57139 réponses à ce sujet

[balance5050]

SS2Dante wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

The asterix's are small circles with numbers in them, which I put in. Next to finale, brave new world, and symbolz right?

Yup, think so. Are they clarified on the page? (can't see it once quoted, mind editing the original to include the link as well?)

Edited the original but here it is again:
http://i.imgur.com/oY36A.jpg 

[fade2black.1337]

MintyCool wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

*Watches MintyCool try to troll by changing the issue into a religious debate. Hopes no-one is silly enough to take the bait*

No, no, evidence against the indoctrination theory.  Not of religion -- man, no, please.  We're discussing a piece of science-fiction here.

Both are not science fiction? How...

Cute.

Actually, even assuming religions to be fiction, very few of them can be called science fiction.

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

I have mentioned to a few other people but:

The logic is simple.
1) Patrick Weekes has stated that you should assume all plot-important people survive on the Citadel.
2) Shepard is plot-important.
3) Therefore Shepard is on the Citadel

Also a comment from Jessica Merizan, states explicity that "Shep was on the Citadel"

So how long are you going to use paraphrases and PR quotes as your "evidence"?

[MakeMineMako]

MintyCool wrote...

byne wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

*Watches MintyCool try to troll by changing the issue into a religious debate. Hopes no-one is silly enough to take the bait*

Just report his posts.

When someones beliefs are challenged with fact and logic the first thing they do...

dig deeper.


Glad to see open discussion is welcome on this board....


Also byne take a lane.

I know I'm superior to you in every possible facet that you can come up with; but if you say you're going to ignore me just because you can't debate facts, then ignore me.

Have some pride and self respect...

No, you were gloating. And to show off your latest troll trophy, you posted a picture of your trolling on Facebook.

And have enough pride and self-respect not to attack people's religious beliefs. If you are such a rationalist, you will know I'm right.

[byne]

MintyCool wrote...

Glad to see open discussion is welcome on this board....

Ok I realized I said I wouldnt reply to Minty anymore, but this right here takes the damned cake.

>Mocks us for having an open discussion about IT
>Trolls with irrelevant religious crap
>Whines that there isnt an open discussion when told he has been reported for trying to shut down said discussion

I'm going to take a page right out of your book, Minty:

You have a persecution complex.... sounds almost Christian....

[Unschuld]

SubAstris wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

SubAstris wrote...
8) I am using what two sources affliated to BW have said, that Shepard survives on the Citadel

they never actually said that. they just said the citadel was not completly destroid, didnt mention if shepard was on it or not.

I have mentioned to a few other people but:

The logic is simple.
1) Patrick Weekes has stated that you should assume all plot-important people survive on the Citadel.
2) Shepard is plot-important.
3) Therefore Shepard is on the Citadel

Also a comment from Jessica Merizan, states explicity that "Shep was on the Citadel"

1. Could also mean Bailey, The Council, Aethyta (sp?), TIM (if encounter was a hallucination), Aria (don't know if she went anywhere yet), etc. Very open ended statement.
2. Yup.
3.That doesn't state specifically that he's on the citadel.
4*. Jessica Merizan is both proven as stating truth or falsehood when it's convenient for the argument.

Modifié par Unschuld, 04 mai 2012 - 06:13 .

[balance5050]

fade2black.1337 wrote...

MintyCool wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

*Watches MintyCool try to troll by changing the issue into a religious debate. Hopes no-one is silly enough to take the bait*

No, no, evidence against the indoctrination theory.  Not of religion -- man, no, please.  We're discussing a piece of science-fiction here.

Both are not science fiction? How...

Cute.

Actually, even assuming religions to be fiction, very few of them can be called science fiction.

Scientology? Actually started by a sci fi author.

[MintyCool]

byne wrote...

MintyCool wrote...

Glad to see open discussion is welcome on this board....

Nice image...



You single?

<3

Modifié par MintyCool, 04 mai 2012 - 06:14 .

[SS2Dante]

*Sigh* And somehow everyone STILL managed to feed the troll. Come on people

On the subject of the released design doc, that's the sort of thing I'd love to see more in games or special editions. Just really interesting seeing the process.

Anyone else got a clue what the drawing is on the paper? Like, maaaybe it's a super crappy drawing of the end room...ish...meh.

[llbountyhunter]

I wonder If IT opponents realized they're helping it in a round about way.

