesting to see that what was once considered a renegade action now leads to the “paragon” conclusion to the series. Which I guess is where I’ll start to dissect it a little bit; I guess the first point most raise is that Shepard’s perception of what is right and wrong has now been clouded by the Reaper indoctrination (much like how the Codex points out) and hence why he doesn’t actually see this option for what it really is, but that also raises another issue, which is “why would Shepard actually care if it was blue, red, purple, tangerine or pink with plaid stripes?” the simple answer is: he wouldn’t, the blue paragon and red renegade options are only something us the player are witnesses too, it’s a system for us to judge quickly and easily what those options are. So if we separate the colors out of the equation, we could look at it from the point of view that Shepard had already once sided with the illusive man (an agent of the reapers) and potentially could see the value in the dangled carrot of power that is the “control ending”, not only this but Shepard also showed he was able to help secure one of the most crucial bits of tech in the universe and that he was willing to sacrifice humanities soul to do so, proving that he was malleable and more willing to see things from the enemies perspective, not only making him easier to indoctrinate but that he had enough clout to keep around as an asset due to his outcome focussed attitude. This might also have been the easiest way for the reapers to get Shepard out of the picture and remove him as a liability in their war against organics.

This could be paralleled with the alternative low EMS option of Destroy being the only option, demonstrating Shepard’s desire to overcome the Reapers but never actually having the strength to do so. Either way the Reapers win their psychological battle with Shepard and in both cases plays to Shepard’s weaknesses to take him out of the picture one way or another depending on his moral stance. This could possibly just be demonstrating their desire to take the path of least resistance.

Literalist: The biggest difference the base makes in the game is whether the Reaper Heart or Brain is in the Crucible.  Since those different components lead to different default choices, is it not logical to assume that the Crucible's construction plays a role in the order the choices are presented?

My main counter to this is that the platform that Shepard is standing and hence the platform in which Shepard’s choices are presented are actually on the Citadel side and not the Crucibles and should not be affected by the crucibles construction or materials. Having said that, the StarChild does say he was altered (to what extent we don’t know) but regardless, why do the other choices eventually present themselves anyway, as this is not based on the crucibles construction or materials but rather Shepard’s EMS (Re: Will power) if this is to be the case?

IT alternative: What if the Illusive Man/Anderson scene was really the indoctrination scene?  Once Reaper Bieber's scene comes up, Shepard WILL escape indoctrination.  Perhaps the 3 choices offer 3 different ways out of indoctrination, each having different end consequences: a good/bad flavor for control and destroy and one single variety for synthesis?

First off, Naming StarChild ‘Reaper-Bieber’ is hilarious and just makes me hate that kid so much more. Secondly, I’ll have to spend a bit more time pondering on this thought.

Anyway, I’m sorry for the wall of text but I’m really keen to see what you think about my counters.

Cheers, Archer out.

[Arian Dynas]

Rifneno wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

My theory on reading posts before replying to them: My theory is that no one else does it.

Bah. I've got a headache and went back to edit my thoughtprocess in. It's too early in the morning/late at night for me to think too hard.

Take some asprin.  If you didn't already.  I don't know, I stopped reading after "headache".

Ha ****ing ha.

[Arian Dynas]

Rosewind wrote...

Need a Hug Arian?

From you? Certainly. 

[Rifneno]

polor89 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

polor89 wrote...

There is no way that harbinger is originates from the protheans just the codex alone invalidates this .You probably take the codex way too realistically the alliance or any other species didnt wrote the codex bioware did

I bet you have an awesome explanation for why the codex says the Protheans built the mass relays.

No.  Whatever you're about to type, NO.  Stop.  Go check your facts before you say it.  Now go back and check them again because you're still wrong.

The mass relays were built by the reapers the codex from ME3 CONFIRMS THAT it says that the mass relays were built by reaper technology is that wrong too because the codex says it?Accept that you are wrong and move on 

Have you ever been right about anything, ever?  Would the sun freeze if you said it was hot?

"Mass relays are feats of Prothean engineering advanced far beyond the technology of any living species." - The Mass Relay codex in ME2, well after Shepard knew who really built them.  Yes, the codexes are written from an in-game perspective and not even always Shepard's.

I'm done with you.

