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[Boradam]

blooregard wrote...

Boradam wrote...

blooregard wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

Boradam wrote...

I was thinking about Cerberus and the fact that TIM said that "Cerberus is not an organization, it is an idea," and how Vendetta stated things repeated themselves throughout each cycle, I don't know what I'm going on about but could it be that TIM's contact with the Reaper device way back when put the 'idea' of Cerberus into his mind to help serve the Reapers -- albiet unknowingly?

That's... a good theory actually. The reapers plant the seed for a clandestine organization to grow within their target's ranks, amassing wealth and power, so that when they're needed they can stab civilization in the back. Repeatedly.

Reapers you magnficient bastards!

Vendetta also sas that those who advocated control of the Reapers turned out to be indoctrinated...Cerberus is advocating control of the Reapers

The result being even from the earliest of his exposure to Reaper tech much of what he's done has also been helping prepare for the Reaper's arrival before he even knew they existed, it's pretty sad to think about now.

So wait when does TIM get indoctrinated? I also think I read something talking about him researching the Reapers only after the events of ME1 but in ME3 he goes on to talk about how he dedicated his entire life to the Reapers.

If I recall events right he was in the First Contact War and was exposed to a Reaper Indoctrination device which caused his eyes to go turn husk-like, over time the indoctrination would have been able to take fruition and the Reaper's could then bend him to their will.

So technically he wouldn't have known what the Reaper's were at the time, but he was researching technology that came from them and things involving them. Shepard put the name to his mind, however.

[byne]

HellishFiend wrote...

byne wrote...

Remember that convo with Liara in ME1 about Saren?

Liara: I actually feel somewhat sorry for him.
Shepard: He's become a slave to the Reapers and he doesnt even realize it.

I actually got the distinct impression during TIM's ME3 convos that the paragon reputation dialog options were actually getting through to him. He would pause before his answers and wouldnt display the same TIM level of confidence when defending his position (Martin Sheen, you're the man). That further makes me believe that TIM has been indoctrinated for quite some time and subtly furthering the Reaper's goals. Now that his actions are more directly aiding the reapers, his confidence in those actions wavers slightly under Shepard's verbal paragon assaults. 

I dont know if he does it in renegade dialogue options, but in Paragon he even does that wringing his hands animation thing characters only do when they're nervous or troubled.

[Simon_Says]

Boradam wrote...

The result being even from the earliest of his exposure to Reaper tech much of what he's done has also been helping prepare for the Reaper's arrival before he even knew they existed, it's pretty sad to think about now.

Especially when you consider that for the longest time, Cerberus could have been humanity's greatest asset against the reapers themselves. The greatest minds working for the good of the species without beureaucratic BS getting in the way.

And during ME2 Cerberus was just that.

But the reapers counted on TIM's hubris. If not for that...

Modifié par Simon_Says, 05 mai 2012 - 05:01 .

[HellishFiend]

Boradam wrote...

blooregard wrote...

So wait when does TIM get indoctrinated? I also think I read something talking about him researching the Reapers only after the events of ME1 but in ME3 he goes on to talk about how he dedicated his entire life to the Reapers.

If I recall events right he was in the First Contact War and was exposed to a Reaper Indoctrination device which caused his eyes to go turn husk-like, over time the indoctrination would have been able to take fruition and the Reaper's could then bend him to their will.

So technically he wouldn't have known what the Reaper's were at the time, but he was researching technology that came from them and things involving them. Shepard put the name to his mind, however.

The Reaper Indoctrination Device from the first comics was one of, if not the most, hardcore Indoc devices in the entire ME storyline. Anyone directly touching it would turn into a semi-mindless husk-like creature with a single minded purpose of protecting the device itself and facilitating the creation of more mindless husk-like creatures. 

Both Saren and Jack Harper (later TIM), came into indirect contact with it (touching someone that was touching it). Both soon developed deep obsessions regarding the Reapers. Saren's obsession manifested itself in the search for Sovereign (who he finds in the first novel), and TIM's obsession manifested itself in the creation of Cerberus to ambitiously secure human dominance and go out in search of the Reaper threat. 

[marcelo_sdk]

2AM here, I'm going to bed. Good evening/morning/afternoon to all of you.

[HellishFiend]

byne wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

byne wrote...

Remember that convo with Liara in ME1 about Saren?