[polor89]

Are we really comparing RELIGION with the indoctrination theory??

[balance5050]

SS2Dante wrote...

*Sigh* And somehow everyone STILL managed to feed the troll. Come on people

On the subject of the released design doc, that's the sort of thing I'd love to see more in games or special editions. Just really interesting seeing the process.

Anyone else got a clue what the drawing is on the paper? Like, maaaybe it's a super crappy drawing of the end room...ish...meh.

That's my best guess but it's so rudimentary that it's hard to tell.

[byne]

polor89 wrote...

Are we really comparing RELIGION with the indoctrination theory??

It happens every hundred pages or so

[blooregard]

SubAstris wrote...

blooregard wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

blooregard wrote...


Current (best) pieces of evidence supporting the IT:
1) The kid on Earth (may have been real before but is seen running into a house before it gets blown up and is perfectly fine in the ventilation)
2) Nobody notices the child in any instance except Shepard (nobody helps him onto the shuttle and Anderson doesn't say anything about who Shepard is talking too
3) Reaper growl heard when Anderson gets shep's attention away from the kid
4) Increasingly weird dreams where you see the "oily shadows" and hear whispers from the nearly incomprehensible murmurs to the squad mates
5) TIM's post Thessia change of heart ("I'm not looking for your approval" to "I need you to believe"
6) The weird growls when you and Anderson confront TIM
7) The oily black borders in that same scene
8) Waking up after the destroy ending in what appears to be human rubble

1) The reasoning behind BW putting in the kid is odd. He is shown at the beginning of the game in the flesh (he is real) at this point, then despite not seeing him actually die, he is then fake for the rest of the mission? It would be an odd way to show indoctrination. But anyway, we don't know where he went in that time after he has entered the building, it is far from certain whether he would be killed. It was a big explosion, but it can't be known for certain that is for sure. There is a possibility he managed to hide himself, in the vent even.
2) Nobody seems to realise the kid, however that doesn't mean he is not real. I believe there are good reasons why BW didn't have an interaction between the kid and other characters. The kid we can all agree, IT or not, is meant to generate a degree of pathos, it is a personal relationship and thus is symbolic of Shepard's own guilt that he cannot save anything on Earth (the comment he says after the vent scene shows this, "it is hard knowing that even if you try your best, you can't save them all"). To have Anderson in such a scene would be completely unnecessary. Furthermore, Anderson at this moment is looking for a way out, hence why he says "Shepard, over here!". He is in the other room and not concentrating on Shep at this moment. As for the shuttle scene, there are reasons on a practical and stylistic level about why there would be no interaction. On a practical one, the soldiers cannot possibly do anything to help the kid anyway since there are a load of Reaper troops about to overwhelm them; even to avert their gaze could dramatically change the situation on the battlefield, and it is therefore too dangerous. Furthermore by having no one help the child, it increases Shepard's empathy for said child, which is what the child is all about.
3) There are Reapers outside the building, make a lot of noise. I see it as an audible cue, marking the transistion from the tender child scene to one focusing on the harsh realities of the war and the matter at hand.
4) The dreams themselves aren't particularly weird if they are meant to symbolises Shep's guilt and the stress of the situation. The fact that it is squadmates makes it very clear that Shep is guilty about all the people he has lost who have been close to him, while the countless murmurs" represent countless people who have died.
5) In the start of the game, TIM is supremely confident because he has a massive army, a brilliant assasin and the work on indoctrination at Sanctuary is doing well. However by the end of the game he is in a desparate situation, he is falling to pieces; like all megalomaniacs TIM wants Shep to believe so that he can be secure in his own beliefs.
6) Linked to the Reaper implants TIM has been given at Cerberus Base and the power he has over Shep and Anderson
7) Ditto
8) Very controversial. The rubble in my opinion could be either Citadel or Earth, it is very debatable. What swings it in my favour is the appearance of the cables like the ones seen on the Citadel but which are nowhere to be present around the beam on Earth