[estebanus]

About this Harbinger= prothean reaper thing... I don't think it has much merit.

We all know that making a reaper results in the consumption of an entire species.
Why would the collectors then exist? Wouldn't they have subsequently also been added to the reaper after they built its base? Why would the reapers decide to repurpose them, not harvest them like any other species if Harby really were the prothean reaper?

Modifié par estebanus, 04 mai 2012 - 12:20 .

[estebanus]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

Need a Hug Arian?

From you? Certainly. 

Rosewind is always so friendly!

[Arian Dynas]

estebanus wrote...

About this Harbinger= prothean reaper thing... I don't think it has much merit.

We all know that making a reaper results in the consumption of an entire species.
Why would the collectors then exist? Wouldn't they have subsequently also been added to the reaper after they built its base? Why would the rapers decide to repurpose them, not harvest them like any other species if Harby really were the prothean reaper?

Agreed, and the problem with the codex thing is that they said that because it was a common assumption of the people,  one they maintained in the name of dramatic tension and reveal, but the age of Harbinger isn't paticularly important story wise, and for that matter, the estimation OF his age really only comes FROM the codex, so why would they say something and then invalidate themselves?

[MegumiAzusa]

estebanus wrote...

About this Harbinger= prothean reaper thing... I don't think it has much merit.

We all know that making a reaper results in the consumption of an entire species.
Why would the collectors then exist? Wouldn't they have subsequently also been added to the reaper after they built its base? Why would the rapers decide to repurpose them, not harvest them like any other species if Harby really were the prothean reaper?

Why repurpose ~10k prothean husks if you can just use them?

[Rosewind]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

Need a Hug Arian?

From you? Certainly. 

*Huggle*

[Arian Dynas]

Rosewind wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

Need a Hug Arian?

From you? Certainly. 

*Huggle*

 *HUG!* 

(What? I'm a touchy-feel kind of guy whom wasn't hugged enough as a child, I like hugs.)

[Rosewind]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

Need a Hug Arian?

From you? Certainly. 

*Huggle*

 *HUG!* 

(What? I'm a touchy-feel kind of guy whom wasn't hugged enough as a child, I like hugs.)

Ha ha nothing wrong with hugs.

[estebanus]

Rosewind wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

Need a Hug Arian?

From you? Certainly. 

*Huggle*

 *HUG!* 

(What? I'm a touchy-feel kind of guy whom wasn't hugged enough as a child, I like hugs.)

Ha ha nothing wrong with hugs.

Yup, hugs are always nice!

[Arian Dynas]

Rosewind wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

Need a Hug Arian?

From you? Certainly. 

*Huggle*

 *HUG!* 

(What? I'm a touchy-feel kind of guy whom wasn't hugged enough as a child, I like hugs.)

Ha ha nothing wrong with hugs.

*sigh* Wish I had someone to get them from in the real world, tbh. *hug*

Anyway. Night.

[estebanus]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

estebanus wrote...

About this Harbinger= prothean reaper thing... I don't think it has much merit.

We all know that making a reaper results in the consumption of an entire species.
Why would the collectors then exist? Wouldn't they have subsequently also been added to the reaper after they built its base? Why would the rapers decide to repurpose them, not harvest them like any other species if Harby really were the prothean reaper?

Why repurpose ~10k prothean husks if you can just use them?

exactly.

[Rifneno]

estebanus wrote...

About this Harbinger= prothean reaper thing... I don't think it has much merit.

We all know that making a reaper results in the consumption of an entire species.
Why would the collectors then exist? Wouldn't they have subsequently also been added to the reaper after they built its base? Why would the rapers decide to repurpose them, not harvest them like any other species if Harby really were the prothean reaper?

There was nothing to indicate that the Reapers will use every single individual they can to create a new Reaper. Quite the opposite actually. Humans they had captured and deemed unfit for use they either turned into husks or use as indoctrinated tools. The "unworthy" ones were put in work camps to trick others. Other humans would see these indoctrinated workers and assume that surrender doesn't automatically mean death, and many would then surrender.