Liara: I actually feel somewhat sorry for him.
Shepard: He's become a slave to the Reapers and he doesnt even realize it.

I actually got the distinct impression during TIM's ME3 convos that the paragon reputation dialog options were actually getting through to him. He would pause before his answers and wouldnt display the same TIM level of confidence when defending his position (Martin Sheen, you're the man). That further makes me believe that TIM has been indoctrinated for quite some time and subtly furthering the Reaper's goals. Now that his actions are more directly aiding the reapers, his confidence in those actions wavers slightly under Shepard's verbal paragon assaults. 

I dont know if he does it in renegade dialogue options, but in Paragon he even does that wringing his hands animation thing characters only do when they're nervous or troubled.

Yep, and that combined with his tone and inflection really lead me to believe that Bioware wanted us to see that TIM was starting to crack a tiny bit. Martin Sheen is an incredible actor, and I know he wouldnt have made his voice sound like that unless he was being told to do so. 

[byne]

Simon_Says wrote...

Boradam wrote...

The result being even from the earliest of his exposure to Reaper tech much of what he's done has also been helping prepare for the Reaper's arrival before he even knew they existed, it's pretty sad to think about now.

Especially when you consider that for the longest time, Cerberus could have been humanity's greatest asset against the reapers themselves. The greatest minds working for the good of the species without beureaucratic BS getting in the way.

And during ME2 Cerberus was just that.

But the reapers counted on TIM's hubris. If not for that...

Shepard: Cerberus was supposed to be humanity's sword, not a dagger in our back!
TIM: Very poetic, Commander.

[Simon_Says]

HellishFiend wrote...

Yep, and that combined with his tone and inflection really lead me to believe that Bioware wanted us to see that TIM was starting to crack a tiny bit. Martin Sheen is an incredible actor, and I know he wouldnt have made his voice sound like that unless he was being told to do so.

Or he knew his character well enough to introduce it on his own. Cause seriously, wow. Martin Sheen is TIM.

"But he couldn't?" you might say. BUT HE CAN!

[Boradam]

HellishFiend wrote...

The Reaper Indoctrination Device from the first comics was one of, if not the most, hardcore Indoc devices in the entire ME storyline. Anyone directly touching it would turn into a semi-mindless husk-like creature with a single minded purpose of protecting the device itself and facilitating the creation of more mindless husk-like creatures. 

Both Saren and Jack Harper (later TIM), came into indirect contact with it (touching someone that was touching it). Both soon developed deep obsessions regarding the Reapers. Saren's obsession manifested itself in the search for Sovereign (who he finds in the first novel), and TIM's obsession manifested itself in the creation of Cerberus to ambitiously secure human dominance and go out in search of the Reaper threat. 

I never read the comics unfortunately but heard the overall sypnosis from those who had, that sounds pretty damn intense. Did Saren happen to get machine eyes at the same time as TIM or was it later over time in ME1? If so, then both the major antagonists fell from the same tree -- each getting different aspects and goals from the same Reaper device: Synthesis, then Cerberus and Control respectively.

Modifié par Boradam, 05 mai 2012 - 05:11 .

[HellishFiend]

Simon_Says wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Yep, and that combined with his tone and inflection really lead me to believe that Bioware wanted us to see that TIM was starting to crack a tiny bit. Martin Sheen is an incredible actor, and I know he wouldnt have made his voice sound like that unless he was being told to do so.

Or he knew his character well enough to introduce it on his own. Cause seriously, wow. Martin Sheen is TIM.

"But he couldn't?" you might say. BUT HE CAN!

NO! I'M IN CONTROL! NO ONE'S TELLING ME WHAT TO DO

[byne]

HellishFiend wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Yep, and that combined with his tone and inflection really lead me to believe that Bioware wanted us to see that TIM was starting to crack a tiny bit. Martin Sheen is an incredible actor, and I know he wouldnt have made his voice sound like that unless he was being told to do so.

Or he knew his character well enough to introduce it on his own. Cause seriously, wow. Martin Sheen is TIM.

"But he couldn't?" you might say. BUT HE CAN!

NO! I'M IN CONTROL! NO ONE'S TELLING ME WHAT TO DO

I'll just leave this here.

[HellishFiend]

Boradam wrote...