1) You're saying a laser that cuts through dreadnoughts like a cuttng torch through butter doesn't kill a kid hiding in a civilian building's ventilation shaft? seems too far out their IMO
2) Even if the soldiers didn't notice/couldn't help the kid there were plenty of civilians on the shuttles and trying to the shuttle and not a single one of them could help him?
3) Fair enough but its there since it supports stuff found in the books (from what I've heard)
4) The dreams that show the strange "oily black shadows" and show you and the kid bursting into flames aren't strange?
5) TIM sided with the Reapers told them about the crucible and got the citadel moved to Earth both him and the Reapers plan on sabotaging the crucible in some way or another to an indoctrinated slave I don't think TIM could be any happier. Besides if he could control Shepard into shooting Anderson why not control shepard into shooting Anderson and himself. No TIM is indoctrinated and feels everything that has happened thus far is a meaningful sacrafice I don't think he came all that way just to need shep to chant "I think you can I think you can I think you can"6)  The growls that cause Shepard to hold his head in pain? TIM may be controlling shep but he sure seems to be able to hold his head in pain 
7) I knew there was something unexplainable in that list8) insisting its the citadel implies that Shepard survived an explosion that engulfed the entire presidium and exposure to vaccum (possible). Insisting its Earth but not IT insists Shepard survived everything that killed him in the second game but with 90% less protection.

1) We don't know where the kid was and therefore cannot accurately determine the amount of damage sustained. That is why I am reluctant to say he is not real.
2) And read again what I said about it from a literary point of view
3) I haven't actually read the line where this is explained, although I've heard it talked about a lot. Has anyone got it?
4) The oily shadows, representations of people you have lost through your journey. Kid bursting into flames again shows Sheps deepest fears (as far as dreams go it is not that weird)
5) And yet he knows that he cannot control the Reapers. He knows that Shep, the man most likely to foil his plans, is still out there and in fact right in front of him. Remember, he doesn't initially just say, "I need you to believe", it is only when the situation becomes so very desperate. The line fits with TIM's character and mental state at this point.
6) TIM has partial control over Shep and Anderson.
7) ??? But I did explain
8) I am using what two sources affliated to BW have said, that Shepard survives on the Citadel

1) The kid didn't suffer a single scratch from getting lasered? even if he did survive do you really think he would have been injured in the slightest and whats with the kid turning down being saved I don't think any kid in that position would say "you can't save me" to a soldier who's trying to get off world.
2) Literary PoV is just "artistic integrity" spelled differently and if they did make the kid have to fend for himself the entire time just for the added "shock value" then its a stupid reason and could have probably been more emotional if he found his mom by the shuttles and they got lasered the fact that nobody helps him is either a stupid decision on the writer's part or the kid died in that apartment.
3) I haven't read it either but Cerberus was expirementing with indoctrination and from the indoctrinatee's point of view every time he resisted the indoctrination some kind of animalistic reaper growl could be heard apparently. It can be explained by ambient noise in the back ground but we haven't heard a reaper noise like that they're always that deep BWWAAAAAAAAAAA even the sound during the TIM conversation is closer to the deeper BWWAAAAAAAA that Reapers make
4) Going off what the Rachni queen says about the first Rachni War (assuming the Rachni were indoctrinated) she mentions seeing/hearing oily black shadows and what not which go with the dreams
5) He doesn't show that kind of mental state on Chronos Station  (to the best of my knowledge) so its still a dramatic shift from "I'm not looking for your approval" to "I need you to believe" and "I wish you could see it...its so...perfect"
6) If the Reapers could implant TIM like that or such things could be salvaged from Reaper tech why didn't Saren or Kai Leng have something similar? Along with the Reaper Growl when TIM I belive there are soft whisper like sounds in that scene somewhere
7) Then I misread your explaination
8)I believe Jessica Merizan herself said that her tweets are her opinion and viewpoint as a fan and nothing more and who else from BW said that shep woke up on the citadel?

[MakeMineMako]

Tirian Thorn wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

And what's wrong about Canadians?

Duh. Canadians are the wildlings of this universe. 

But seriously, I live in Buffalo. I see and talk to Canadians all the time. 99% of them are more polite than most Americans. Sure they say “eh” a lot and French Canadians ****** me off when they come to hockey games and I can’t tell if they’re insulting me or ordering a beer. But that’s ok. 

Most Canadians that I have known didn't think too much of Americans, and took every opportunity to take verbal swipes at us. On everything from the Avro Arrow to not having a socialized healthcare system. 

But a few were cool. Especially the traveling nurses that worked at our local hospital. Nice ladies, they were.

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

I have mentioned to a few other people but:

The logic is simple.
1) Patrick Weekes has stated that you should assume all plot-important people survive on the Citadel.
2) Shepard is plot-important.
3) Therefore Shepard is on the Citadel

Also a comment from Jessica Merizan, states explicity that "Shep was on the Citadel"

So how long are you going to use paraphrases and PR quotes as your "evidence"?