It's quite possible the Collectors are remnants of "unworthy" Protheans (like Javik... yes, I hate him). By the time we saw them 50,000 years later, they weren't even Prothean anymore. As Mordin said, "closer to husks than slaves." I vaguely recall mentions of cloning being used to keep their numbers up. I know he said that many of their systems (like digestive) had been completely replaced by tech implants because the constant cloning was pretty much wrecking their DNA.

Arian Dynas wrote...

Agreed, and the problem with the codex thing is that they said that because it was a common assumption of the people, one they maintained in the name of dramatic tension and reveal, but the age of Harbinger isn't paticularly important story wise, and for that matter, the estimation OF his age really only comes FROM the codex, so why would they say something and then invalidate themselves?

Why would they say something and then later invalidate it? I don't know, why did they say everything that literalists use to try to invalidate IT?

[polor89]

Rifneno wrote...

polor89 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

polor89 wrote...

There is no way that harbinger is originates from the protheans just the codex alone invalidates this .You probably take the codex way too realistically the alliance or any other species didnt wrote the codex bioware did

I bet you have an awesome explanation for why the codex says the Protheans built the mass relays.

No.  Whatever you're about to type, NO.  Stop.  Go check your facts before you say it.  Now go back and check them again because you're still wrong.

The mass relays were built by the reapers the codex from ME3 CONFIRMS THAT it says that the mass relays were built by reaper technology is that wrong too because the codex says it?Accept that you are wrong and move on 

Have you ever been right about anything, ever?  Would the sun freeze if you said it was hot?

"Mass relays are feats of Prothean engineering advanced far beyond the technology of any living species." - The Mass Relay codex in ME2, well after Shepard knew who really built them.  Yes, the codexes are written from an in-game perspective and not even always Shepard's.

I'm done with you.

OMG i didnt ask what the codex in ME2 is saying i dont care the ME3 codex is the "updated one" written by bioware and it is very truthfull with the facts about the reapers and you went completely off topic you said harbinger originate from the protheans only you have said that and codex invalidates that as i said again:mellow:
so accept that sometimes you maybe be wrong okay hotshot?

[estebanus]

Rifneno wrote...

estebanus wrote...

About this Harbinger= prothean reaper thing... I don't think it has much merit.

We all know that making a reaper results in the consumption of an entire species.
Why would the collectors then exist? Wouldn't they have subsequently also been added to the reaper after they built its base? Why would the rapers decide to repurpose them, not harvest them like any other species if Harby really were the prothean reaper?

There was nothing to indicate that the Reapers will use every single individual they can to create a new Reaper. Quite the opposite actually. Humans they had captured and deemed unfit for use they either turned into husks or use as indoctrinated tools. The "unworthy" ones were put in work camps to trick others. Other humans would see these indoctrinated workers and assume that surrender doesn't automatically mean death, and many would then surrender.

It's quite possible the Collectors are remnants of "unworthy" Protheans (like Javik... yes, I hate him). By the time we saw them 50,000 years later, they weren't even Prothean anymore. As Mordin said, "closer to husks than slaves." I vaguely recall mentions of cloning being used to keep their numbers up. I know he said that many of their systems (like digestive) had been completely replaced by tech implants because the constant cloning was pretty much wrecking their DNA.

Arian Dynas wrote...

Agreed, and the problem with the codex thing is that they said that because it was a common assumption of the people, one they maintained in the name of dramatic tension and reveal, but the age of Harbinger isn't paticularly important story wise, and for that matter, the estimation OF his age really only comes FROM the codex, so why would they say something and then invalidate themselves?

Why would they say something and then later invalidate it? I don't know, why did they say everything that literalists use to try to invalidate IT?

Thes "unwothy ones" would not be alive today, if you would have listened to Vigil. He say that the reapsrs left behind their indoctrinated servants, but these would eventually die because they wouldn't be able to feed themselves because they were pretty much braindead.

Unworthy ones=left alone to die anyway.

Worthy ones= become a reaper(?)

Also if what you're saying is truly the case, then how come we only have seen prothean husk? Why not Inusannon?

[MadRabbit999]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Bm Fahrtz wrote...

After looking at this cube map, i have concluded that....

I have no clue what it is. Somebody explain.

Edit: After reading through a couple posts. I still dont understand why people think this is a hint of some kind.