I never read the comics unfortunately but heard the overall sypnosis from those who had, that sounds pretty damn intense. Did Saren happen to get machine eyes at the same time as TIM or was it later over time in ME1? If so, then both the major antagonists fell from the same tree -- each getting different aspects and goals from the Reaper's: Synthesis, then Cerberus and Control respectively.

I dont recall if Saren gets his blue eyes immediately after his indirect contact with the object, but I dont think so. I'll check in a bit, though. 

[Boradam]

Simon_Says wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Yep, and that combined with his tone and inflection really lead me to believe that Bioware wanted us to see that TIM was starting to crack a tiny bit. Martin Sheen is an incredible actor, and I know he wouldnt have made his voice sound like that unless he was being told to do so.

Or he knew his character well enough to introduce it on his own. Cause seriously, wow. Martin Sheen is TIM.

"But he couldn't?" you might say. BUT HE CAN!

"What if you can't control the Reaper's, would you risk every life on it?"

"But I can!"

That was by far one of the most dramatic moments for me in the game because it not only let me see the effects that Reaper indoctrination can have (then again we saw it in Saren, and numerous others) and how it can completely twist and change people from their actual ideals.

I felt sad for the Illusive Man, not being able to see the truth at first but slowly coming to realize that he is going against everything he had once stood for in the past. Clever writing, there, despite the possibility of him being a hallucination or dream.

EDIT: Martin Sheen as an excellent actor doesn't begin to cut it for me.

Modifié par Boradam, 05 mai 2012 - 05:12 .

[Simon_Says]

Well, it's late here. An' I gotta get up early tommorow. I'm out for now.

Hold the line.

[Boradam]

Simon_Says wrote...

Well, it's late here. An' I gotta get up early tommorow. I'm out for now.

Hold the line.

"Hammer squads awaiting deployment."

[HellishFiend]

Boradam wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Yep, and that combined with his tone and inflection really lead me to believe that Bioware wanted us to see that TIM was starting to crack a tiny bit. Martin Sheen is an incredible actor, and I know he wouldnt have made his voice sound like that unless he was being told to do so.

Or he knew his character well enough to introduce it on his own. Cause seriously, wow. Martin Sheen is TIM.

"But he couldn't?" you might say. BUT HE CAN!

"What if you can't control the Reaper's, would you risk every life on it?"

"But I can!"

That was by far one of the most dramatic moments for me in the game because it not only let me see the effects that Reaper indoctrination can have (then again we saw it in Saren, and numerous others) and how it can completely twist and change people from their actual ideals.

I felt sad for the Illusive Man, not being able to see the truth at first but slowly coming to realize that he is going against everything he had once stood for in the past. Clever writing, there, despite the possibility of him being a hallucination or dream.

I can honestly say that the implication of TIM's speech/dialog/suicide not being real is my one regret about believing IT. It's one of the most powerful dialogs in the trilogy, IMO. I guess we can still consider it "real" in the fact that it happened in Shepard's head, but I thought it was a great way to wrap up TIM's character. Who knows though, maybe the EC would bring about an even better end for TIM. 

[lex0r11]

Whaaaaat, another Hurricane upgrade in the pack? I went through gold for this?

Sorry you guys.

[HellishFiend]

lex0r11 wrote...

Whaaaaat, another Hurricane upgrade in the pack? I went through gold for this?

Sorry you guys.

The Hurricane is great on a Turian soldier/sentinel or Geth Engineer. Incase you didnt know, it was buffed a couple or three weeks back. More damage and less recoil! 

[Boradam]

HellishFiend wrote...

Boradam wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Yep, and that combined with his tone and inflection really lead me to believe that Bioware wanted us to see that TIM was starting to crack a tiny bit. Martin Sheen is an incredible actor, and I know he wouldnt have made his voice sound like that unless he was being told to do so.

Or he knew his character well enough to introduce it on his own. Cause seriously, wow. Martin Sheen is TIM.

"But he couldn't?" you might say. BUT HE CAN!

"What if you can't control the Reaper's, would you risk every life on it?"

"But I can!"

That was by far one of the most dramatic moments for me in the game because it not only let me see the effects that Reaper indoctrination can have (then again we saw it in Saren, and numerous others) and how it can completely twist and change people from their actual ideals.

I felt sad for the Illusive Man, not being able to see the truth at first but slowly coming to realize that he is going against everything he had once stood for in the past. Clever writing, there, despite the possibility of him being a hallucination or dream.