As long as you do the same, which shall be forever

[Unschuld]

polor89 wrote...

Are we really comparing RELIGION with the indoctrination theory??

It's hard to ignore the person with a massively gargantuan head bumbling about the room, but do your best and it will deflate and show its way to the door.

[Rosewind]

Unschuld wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

SubAstris wrote...
8) I am using what two sources affliated to BW have said, that Shepard survives on the Citadel

they never actually said that. they just said the citadel was not completly destroid, didnt mention if shepard was on it or not.

I have mentioned to a few other people but:

The logic is simple.
1) Patrick Weekes has stated that you should assume all plot-important people survive on the Citadel.
2) Shepard is plot-important.
3) Therefore Shepard is on the Citadel

Also a comment from Jessica Merizan, states explicity that "Shep was on the Citadel"

1. Could also mean Bailey, The Council, Aethyta (sp?), TIM (if encounter was a hallucination), Aria (don't know if she went anywhere yet), etc. Very open ended statement.
2. Yup.
3.That doesn't state specifically that he's on the citadel.
4*. Jessica Merizan is both proven as stating truth or falsehood when it's convenient for the argument.

I don't think Aethyta is on the citadel any more by that time.

[balance5050]

polor89 wrote...

Are we really comparing RELIGION with the indoctrination theory??

It's the latest troll tactic, even though I.T. is backed up with evidence, much like evolution and the fossil record.

Modifié par balance5050, 04 mai 2012 - 06:18 .

[Unschuld]

Rosewind wrote...
I don't think Aethyta is on the citadel any more by that time.

Technically all or none are there. I don't remember it being explicitly stated in the game otherwise. I was just making a point since the argument was weak.

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

I have mentioned to a few other people but:

The logic is simple.
1) Patrick Weekes has stated that you should assume all plot-important people survive on the Citadel.
2) Shepard is plot-important.
3) Therefore Shepard is on the Citadel

Also a comment from Jessica Merizan, states explicity that "Shep was on the Citadel"

So how long are you going to use paraphrases and PR quotes as your "evidence"?

As long as you do the same, which shall be forever

You are the only one that's been doing it. None of us have done that in weeks.

[MintyCool]

polor89 wrote...

Are we really comparing RELIGION with the indoctrination theory??

Why is this so unreasonable to you?



Instead of living in a hole all your life, try to live by these simple rules. Your life will become much richer...


1. Do not feel absolutely certain of anything.

2. Do not think it worth while to proceed by concealing evidence, for the evidence is sure to come to light.

3. Never try to discourage thinking for you are sure to succeed.

4. When you meet with opposition, even if it should be from your husband or your children, endeavor to overcome it by argument and not by authority, for a victory dependent upon authority is unreal and illusory.

5. Have no respect for the authority of others, for there are always contrary authorities to be found.

6. Do not use power to suppress opinions you think pernicious, for if you do the opinions will suppress you.

7. Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

8. Find more pleasure in intelligent dissent than in passive agreement, for, if you value intelligence as you should, the former implies a deeper agreement than the latter.

9. Be scrupulously truthful, even if the truth is inconvenient, for it is more inconvenient when you try to conceal it.

10. Do not feel envious of the happiness of those who live in a fool’s paradise, for only a fool will think that it is happiness.


I know,

I'm quite the impressive Mint.

Modifié par MintyCool, 04 mai 2012 - 06:20 .

[byne]

Rosewind wrote...


I don't think Aethyta is on the citadel any more by that time.

We should be able to bring Aethyta onboard as our bartender.

She could be play the wise old bartender role and console Tali after Horizon, and she'd make sure Ash doesnt get completely hammered ever again.

Plus she would be able to keep an eye on Liara, which is her job, after all.

[Unschuld]

byne wrote...

polor89 wrote...

Are we really comparing RELIGION with the indoctrination theory??

It happens every hundred pages or so

"The cycle... MUST continue."

[Tirian Thorn]

MintyCool wrote...

byne wrote...

MintyCool wrote...

Glad to see open discussion is welcome on this board....

*snip

Nice image...



You single?

<3

Still waiting on the evidence that IDT was proven false.... 

Modifié par Tirian Thorn, 04 mai 2012 - 06:19 .