Trees can be found in the reflection of the ground in the final room on the Citadel. There is absolutely no reason for them to be there. It's confirmed that those trees would have had to of been intentionally placed there and not just been left behind or recycled, because the trees get more visible if you have the choice of Synthesis available. One would think that a room in space with no visible plantlife, that has the reflections of trees on the ground could not possibly exist. It would be save to assume this area is not real.

That's just a cheap reflection map... you found these all over the ME games... some of my favourite ones were mountains reflections found within confined spaces of the Citadel. It's a pretty generic thing to do in modern games because reflecting the real enviornment is much more expensive in terms of performance.

Which would make sense if it were a cubemap of an environment of that setting, but the trees were intentionally placed in the cubemap as it is depicting the scene you have, just with added trees.

There is also a giant "mirror of death" if you go on the platform completely opposite ot the 3 choices, really HUGE hole, not very subtle at all, proof that this scene has not been tested properly, also it shows the scene was incredibly rushed, and most likely the materials were not worked properly either, it's an easy mistake to make.  (Mirror of death for those who do not know, is when there is lack of 3D geometry in a scene, and the camera directly looks at "empty space", so what happens is that every frame does not refresh correctly where the empty space is, resulting in a weird cloning-mirror effect).

Let's not turn into a rubble of people who shouts "It's a sign!" at every little silly thing please...

Modifié par MadRabbit999, 04 mai 2012 - 12:41 .

[Rifneno]

estebanus wrote...

Thes "unwothy ones" would not be alive today, if you would have listened to Vigil. He say that the reapsrs left behind their indoctrinated servants, but these would eventually die because they wouldn't be able to feed themselves because they were pretty much braindead.

I forgot Vigil was all-knowing. Except the parts he says he doesn't know jack about. Oh, why don't we see Inusannon? How about the twenty thousand species before that? You think Protheans were the first, last, and only species that for completely unknown reasons they couldn't make a Reaper out of? That makes perfect sense. I wonder how the Collectors existed at all since the all-knowing Vigil claims the only thing left were indoctrinated slaves that froze to death.

If I had listened to Vigil... Jesus.

Edit: I'm taking a break from the forum.  Might be back tomorrow, a week, not at all, don't know.  Need to cool off though.  Not that it matters, I doubt anybody read more than three sentences anyway.  I'm pretty much just wasting bandwidth by typing more than 50 letters.

Modifié par Rifneno, 04 mai 2012 - 12:45 .

[Bm Fahrtz]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Bm Fahrtz wrote...

After looking at this cube map, i have concluded that....

I have no clue what it is. Somebody explain.

Edit: After reading through a couple posts. I still dont understand why people think this is a hint of some kind.

Trees can be found in the reflection of the ground in the final room on the Citadel. There is absolutely no reason for them to be there. It's confirmed that those trees would have had to of been intentionally placed there and not just been left behind or recycled, because the trees get more visible if you have the choice of Synthesis available. One would think that a room in space with no visible plantlife, that has the reflections of trees on the ground could not possibly exist. It would be save to assume this area is not real.

That's just a cheap reflection map... you found these all over the ME games... some of my favourite ones were mountains reflections found within confined spaces of the Citadel. It's a pretty generic thing to do in modern games because reflecting the real enviornment is much more expensive in terms of performance.

Which would make sense if it were a cubemap of an environment of that setting, but the trees were intentionally placed in the cubemap as it is depicting the scene you have, just with added trees.

There is also a giant "mirror of death" if you go on the platform completely opposite ot the 3 choices, really HUGE hole, not very subtle at all, proof that this scene has not been tested properly, also it shows the scene was incredibly rushed, and most likely the materials were not worked properly either, it's an easy mistake to make.  (Mirror of death for those who do not know, is when there is lack of 3D geometry in a scene, and the camera directly looks at "empty space", so what happens is that every frame does not refresh correctly where the empty space is, resulting in a weird cloning-mirror effect).

Let's not turn into a rubble of people who shouts "It's a sign!" at every little silly thing please...

Whoa, look at the guy all the way to the right. He seems to be looking at something diffrent than the rest of the group. There is only 1 explaination for this

He's indoctrinated.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Bm Fahrtz wrote...

After looking at this cube map, i have concluded that....

I have no clue what it is. Somebody explain.