I can honestly say that the implication of TIM's speech/dialog/suicide not being real is my one regret about believing IT. It's one of the most powerful dialogs in the trilogy, IMO. I guess we can still consider it "real" in the fact that it happened in Shepard's head, but I thought it was a great way to wrap up TIM's character. Who knows though, maybe the EC would bring about an even better end for TIM. 

Yeah, it took me a while to come to terms with the IT theory that everything about the Citadel never happened but I eventually accepted it as possibly being a dream. In case that IT is not accurate, at least I can be somewhat comforted for the good end for TIM; writing wise, anyhow.

[byne]

HellishFiend wrote...

I can honestly say that the implication of TIM's speech/dialog/suicide not being real is my one regret about believing IT. It's one of the most powerful dialogs in the trilogy, IMO. I guess we can still consider it "real" in the fact that it happened in Shepard's head, but I thought it was a great way to wrap up TIM's character. Who knows though, maybe the EC would bring about an even better end for TIM. 

I think keeping TIM alive and trying him for war crimes after the war is over would be better.

To quote Tali: He be a traitor to our people, held up for children as a monster in a cautionary tale.

[HellishFiend]

HellishFiend wrote...

Boradam wrote...

I never read the comics unfortunately but heard the overall sypnosis from those who had, that sounds pretty damn intense. Did Saren happen to get machine eyes at the same time as TIM or was it later over time in ME1? If so, then both the major antagonists fell from the same tree -- each getting different aspects and goals from the Reaper's: Synthesis, then Cerberus and Control respectively.

I dont recall if Saren gets his blue eyes immediately after his indirect contact with the object, but I dont think so. I'll check in a bit, though. 

I just checked, and it appears that Saren does not get his blue eyes immediately after his indirect contact with the object. 

[HellishFiend]

byne wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

I can honestly say that the implication of TIM's speech/dialog/suicide not being real is my one regret about believing IT. It's one of the most powerful dialogs in the trilogy, IMO. I guess we can still consider it "real" in the fact that it happened in Shepard's head, but I thought it was a great way to wrap up TIM's character. Who knows though, maybe the EC would bring about an even better end for TIM. 

I think keeping TIM alive and trying him for war crimes after the war is over would be better.

To quote Tali: He be a traitor to our people, held up for children as a monster in a cautionary tale.

That raises the question, can you really try someone for actions that were made while under the effects of indoctrination?

[byne]

HellishFiend wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Boradam wrote...

I never read the comics unfortunately but heard the overall sypnosis from those who had, that sounds pretty damn intense. Did Saren happen to get machine eyes at the same time as TIM or was it later over time in ME1? If so, then both the major antagonists fell from the same tree -- each getting different aspects and goals from the Reaper's: Synthesis, then Cerberus and Control respectively.

I dont recall if Saren gets his blue eyes immediately after his indirect contact with the object, but I dont think so. I'll check in a bit, though. 

I just checked, and it appears that Saren does not get his blue eyes immediately after his indirect contact with the object. 

I thought Saren got his blue eyes after talking to Shep on Virmire. Remember, he mentioned that after talking to Shep he began to have doubts, and the Reapers implanted him to 'strengthen his resolve'

[Boradam]

HellishFiend wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Boradam wrote...

I never read the comics unfortunately but heard the overall sypnosis from those who had, that sounds pretty damn intense. Did Saren happen to get machine eyes at the same time as TIM or was it later over time in ME1? If so, then both the major antagonists fell from the same tree -- each getting different aspects and goals from the Reaper's: Synthesis, then Cerberus and Control respectively.

I dont recall if Saren gets his blue eyes immediately after his indirect contact with the object, but I dont think so. I'll check in a bit, though. 

I just checked, and it appears that Saren does not get his blue eyes immediately after his indirect contact with the object. 

Ah well, that's a shame somewhat, but he was still in contact with it nonetheless and I can still think and believe he was slightly indoctrinated to a small enough, but still large enough extent when he came into contact with it for him to start on the path to joining the path of Reaperdom.

[HellishFiend]

byne wrote...


I thought Saren got his blue eyes after talking to Shep on Virmire. Remember, he mentioned that after talking to Shep he began to have doubts, and the Reapers implanted him to 'strengthen his resolve'

You might be right. I dont recall.