Edit: After reading through a couple posts. I still dont understand why people think this is a hint of some kind.

Trees can be found in the reflection of the ground in the final room on the Citadel. There is absolutely no reason for them to be there. It's confirmed that those trees would have had to of been intentionally placed there and not just been left behind or recycled, because the trees get more visible if you have the choice of Synthesis available. One would think that a room in space with no visible plantlife, that has the reflections of trees on the ground could not possibly exist. It would be save to assume this area is not real.

That's just a cheap reflection map... you found these all over the ME games... some of my favourite ones were mountains reflections found within confined spaces of the Citadel. It's a pretty generic thing to do in modern games because reflecting the real enviornment is much more expensive in terms of performance.

Which would make sense if it were a cubemap of an environment of that setting, but the trees were intentionally placed in the cubemap as it is depicting the scene you have, just with added trees.

There is also a giant "mirror of death" if you go on the platform completely opposite ot the 3 choices, really HUGE hole, not very subtle at all, proof that this scene has not been tested properly, also it shows the scene was incredibly rushed, and most likely the materials were not worked properly either, it's an easy mistake to make.  (Mirror of death for those who do not know, is when there is lack of 3D geometry in a scene, and the camera directly looks at "empty space", so what happens is that every frame does not refresh correctly where the empty space is, resulting in a weird cloning-mirror effect).

Let's not turn into a rubble of people who shouts "It's a sign!" at every little silly thing please...

Could you give a video or screenshot of that please?

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 04 mai 2012 - 12:47 .

[MegumiAzusa]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Bm Fahrtz wrote...

After looking at this cube map, i have concluded that....

I have no clue what it is. Somebody explain.

Edit: After reading through a couple posts. I still dont understand why people think this is a hint of some kind.

Trees can be found in the reflection of the ground in the final room on the Citadel. There is absolutely no reason for them to be there. It's confirmed that those trees would have had to of been intentionally placed there and not just been left behind or recycled, because the trees get more visible if you have the choice of Synthesis available. One would think that a room in space with no visible plantlife, that has the reflections of trees on the ground could not possibly exist. It would be save to assume this area is not real.

That's just a cheap reflection map... you found these all over the ME games... some of my favourite ones were mountains reflections found within confined spaces of the Citadel. It's a pretty generic thing to do in modern games because reflecting the real enviornment is much more expensive in terms of performance.

Which would make sense if it were a cubemap of an environment of that setting, but the trees were intentionally placed in the cubemap as it is depicting the scene you have, just with added trees.

There is also a giant "mirror of death" if you go on the platform completely opposite ot the 3 choices, really HUGE hole, not very subtle at all, proof that this scene has not been tested properly, also it shows the scene was incredibly rushed, and most likely the materials were not worked properly either, it's an easy mistake to make.  (Mirror of death for those who do not know, is when there is lack of 3D geometry in a scene, and the camera directly looks at "empty space", so what happens is that every frame does not refresh correctly where the empty space is, resulting in a weird cloning-mirror effect).

Let's not turn into a rubble of people who shouts "It's a sign!" at every little silly thing please...

Look at my other post: if that scene were that rushed, why are there 3 different versions of the same cubemap? Again: if the map would show only a green setting like the one on the Citadel I would acknowledge that, but the cubemap here shows the trees were in the scene on purpose and changed 2 times. From your posts you seem to ignore these facts.

[SS2Dante]

balance5050 wrote...

blooregard wrote...

Idk why they wanted the tree their in the first place but if this is a clue then what is it a clue of?

ALSO I remember a thread here a month ago or something where somebody went diving into the game files and found that the foilage on Gilligan's Planet was marked in the files as Dream_something_something.something. if anyone can confirm that and/or find that thread again they'll receave brownier points.

Dead trees in dreams where you're feeling guilt, living tree's during the end when the kid wants you to choose synthesis.

Foliage game files:

http://i.imgur.com/1PpZ2.png 

Well heeeeelllooooo. Has this actually been confirmed? Because, ah...pretty strong evidence right there. Unless you have another dream at some point in the series involving this foliage?

[MegumiAzusa]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Could you give a video or screenshot of that please?

He is talking about that:

you can even fall through at some point.